Elijah and His Ministry Before the Second Coming of Jesus

[Tall Timbers]

I thought that reincarnation (re-issued mortal bodies) was unbiblical but a central tenet of Indian religions. Do you think this might be another exception to the rule similar to “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). Except Elijah and Enoch didn’t die. This to me opens a can of worms about what may lie ahead for us and our roles in the Millennial kingdom on earth.

I’m overthinking this. I’ll shut up now!

I didn't put much thought into that. Would it be re-incarnation if they come back as themselves? I don't think you can have a mortal body in heaven, for reasons of purity if nothing else. If Enoch and Moses were the two guys for example, they'd not be coming back as somebody or something else, but they'd return as themselves. Their mortal beings sent back for 3 1/2 years to complete a mission.

 

[Batman]

I'm still going with Elijah and Moses.

 

[Margery]

Moses died (according to the old Jewish texts that Jude verse 9 referred to, Satan disputed with Michael the archangel about his body) and was buried in a hidden grave by God. Deut 34:5-7

It wouldn't be a stretch for God to bring his dust back to life in a body that could still die.

Essentially that was what happened with Lazarus. He was thoroughly dead and starting to decay by the time Jesus brought him to life again and later Lazarus died at the end of his life, and awaits his glorified body at the Rapture.

I'd expect something like that for Moses. That is possibly why Satan wanted to fight Michael about Moses's body.

Elijah and Enoch are different in that they were both Raptured- taken up without seeing death. This doesn't mean that either one couldn't be restored to their own mortal body that is rebuilt by God in an instant out of their constituent atoms, mortal bodies that are subject to death.

I didn't put much thought into that. Would it be re-incarnation if they come back as themselves? I don't think you can have a mortal body in heaven, for reasons of purity if nothing else. If Enoch and Moses were the two guys for example, they'd not be coming back as somebody or something else, but they'd return as themselves. Their mortal beings sent back for 3 1/2 years to complete a mission.

This wouldn't be reincarnation, because they'd be back in their own bodies like Moses.

Whatever type of body that God gives them to wear down here as the 2 Witnesses will have powers that go beyond the normal human body- the fire from their mouths that consumes their enemies. But at the same time they are unable to be killed until the time that God ordains. Then and only then is the Beast that rises out of the pit (Rev chapter 11) able to kill them.

So they minister for their season- 3&1/2 years, immortal till the day God allows that they will be killed. Their bodies lie dead 3&1/2 days and then they are Raptured up to heaven in the sight of all.

 

[mattfivefour]

Elijah and Enoch are different in that they were both Raptured- taken up without seeing death. This doesn't mean that either one couldn't be restored to their own mortal body that is rebuilt by God in an instant out of their constituent atoms, mortal bodies that are subject to death. <snip> This wouldn't be reincarnation, because they'd be back in their own bodies.

I am of this opinion.

 

[AnyMinute]

Hi @Margery- I hope this isn't too much of a derail from the topic but I'm interested in your thoughts about when the Old Testament Saints will be resurrected.

Essentially that was what happened with Lazarus. He was thoroughly dead and starting to decay by the time Jesus brought him to life again and later Lazarus died at the end of his life, and awaits his glorified body at the Rapture.

I guess it would depend if Lazarus would be considered part of the Church (imo).
I've understood/accepted that Old Testament Saints would be resurrected sometime near or shortly after the end of the Tribulation.
I believe the what we refer to as the pre-trib rapture/resurrection is unique to Church age saints and that Old Testament saints and tribulation believers who died would take part in a separate resurrection.

Elijah and Enoch are different in that they were both Raptured- taken up without seeing death

I know Enoch and Elijah were taken alive and it is said that they are a type/example of the rapture of the Church. Since the rapture includes resurrecting the dead in Christ, giving all their Glorified bodies and if it is a unique event for the Church, then I haven't believed so far that Old Testament Saints would be resurrected at the same time as us.

Just wanted to pick your brain a little if you don't mind.
Here are a couple links to how I've understood the different resurrections explained.

When will the Resurrection take place? | GotQuestions.org

When will the Resurrection take place? When are the Old Testament saints resurrected?

www.gotquestions.org

"Another great resurrection will occur when Christ returns to earth (His Second Coming) at the end of the Tribulation period. After the rapture, the Tribulation is the next event after the Church Age in God’s chronology. This will be a time of terrible judgment upon the world, described in great detail in Revelation chapters 6-18. Though all Church Age believers will be gone, millions of people left behind on earth will come to their senses during this time and will trust in Jesus as their Savior. Tragically, most of them will pay for their faith in Jesus by losing their lives (Revelation 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 13:7, 15-17; 17:6; 19:1-2). These believers in Jesus who die during the Tribulation will be resurrected at Christ’s return and will reign with Him for a thousand years during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4, 6). Old Testament believers such as Job, Noah, Abraham, David and even John the Baptist (who was assassinated before the Church began) will be resurrected at this time also. Several passages in the Old Testament mention this event (Job 19:25-27; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:1-2; Hosea 13:14). Ezekiel 37:1-14 describes primarily the regathering of the Nation of Israel using the symbolism of dead corpses coming back to life. But from the language used, a physical resurrection of dead Israelis cannot be excluded from the passage. Again, all believers in God (in the Old Testament era) and all believers in Jesus (in the New Testament era) participate in the first resurrection, a resurrection to life (Revelation 20:4, 6"

Saints Alive! – Grace thru faith

gracethrufaith.com

"You’re correct in saying that all Church Age saints will receive glorified bodies at the rapture/resurrection. We will reside in the New Jerusalem. Old Testament saints will receive their new bodies at the time of the 2nd Coming (Daniel 12:2) and will dwell in Israel. Tribulation saints who are martyred will receive new bodies along with Old Testament saints at the time of the 2nd Coming (Rev. 20:4-5), and will serve the Lord in His Temple (Rev. 7:14-15). Tribulation Saints who survive in their natural state will re-populate the nations on Earth during the Millennium. (Matt. 25:34)"

 

[Tall Timbers]

Hi Margery- I hope this isn't too much of a derail from the topic but I'm interested in your thoughts about when the Old Testament Saints will be resurrected.

Here's what Arnold in Footsteps says about the Rapture of Old Testament Saints:

The rapture will include only the church saints, and it will occur before the great tribulation. Later, during the seventy-five-day interval, the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. This is stated by two verses, the first being Isaiah 26:19: Your dead shall live; my dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust; for your dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast forth the dead. This is a general statement of the fact that a resurrection will take place at some time.

A clearer picture is found in the second verse, Daniel 12:2: And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. In the context of Daniel 12, the prophet is speaking of events after the tribulation; therefore, this is the time that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. A more literal rendering of the verse would read as follows: “And at that time, many of your people shall awake [or be separated out] from among the sleepers in the earth’s dust. These who awake shall be unto life everlasting, but those [meaning the rest of the sleepers who do not awake at this time] shall be unto shame and contempt everlasting.” The verse draws a clear distinction between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the unrighteous. Only the first group will be resurrected at this time in order to partake of the blessings of the millennial kingdom. These are the friends of the bridegroom (Jn. 3:29) who will be invited to the wedding feast with which the millennium will begin.

 

[AnyMinute]

Here's what Arnold in Footsteps says about the Rapture of Old Testament Saints:

Thanks T.T., that's how I understand it as well.

 

[mattfivefour]

Thanks T.T., that's how I understand it as well.

Me, too.

 

[Margery]

And Fruchtenbaum states how I think about it too.

As for Lazarus, I figure that any follower of Jesus who lived after the Cross and Resurrection, Ascension and that first Pentecost with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit on the church from that time on, counts as a Christian in the church age. Same as Peter and John the beloved (the one that wrote Revelation). They also span the time of Christ's ministry, to the Cross, to Pentecost and into the early Church Age.

From all accounts he lived out a normal lifespan after that- there are several competing legends about where he went and what he did. Fun to read, impossible to tease out what is fact and what is fancy.

He lived beyond the first Pentecost by all accounts, wherever he ended up so I think he counts as a Church Age believer.

John the Baptist was murdered by Herod before the Cross so he would count as an OT believer.

 

[AnyMinute]

And Fruchtenbaum states how I think about it too.

As for Lazarus, I figure that any follower of Jesus who lived after the Cross and Resurrection, Ascension and that first Pentecost with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit on the church from that time on, counts as a Christian in the church age. Same as Peter and John the beloved (the one that wrote Revelation). They also span the time of Christ's ministry, to the Cross, to Pentecost and into the early Church Age.

From all accounts he lived out a normal lifespan after that- there are several competing legends about where he went and what he did. Fun to read, impossible to tease out what is fact and what is fancy.

He lived beyond the first Pentecost by all accounts, wherever he ended up so I think he counts as a Church Age believer.

John the Baptist was murdered by Herod before the Cross so he would count as an OT believer.

Excellent point! I am glad I asked and thanks for the reply, you have a way of bringing out some of the finer points I've never considered.

 

[Batman]

If Elijah and Moses.....what age will they appear as? Young men, the age they were when the were gone from the earth, something else?

 

[Tall Timbers]

If Elijah and Moses.....what age will they appear as? Young men, the age they were when the were gone from the earth, something else?

I always imagine the two witnesses as old wrinkly guys with long white beards. If they're from Old Testament times they'll likely be real muscular, but not like a person gets from working out in a gym, but how a person gets from hard manual labor. Of course, I have no clue what age they'll appear to be.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

If Elijah and Moses.....what age will they appear as? Young men, the age they were when the were gone from the earth, something else?

I'd imagine they'd reappear as old men as both of them were old when they were raptured and died (?) respectively

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

I always imagine the two witnesses as old wrinkly guys with long white beards. If they're from Old Testament times they'll likely be real muscular, but not like a person gets from working out in a gym, but how a person gets from hard manual labor. Of course, I have no clue what age they'll appear to be.

Easy on those hamburgers there LOL

 

[Margery]

If Elijah and Moses.....what age will they appear as? Young men, the age they were when the were gone from the earth, something else?

I love it when various books on the Tribulation have them as weather beaten tough men of indeterminate age. I see them as older but not ancient. Muscular, forceful men ready to blast their enemies with fire, able to shout over a crowd and make everyone hear them whether they want to listen or not.

Here's a good description of Moses at his death, and he doesn't sound old at all. He climbs a mountain, his eyes were clear, his strength was THERE! I've seen videos of teachers climbing that mountain and it's a pretty steep gruelling climb for younger men.

Deut 34:1-
1 Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the Lord showed him the whole land—from Gilead to Dan,
2 all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the Mediterranean Sea,
3 the Negev and the whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar.
4 Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it.”
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said.
6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.



Elijah's last physical description is in 2 kings 1 here:

7 And he said unto them, What manner of man was he which came up to meet you, and told you these words?
8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.


The description of him going up in the chariot is the next chapter but my mental picture of the both of them is a blend of both these passages.

And of course there is the Transfiguration of Jesus at which Moses and Elijah appear described here in Luke9: 30-31

30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.
31 They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.

Which sounds like they both appear with Jesus also in a glorified form.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

I love it when various books on the Tribulation have them as weather beaten tough men of indeterminate age. I see them as older but not ancient. Muscular, forceful men ready to blast their enemies with fire, able to shout over a crowd and make everyone hear them whether they want to listen or not.

Here's a good description of Moses at his death, and he doesn't sound old at all. He climbs a mountain, his eyes were clear, his strength was THERE! I've seen videos of teachers climbing that mountain and it's a pretty steep gruelling climb for younger men.

Deut 34:1-
1 Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the Lord showed him the whole land—from Gilead to Dan,
2 all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the Mediterranean Sea,
3 the Negev and the whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar.
4 Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it.”
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said.
6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.



Elijah's last physical description is in 2 kings 1 here:

7 And he said unto them, What manner of man was he which came up to meet you, and told you these words?
8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.


The description of him going up in the chariot is the next chapter but my mental picture of the both of them is a blend of both these passages.

And of course there is the Transfiguration of Jesus at which Moses and Elijah appear described here in Luke9: 30-31

30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.
31 They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.

Which sounds like they both appear with Jesus also in a glorified form.

What about Elisha cursing kids to die because they were mocking him being bald , talk about escalating to 100 LOL !!

 

[Margery]

What about Elisha cursing kids to die because they were mocking him being bald , talk about escalating to 100 LOL !!

I always love that bit. Call me bad but it's so opposite of today. Can you imagine what Elisha would do on a modern woke campus????

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

I always love that bit. Call me bad but it's so opposite of today. Can you imagine what Elisha would do on a modern woke campus????

Yep Elisha wasn't playin LOL !!!

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

I love it when various books on the Tribulation have them as weather beaten tough men of indeterminate age. I see them as older but not ancient. Muscular, forceful men ready to blast their enemies with fire, able to shout over a crowd and make everyone hear them whether they want to listen or not.

Here's a good description of Moses at his death, and he doesn't sound old at all. He climbs a mountain, his eyes were clear, his strength was THERE! I've seen videos of teachers climbing that mountain and it's a pretty steep gruelling climb for younger men.

Deut 34:1-
1 Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the Lord showed him the whole land—from Gilead to Dan,
2 all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the Mediterranean Sea,
3 the Negev and the whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar.
4 Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it.”
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said.
6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.



Elijah's last physical description is in 2 kings 1 here:

7 And he said unto them, What manner of man was he which came up to meet you, and told you these words?
8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.


The description of him going up in the chariot is the next chapter but my mental picture of the both of them is a blend of both these passages.

And of course there is the Transfiguration of Jesus at which Moses and Elijah appear described here in Luke9: 30-31

30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.
31 They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.

Which sounds like they both appear with Jesus also in a glorified form.

ok i owe you an apology TT, that does say that physically they were still sort of physically strong.

Thanks for posting that Margery

 

[Margery]

Yep Elisha wasn't playin LOL !!!

There wouldn't be a safe space with enough crayons and colouring books to calm down the spectators/survivors after Elisha visited Harvard for example.