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1 Second After The Rapture

I agree that nothing must happen before the Rapture, but I believe the Bible states we will have clues that we are in the season of the Rapture.
I have two questions I would like someone to answer that might help me understand how there is no connection between the Rapture and Tribulation?

1) What is the purpose of the rapture? 🤔
2) How are we supposed to watch for it, if there are no signs? 🤔


1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1. To protect His Church from end times judgements.

2. I agree with you when you say the closer the signs are for the tribulation, that has to mean the rapture is that much closer. We are in the season.

Jack explains it better than I could this early in the morning

Question: As I read the passages in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6, it sounds like the second coming, and that the church will be here watching. Verses 9-10 sound like passages about salvation only, not necessarily about the wrath of the tribulation. Please help me understand these passages. Do they speak of the rapture?
Answer: If I read these two passages in a vacuum it sounds like you could be correct, but if I put them in the context of Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians, then you can’t be. In 1 and 2 Thessalonians the focus is the time of the 2nd Coming. In fact, it’s mentioned in every chapter of both letters for an average of once every 13 verses.

In 1 Thes 1:10 Paul indicated that Jesus will rescue us from the coming wrath. The Greek word translated from refers to both the time and place of the coming wrath and denotes a physical separation. If you believe the letter has significance beyond the Thessalonians and is meant for the Church in general, then the only wrath that the entire Church can be removed from both the time and place of is the Wrath of God at the end of the age.

The same is true in 1 Thes 5:9-10 where the context is clearly the Day of the Lord (1 Thes. 5:1-2). Therefore we can logically assume the wrath Paul was speaking about in both places is the wrath of God associated with the Day of the Lord.

 
I believe that the purpose of the Rapture is to rescue us from the Tribulation. If the Tribulation is not about to start, then what would the Rapture be rescuing us from??
If the purpose of the rapture is to save us from His end times judgements,(which it is) what would it matter when those judgements start? The end results would be the same, in that church will be saved from the tribulation.

Whatever the amount of time there is between these two events (could be minutes, weeks, months, or even years) is not considered the start of the tribulation.
 
Chuck Missler's teaches on it here: The Doctrine of Imminence - Chuck Missler (under 12 minutes)
I started to watch this and got to minute 1:31 of his message where he lists Bible verses that he says support "The Doctrine of Imminence". I looked them all up and did not get that view at all.

Not saying who is wrong and who is right, but I like to get things straight from the Bible, not someones view as many times I have found that to be incorrect. I would like for someone to show me a scripture or scriptures that clearly state the "The Doctrine of Imminence". I don't mean this as a challenge, but for my education, as I am willing to learn or be corrected.
🙂
 
1. To protect His Church from end times judgements.
OK, so we are on the same page with that. 👍

If the purpose of the Rapture as you well stated is to protect the Church from end time judgements, doesn't that mean that the judgements must be coming? If not, why would we need protection?

What is your answer to my second question below?
2) How are we supposed to watch for it, if there are no signs?
 
I started to watch this and got to minute 1:31 of his message where he lists Bible verses that he says support "The Doctrine of Imminence". I looked them all up and did not get that view at all.

Not saying who is wrong and who is right, but I like to get things straight from the Bible, not someones view as many times I have found that to be incorrect. I would like for someone to show me a scripture or scriptures that clearly state the "The Doctrine of Imminence". I don't mean this as a challenge, but for my education, as I am willing to learn or be corrected.
🙂
I dont believe there is a single verse that states the doctrine of imminence, but when several passages of scripture are taken together, and in context, its clear the rapture can happen at any time, and no other prophecy must happen first.
 
If the purpose of the rapture is to save us from His end times judgements,(which it is) what would it matter when those judgements start? The end results would be the same, in that church will be saved from the tribulation.

Whatever the amount of time there is between these two events (could be minutes, weeks, months, or even years) is not considered the start of the tribulation.
I will not dispute the possibility that God could indeed rescue his people from the Tribulation years before it happens, but I would suggest that God tends to wait until the last minute when he rescues his people so that every last one will be rescued.
 
I understand your point, but we don't know when the Tribulation will start either, as that also could start at any time.

Prophetically speaking there are a few things that must happen before Tribulation begins. Daniel tells us that a global govmint will be in place followed by the 10 kings. Those developments will happen before the start of Tribulation. We've got a thread on just that topic. I'm working on this post from my phone so can't link to the thread nor provide the prophecies... the best I can do is type with one thumb and hope that the spell checker doesn't change too many words...
 
I dont believe there is a single verse that states the doctrine of imminence, but when several passages of scripture are taken together, and in context, its clear the rapture can happen at any time, and no other prophecy must happen first.
That is fine, what are those several passages? 🤔
I have never said that anything had to happen before the Rapture. We agree on that point. 👍
 
Prophetically speaking there are a few things that must happen before Tribulation begins. Daniel tells us that a global govmint will be in place followed by the 10 kings. Those developments will happen before the start of Tribulation. We've got a thread on just that topic. I'm working on this post from my phone so can't link to the thread nor provide the prophecies... the best I can do is type with one thumb and hope that the spell checker doesn't change too many words...
Maybe what I meant was not clear. Sure we know of the signs of when the Tribulation is coming, but we currently do not know just when. That is what I meant.
The same as how we don't know just when the Rapture will happen.
🙂
 
I will not dispute the possibility that God could indeed rescue his people from the Tribulation years before it happens, but I would suggest that God tends to wait until the last minute when he rescues his people so that every last one will be rescued.

I agree with this. Given the timing of other events we read about in the Bible, it is reasonable to think that God will take the Body of Christ out of this world later rather than sooner.

Might the Rapture happen at the precise time that the 7 year covenant is confirmed? That's possible but it's easier to imagine that there will be some time between the two, and easy to present ideas as to why there will be a gap of unknown length.

Some think that the Rapture will set certain end times events in motion or facilitate those events that lead to the beginning of Tribulation. I personally don't think that's necessary but none-the-less it's a possibility.
 
I agree with this. Given the timing of other events we read about in the Bible, it is reasonable to think that God will take the Body of Christ out of this world later rather than sooner.

Might the Rapture happen at the precise time that the 7 year covenant is confirmed? That's possible but it's easier to imagine that there will be some time between the two, and easy to present ideas as to why there will be a gap of unknown length.

Some think that the Rapture will set certain end times events in motion or facilitate those events that lead to the beginning of Tribulation. I personally don't think that's necessary but none-the-less it's a possibility.
I don't disagree with anything that you have stated as a possibility, I have just been stating what I believe and why. 🙂
 
When I said "I believe the Rapture will not happen until everything that needs to be in place is in place." I meant that from God's perspective not mans. All we can do is to know what we believe is the season. So I may have not worded that correctly. God may think that everything is in place right now. I was just saying that from my perspective which certainly could be wrong, things that I believe need to be in place.

Is your understanding that the Rapture could have happened 200 years ago and has no connection to the Tribulation? 🤔

I understand your point, but we don't know when the Tribulation will start either, as that also could start at any time. So saying the Rapture will happen right before the Tribulation does not set conditions regarding when the Rapture will be. It just lets us know the season. If there is no connection between the Rapture and the Tribulation, how would we ever know the season? 🤔

My point again is what is the purpose of the Rapture? If the Rapture is not an escape from the Tribulation for Christians, then what is the point of it? I am a logical thinker and not saying I am right, but I can't understand why God would Rapture us as an escape if there is nothing to fear so to speak?

If you or someone can explain that, it might help me change my thinking. 🤔

God Bless!
:love:

Ah, I see how you meant that. I've tried to read all your answers in this thread and over in the other one on Imminence so I'll try to just hit the high points and I'll have to leave it there for a few days unless I find time and energy to go into it in depth.

I don't plan to change your thinking, - that is between you and God, I only want to explain why I think the way I do and that is based on my own reading of the Word, as well as reading good theologians with a pre trib, pre mill, grammatical, historical interpretation of the Bible and prophecy.

The Rapture is for the Church. The Tribulation is for the Jews. The two groups are separate and are dealt with by God in very separate times and ways. The Jews were cut off for a time so that we in the church could be grafted in, and when we are taken out of the way, the Jews will be grafted back into their own root stock. The church is here till the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, The Jews endure the Tribulation until they cry out to Jesus to come back and He returns for them in the Second Coming.

The ONLY connection that the Rapture has to the Tribulation is that the Rapture has to happen before that. Paul is quite clear on that point. It's in one of the scriptures that Chuck quotes. The AC whose covenant starts the Tribulation cannot show up till we go up. This is also connected to the way God deals with either the church or the Jews but not both at the same point in time.

So yes the Rapture could happen at any time. And it is not connected to the Tribulation except it's the precondition for the Tribulation. That can't happen till we are taken up out of the way as we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and He functions as the Restrainer during the church age. The AC can't show up to kick off the Trib till the Restrainer is out of the way.

Since that means they aren't linked except as a precondition, that means that Paul expecting the Rapture or any of the apostles and Christians down thru the past almost 2K years is not an issue. In fact for Paul's assurance that those of us who look for His glorious appearing to get a special crown- that means that crown which Paul said he was getting- had to be available to all thru the entire church age.

To your point about God not waiting to pour out His judgement your examples of Noah and Lot actually show there is a bit of time between the taking out of the righteous servants of God and the outpouring of wrath. And one more- Enoch also proves there can be a gap of time as God removes someone in order to deal with others.

Genesis 7 says that Noah went into the Ark 7 days ahead. That fact is repeated 3 times in v 4, 10 and 13 with different aspects each time. v 13 is saying That very day -the day Noah heard God's command and entered the ark. God shuts the door in v 17. This retelling of the same thing for emphasis is done from Genesis thru Revelation, and the subject is v 1-3 and again in 11-12 which functions as a date stamp, then the 3 retellings of this are from v 4 - 5 then another retelling in v 6- 10 and again starting at 13-17. The interjection from v 11- 12 is a date stamp of the event and doesn't change the sequence given 3 times on those other verses.

So this shows that there is a 7 day period of time between Noah entering the ark along with the animals, God closing the Door and the Flood beginning.

Lot- there was the time that it took for the angels to pull Lot and his wife and 2 daughters out of Sodom. Judgment was decided, and final but the hours between the arrival of the angels to pull Lot out and Lot getting far enough away that fire and brimstone could start raining down means a delay is actually Biblical.

Finally Enoch. He is often seen as a type of the church. He is neither Jew nor Gentile. He is taken up and out of the way several hundred years before the Flood judgment falls. In fact the point is often made that Enoch is raptured up and out while Noah is kept thru the judgment of the Flood on the Ark as a type of the Jewish believers in Messiah being kept in the wilderness in the place prepared for them after the midpoint of the Tribulation when the AC desecrates the Temple, the 2 Witnesses are killed then resurrected and the AC begins the final Jewish persecution and genocide.

And Enoch is a good example of the point of the Rapture. Why did God take Enoch?

NIV Genesis 5: 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

God took him because God wanted to. He walked faithfully is repeated twice. We are faithful not because of our own efforts, but the blood of Christ makes us perfect in God's eyes. We are the bride of Christ, dressed in white robes, washed and purified by His blood. The Jews are seen as the wife of Jehovah while the Church is the Bride of Christ.

The purpose of the Rapture has to do with the Jewish wedding customs in Jesus day. His disciples and Paul were well aware of the parallel and the types involved. I can go into that in depth another day perhaps but the short form is

The groom proposes, and offers a cup to the bride to be. If she takes and drinks it (communion anyone?) then she accepts his proposal.

He tells the bride to be that "I go to prepare a place for you"

He pays a price (the cross)

The bride is now more than a fiance and less than a married woman as she waits for up to 2 years while the groom is busy building a place for her. When she goes out, she wears a veil. She is to remain spotless and pure.

She is ALWAYS READY TO GO AT ANY TIME IN THOSE 2 YEARS BEFORE HER GROOM ARRIVES TO GET HER

If anyone asks the groom when the wedding is, the stock answer is ONLY MY FATHER KNOWS because the Father of the groom is the one who decides when the building is ready and the supper preparations are ready.

That wedding ceremony can begin when
The father says to his son GO GET YOUR BRIDE and this happened at night.

The groomsman would sound a trumpet to let the bride to give her a brief moment to get up, and be ready to go. She had her outfit all ready the whole time and her lamp was full of oil, the wick was trimmed, and ready every night.

The groom and his men would snatch her up out of her father's house and take her above the ground on a litter or a chair on poles to the father of the groom's house.

Let me repeat that. HER FEET DON'T TOUCH THE GROUND TILL SHE IS AT THE FATHER OF THE GROOM'S HOUSE

All the wedding guests would hear the commotion and get ready to meet them there.

The doors would be shut

FOR 7 DAYS the wedding feast would carry on.

Inside as soon as the ceremony was done, the groom would take the bride into the dwelling, and they would consummate the marriage. The friend of the groom (remember what John the Baptist said) would listen for the shout of the bridegroom that it was done, the bride was proven a virgin and the proof of her virginity- a bloody cloth would be waved as proof.

They would join the guests and feast for the full WEEK of SEVEN DAYS

The Rapture is a Jewish wedding feast for a Jewish man and his bride.
 
Ah, I see how you meant that. I've tried to read all your answers in this thread and over in the other one on Imminence so I'll try to just hit the high points and I'll have to leave it there for a few days unless I find time and energy to go into it in depth.

I don't plan to change your thinking, - that is between you and God

Wow, that was a lot. I don't usually read long answers, but I could see that you were really trying to respond to me as best you could and took a lot of time with your answer.

I will admit you are well studied and have some very good points! I could form a rebuttal, but as it does not really make that much difference, I would rather not continue to go back and forth. I have made my points and you have made yours. So that lets everyone decide on their own what they believe.

Great Job! 👍

God bless!
:love:
 
Wow, that was a lot. I don't usually read long answers, but I could see that you were really trying to respond to me as best you could and took a lot of time with your answer.

I will admit you are well studied and have some very good points! I could form a rebuttal, but as it does not really make that much difference, I would rather not continue to go back and forth. I have made my points and you have made yours. So that lets everyone decide on their own what they believe.

Great Job! 👍

God bless!
:love:
God bless you too dear brother! :love:

LOL you did realize this was one of my SHORT answers????? :lol: I wanted to touch on so many other interesting bits that might pertain but I'm feeling foggy and tired today.
 
LOL you did realize this was one of my SHORT answers????? :lol: I wanted to touch on so many other interesting bits that might pertain but I'm feeling foggy and tired today.

While I am not happy that you are feeling foggy and tired today for your sake, I am happy that you feel foggy and tired today for my sake, as I might not have read your response if it was much longer. LOL! :LOL:

I don't have a long attention span and can't easily understand anything that takes a while to make a point. That is why I hate long posts. I really have to concentrate very hard to truly understand a long post. Sometimes I will cheat and just scan for something I want to respond to. In which case I might miss an important point.

So I just told you of a weakness that I have. This is why I don't read many books and have to go slow and reread when I read the Bible. Anyway, if you do post something very long and I don't read it, just know it is nothing personal. It is not about you, but about me.

God Bless! :love:
 
In my mind I used to place the primary purpose of the rapture as removing the church from the earth so we won’t have to go through the tribulation. Now, in my mind the primary purpose of the rapture is to remove the Restrainer from the earth, so that God’s prophetic plan can commence for the Jews.
 
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