Exactly. And it is on this and verses like this that our entire hope rests. Our salvation is a done deal. And our adoption is part of that salvation. He who began this good work in us will complete it.
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ADOPTION (AT THE RAPTURE): THE MOST IMPORTANT UNDER-TAUGHT DOCTRINE IN THE CHURCH
- Thread starter PaidInFull
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And he uses anything and everything --including theology-- to do so.
This is the problem with theology. At its fundamental level, theology is simply a condensation of the concepts of the Bible, written out to simplify the understanding of God , His will, and our faith. Unfortunately, man's brain and nature being what it is, combined with the difficulties of understanding eternity and eternal things from a temporal standpoint, theology has become a rabbit hole that leads into interminable other rabbit holes that result in total confusion unless one is willing to follow one particular theologian's (or group of theologians') conclusions. The internet is filled with the writings of the adherents of one view of theology dismantling the beliefs of those who hold to different views of theology. All of them in their various theological camps are extremely learned, erudite, and highly intelligent. And completely opposed to one another. Of them it can be truly said what Festus said to Paul (Acts 26:24) "You are insane! Your great learning is driving you to madness!"
The fact is that while there are many hidden things about God, things He has not revealed to us directly, there is nothing He has withheld from us that are to be divined by those intelligent enough to divine them. There is no secret knowledge that we need to attain to in order to be saved. Salvation is for those humble enough to simply accept the exceedingly great but oh-so-simple gift of God. I have met too many people (including one of my own family who was a passionate preacher of the gospel but is now a vocal atheist) whose faith was destroyed by the theological depths of seminary.
My experience has been that the intellectual studies of theology are often not examples of a humble spirit in search of knowing its God in a deeper way, but of the puffed up minds of men exalting themselves in earthly pride of study and comprehension, stretching their minds and ever greater that's for refinement of their beliefs. Am I therefore rejecting the idea of theology? Not at all! I believe it is critical that we all come to know God as He is, as best we can. But I also believe that that knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit working in us as we humbly surrender ourselves to His will in our lives, reading His Word, trying to obey Him each day, surrendering our will to Him each day (which is dying to self daily), and trusting Him with our entire present and future ... into eternity.
And no matter the goal, there is no practice of theology that is worth shaking that simplicity in a soul. I would love to convince an enemy of the pre-trib position that he is wrong and the pre-tributation Rapture is correct. But if in pursuit of my goal I run the risk of shaking the simple faith of another Christian or causing a non-believer to shy away from the gospel, I will abandon my goal. I will not intentionally harm someone for whom Christ died. Nothing that could benefit me is worth harming another. And, quite frankly, it does not matter one bit in the eternal scheme of things whether someone believes in the pre-trib position or not: if they are a true believer in Jesus Christ, then they're going to go in the Rapture when it happens, regardless of the timing. Imagine their shock when they are going up and it's pre-trib!
Anyway, if Hugh wishes to continue this thread, he is quite welcome to. I would like to see the conclusion to which he is building. But, unlike bible school or seminary where students are taught to accept teaching being built from the ground up, I think he's going to have to do it without receiving agreement from members here on each step as he builds his case. It is clear that the consensus here is that he should build his case to its culmination and then it is at that point that people will decide whether it is biblical in their view and whether it is helpful to their faith.
Everlasting Life
By grace, through faith in Jesus
Sweet Rose, I believe this passage is saying that our secure salvation of which is sourced in Christ is nearer than when we first believed because: Jesus is coming to take us to the Father's house. This was the Apostle Paul's way of expressing that Jesus was close at hand to gather his beloved bride. But, that could easily be confused.....without the rest of scripture and context to give further understanding.
Paul often went in and out of ways of expression to communicate things like this, which is why Peter wrote in one of his letters about how it can be hard to understand Paul's writings sometimes, I think because of things like this.
Yes, and that secured, anchored hope will be fully realized in it's last stage when we have our new bodies and with Jesus Christ.
It's like the monarch butterfly that starts off as a caterpillar, then moves into the stage of the chrysalis and then finally the adult butterfly. In all it's phases or stages it's one butterfly with the full realization of it being a butterfly emerging in it's new body as an adult butterfly.
When we look at that little caterpillar we know it's a butterfly and see it as such just as God looks upon us as belonging to Christ and the full realization of this will be with our new bodies in the resurrection. Nothing in this process ever, ever, ever diminishes our security of salvation.
Eric Nicholas
The Transaction's Flute.
Ding ding ding! And that right there is where so much confusion comes from. It's so frustrating watch legions of believers do this. They cut and paste particular parts out of Scripture to buttress a point or already held belief or worse, to cobble their own story out of it and say "See! Look what God's Word says!". Welcome to the world of false religions, cults, and confusion brought to you by this very method. I could take 12 verses out of any three random books of Scripture and could form a convincing cult before five suns go down.. But, that could easily be confused.....without the rest of scripture and context to give further understanding.
Everlasting Life
By grace, through faith in Jesus
I believe that PaidInFull is saying that we have a secure adoption (like what I'm pointing out with salvation) and this also has an unfolding future stage, or phase of which we can have continued anchored hope in as well. I think he's talking about receiving our future full rights as adopted children of God (see Romans 8 below).
It's one adoption and with the aspect of a future, full realization to this.
In God's eyes, we are adopted with the full realization or privileges of this being unfolded to us in time. But, this unfolding never diminishes the security that we are adopted by God through faith in Jesus.
A rudimentary word picture here could be a trust fund set up for someone but with the full acquisition of those funds being doled out later in time. The trust fund undeniably belongs to the person, there's no doubt in this but there is a time frame and process for this fund to be fully realized by the person to whom that fund is designated to. So, that person hopes for the future time when what's promised to them to unfold into their lives. They receive their promised, full rights of that designated to them trust fund.
I think Romans 8 is alluding to this. The NLT says it more clearly:
Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.
But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.
18-23
ETA and I believe he's saying that those full rights are assured to us now and protected in the future connected to a legal sense in a protective manner of the Bride of Christ. Somehow this future giving of our full rights as adopted children ties into the Rapture and it's timing...this is what I'm looking forward to (hopefully ?) read more of what PaidInFull is getting to.
It's one adoption and with the aspect of a future, full realization to this.
In God's eyes, we are adopted with the full realization or privileges of this being unfolded to us in time. But, this unfolding never diminishes the security that we are adopted by God through faith in Jesus.
A rudimentary word picture here could be a trust fund set up for someone but with the full acquisition of those funds being doled out later in time. The trust fund undeniably belongs to the person, there's no doubt in this but there is a time frame and process for this fund to be fully realized by the person to whom that fund is designated to. So, that person hopes for the future time when what's promised to them to unfold into their lives. They receive their promised, full rights of that designated to them trust fund.
I think Romans 8 is alluding to this. The NLT says it more clearly:
Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.
But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.
18-23
ETA and I believe he's saying that those full rights are assured to us now and protected in the future connected to a legal sense in a protective manner of the Bride of Christ. Somehow this future giving of our full rights as adopted children ties into the Rapture and it's timing...this is what I'm looking forward to (hopefully ?) read more of what PaidInFull is getting to.
I guess my post about why keep this thread was me not correctly reading the room. Not the first time for me…And he uses anything and everything --including theology-- to do so.
This is the problem with theology. At its fundamental level, theology is simply a condensation of the concepts of the Bible, written out to simplify the understanding of God , His will, and our faith. Unfortunately, man's brain and nature being what it is, combined with the difficulties of understanding eternity and eternal things from a temporal standpoint, theology has become a rabbit hole that leads into interminable other rabbit holes that result in total confusion unless one is willing to follow one particular theologian's (or group of theologians') conclusions. The internet is filled with the writings of the adherents of one view of theology dismantling the beliefs of those who hold to different views of theology. All of them in their various theological camps are extremely learned, erudite, and highly intelligent. And completely opposed to one another. Of them it can be truly said what Festus said to Paul (Acts 26:24) "You are insane! Your great learning is driving you to madness!"
The fact is that while there are many hidden things about God, things He has not revealed to us directly, there is nothing He has withheld from us that are to be divined by those intelligent enough to divine them. There is no secret knowledge that we need to attain to in order to be saved. Salvation is for those humble enough to simply accept the exceedingly great but oh-so-simple gift of God. I have met too many people (including one of my own family who was a passionate preacher of the gospel but is now a vocal atheist) whose faith was destroyed by the theological depths of seminary. My experience has been that the intellectual studies of theology are often not examples of a humble spirit in search of knowing its God in a deeper way, but of the puffed up minds of men exalting themselves in earthly pride of study and comprehension, stretching their minds and ever greater that's for refinement of their beliefs. Am I therefore rejecting the idea of theology? Not at all! I believe it is critical that we all come to know God as He is, as best we can. But I also believe that that knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit working in us as we humbly surrender ourselves to His will in our lives, reading His Word, trying to obey Him each day, surrendering our will to Him each day (which is dying to self daily), and trusting Him with our entire present and future ... into eternity.
And no matter the goal, there is no practice of theology that is worth shaking that simplicity in a soul. I would love to convince an enemy of the pre-trib position that he is wrong and the pre-tributation Rapture is correct. But if in pursuit of my goal I run the risk of shaking the simple faith of another Christian or causing a non-believer to shy away from the gospel, I will abandon my goal. I will not intentionally harm someone for whom Christ died. Nothing that could benefit me is worth harming another. And, quite frankly, it does not matter one bit in the eternal scheme of things whether someone believes in the pre-trib position or not: if they are a true believer in Jesus Christ, then they're going to go in the Rapture when it happens, regardless of the timing. Imagine their shock when they are going up and it's pre-trib!
Anyway, if Hugh wishes to continue this thread, he is quite welcome to. I would like to see the conclusion to which he is building. But, unlike bible school or seminary where students are taught to accept teaching being built from the ground up, I think he's going to have to do it without receiving agreement from members here on each step as he builds his case. It is clear that the consensus here is that he should build his case to its culmination and then it is at that point that people will decide whether it is biblical in their view and whether it is helpful to their faith.
1LoverofGod
Well-known
AmenSweet Rose, I believe this passage is saying that our secure salvation of which is sourced in Christ is nearer than when we first believed because: Jesus is coming to take us to the Father's house. This was the Apostle Paul's way of expressing that Jesus was close at hand to gather his beloved bride. But, that could easily be confused.....without the rest of scripture and context to give further understanding.
Paul often went in and out of ways of expression to communicate things like this, which is why Peter wrote in one of his letters about how it can be hard to understand Paul's writings sometimes, I think because of things like this.
Yes, and that secured, anchored hope will be fully realized in it's last stage when we have our new bodies and with Jesus Christ.
It's like the monarch butterfly that starts off as a caterpillar, then moves into the stage of the chrysalis and then finally the adult butterfly. In all it's phases or stages it's one butterfly with the full realization of it being a butterfly emerging in it's new body as an adult butterfly.
When we look at that little caterpillar we know it's a butterfly and see it as such just as God looks upon us as belonging to Christ and the full realization of this will be with our new bodies in the resurrection. Nothing in this process ever, ever, ever diminishes our security of salvation.
1LoverofGod
Well-known
I was thrown off with the "court" appearance that a Raptured believer must be presented with to justify our adoption and release us from a "hold" the devil has on us.
I believe Jesus represented us already in the case of any hold satan may have had on us, and Hebrews 4 clearly points out that Jesus is our Advocate and High Priest because HE paid the penalty for our sins and released us from bondage to sin, so Satan has no hold on us, and he can accuse us day and night and won't get anywhere with God with his accusations because Jesus has paid for our sins once for All time.
I believe Jesus represented us already in the case of any hold satan may have had on us, and Hebrews 4 clearly points out that Jesus is our Advocate and High Priest because HE paid the penalty for our sins and released us from bondage to sin, so Satan has no hold on us, and he can accuse us day and night and won't get anywhere with God with his accusations because Jesus has paid for our sins once for All time.
1LoverofGod
Well-known
The foundation of our faith is in The Gospel. Other theology differs in interpretation, but it's The Gospel that leads Jesus' Sheep to Salvation that produces our faith and Hope for what This Salvation brings us and that is Eternal Life with our Lord Jesus. We Are Justified by our Faith AloneAnd he uses anything and everything --including theology-- to do so.
This is the problem with theology. At its fundamental level, theology is simply a condensation of the concepts of the Bible, written out to simplify the understanding of God , His will, and our faith. Unfortunately, man's brain and nature being what it is, combined with the difficulties of understanding eternity and eternal things from a temporal standpoint, theology has become a rabbit hole that leads into interminable other rabbit holes that result in total confusion unless one is willing to follow one particular theologian's (or group of theologians') conclusions. The internet is filled with the writings of the adherents of one view of theology dismantling the beliefs of those who hold to different views of theology. All of them in their various theological camps are extremely learned, erudite, and highly intelligent. And completely opposed to one another. Of them it can be truly said what Festus said to Paul (Acts 26:24) "You are insane! Your great learning is driving you to madness!"
The fact is that while there are many hidden things about God, things He has not revealed to us directly, there is nothing He has withheld from us that are to be divined by those intelligent enough to divine them. There is no secret knowledge that we need to attain to in order to be saved. Salvation is for those humble enough to simply accept the exceedingly great but oh-so-simple gift of God. I have met too many people (including one of my own family who was a passionate preacher of the gospel but is now a vocal atheist) whose faith was destroyed by the theological depths of seminary.
My experience has been that the intellectual studies of theology are often not examples of a humble spirit in search of knowing its God in a deeper way, but of the puffed up minds of men exalting themselves in earthly pride of study and comprehension, stretching their minds and ever greater that's for refinement of their beliefs. Am I therefore rejecting the idea of theology? Not at all! I believe it is critical that we all come to know God as He is, as best we can. But I also believe that that knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit working in us as we humbly surrender ourselves to His will in our lives, reading His Word, trying to obey Him each day, surrendering our will to Him each day (which is dying to self daily), and trusting Him with our entire present and future ... into eternity.
And no matter the goal, there is no practice of theology that is worth shaking that simplicity in a soul. I would love to convince an enemy of the pre-trib position that he is wrong and the pre-tributation Rapture is correct. But if in pursuit of my goal I run the risk of shaking the simple faith of another Christian or causing a non-believer to shy away from the gospel, I will abandon my goal. I will not intentionally harm someone for whom Christ died. Nothing that could benefit me is worth harming another. And, quite frankly, it does not matter one bit in the eternal scheme of things whether someone believes in the pre-trib position or not: if they are a true believer in Jesus Christ, then they're going to go in the Rapture when it happens, regardless of the timing. Imagine their shock when they are going up and it's pre-trib!
Anyway, if Hugh wishes to continue this thread, he is quite welcome to. I would like to see the conclusion to which he is building. But, unlike bible school or seminary where students are taught to accept teaching being built from the ground up, I think he's going to have to do it without receiving agreement from members here on each step as he builds his case. It is clear that the consensus here is that he should build his case to its culmination and then it is at that point that people will decide whether it is biblical in their view and whether it is helpful to their faith.
Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints
Jude 3
Not necessarily, brother. My reason for keeping this thread open was that I trust Hugh and I want to learn what he has to offer. But we seem to have hit an impasse in that he doesn't feel he can make his point without having us agree with all the groundwork ahead of time, which is contrary to the way I learn things. And, apparently, contrary to the way others here learn things, too. Personally, I like to hear a teaching or a conclusion and then find out how the person arrived at that... in other words, the reasons for the belief. To deliver a number of subsidiary points and get agreement along the way until the student arrives at that point where the conclusion is inescapable from the points already adduced is one way of teaching. It's just not the way I learn.I guess my post about why keep this thread was me not correctly reading the room. Not the first time for me…
Everlasting Life
By grace, through faith in Jesus
I can see where you would be thrown off here.
I believe the focus is not that the Bride has no security or justification to be with God (she does, overwhelmingly so because of Jesus and her faith in Him) but rather satan has no security or justification to be in heaven, that where the devil attempts, through his accusations, to make some sort of legal stance to keep the Bride out of heaven, it's the devil instead that gets booted out of heaven, because of the Bride's secure legal position, based on Jesus' work and her faith in Him. The Bride's position is never in jeopardy (and I believe PaidInFull is saying this).At some point the devil will have to be thrown out of Heaven but God in His perfection and justice will do that on a righteous basis rather than a frivolous "I'm tired of listening to your complaints" decision (although, I'll bet God is tired of listening to the accusations).
Think of it this way, God has a legal standing to keep the Bride securely with Him and boot satan outta there (and this has nothing to do with security of salvation, that's not the issue at all here)! So, the Bride will witness this legally derived decision to kick satan out and thus see the continued fruits of her secure standing with God, her legal position in Christ (I think this is also tied in with the Bride receiving her full rights as God's adopted children). This is all done in a continued or progressive legal aspect based on what Jesus has done on the cross for His Bride. This is a resounding victory moment here, a resulting consequence of the Bride's victory in Jesus through faith in Jesus (Revelation 12 below touches on this).
......This is the victory that has conquered the world: our faith. And who is the one who conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:4-5
The victor: I will give him the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I also won the victory and sat down with My Father on His throne. Revelation 3:21
Exactly right, so based on this legal aspect of what Jesus did on the cross we read about what will happen when satan is not allowed to accuse the Bride day and night anymore and the Bride is firmly in her positional place, reserved for her long ago, in heaven with Jesus Christ:
So the great dragon was thrown out—the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the one who deceives the whole world. He was thrown to earth, and his angels with him.
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
The salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God
and the authority of His Messiah
have now come,
because the accuser of our brothers
has been thrown out:
the one who accuses them
before our God day and night.
They conquered him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony,
for they did not love their lives
in the face of death.
Therefore rejoice, you heavens,
and you who dwell in them!
Woe to the earth and the sea,
for the Devil has come down to you
with great fury,
because he knows he has a short time.
Rev 12:9-12
1LoverofGod
Well-known
I get what you are saying. Obviously those who are not in Christ are not children of God.
The Pope is a False Teacher, a heretic. Most of us here know a false teacher when we hear one because The Holy Spirit in us gives us discernment to identify a false teacher.
There's a lot being said in this thread that makes sense, but when so much information is put out there at once it begins to get confusing to sort out what goes with what in the different topics addressed at once.
I have to say I don't use many commentaries for my understanding of scripture as I have noted there's always going to be different views on certain interpretation of scripture.
Don't let skepticism discourage you from finishing your attempt to get your message across.
We're all given a conscience to decide to agree to disagree on some things that aren't making a clear argument.
You do make some clarity that harmonizes with what most of us here believe, however for some, like myself, certain messages conveyed isn't clear for me to agree with.
I encourage you to not be discouraged by skepticism, every evangelist is going to face it at some time or another but we don't give up when we speak Truth from God's Word that is The Authority.
Please continue. A teaching from a believer is Spirit Led and The Spirit doesn't get intimidated by skepticism.
I respect your effort to share.
Andiamo
Hanging on to the Throne
I think he was just referring to people who did change their minds. I think maybe that is why he started this thread - so that we don’t end up like them.
Andiamo
Hanging on to the Throne
Oh, I could learn things that way, but with the Word of God, in this day and age, I just can’t allow myself to. I think as Bereans in 2024 we are all slightly on the side of defensive, and rightfully so, because we don’t want to invest ourselves into being taught for weeks just to be taken to falsehood at the end. Not saying that Hugh is doing that, not at all. In fact, I want to fully trust him, because you do, Adrian. But my posture remains slightly defensive, as it should be, in my opinion. Nuh-uh. I have “been there, done that” before I knew any better, and I’m not doing it again. Even with my own pastor here where I live.
Andiamo
Hanging on to the Throne
I really think our brother in the Philippines started this thread to encourage us and to give us a slam-dunk argument in response to post-tribbers and pre-wrathers. I would love to know what that is.
And when it comes to the three tenses of salvation and apparently, adoption, I think it’s one of those things, like the Trinity, that we will never be able to wrap our brains around. The concept that something is already complete, yet it is still coming to completion. Only our infinite God outside of time and space can do that. I think I am willing to rest on that and continue on with this thread.
It would help if the posts were shorter.
And when it comes to the three tenses of salvation and apparently, adoption, I think it’s one of those things, like the Trinity, that we will never be able to wrap our brains around. The concept that something is already complete, yet it is still coming to completion. Only our infinite God outside of time and space can do that. I think I am willing to rest on that and continue on with this thread.
It would help if the posts were shorter.
Andiamo
Hanging on to the Throne
Me too, I was just thinking about this today. And it’s nice to not see posts removed or the entire thread locked or removed.
Andiamo
Hanging on to the Throne
And I think that, rightfully so, we especially are protective when it comes to our identity in Christ, and our security in God.
I mean, we’re all just white-knuckling it here on this rotten earth at this point. Hanging on to who we are in Him, and who He is.
It touches a soft spot. That’s why God gives us the armor.
I mean, we’re all just white-knuckling it here on this rotten earth at this point. Hanging on to who we are in Him, and who He is.
It touches a soft spot. That’s why God gives us the armor.
Andiamo
Hanging on to the Throne
That is horrible!!!
Wow, that is profound. I’m going to remember this.
1LoverofGod
Well-known
Father God I lift up our brother Hugh to You in petition in his behalf to ask please that You encourage him and let him know that we love him as our brother in Christ and because we are One Body in Christ, nothing can separate us from Your Love that is in Christ Jesus, and that Love is in us because Jesus is in us, and we love one another as Jesus taught us.
Lord we don't understand everything. How can we, as we are all fallen and depend on You through The Holy Spirit to help us understand.
We don't always pay attention to what The Spirit is telling us, so sometimes we need to stay quiet and listen.
I trust Lord that You will Never permit us to be mislead, so please Father, if You are using our brother to bless us through Your Word, then please Lord speak to our brother's heart to be just a little more patient with us, as You use him to speak to us and share what blessing You are wanting to gift us with, in Jesus name I pray
Lord we don't understand everything. How can we, as we are all fallen and depend on You through The Holy Spirit to help us understand.
We don't always pay attention to what The Spirit is telling us, so sometimes we need to stay quiet and listen.
I trust Lord that You will Never permit us to be mislead, so please Father, if You are using our brother to bless us through Your Word, then please Lord speak to our brother's heart to be just a little more patient with us, as You use him to speak to us and share what blessing You are wanting to gift us with, in Jesus name I pray
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