Exactly. And it is on this and verses like this that our entire hope rests. Our salvation is a done deal. And our adoption is part of that salvation. He who began this good work in us will complete it.
It seems that no matter how many times I repeat our adoption and salvation is settled and beyond question, I am still being contested on this point. That is why I am closing this thread as I can't get beyond the obvious to what every Bible dictionary and Encyclopedia states that HOPE is for what is to happen in the future.
If we do a Word Study on Hope, to understand what we are in hope for, then it ought to become very clear.
The three states of salvation is not something that began with me, there are endless theological papers teaching and explaining this.
We were saved before the world began. God foreknew us then, He knew us in the womb and set out our days and He called us and gave us to Jesus when we reached that time in life when it dawned on us that we needed a Savior. But that calling was before the world began, and yet is was yet to come and be experienced by each of us. We are all in agreement in these two states, one past and one present.
On the other hand we are raised and seated with Christ in heavenly places. In God's eyes, just as we were saved in His eyes before we were born, we are already seated on God's throne with Him above all the angels.
The reality of our experience of salvation hadn't come into line with God's declaration before the world began until many years after our birth. Likewise on the other hand the reality of sitting on God's throne, not in a figurative sense but in reality, is something we are in a state of hope for in the future. What does HOPE do? It declares it as fact now because we believe in God's promises.
How do we grasp this? First of all to examine the Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias to understand this is not some cult thinking, it is the core of Christianity.
I tried that - it didn't work here.
My hope was that some of the theological papers I linked to would be read and studied and thought upon so no one here could ever question if we are secure in our salvation here and now. How can it be any other way if we were saved and called to good works before the world began? Can we change the course of God's calling and election when we are born? If we can, then God failed in His claim we were saved before the world began.
When I can't even get beyond our foundation to understand what HOPE means... that it is future as we well as past and present, and that the doctrines of the faith are like this, then I am trying to force feed meat to milk drinkers.
Let's take a very simple example that we all agree on. Does Jesus already have all power and authority and has His salvation already come?
Of course it has, for if it hasn’t then we are not saved here and now. If you are ever involved in the deliverance ministry, you’ll know that demons know that Jesus has all power and authority here on earth right now. You’ll also see them resist and attempt to argue and put up a physical protest. I remember one guy passed out when I was addressing the demon of homosexuality. I told it I knew it could hear every word I was saying and forcefully commanded it to come out right now in Jesus Name. He was sitting on an large armchair and suddenly he woke up, the demon threw him on the floor and tried to choke him to death. Of course it couldn’t for it had to obey, but he went red, then dark red, then blue before it suddenly left and immediately his whole countenance changed from how we had always know him.
Soon the fallen angels are going to kicked out of heaven and they don’t want to go. When they are kicked out of heaven they know there is no legal right to argue their case in heaven and resist the plan of God. It takes war to remove them.
So we are all agreed that the salvation and power and kingdom of God and the authority of His Christ is a present reality we experience personally and can see in spiritual warfare here and now. We can even prove it by answered prayer.
Let’s consider the complete spiritual legal situation we are in that appears to contradict that, unless we understand the three tenses.
We all agree that the devil is defeated and disarmed, was paraded in humiliation in the Victor’s parade in heaven, and that Jesus alone has the keys of death and hell. We agree that the blood of Jesus washes us clean from sin and that we are made the righteousness of God in Christ, and this was true immediately Jesus presented Himself to the Father in heaven and His blood was on the mercy seat and has been true for 2000 years.
How come then if we already see the evidences of the power and authority and salvation of God that these two things happen in heaven…
Today the devil denies the efficacy of the blood and cross and promises of God and instead accuses the church day and night before God? How can the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit allow such an outrageous offense to continue for 1 minute let alone 2,000 years?
Of greater importance to our discussion is this... How come this announcement is yet to be made…
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come”. (Rev.12:10).
I thought we agreed it had already come and we have evidence of it?
The next word “for” is key in explaining both the reason and the timing…
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, FOR the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.(Rev.12:10)
The evidence or proof that the salvation and power and authority of Christ has come is our accuser is stopped and for some reason, but what is that reason? God's timing is not random. Next look at the tenses…
11And they
HAVE conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they
LOVED not their lives even unto death.
It is finished! It does not say,
and they will conquer him with the blood of the Lamb, which if you are a post-tribber you need to hear for the years ahead. It does not say,
they love not their lives even unto death, for there is no future tense here, nor can there be.
We had two FOR’s explaining the reason or cause, and now we get a THEREFORE explaining the result…
12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them!
That’s us rejoicing in the completion of the hope of salvation fulfilled.
But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
That is not heaven giving the church the bad news with the comfort of Woe to you, but we are having a party in heaven so we don’t care. Cya later church and hope you survive.
We are in heaven. For a post-tribber the church is called to endure to the end and to glorify God by standing up to the wrath of the devil on earth.
I am left in a position where I am accused of trying to be your pastor, bringing in a strange doctrine that the devil is using to upset us, when if you bit hard on some meat and read numerous theological papers it would make it clear that we have three tenses in our salvation, a past, a present and a future.
John was able to describe heaven, the throne, the glories. Can any of you describe to me what it feels like to sit on God's throne? What is the view like from up there, 1400 miles above the gates of the city, and what is the city like?
Yet we confidently declare we have been raised and seated with Christ. We confidently declare that now the kingdom and power and authority of Christ has come, for didn't Jesus declare all power and authority had already been given to Him before the cross? Does the angel in Revelation contradict Jesus' declaration in the Gospel before the devil was even defeated?
It seems pointless to push on for I can't get beyond our foundation. I takes Packer 16 weeks to explain HOPE and it seems that I made the error of thinking this was basic 101 here.
When I was in Bible College I was taught that we need to hear something new 7 times 7 different ways. I usually spend about 20 hrs at the weekend in study, and before I make a statement here I have read the 7 different papers and a lot more, and I need debate to ensure I get this right for everything I have learned comes from believing others in good faith and making every mistake and more than is in the book.
I don't expect anyone to take me on good faith because you'd be a fool to do so. I do however expect that before you comment you have read the Dictionaries and Encyclopedias to make sure an idea that is new to you has a doctrinal foundation, and if that has piqued your interest that you read some of the theological papers and sermons I link to, and moreover you continue with many others until as Paul put it, God gives you a spirit of revelation in the hope we are called to.
Spiritual truth doesn't come easy. It is not for the casual reader. You have to study hard to show yourself approved. The Word shows we are to pray for God to open our eyes to behold the wondrous things in His Law (Ps.118:18). In Bible College we were taught to pray Paul's prayer for revelation in the hope of our calling every day many times.
I guess it is so drummed into me that HOPE is future that I see it as basic level Christianity. It isn't in this forum and our present salvation is being called into question over and over, therefore people are getting depressed, feeling insecure, confused, questioning my motives, talking about Satan confusing us and making it impossible for me to move ahead into much deeper territory.
The problem Adam left us with is one of the law. Right now the devil has both legal standing and legal merit that allows Him to contest the efficacy of the blood cross of Christ before God. I was hoping to get the Law of Adoption, the Law of the Kinsman Redeemer, The Law of the Kinsman Redeemer Avenger, and the the Law of Inheritance to see why there is a fixed time and reason tfor the angel to declare in a loud voice so heaven and earth take notice of a dramatic change,
“Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our (Father) God and the authority of his (Son) Christ have come”.
It is all a matter of Law and it begins with our HOPE for the completion of our adoption in heaven just as it awaits the HOPE of this angelic announcement for something we declare now as a present truth and reality.
So I am closing this thread as it seems to be doing more bad than good. Perhaps I need to begin with the basics of hope, but then if you are interested, go through Packers 16 week explanation, but don't stop there for what if he is cultist and wrong? Get this from at least another 6 eminent theologians and always pray Paul's prayer for revelation in the hope God gives us, for is it a war to break through. The devil will do all he can to rob you of the full knowledge of the hope God has placed you in, the hope of your high calling in Christ IN THE FURTURE.
Blessings all.
