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Elijah and His Ministry Before the Second Coming of Jesus
- Thread starter Tall Timbers
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Spartan Sprinter
Well-known
I think i'd be too distracted by the Lord and the glory of his kingdom before that thought even entered my mind , my head would just be freakin out in each direction i look
And that, my friend, is the best way to deal with bullies... call out the bears!!!
Elijaha's ministry for which Jews set out a plate for him at the Seder table is a separate ministry from the two witnesses. That's one reason I think it is unlikely that Elijah will be one of the two.
Any thoughts about who the two witnesses will be, IMO, is nothing more than speculation because I don't believe the Bible reveals the identity of the two. People often have decided that it is two specific old testament individuals and talk as if it is a done deal. Somebody will be bound to be right, but as of now we don't know the identities of the two witnesses.
Spartan Sprinter
Well-known
Maybe? It would sure be wonderful. And perhaps by the Lord's grace it would happen on Passover because that would certainly be something that would help people accept a man claiming to be Elijah, showing up preaching God's Word, restoring the hearts of the generations to each other thru that ministry.
Looking at Malachi 4 which has this prophecy and note the time stamp for the prophecy in v 1. This was not completely fulfilled with John the Baptist in his time although he ministered in the spirit of Elijah, to restore the hearts of the parents to their children and vice versa as this Got Questions article points out Why must Elijah return before the end times (Malachi 4:5-6)? | GotQuestions.org
The Got questions article sidesteps the timing of v 1 though, so I think yes John the Baptist did fulfill the prophecy as Jesus said he did, BUT Jewish prophecy comes with repetition. The prophetic fulfillment of the AC for example has a forerunner in Antiochus Epiphanes. There are near term fulfillments followed by complete fulfillments.
John the Baptist would have been the complete fulfillment if the Jews of that time had corporately as a nation embraced their Messiah, and the offer of the Kingdom at that time. And John did arrive before the day of the Lord which would be 2k years future to him. As Fruchtenbaum points out (OP top of thread)
But in God's foreknowledge they refused, and we were grafted in as wild olive branches onto the cultivated olive's roots. What was loss to them, is mercy to us. When that time clock starts ticking again, in the time of the Tribulation described by Malachi in v 1 here, then Elijah will come. And Got Questions has a really nice article on the Day of the Lord here What is the “great and dreadful day of the Lord” (Malachi 4:5)? | GotQuestions.org
It all lines up with the Fruchtenbaum article in the OP listed at the top of the thread.
They just fail to explore the obvious connection between Elijah and the Day of the Lord. V 1 is a day that burns like a furnace removing the evildoers like stubble is burnt.
The survivors of the Tribulation in V 2 along with all those who revere the Lord will experience healing, and joy in the appearance of the Lord at the end.
V 3 explains those survivors will trample on the wicked, they will be ashes underfoot on the day when the Lord acts.
V 4 is a reminder of the law of Moses. Jesus doesn't do away with the Law, He fulfills it completely and in Him we are accounted righteous as we fulfill the Law in Him.
v 5 The Lord says He will send the prophet Elijah to the Jews, before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. Which suggests that Elijah arrives before the Tribulation fully starts. That may be a hint that Elijah is one of the 2 Witnesses but it isn't spelled out.
V 6 explains that because Elijah turns the hearts, God will not have to strike the land with total destruction. This would suggest that Elijah's ministry here is restoring family relationships, in such a way that the nation of Israel is able to please the Lord again. But I think it might be more than just a father and son at odds.
Think back to what the Bible says about the Jews. They are beloved "for the sake of the fathers". Romans 11:28
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are those fathers. As are all their descendants who followed the Lord. But a generation came up that didn't follow God anymore, they clung to the traditions of the elders- the Pharisees who put their oral traditions above the very Word of God- their Bible. These are like the faithless or backsliding (different translations) children of Jeremiah 3:14-22 who rejected their Lord who fulfilled every prophecy of the Messiah down to the very precise timing of Daniel pointing at what we now call Palm Sunday.
Jeremiah's context speaks of the final Kingdom where they will return to God for the last time. The generation of faithless (the version I quote below calls them backsliding) children rejected their Messiah, and to this day follow Pharasaic teaching. There are always Jews who serve the Lord as Peter, Paul, James, and Jude did, but the time of the Tribulation is a time for the faithless children to return to their God.
There is coming a day when Elijah will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children but also the hearts of the children back to the fathers. If that is referring to the generation in Israel when the Tribulation starts- the restoration ministry of Elijah could be the waking up of an entire generation of Jews to their heritage, to the Word of God, to their Messiah.
And that would line up with the purpose of the Tribulation - the salvation of the Jewish nation- and the multiple times God promises that in that time the Jews would turn to Him. Paul in Romans 11 speaks of that day. I'll put that below Malachi 4 here
Malachi 4:1-6
1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.
2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves.
3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.
4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.
6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
The point of Romans here is to point out the process- the hardening for a season, till the Rapture, when they will be restored to the Lord. It also points out that the Jews are beloved for the sake of "the fathers" which is why I want to tie that into Malachi to explain how Elijah might be restoring the fathers to the children and vice versa
Romans 11: 25-
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
And Jeremiah next discusses the faithless or backsliding children- again the process of restoration thru repentance and dawning belief in God in the backdrop of the Tribulation period.
This passage in Jeremiah jumps around in time a bit- from the beginnings of Israel v 14&18 mostly out of Russia, Ukraine, Poland and Germany in the early Zionist movement. v 16&17 looks ahead to the Millennial rule, there is a back and forth between God and a repenting people turning back to Him. This is the whole process of redemption being worked out thru the Tribulation period.
Jeremiah 3:22-25
14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the Lord; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
15 And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the Lord, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the Lord.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the Lord, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.
19 “But I said:
‘How can I put you among the children
And give you a pleasant land,
A beautiful heritage of the hosts of nations?’
“And I said:
‘You shall call Me, “My Father,”
And not turn away from Me.’
20 Surely, as a wife treacherously departs from her husband,
So have you dealt treacherously with Me,
O house of Israel,” says the Lord.
21 A voice was heard on the desolate heights,
Weeping and supplications of the children of Israel.
For they have perverted their way;
They have forgotten the Lord their God.
22 “Return, you backsliding children,
And I will heal your backslidings.”
“Indeed we do come to You,
For You are the Lord our God.
23 Truly, in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills,
And from the multitude of mountains;
Truly, in the Lord our God
Is the salvation of Israel.
24 For shame has devoured
The labor of our fathers from our youth—
Their flocks and their herds,
Their sons and their daughters.
25 We lie down in our shame,
And our reproach covers us.
For we have sinned against the Lord our God,
We and our fathers,
From our youth even to this day,
And have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God.”
The short form of what I put up above is this
The ministry of Elijah is to restore the hearts of the children to the fathers and the fathers to the children is less about family dynamics as it is restoring the FATHERS of the Jews, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, their deep faith in God to their backslidden children of the time of the Day of the Lord (the tribulation). And the Children who are either agnostic, atheistic, Pharisee (modern version of Judaism) or have completely gone after other gods- To the faith of their fathers.
Malachi states Elijah shows up around the beginning or slightly before the Tribulation starts.
The $64 million question is whether that happens thru one of the 2 Witnesses if one of them is Elijah or if that ministry of Elijah is completely separate from the 2 Witnesses.
Elijah arrives at a time of dreadful almost complete apostasy in Israel (the Northern Kingdom). He's not even sure if there are any others left who serve God (God has to remind him that God has many others who still serve God). Talk about a start from scratch ministry call.
Jezebel has been successful in intimidating the prophets of God and turning the hearts of her husband Ahab and the people of Israel to false gods. She's got a lot of power. She's slaughtered prophets before and doesn't see why Elijah will be any different.
She's like the Whore of Babylon, riding high on a wave of popular idolatry and apostasy in The Tribulation.
Elijah is her nemesis. Another small hint that he might be one of the 2 Witnesses.
Like Joshua before him, Elijah cries out CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE and Israel gathers to see who will win the battle.
Elijah faced off the most powerful demonic entities, just as Moses did against Pharoah and his magicians.
Whether Israel of today will face Moses or Elijah or Enoch or 2 others completely different, in the form of the 2 witnesses we don't know but certainly the ministry of Elijah and Moses serves as a foretaste of what's coming next.
The ministry of Elijah is to restore the hearts of the children to the fathers and the fathers to the children is less about family dynamics as it is restoring the FATHERS of the Jews, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, their deep faith in God to their backslidden children of the time of the Day of the Lord (the tribulation). And the Children who are either agnostic, atheistic, Pharisee (modern version of Judaism) or have completely gone after other gods- To the faith of their fathers.
Malachi states Elijah shows up around the beginning or slightly before the Tribulation starts.
The $64 million question is whether that happens thru one of the 2 Witnesses if one of them is Elijah or if that ministry of Elijah is completely separate from the 2 Witnesses.
Elijah arrives at a time of dreadful almost complete apostasy in Israel (the Northern Kingdom). He's not even sure if there are any others left who serve God (God has to remind him that God has many others who still serve God). Talk about a start from scratch ministry call.
Jezebel has been successful in intimidating the prophets of God and turning the hearts of her husband Ahab and the people of Israel to false gods. She's got a lot of power. She's slaughtered prophets before and doesn't see why Elijah will be any different.
She's like the Whore of Babylon, riding high on a wave of popular idolatry and apostasy in The Tribulation.
Elijah is her nemesis. Another small hint that he might be one of the 2 Witnesses.
Like Joshua before him, Elijah cries out CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE and Israel gathers to see who will win the battle.
Elijah faced off the most powerful demonic entities, just as Moses did against Pharoah and his magicians.
Whether Israel of today will face Moses or Elijah or Enoch or 2 others completely different, in the form of the 2 witnesses we don't know but certainly the ministry of Elijah and Moses serves as a foretaste of what's coming next.
Spartan Sprinter
Well-known
I enjoyed the long and short of it LOL
For the record, these weren't kids. They were likely teenage males (the Hebrew word means young males, but not necessarily of a specific age range.) As Dave Guzik's points out in his excellent Enduring Word commentary, the word was applied to Joseph when he was 39 (Genesis 41:12), to Absalom as an adult (2 Samuel 14:21, 18:5), and to Solomon when he was 20 (1 Kings 3:7). Given the context of this passage, they were likely what I said they were-- teenage males. And there were more than 42 of them. This was a gang! And by age and by their sheer number they were actually a very real threat to Elisha.
Spartan Sprinter
Well-known
Did ishmael also fall into the same category of being a teenager at the time he almost died until the God heard Hagar's cries?
Drawing from what evidence we can find in the biblical narrative, Ishmael was likely in his mid teens. He was around 14 when Isaac was born and therefore around 15 or 16 when Isaac was weaned (Genesis 21:5-10), which is when he and his mother were exiled. The idea that he was a baby, being fed from a bottle, and carried on Hagar's back is something people read into the Bible. It is not there in the text.
lismore
Well-known
Hello! Yes Elijah and Enoch didn't die. There is also the case of Moses:I thought that reincarnation (re-issued mortal bodies) was unbiblical but a central tenet of Indian religions. Do you think this might be another exception to the rule similar to “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). Except Elijah and Enoch didn’t die. This to me opens a can of worms about what may lie ahead for us and our roles in the Millennial kingdom on earth.
I’m overthinking this. I’ll shut up now!
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” (Jude 1:9).
For some reason the devil wanted the body of Moses and for some reason the archangel Moses was sent to prevent that. In Numbers 20 Moses struck the rock instead of speaking to it as God had told him to, so in the end he died. But his body did not see decay. Perhaps he is one of the two witnesses because:
Revelation 11:6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
The person in the bible with the power to turn the waters to blood and to strike the earth with plagues is Moses.
God Bless
Moses was used for much in the way of miraculous signs and wonders. I think though, that God could use whomever he chooses for such powers that the two witnesses will display.
TrustandFaith
Active
Thanks @lismore. I agree with all you say but I would welcome counsel on what Satan could possibly do with Moses’ dead body that would impact God’s plan??? Anyone? Is it to do with Satan wanting to prevent his resurrection based on Moses’ sin of striking the rock?
TCC
Well-known
Great converstation guys. I could only get so far with it today. But I think fighting over Moses body might have implications to have Elijah first before the 2 witnesses. Ultimately, I believe the 2 witnesses to be Elijah and Enoch. But yeah the possibility of old world/new world with Enoch and Moses is plausible for reasons stated.
As I am known for aberrant 1st seal theory, was there ever a theory of the 1st seal being Elijah? Because in this context that would make sense. Or why there may not have been one? Blessings.
As I am known for aberrant 1st seal theory, was there ever a theory of the 1st seal being Elijah? Because in this context that would make sense. Or why there may not have been one? Blessings.
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