I keep a long version response and a shorter response to that question. I think the Bible is pretty clear in the following Scripture:
It appears that the order of things to come is one world gov't will be officially established, followed by 10 kingdoms or Regions w/ governments. After the OWG is established and the 10 regions identified, another king will rise up (the antichrist) after the 10. This one, the antichrist will subdue 3 of the 10 kings in order to firm up dominion over the entire world.
So:
1st: OWG
2nd: Heads (kings) over 10 regions
3rd: antichrist becomes head of the OWG
4th: war to consolidate power over the 10 regions (3 kings subdued)
Daniel 7:23-27
23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’
Now I'm looking in Footsteps of the Messiah because I want to see what Arnold has to say about these verses.
(v. 23) On page 35 he indicates that the fourth kingdom devours (or rules) over the whole earth, something that no previous kingdom has ever achieved. For those previous 3 kingdoms, much of the earth wasn't even known.
(v. 23-24) On page 125-127 He calls the development of the OWG the 5th birth pang leading up to Tribulation. Right now the world is divided up into the western and eastern powers. Arnold expects the eastern powers to collapse, facilitating the move to the OWG. The exact form of government or how it is achieved, isn't known, but it is for sure that it will come to pass. He says the 6th birth pang is the division of the OWG into 10 kingdoms with a ruler for each one. Beginning before Tribulation, the 10 kingdom stage will continue into the middle of Tribulation. Following the division of the world into 10 kingdoms, the antichrist will begin his rise to power. 2 Thes 2:1-3 indicates the antichrist will be revealed at some point after the 10 kingdoms are established. Arnold calls this the 7th birth pang before Tribulation. Because Tribulation begins with the signing of the seven-year covenant between Israel and the antichrist, it is necessary for the antichrist to have sufficient political power to sign such a covenant.
(v. 24) On page 244-245 Arnold seems to indicate that the antichrist's gaining political control over the world could take some time. Rev 17:12-13 is useful to estimate the chronology of when the 3 kings will be put down, and it doesn't appear to be towards the beginning of Tribulation or before Tribulation begins. Arnold says that the antichrist eventually subdues the entire world politically with the exception of Jordan.
It is possible then that the Bride of Christ could see the formation of the OWG in whatever form it ultimately takes, and the division of the world into 10 kingdoms before we are raptured, but the rapture is imminent and can happen anytime between now and prior to the official beginning of Tribulation.
Thank Tall. Wow. I really appreciate the detail given by Arnold too. I did not know that. I recall in my early years as a believer these kinds of things you mention come to my remembrance Particularly the idea as to why we had been thinking the European Union would form into a one world government alliance. I listen to Andy Woods more than any other pastor. I have enjoyed literally hundreds of his sermons. I don't always agree with him. Particularly with the mustard seed plant analogy. The Wave Offering of Pentecost actually uses leaven at Pentecost...leaven being seen as good in that context (Lev 23:10-14). Where it would seem a controversy today to perhaps permit leaven to be meaning anything good...only bad seems to be a similar shadow of thought Andy extends onto the mustard seed and birds nesting to be bad. So yeah I would have definate disagreement with Woods somewhat Frankenstien mustard tree presenting what Jesus meant by "His kingdom." I believe in part too that believers can tend to barrow pictures of the kingdom being like the sower of tares parable. So I guess it is understandable for some of that confusion. But where I do agree with Andy in part on the seals is that Ez 38 is seal 2. In that though Andy would see seal 1 as AC covenant with the many. Which to me is possible would not seem as probable because if Israel loses 2/3rds of their country very close to making a covenant with AC for protection, it would not seem that Israel would be too trusting the rest of the 3.5 years before the AC really violates the covenant kind of thing.
So in a way it must seem to yourself or to many that we have quite a ways to go yet. We have still a lot of time to perhaps watch a one world government forming. Thanks again Tall for laying that out. Because as I was in the reformed movement yeah..I believe this was my thinking too. That we will see one world government forming and then we will know. Otherwise it is pointless kind of to be concerned with how near we might be. For 25 years I never poked my head in the book of Rev becauese I believed it was too confusing and seemingly not to apply for decades to come.
I must say in being reminded of these things, I can understand a bit more empathetically why the JDF forum had come to be seemingly so focused on new world order stuff. And almost at times like they are looking for the AC to appear. Although there is nothing in the word of God that tells us the antichrist might not be seen by the church before rapture, lately I had understood that it would not make sense to me for the church to be here to see who the AC was. Because that would seem to make it difficult for him to function as honorable. But I suppose with the rap that Christians can tend to get today, that we might just be made out to be crazy or conspiracy theorists and no one listen kind of thing too perhaps.
In 2017 a thought occurred to me. There was a report out of Turkey that Erdogen was thought of among some of his people as a healing and miracle worker. Some on YouTube had a concern of him being antichrist. At that point I thought, no. The world would never consider Erdogen some powerful miracle worker. But perhaps if we rapture and huge lacking discernment set in, I suppose that anything rediculous could be believed. But then the thought set in the first time ever to me. "Lord, are we a lot closer to the tribulation than decades out? Could it be sooner? Like a lot sooner?" Prior to that moment, I never cared about end times. And although there does seem a role for Trukey to play. I would not consider Erdogen to be antichrist or that the church might even know. So that was a turning point for me in just being open to the idea of an end times that is sooner than something after my lifetime.
And so with all that brother, you have reminded me of some of I guess what I would consider the old school approaches I would have had toward end times prior to what made sense for me after studying the book of Revelation for the first time in 25 years. I did not trust commentaries at that point because there seem to be too many varying opinions to ever get a sense of how to look at Revelation or even start down the path of clearlity to some degree in reading it. So I put the commentaries away and just read it through many times noting similarities and developing a table of contenxt for myself. After a few months it seemed to become like a pop-up book like to me in how things seem to have valleys and mountains peaks in story. Of course I could be off, amen. But because of how Revelation is constructed in semi-linear fashion, it would make for me the most sense that Rev 13 as focusing on the midpoint brings the reader up to speed toward that point with AC in view. And that 17 & 18 are situated linearly in the second half portion of the triblation for effect, I believe. Which would mean that the Rev focus of Bab the Great be primarily in the second half (as we see her fall is the 7th bowl--last judgement).
Pastor JD believes that Matt 24:4,5 is about NAR producing false lies and wonders being the false light Babylonian the Great Harlot Church. And that during the age of grace leading up to the tribulation we would see all manner of their deception. A take like that might have had me in my past stance come to have 0 interest in escatology because in some ways this JDF view to me is the epitome of collapsing the 2nd half of the tribulation into the last period of the age of grace before the tribulation even starts. I understand Tall our view is not this. But more like what we (the church) had been thinking generally in the church for decades. Which 10 or 20 or 30 years ago was kind of common place. So its understandable. After reading Revelation several times though it appeared that the JDF conflation, to me, would be radically out of place. And as I sorted out why I felt that way (caring about that family forum), it became clear to me where I would find my differences. Primarily what I discovered was that I think since 17 and 18 are slated in the second half portion of Rev (chapters 10-19), that it is possible for the 10 nation confederacy to not start until after the tribulation begins.
Now that may seem to fly in the face of the AC being the 11th horn. But I believe the JDF conflation opened my eyes to something. There is an AC at the midpoint that demands worship. And that same AC prior offers covenant with the many. Same person. But only in Rev 13 is he given 42 months of rule. Which would imply that all along the first half he is perhaps in wars and struggles (who can war wit the beast). It would appear the world comes to worship him nearing the center of the tribulation. Whereas it seems a common take on Rev 13 is that AC rules for 84 months, the whole of tribulation. But we are told only the second half. In some ways in viewing this it would seem that the church in general might have let it settle in us that the AC is the power control (over one world government) for 7 years. Yet in Daniel's feet and toe of statue, we see that even at its most powerful state, iron does not mix with clay. Several of Daniel 2 commentators would see this as some areas will be governed strongly and some will have less rule. Even at its peak...one world government is spotty it would seem from that statue. Yet, it would have seemed the Christian view generically to be...something like China's AI monitoring clamp down world wide. Like some prelude to a dystopian movie of sorts. In any case, in my understanding the story formation of the AC making a covenant with the many may not clearly be the 11th horn. But that to be most reasonably recognized at the midpoint (not necessarily before).
. . . . .
So it would seem like to me after pouring myself over the book of Revelation a while back that the 10 nation confederacy comes out of the 1st half forming within the context of the tribulation, to me, and not before. That the AC subdues 3 of them during the first half of the tribulation. And that AC makes a covenant with the many at the point of the tribulation but that the world does not realize it is AC. Nor does he rule enough of the world at that point. Certainly a man of stature. But won't rule the earth for 3.5 year to come. This view would see the AC turning on the Harlot deep into the second half. It would seem fairly close to Armegeddon period. In viewing things this way, I see how much I have altered my view from where I was previously. Tall you remind me of where I was before. What I was thinking like. And Arnold too. Yeah. If I were still thinking that way, I don't believe I would be on any Christian forums because it would seem to me still so very much in the future. Like beyond my lifetime. And perhaps this is correct. I guess we will see. I believe this Fall should reveal quite a bit. If Trump becomes president and is kind of sluggish and swampy in governance, I will probably see more like Arnold, yourself, and likely much of the church. For then we might be pretty far from a tribulation shore. Thanks again Tall. For I had been looking into other directions and forgotten this perspective. Maybe in part to empathisize with those that see it so much closer. Maybe I needed to see it through their eyes for a minute. Lots to consider. Blessings.
