Considering 2024 - Is The World Ripe For Rapture?

[Goodboy]

Sometimes when we cast a really wide net with a claim it ends up being a faulty thought. The quoted might apply to some, but not for others. We humans are not simple creatures.

You may be right.

Maybe that was too wide a net, maybe I should not have said anyone, but most Christians. Just think about the very large percentage of Christians that are spending most of their time by far concerned about their personal future.

 

[1LoverofGod]

You may be right.

Maybe that was too wide a net, maybe I should not have said anyone, but most Christians. Just think about the very large percentage of Christians that are spending most of their time by far concerned about their personal future.

Absolutely. We can see the Laodecean Church is sleeping and even falling away today.
The Church who is awake and watching is a remnant Church who is identifiable by the Church of Philadelphia who Jesus commends in Revelation 3:7-13.

 

[Tall Timbers]

You may be right.

Maybe that was too wide a net, maybe I should not have said anyone, but most Christians. Just think about the very large percentage of Christians that are spending most of their time by far concerned about their personal future.

I'd apply what I said even to Christians. Many aren't expecting a Rapture. Many have little or no knowledge of end times events that are both now occurring and coming.

 

[Goodboy]

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

The Holy Spirit did not intend Daniel to understand those things pertaining to the end. We understand some of those things today as we are living in the end times. Believers during the Tribulation will understand some things that we are not able to understand today.

God gives us, through the Holy Spirit, the insight needed for our times. God has always done that for His children along the years, from Adam to the last believer that will live on this earth.

Lord, please help us to always have eyes to see and ears to hear what the Holy Spirit wants to teach us!

God bless!

 

[1LoverofGod]

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

The Holy Spirit did not intend Daniel to understand those things pertaining to the end. We understand some of those things today as we are living in the end times. Believers during the Tribulation will understand some things that we are not able to understand today.

God gives us, through the Holy Spirit, the insight needed for our times. God has always done that for His children along the years, from Adam to the last believer that will live on this earth.

Lord, please help us to always have eyes to see and ears to hear what the Holy Spirit wants to teach us!

God bless!

The angel told Daniel to seal the prophecy until the end. We're not in the end.
In reading the Olivet Discourse Jesus begins describing the birth pangs but says "these are beginnings of Sorrows, but the end is not yet".
Knowledge will continue to increase, but not only for Christians, but the Jewish people who enter the Tribulation will completely understand the prophecies and will finally call upon Messiah Jesus for His return to save them
Knowledge doesn't include knowing what God has not given us to know.
We have what is in Scripture and it's by our Faith that we believe what God has said and we don't need to know more than He has given us.
We could be Raptured this year.
But if not, does that mean God's Word is faulty? By no means. God has given us enough in His Word for us to have faith in His promises both for the Church and for His people Israel.
I don't say these things to discourage anyone.
On the contrary, I am trying to convince everyone that God's Word is Faithful and Trustworthy and we don't have to go beyond that.
The Word of God doesn't tell us we will be Raptured in 2024.
What it does say is that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us and He's coming back to take us to be where He is.
That's a promise He's keeping.

 

[TCC]

I keep a long version response and a shorter response to that question. I think the Bible is pretty clear in the following Scripture:

It appears that the order of things to come is one world gov't will be officially established, followed by 10 kingdoms or Regions w/ governments. After the OWG is established and the 10 regions identified, another king will rise up (the antichrist) after the 10. This one, the antichrist will subdue 3 of the 10 kings in order to firm up dominion over the entire world.

So:

1st: OWG
2nd: Heads (kings) over 10 regions
3rd: antichrist becomes head of the OWG
4th: war to consolidate power over the 10 regions (3 kings subdued)

Daniel 7:23-27

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

Now I'm looking in Footsteps of the Messiah because I want to see what Arnold has to say about these verses.

(v. 23) On page 35 he indicates that the fourth kingdom devours (or rules) over the whole earth, something that no previous kingdom has ever achieved. For those previous 3 kingdoms, much of the earth wasn't even known.

(v. 23-24) On page 125-127 He calls the development of the OWG the 5th birth pang leading up to Tribulation. Right now the world is divided up into the western and eastern powers. Arnold expects the eastern powers to collapse, facilitating the move to the OWG. The exact form of government or how it is achieved, isn't known, but it is for sure that it will come to pass. He says the 6th birth pang is the division of the OWG into 10 kingdoms with a ruler for each one. Beginning before Tribulation, the 10 kingdom stage will continue into the middle of Tribulation. Following the division of the world into 10 kingdoms, the antichrist will begin his rise to power. 2 Thes 2:1-3 indicates the antichrist will be revealed at some point after the 10 kingdoms are established. Arnold calls this the 7th birth pang before Tribulation. Because Tribulation begins with the signing of the seven-year covenant between Israel and the antichrist, it is necessary for the antichrist to have sufficient political power to sign such a covenant.

(v. 24) On page 244-245 Arnold seems to indicate that the antichrist's gaining political control over the world could take some time. Rev 17:12-13 is useful to estimate the chronology of when the 3 kings will be put down, and it doesn't appear to be towards the beginning of Tribulation or before Tribulation begins. Arnold says that the antichrist eventually subdues the entire world politically with the exception of Jordan.

It is possible then that the Bride of Christ could see the formation of the OWG in whatever form it ultimately takes, and the division of the world into 10 kingdoms before we are raptured, but the rapture is imminent and can happen anytime between now and prior to the official beginning of Tribulation.

Thank Tall. Wow. I really appreciate the detail given by Arnold too. I did not know that. I recall in my early years as a believer these kinds of things you mention come to my remembrance Particularly the idea as to why we had been thinking the European Union would form into a one world government alliance. I listen to Andy Woods more than any other pastor. I have enjoyed literally hundreds of his sermons. I don't always agree with him. Particularly with the mustard seed plant analogy. The Wave Offering of Pentecost actually uses leaven at Pentecost...leaven being seen as good in that context (Lev 23:10-14). Where it would seem a controversy today to perhaps permit leaven to be meaning anything good...only bad seems to be a similar shadow of thought Andy extends onto the mustard seed and birds nesting to be bad. So yeah I would have definate disagreement with Woods somewhat Frankenstien mustard tree presenting what Jesus meant by "His kingdom." I believe in part too that believers can tend to barrow pictures of the kingdom being like the sower of tares parable. So I guess it is understandable for some of that confusion. But where I do agree with Andy in part on the seals is that Ez 38 is seal 2. In that though Andy would see seal 1 as AC covenant with the many. Which to me is possible would not seem as probable because if Israel loses 2/3rds of their country very close to making a covenant with AC for protection, it would not seem that Israel would be too trusting the rest of the 3.5 years before the AC really violates the covenant kind of thing.

So in a way it must seem to yourself or to many that we have quite a ways to go yet. We have still a lot of time to perhaps watch a one world government forming. Thanks again Tall for laying that out. Because as I was in the reformed movement yeah..I believe this was my thinking too. That we will see one world government forming and then we will know. Otherwise it is pointless kind of to be concerned with how near we might be. For 25 years I never poked my head in the book of Rev becauese I believed it was too confusing and seemingly not to apply for decades to come.

I must say in being reminded of these things, I can understand a bit more empathetically why the JDF forum had come to be seemingly so focused on new world order stuff. And almost at times like they are looking for the AC to appear. Although there is nothing in the word of God that tells us the antichrist might not be seen by the church before rapture, lately I had understood that it would not make sense to me for the church to be here to see who the AC was. Because that would seem to make it difficult for him to function as honorable. But I suppose with the rap that Christians can tend to get today, that we might just be made out to be crazy or conspiracy theorists and no one listen kind of thing too perhaps.

In 2017 a thought occurred to me. There was a report out of Turkey that Erdogen was thought of among some of his people as a healing and miracle worker. Some on YouTube had a concern of him being antichrist. At that point I thought, no. The world would never consider Erdogen some powerful miracle worker. But perhaps if we rapture and huge lacking discernment set in, I suppose that anything rediculous could be believed. But then the thought set in the first time ever to me. "Lord, are we a lot closer to the tribulation than decades out? Could it be sooner? Like a lot sooner?" Prior to that moment, I never cared about end times. And although there does seem a role for Trukey to play. I would not consider Erdogen to be antichrist or that the church might even know. So that was a turning point for me in just being open to the idea of an end times that is sooner than something after my lifetime.

And so with all that brother, you have reminded me of some of I guess what I would consider the old school approaches I would have had toward end times prior to what made sense for me after studying the book of Revelation for the first time in 25 years. I did not trust commentaries at that point because there seem to be too many varying opinions to ever get a sense of how to look at Revelation or even start down the path of clearlity to some degree in reading it. So I put the commentaries away and just read it through many times noting similarities and developing a table of contenxt for myself. After a few months it seemed to become like a pop-up book like to me in how things seem to have valleys and mountains peaks in story. Of course I could be off, amen. But because of how Revelation is constructed in semi-linear fashion, it would make for me the most sense that Rev 13 as focusing on the midpoint brings the reader up to speed toward that point with AC in view. And that 17 & 18 are situated linearly in the second half portion of the triblation for effect, I believe. Which would mean that the Rev focus of Bab the Great be primarily in the second half (as we see her fall is the 7th bowl--last judgement).

Pastor JD believes that Matt 24:4,5 is about NAR producing false lies and wonders being the false light Babylonian the Great Harlot Church. And that during the age of grace leading up to the tribulation we would see all manner of their deception. A take like that might have had me in my past stance come to have 0 interest in escatology because in some ways this JDF view to me is the epitome of collapsing the 2nd half of the tribulation into the last period of the age of grace before the tribulation even starts. I understand Tall our view is not this. But more like what we (the church) had been thinking generally in the church for decades. Which 10 or 20 or 30 years ago was kind of common place. So its understandable. After reading Revelation several times though it appeared that the JDF conflation, to me, would be radically out of place. And as I sorted out why I felt that way (caring about that family forum), it became clear to me where I would find my differences. Primarily what I discovered was that I think since 17 and 18 are slated in the second half portion of Rev (chapters 10-19), that it is possible for the 10 nation confederacy to not start until after the tribulation begins.

<Mod Edit>

 

[TCC]

Except for here as we are a Pre-Trib Board. We consider that settled.

Yes I agree. I don't believe the church is in the tribulation. And this is a good point to be settled on. I think what has been more the kerfuffle I have witnessed in the tendency to bring the tribulation into the age of grace. Blessings.

 

[Eric Nicholas]

Yeah, it's isolating. There are so few that hold to the pretrib rapture. Almost none of my friends I've mentioned do. I love them lots, but they are all busy punching maggot holes in atheism. It's a worthy fight, but still. And there's just a few family members that hold to it. It's quite the hated subject, remarkably so. We truly are the few, ladies and gentlemen, and in the encroaching darkness, we seem even fewer. I'd like to see physical perspective of percentages for and against. It'd have to cause a twitch.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Yeah, it's isolating. There are so few that hold to the pretrib rapture. Almost none of my friends I've mentioned do. I love them lots, but they are all busy punching maggot holes in atheism. It's a worthy fight, but still. And there's just a few family members that hold to it. It's quite the hated subject, remarkably so. We truly are the few, ladies and gentlemen, and in the encroaching darkness, we seem even fewer. I'd like to see physical perspective of percentages for and against. It'd have to cause a twitch.

Fortunately, belief in a pre-Trib Rapture is neither a Salvation nor getting raptured issue.
There are going to be a LOT of surprised Christians, but all Christians will be there, and we'll all love it and Jesus

 

[TCC]

I'd apply what I said even to Christians. Many aren't expecting a Rapture. Many have little or no knowledge of end times events that are both now occurring and coming.

Yeah i believe most of Christianity world wide do not believe in a pretrib rapture. I believe in America, the pretrib view is higher. Probably the highest it is anywhere in the world it would seem. As we are on the note of surprises, and in light of a great reminder you had provided me in detail brother, I'll just throw this one out there. Because if things go "this" direction I will describe, i'm pretty sure it will blow the JDF mind. But in also considering it beyond that, it would seem counterintuitive perhaps to views like the well respected Dr. Arnald has laid out. And would also be well outside the Calvery Chapel Watcher Camp Convention mode, However, a few camps mightt consider (if things go a particular way) to be "aha" moments for them. Like NAR. And like amillennialist (don't see a tribulation coming but just a world increasingly under more and more church rule control until Christ returns--or prepping the land to ready His return view).

That view would be a trend of conservative sound governmental perspectives to gain exceedingly greater hold on pockets of world government (like El Salvador and Argentina--and echo reminder of what appeared to be millions in the streets of Brasil in opposition to Lula vote). This sort of thing goes with my view in general. But I admit, its a high risk complete wild card investment. One that would fly in the face of most all other eschatological trajectories. Well, I reckon I bring this up because it would seem to form a completely different structure than one world government formation as well as significantly different too than where most eschatology perspectives would be looking at. If there is anything to my sense upon it, it would seem to become quite the opposite of formal pretrib developments, I imagine pherhaps.

If true it would not be out of the picture for America to increase in power (where the majority of end time views minimize America or remove her from end time relevance all together), audit the FED, maybe even do away with income tax perhaps down the road. I paint the picture that way because I kind of want the extreme sense of it to make us most certainly say, "no. Come on. You think that?" If it does go in that direction, it might seem to migrate significantly away from more common eschatological convention. If this does occur, I would just say that it would not seem to be out of charactoristic with pretrib perspectives. Or that it might even make tribulation timing so much further out than we might have imaagined even under more 20th century eschatological views held.

When I think upon these lines, at times I am reminded of a somewhat narrowing of vision Pastor JD would seem to willingly traffick in. As we moved away from COVID craze era, JD would say things like, "We are not going back to normal." Or thinking that hoping for normal is being temporaly minded in an age designed to provide thoughts more consistent with the after life. And while on that wave of thought, it would seem those ideas transitioned further into just being ready for the rapture and not putting much on planning for a future here. In addition, Macarthur had been known to recently say, "America is being judged, its not coming back, the church loses down here." Strongly implying a similar encouragement to stop thinking about a hopeful future here, but focus more on eternal values. Which in and of themselves have merit. But it would just seem to be quite the contrary contrast provided if the above notion of conservative values at this time becomes stronger, not weaker. As well as a potential move away from New World Order grips upon the systems of the world.

When I express this potential it is often understood I might be thinking these things because I would want to have more time down here and see life become 'normal" again. Kind of like I guess similar to the kinds of arguments against pretrib that say, "Pretribbers just don't want to suffer and want an easy out. A Western convenience notion. Nothing more." So we kind of see a collection of this sort of thing: 1) We are not returning to normal, 2) Folks its over as America is under judgement, 3) Pretribbers just want ease and creaturely comfort. If the direction the world goes/becomes more freedom and prosperity like, it would seem wildly inconsistent with pretrib eschatology. But just to note somewhat along the way, it does appear that things have gravitated more toward normal since COVID than more toward further encroachments upon liberties. At least in generic contrast. Yet there seems to be an interest in the eschat world to affirm how bad things have to get as a means of perhaps coming along our faith in what God said it would be like (or at least in as far as we might understand how that should be looking). There does seem to be a measure of that sort of thinking, though.

So if the socio-political direction leans in the above mentioned direction, and away from eschatologically "proper" perspective, I would suggest it would not indicate historical moments that infer being much more further away from a tribulation period. For what that might be worth. I guess we will see. Blessings.

 

[Andy C]

Fortunately, belief in a pre-Trib Rapture is neither a Salvation nor getting raptured issue.
There are going to be a LOT of surprised Christians, but all Christians will be there, and we'll all love it and Jesus

Amen sister. When the call comes for us to be Home, what an outstanding and surprised feeling it will be for those who did not believe in a pre trib rapture. However, Im sure many of us will also find out things we were wrong about, but then again, what will it matter once we are with Him for eternity.

 

[Cheeky200386]

Amen sister. When the call comes for us to be Home, what an outstanding and surprised feeling it will be for those who did not believe in a pre trib rapture. However, Im sure many of us will also find out things we were wrong about, but then again, what will it matter once we are with Him for eternity.

Would an “I told you so” be out of the question post rapture?

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Would an “I told you so” be out of the question post rapture?

Lol maybe the Lord himself might do a gentle i told you so

 

[Andy C]

We can always hope a prophet will post on here with the time and date……..

Or, we can go about living our life for Him and hope He comes calling soon!

 

[Amethyst]

We can always hope a prophet will post on here with the time and date……..

Or, we can go about living our life for Him and hope He comes calling soon!

If we went by "feelings" I feel like it's not going to happen this year. I "feel" like we are going to have to go through this bizarre election. Watch all of it happen, etc.
I do "hope" it's in the next few short years though.

 

[Andy C]

If we went by "feelings" I feel like it's not going to happen this year. I "feel" like we are going to have to go through this bizarre election. Watch all of it happen, etc.
I do "hope" it's in the next few short years though.

Yes, feelings dont mean much in regards to prophecy.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

If we went by "feelings" I feel like it's not going to happen this year. I "feel" like we are going to have to go through this bizarre election. Watch all of it happen, etc.
I do "hope" it's in the next few short years though.

Im with you, by feelings, it feels like it's just puzzle moving and stage setting before it all started

 

[1LoverofGod]

God's timing is Perfect.
When we are on our way up, we won't have a care about how long a wait we've had, because we'll be on our way to Eternity

 

[Andy C]

God's timing is Perfect.
When we are on our way up, we won't have a care about how long a wait we've had, because we'll be on our way to Eternity

Amen sister.

Rapture today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, next decade, regardless when, or death prior, the eternal destiny will be reached.

It’s always interesting speculating on the timing, but after all the educated chatter, its an unknown and unsigned event. However, today would be a great day! One can only hope!

 

[1LoverofGod]

Amen sister.

Rapture today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, next decade, regardless when, or death prior, the eternal destiny will be reached.

It’s always interesting speculating on the timing, but after all the educated chatter, its an unknown and unsigned event. However, today would be a great day! One can only hope!

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"
Hebrews 11:1

"For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?"
Romans 8:24