ADOPTION (AT THE RAPTURE): THE MOST IMPORTANT UNDER-TAUGHT DOCTRINE IN THE CHURCH

[Eric Nicholas]

You mean a thread full of a spatterings of decontextualized verses from every direction with the surety and conviction that has possessed every other deluded cultist and knower that's ever lived in history didn't go well? Why, I never...

 

[Andy C]

Interesting thread and even more interesting comments.

Im enjoying being a spectator but this was a bad thread to quit drinking coffee….

 

[1LoverofGod]

Just to address what Paul referred to in regards to Meat. By context of scripture,
Paul wasn't using that term in reference to lack of knowledge.
Paul was addressing the church in Corinth about their not having grown in their walk with Jesus after all the time he had been teaching them, because many of that church were Still being Carnal, when they should have been renewing their minds and turning their lives around in repentance and their maturity should have been evident by that time by their having gone from carnal to more spiritual.

 

[Goodboy]

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Greg]

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I'm not sure how this applies here -- could you elaborate?

 

[1LoverofGod]

Speaking for myself, I have not attempted to berate anyone, or imply that anyone is definitively teaching falsely, but I have followed Bible counsel when I am not sure of what is being taught.

'Test all things;.."
1 Thessalonians 5:22

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; .."
1 John 4:1

"These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so."
Acts 17:1

It's not about discrediting the teacher, but testing the teaching.
When there's a teaching from the Bible, we should always be able to check scripture to confirm what is being taught.
From what I have read, some things that have been said here have not been supported with scripture but have come from what other's have concluded as an interpretation from scripture not put in context from the scriptures used.

 

[Goodboy]

I'm not sure how this applies here -- could you elaborate?

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

The main point of the verse is understanding what being tossed to and fro means. This mean you understand something but when hearing another interpretation then think something else. It is similar to building your house on a rock. So if one has good sound Christian teaching, not to go listing to all other different theories that man comes up with.

Does that help?

 

[Greg]

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

The main point of the verse is understanding what being tossed to and fro means. This mean you understand something but then hear another interpretation and then think something else. It is similar to building your house on a rock. So if one has good sound Christian teaching, not to go listing to all other different theories that man comes up with.

Does that help?

In general, but how does it apply specifically to this thread? I guess I'm not seeing it. If it's what PaidInFull has posted, no major points that I'm aware of are outside of well established interpretation of scripture that we all align with, even though some of the concepts are hard to understand. For an example (not in this thread), trying to explain the Trinity. Or for another (in this thread), the three tenses of salvation (justification - past, sanctification - ongoing/present, glorification - future). That's about as mainstream as you can get, but kind of wading into the deep end in a lot of ways.

I guess if it's a warning in general, it's well taken, but if it's calling out something specific I'm missing it.

 

[Goodboy]

In general, but how does it apply specifically to this thread? I guess I'm not seeing it. If it's what PaidInFull has posted, no major points that I'm aware of are outside of well established interpretation of scripture that we all align with, even though some of the concepts are hard to understand. For an example (not in this thread), trying to explain the Trinity. Or for another (in this thread), the three tenses of salvation (justification - past, sanctification - ongoing/present, glorification - future). That's about as mainstream as you can get, but kind of wading into the deep end in a lot of ways.

I guess if it's a warning in general, it's well taken, but if it's calling out something specific I'm missing it.

Yes, it is more of a general warning as I am not really sure all of what PaidInfull is actually saying. We Christians do not need to go read this and read that and then something else. We have the Bible and I believe should use that to make our point just like Jesus did when confronted by the Devil. I can tell you I myself have been able to shut down many conversations using the Bible alone.

So again you may not see it but there is some disagreement in this thread which is why I posted what I did. I am not accusing PaidInFull of anything, just warning others not to flip flop back forth regarding scripture as the Bible says that is what children are pron to do.

 

[Greg]

Yes, it is more of a general warning as I am not really sure all of what PaidInfull is actually saying. We Christians do not need to go read this and read that and then something else. We have the Bible and I believe should use that to make our point just like Jesus did when confronted by the Devil. I can tell you I myself have been able to shut many conversation down using the Bible alone.

So again you may not see it but there is some disagreement in this thread which is why I posted what I did. I am not accusing PaidInFull of anything, just warning others not to flip flop backing forth regarding scripture as the Bible says that is what children are pron to do.

Thanks -- that makes sense! I only slightly disagree in that a lot of people make their points solely from the Bible, but they only consider certain verses. That, combined with the natures we struggle against, will often lead them astray into all kinds of error. The three best ways I know of to combat that are prayer; regularly reading all the Bible so as to be familiar with all the verses, even the ones that appear to contradict each other; and also reading/listening to others that have gone down this road before us. That last of course requires us to weigh everything against scripture and be as Bereans.

The marvelous thing is God gives us all enough for what we need, but there's also always more there to be found. At it's best, I think that is where this thread was going.

 

[1LoverofGod]

In general, but how does it apply specifically to this thread? I guess I'm not seeing it. If it's what PaidInFull has posted, no major points that I'm aware of are outside of well established interpretation of scripture that we all align with, even though some of the concepts are hard to understand. For an example (not in this thread), trying to explain the Trinity. Or for another (in this thread), the three tenses of salvation (justification - past, sanctification - ongoing/present, glorification - future). That's about as mainstream as you can get, but kind of wading into the deep end in a lot of ways.

I guess if it's a warning in general, it's well taken, but if it's calling out something specific I'm missing it.

What I picked up on that is outside of scripture is the interpretation of why the Archangel Michael and his Angels battle with Satan and his angels. This thread is concluding that this battle is about Satan having a legal hold on believers as well as unbelievers and his accusing us before God.
Yes, the adversary Does accuse us before God, that's scripture, but to conclude that the battle between the angels in heaven is about satan's legal hold on mankind is not founded on scripture.
There's a reason that battle takes place and by the devil's history in scripture it's more about Satan constantly trying to deter God's prophetic plans and the Time has come for The Day of The Lord in His Wrath and part of judgement is to oust the devil from his going back and forth from heaven to roaming the Earth misleading and deceiving mankind and upon Jesus second coming it's time to bind Satan in the Abyss. So going by scripture that makes more sense why that battle takes place.
I don't know of scripture saying it's about satan's legal hold on us.

 

[Goodboy]

Thanks -- that makes sense! I only slightly disagree in that a lot of people make their points solely from the Bible, but they only consider certain verses. That, combined with the natures we struggle against, will often lead them astray into all kinds of error. The three best ways I know of to combat that are prayer; regularly reading all the Bible so as to be familiar with all the verses, even the ones that appear to contradict each other; and also reading/listening to others that have gone down this road before us. That last of course requires us to weigh everything against scripture and be as Bereans.

The marvelous thing is God gives us all enough for what we need, but there's also always more there to be found. At it's best, I think that is where this thread was going.

Not sure why you say you slightly disagree. I agree with everything you stated!

 

[Greg]

What I picked up on that is outside of scripture is the interpretation of why the Archangel Michael and his Angels battle with Satan and his angels. This thread is concluding that this battle is about Satan having a legal hold on believers as well as unbelievers and his accusing us before God.
Yes, the adversary Does accuse us before God, that's scripture, but to conclude that the battle between the angels in heaven is about satan's legal hold on mankind is not founded on scripture.
There's a reason that battle takes place and by the devil's history in scripture it's more about Satan constantly trying to deter God's prophetic plans and the Time has come for The Day of The Lord in His Wrath and part of judgement is to oust the devil from his going back and forth from heaven to roaming the Earth misleading and deceiving mankind and upon Jesus second coming it's time to bind Satan in the Abyss. So going by scripture that makes more sense why that battle takes place.
I don't know of scripture saying it's about satan's legal hold on us.

Well, in fairness, the discussion hadn't proceeded that far yet, so I don't think there's really a basis to judge at this point. And I'll have to go back and look at that part of this thread, but I recall it being mentioned as a factor, but not necessarily the sole reason for Michael's actions, which come at God's command. But the Bible is clear Satan still has access to Heaven and accuses us night and day, even though Jesus in the gospels says He saw him fall like lightning from Heaven. That may seem contradictory, but according to scripture both are completely true. And there will be a future war in Heaven with him finally losing access. We aren't given all the details for that, just that it will happen and he will come to the Earth with great rage, and his deceptions will reach their highest level ever to the point that people will try to war against Jesus.

Using NKJV here's what the Bible gives us on that event (Revelation 12:7-12):

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

So anything outside of that is us filling in the gaps unless it's found and cross-referenced elsewhere in scripture.

 

[Greg]

Not sure why you say you slightly disagree. I agree with everything you stated!

I'm literally laughing right now, and I needed that! The only slight disagreement is that you said the Bible alone, while I was pointing out that for me it's the Bible first and foremost, but I also need to learn from others who have studied this much more deeply than I ever hope to -- even the ones I disagree with sometimes to help challenge the assumptions I make. But glad we agree on what's important!

 

[1LoverofGod]

Well, in fairness, the discussion hadn't proceeded that far yet, so I don't think there's really a basis to judge at this point. And I'll have to go back and look at that part of this thread, but I recall it being mentioned as a factor, but not necessarily the sole reason for Michael's actions, which come at God's command. But the Bible is clear Satan still has access to Heaven and accuses us night and day, even though Jesus in the gospels says He saw him fall like lightning from Heaven. That may seem contradictory, but according to scripture both are completely true. And there will be a future war in Heaven with him finally losing access. We aren't given all the details for that, just that it will happen and he will come to the Earth with great rage, and his deceptions will reach their highest level ever to the point that people will try to war against Jesus.

Using NKJV here's what the Bible gives us on that event (Revelation 12:7-12):

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

So anything outside of that is us filling in the gaps unless it's found and cross-referenced elsewhere in scripture.

The fall of Satan like lightening from the sky is not contradictory because this refers to satan's fall from his position in Heaven and having becoming an enemy of God.
The same goes for the fallen angels that followed Satan, they lost their heavenly positions in rebellion of God.

 

[Andiamo]

You mean a thread full of a spatterings of decontextualized verses from every direction with the surety and conviction that has possessed every other deluded cultist and knower that's ever lived in history didn't go well? Why, I never...

Your avatar

 

[mattfivefour]

When it comes to Revelation 12:7-12 and some other passages in the Book, one's interpretation depends on whether one accepts Revelation as a chronological account from beginning to end, or a chronological account with historical inserts in places, that are necessary for explanatory purposes.

For example, Isaiah 12:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 would seem to indicate that Satan has been kicked out of Heaven ... at least as his dwelling place. Jesus said that He had seen Satan cast out of Heaven (Luke 10:18). That is past tense, spoken around 30 AD. What then are we to make of an account of Satan being cast out of heaven along with one third of the angels in Revelation 12:7-12? Is it a second casting out? That makes little sense to me, although some claim one was a spiritual casting out to and the other physical casting out; or some say it was a physical casting out followed by a legal casting out. To me those are stretches of human imagination to fit a theory. I believe that the account in Revelation is a simple retelling of what has already taken place. But, by my believing what seems so simple on the surface, I destroy the foundation of the legal casting out theory that men have built on the idea that Revelation 12 is entirely future chronologically and describes a future moment-- the moment when Satan will finally be "legally" cast out of Heaven. And all the theological writing by theologians offering their theories and quoting one another ad finitum does not convince me that they are right. I simply take Scripture as God has given it-- as something that is straightforward and simple to grasp, despite deep things being contained in it.

I have wasted far too much time in my life studying writings of theologians as they argue among themselves to promote the things they claim they have learned from scripture, quoting other theologians of note whose views support their own. At times it is like a fencing duel between two theologians of different camps. And, frankly, I do not believe that God is in most of it. As I have said elsewhere, much theological discourse (and possibly most of it today) is rooted in a prideful spirit. Many theologians take great pride in being able to winkle out a truth from scripture and will defend it in the strongest of terms against others. I do not see much humility in their writings; but I do see a lot of pride and exaltation of the human mind ... at least, of the mind of the one doing the writing. How much more productive is the time spent reading God's word prayerfully, trusting the Holy Spirit to reveal what he desires to reveal to you at that time.

I'm not against teachers or pastors who teach. Of course not. God placed those resources into the Church. But give me someone who uses Scripture exclusively in support of their ideas and l will listen to them, searching the Scriptures for myself to see if their use is correct and if so I will receive a fresh insight that will grow my faith, my knowledge of God, and inspire me to greater obedience. But give me a theologian who may quote some Scripture but chiefly quotes other theologians' interpretations of Scripture as his or her support? Don't waste my time; I'm not interested.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

You mean a thread full of a spatterings of decontextualized verses from every direction with the surety and conviction that has possessed every other deluded cultist and knower that's ever lived in history didn't go well? Why, I never...

AHAHAHA nice avatar LOL

 

[1LoverofGod]

When it comes to Revelation 12:7-12 and some other passages in the Book, one's interpretation depends on whether one accepts Revelation as a chronological account from beginning to end, or a chronological account with historical inserts in places, that are necessary for explanatory purposes.

For example, Isaiah 12:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 would seem to indicate that Satan has been kicked out of Heaven ... at least as his dwelling place. Jesus said that He had seen Satan cast out of Heaven (Luke 10:18). That is past tense, spoken around 30 AD. What then are we to make of an account of Satan being cast out of heaven along with one third of the angels in Revelation 12:7-12? Is it a second casting out? That makes little sense to me, although some claim one was a spiritual casting out to and the other physical casting out; or some say it was a physical casting out followed by a legal casting out. To me those are stretches of human imagination to fit a theory. I believe that the account in Revelation is a simple retelling of what has already taken place. But, by my believing what seems so simple on the surface, I destroy the foundation of the legal casting out theory that men have built on the idea that Revelation 12 is entirely future chronologically and describes a future moment-- the moment when Satan will finally be "legally" cast out of Heaven. And all the theological writing by theologians offering their theories and quoting one another ad finitum does not convince me that they are right. I simply take Scripture as God has given it-- as something that is straightforward and simple to grasp, despite deep things being contained in it.

I have wasted far too much time in my life studying writings of theologians as they argue among themselves to promote the things they claim they have learned from scripture, quoting other theologians of note whose views support their own. At times it is like a fencing duel between two theologians of different camps. And, frankly, I do not believe that God is in most of it. As I have said elsewhere, much theological discourse (and possibly most of it today) is rooted in a prideful spirit. Many theologians take great pride in being able to winkle out a truth from scripture and will defend it in the strongest of terms against others. I do not see much humility in their writings; but I do see a lot of pride and exaltation of the human mind ... at least, of the mind of the one doing the writing. How much more productive is the time spent reading God's word prayerfully, trusting the Holy Spirit to reveal what he desires to reveal to you at that time.

I'm not against teachers or pastors who teach. Of course not. God placed those resources into the Church. But give me someone who uses Scripture exclusively in support of their ideas and l will listen to them, searching the Scriptures for myself to see if their use is correct and if so I will receive a fresh insight that will grow my faith, my knowledge of God, and inspire me to greater obedience. But give me a theologian who may quote some Scripture but chiefly quotes other theologians' interpretations of Scripture as his or her support? Don't waste my time; I'm not interested.

I tend to think satan and the fallen angels lost their place in heaven long time ago. I can lean towards the Revelation 12 account of satan having been ousted from heaven as already having happened. I believe Revelation is not in chronological order. Some parts are, others aren't. Take example the first Seal. If that Rider on the white horse is actually depicting the Antichrist coming on the scene, and his appearance brings the confirming of the covenant Daniel speaks of, we can jump over to Revelation 17 and there it says the ten horned kings give Power to the Beast. I ask myself if he doesn't have power given to him until Revelation 17, how can he have the authority to confirm the covenant in Revelation 6? This tells me some of the events in Revelation are not in order.
Back to sstan being kicked out of heaven. The mention of it in Revelation 12 can be it already happened, just as Revelation 12 speaks of The Woman with the crown with 12 stars, with the baby that satan tries to kill.
That historically already happened.
While I can put this together to be honest I can't say why those events are put in Revelation the way they are.
I'd have to do some studying on that to understand it.

 

[Goodboy]

I have wasted far too much time in my life studying writings of theologians as they argue among themselves to promote the things they claim they have learned from scripture, quoting other theologians of note whose views support their own. At times it is like a fencing duel between two theologians of different camps. And, frankly, I do not believe that God is in most of it. As I have said elsewhere, much theological discourse (and possibly most of it today) is rooted in a prideful spirit. Many theologians take great pride in being able to winkle out a truth from scripture and will defend it in the strongest of terms against others. I do not see much humility in their writings; but I do see a lot of pride and exaltation of the human mind ... at least, of the mind of the one doing the writing. How much more productive is the time spent reading God's word prayerfully, trusting the Holy Spirit to reveal what he desires to reveal to you at that time.

I'm not against teachers or pastors who teach. Of course not. God placed those resources into the Church. But give me someone who uses Scripture exclusively in support of their ideas and l will listen to them, searching the Scriptures for myself to see if their use is correct and if so I will receive a fresh insight that will grow my faith, my knowledge of God, and inspire me to greater obedience. But give me a theologian who may quote some Scripture but chiefly quotes other theologians' interpretations of Scripture as his or her support? Don't waste my time; I'm not interested.

Excellent post and here is why.

The Bible is the only truth. Men have taken what is in the Bible and have written, stated or preached what they think the Bible is saying. There is nothing wrong with that and I do that myself at times. However, we all must understand that what any man including me writes, states or preaches could be wrong. So whatever they or I write, state or preach must be consistent with what the Bible says. Too many Christians will take what their favorite Pastor, Christian author or even good friend says as Gospel. When I first got saved over 40 years ago, I fell into the trap of believing everything my Pastor said, including how we had the best church there is! It took me a few years to see that some things that he said were wrong and not in the Bible.

Why is that a problem? Well here is what the Bible says.

Psalms 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psalms 146:3 - Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Jeremiah 17:5 - Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Goodboy