Why literal and not signified as an unknown non revealed?
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THE RAPTURE, A SECRET JESUS COULDN’T REVEAL
- Thread starter Andy C
- Start date
Because Revelation 20 specifically speaks of a thousand year reign. We should always take scripture literally except where it is clearly figurative.
Greg
Well-known
Besides what mattfivefour said, which I 100 percent agree with, here's my reasoning:
John 14:1-4 nkjv
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
Where is He preparing a place? In Heaven. Where will Jesus be during the millennium? On Earth. To my simple way of thinking, that makes this a pretrib Rapture passage. If you don't believe in a literal millennium, it could refer to any time frame.
I would offer .
Christ as the Holy Father not seen began preparing a place as the result of the lamb slain from the foundation. The six days he did work
In that way establishing the law of the two witnesses. At the witness of one no judgment can be made.
Therefore, creating two beginnings (when they were created,)
Genesis 2"4; These are the generations (plural) of the heavens and of the earth when they(plural) were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
The witness of two. What I would call the dynamic dual.
Jesus as the Son of man (temporal dying mankind) working with empowered by Emanuel.
Elias continuing the preparing the gospel, the straight path
Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight
I'm sorry, brother, but you have lost me. Could you please repeat your thought process in a simpler form?
The preparing a place began in Genesis. The lamb of God slain, the 6 days the Holy Father did work.
The place the third heaven the unseen eternal realm
Thank you for trying, but I'm still struggling to understand. I don't mean to be offensive, but may I ask if English is your second language?
Matthew6:33
Set your face like flint - Isaiah 50:7
[Mat 24:1-51 NASB95]
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what [will be] the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for [those things] must take place, but [that] is not yet the end.
7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8 "But all these things are [merely] the beginning of birth pangs.
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There [He is,]' do not believe [him.]
24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, [or,] 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe [them.]
27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, at the door.
34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
41 "Two women [will be] grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think [He will.]
45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at
the proper time?
46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect [him] and at an hour which he does not know,
51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Personally I think that Matthew 24 is speaking to the Jews about The Day of The LORD. The whole section of scripture is full of Jewish language/context which I tried to highlight some that stood out to me on a brief reading. Son of Man was a term used in Daniel for the coming Messiah. I don't believe the rapture is in here at all. I think the only time Jesus "officially" hints at the rapture is in the upper room discourse where Jesus talks about "preparing a place for us" and "coming back to bring us to Him." Also, the Church did not exist at this point and the disciples had no clue what it even was. The Jews will be God's witnesses during the Tribulation.
I think that @Hol's post #36 where she quotes Dr. John Walvoord makes more sense to me. The language that seems to be speaking of the rapture is really speaking of the coming judgement for those in the tribulation that are not seeking to get right with God despite all of the signs around them and time running out.
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what [will be] the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for [those things] must take place, but [that] is not yet the end.
7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8 "But all these things are [merely] the beginning of birth pangs.
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There [He is,]' do not believe [him.]
24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, [or,] 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe [them.]
27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, at the door.
34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
41 "Two women [will be] grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think [He will.]
45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at
the proper time?
46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect [him] and at an hour which he does not know,
51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Personally I think that Matthew 24 is speaking to the Jews about The Day of The LORD. The whole section of scripture is full of Jewish language/context which I tried to highlight some that stood out to me on a brief reading. Son of Man was a term used in Daniel for the coming Messiah. I don't believe the rapture is in here at all. I think the only time Jesus "officially" hints at the rapture is in the upper room discourse where Jesus talks about "preparing a place for us" and "coming back to bring us to Him." Also, the Church did not exist at this point and the disciples had no clue what it even was. The Jews will be God's witnesses during the Tribulation.
I think that @Hol's post #36 where she quotes Dr. John Walvoord makes more sense to me. The language that seems to be speaking of the rapture is really speaking of the coming judgement for those in the tribulation that are not seeking to get right with God despite all of the signs around them and time running out.
1LoverofGod
Well-known
Amen!
I like how Lee Brainard lays it out on one of his recent messages on his Telegram channel .....
"If Jesus comes this year, I'll be happy.
If Jesus comes next year, I'll be happy.
If Jesus comes a few years down the road, I'll be happy.
If Jesus comes much farther away than we anticipate (exposing the failures of our reckonings), I'll be happy.
My hope is in the fact of the rapture before the tribulation, not its timing."
Soothkeep
If Jesus comes this year, I'll be happy. If Jesus comes next year, I'll be happy. If Jesus comes a few years down the road, I'll be happy. If Jesus comes much farther away than we anticipate (exposing the failures of our reckonings), I'll be happy. My hope is in the fact of the rapture...
t.me
dwb
Well-known
I have to believe that since Paul's teachings were a mystery, never before revealed information, which includes the rapture, that the date and the event would also not have been previously revealed. "Behold, I show you a mystery"... . This is new information revealed to Paul from the resurrected Christ, and not an addendum to previous content. But, what do I know, I'm just a grease monkey/farmer with no theological training. I just love studying the Bible.
I know one thing is true, that people interpret, or are inspired by the Holy Spirit differently. Two can read the same thing and come to different conclusions.
I know one thing is true, that people interpret, or are inspired by the Holy Spirit differently. Two can read the same thing and come to different conclusions.
Hol
Well-known
It’s helpful too!
My understanding of Apostle Paul unveiling God’s plan for a church is that it includes gentiles and is an age of grace—no longer the Mosaic law and sacrifices.
Imagine the disciples with Jesus during the Last Supper when He told them He would come back to earth and get them so they could live in Heaven! That had to be jaw dropping. Israel knew that Messiah was to come and reign on earth. What they didn’t know was what might happen IF they rejected their own Messish.
Lets hope that mystery is soon to happen.
Agree, once the fullness of Gentiles comes in…….up we go
GLC11
Well-known
Thank you for posting this with all this scripture references. What an interesting topic overall to ponder!
So, on the flip side, are we saying that the church “can” know the day and hour because of some information not put together, but that is in the Bible?
No, because even if the phrase "not know the day and the hour" refers to the Feast of Trumpets, we still would not know the day and the hour because there can be no advance certainty as to the day or hour it will begin. Plus as far as I can determine, there is no way to know in what year it will occur.
Many decades ago I came out of teen years and into early adulthood convinced that we would know it is VERY close, just not the definite day/hour. Lots of things being said about this. We'll know. We will not know. We'll know a few days or week ahead. Some even suggest the rapture plays out over a period of observable time for those waiting to go up and able to see those coming down and rising out of the graves first. Who knows?
It would be great if we had some warning just before the rapture happens but I cant find any scripture that states the church will receive any such warning.
