When I said "I believe the Rapture will not happen until everything that needs to be in place is in place." I meant that from God's perspective not mans. All we can do is to know what we believe is the season. So I may have not worded that correctly. God may think that everything is in place right now. I was just saying that from my perspective which certainly could be wrong, things that I believe need to be in place.
Is your understanding that the Rapture could have happened 200 years ago and has no connection to the Tribulation?
I understand your point, but we don't know when the Tribulation will start either, as that also could start at any time. So saying the Rapture will happen right before the Tribulation does not set conditions regarding when the Rapture will be. It just lets us know the season. If there is no connection between the Rapture and the Tribulation, how would we ever know the season?
My point again is what is the purpose of the Rapture? If the Rapture is not an escape from the Tribulation for Christians, then what is the point of it? I am a logical thinker and not saying I am right, but I can't understand why God would Rapture us as an escape if there is nothing to fear so to speak?
If you or someone can explain that, it might help me change my thinking.
God Bless!
Ah, I see how you meant that. I've tried to read all your answers in this thread and over in the other one on Imminence so I'll try to just hit the high points and I'll have to leave it there for a few days unless I find time and energy to go into it in depth.
I don't plan to change your thinking, - that is between you and God, I only want to explain why I think the way I do and that is based on my own reading of the Word, as well as reading good theologians with a pre trib, pre mill, grammatical, historical interpretation of the Bible and prophecy.
The Rapture is for the Church. The Tribulation is for the Jews. The two groups are separate and are dealt with by God in very separate times and ways. The Jews were cut off for a time so that we in the church could be grafted in, and when we are taken out of the way, the Jews will be grafted back into their own root stock. The church is here till the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, The Jews endure the Tribulation until they cry out to Jesus to come back and He returns for them in the Second Coming.
The ONLY connection that the Rapture has to the Tribulation is that the Rapture has to happen before that. Paul is quite clear on that point. It's in one of the scriptures that Chuck quotes. The AC whose covenant starts the Tribulation cannot show up till we go up. This is also connected to the way God deals with either the church or the Jews but not both at the same point in time.
So yes the Rapture could happen at any time. And it is not connected to the Tribulation except it's the precondition for the Tribulation. That can't happen till we are taken up out of the way as we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and He functions as the Restrainer during the church age. The AC can't show up to kick off the Trib till the Restrainer is out of the way.
Since that means they aren't linked except as a precondition, that means that Paul expecting the Rapture or any of the apostles and Christians down thru the past almost 2K years is not an issue. In fact for Paul's assurance that those of us who look for His glorious appearing to get a special crown- that means that crown which Paul said he was getting- had to be available to all thru the entire church age.
To your point about God not waiting to pour out His judgement your examples of Noah and Lot actually show there is a bit of time between the taking out of the righteous servants of God and the outpouring of wrath. And one more- Enoch also proves there can be a gap of time as God removes someone in order to deal with others.
Genesis 7 says that Noah went into the Ark 7 days ahead. That fact is repeated 3 times in v 4, 10 and 13 with different aspects each time. v 13 is saying That very day -the day Noah heard God's command and entered the ark. God shuts the door in v 17. This retelling of the same thing for emphasis is done from Genesis thru Revelation, and the subject is v 1-3 and again in 11-12 which functions as a date stamp, then the 3 retellings of this are from v 4 - 5 then another retelling in v 6- 10 and again starting at 13-17. The interjection from v 11- 12 is a date stamp of the event and doesn't change the sequence given 3 times on those other verses.
So this shows that there is a 7 day period of time between Noah entering the ark along with the animals, God closing the Door and the Flood beginning.
Lot- there was the time that it took for the angels to pull Lot and his wife and 2 daughters out of Sodom. Judgment was decided, and final but the hours between the arrival of the angels to pull Lot out and Lot getting far enough away that fire and brimstone could start raining down means a delay is actually Biblical.
Finally Enoch. He is often seen as a type of the church. He is neither Jew nor Gentile. He is taken up and out of the way several hundred years before the Flood judgment falls. In fact the point is often made that Enoch is raptured up and out while Noah is kept thru the judgment of the Flood on the Ark as a type of the Jewish believers in Messiah being kept in the wilderness in the place prepared for them after the midpoint of the Tribulation when the AC desecrates the Temple, the 2 Witnesses are killed then resurrected and the AC begins the final Jewish persecution and genocide.
And Enoch is a good example of the point of the Rapture. Why did God take Enoch?
NIV Genesis 5: 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
God took him because God wanted to. He walked faithfully is repeated twice. We are faithful not because of our own efforts, but the blood of Christ makes us perfect in God's eyes. We are the bride of Christ, dressed in white robes, washed and purified by His blood. The Jews are seen as the wife of Jehovah while the Church is the Bride of Christ.
The purpose of the Rapture has to do with the Jewish wedding customs in Jesus day. His disciples and Paul were well aware of the parallel and the types involved. I can go into that in depth another day perhaps but the short form is
The groom proposes, and offers a cup to the bride to be. If she takes and drinks it (communion anyone?) then she accepts his proposal.
He tells the bride to be that "I go to prepare a place for you"
He pays a price (the cross)
The bride is now more than a fiance and less than a married woman as she waits for up to 2 years while the groom is busy building a place for her. When she goes out, she wears a veil. She is to remain spotless and pure.
She is ALWAYS READY TO GO
AT ANY TIME IN THOSE 2 YEARS BEFORE HER GROOM ARRIVES TO GET HER
If anyone asks the groom when the wedding is, the stock answer is ONLY MY FATHER KNOWS because the Father of the groom is the one who decides when the building is ready and the supper preparations are ready.
That wedding ceremony can begin when
The father says to his son GO GET YOUR BRIDE and this happened at night.
The groomsman would sound a trumpet to let the bride to give her a brief moment to get up, and be ready to go. She had her outfit all ready the whole time and her lamp was full of oil, the wick was trimmed, and ready every night.
The groom and his men would snatch her up out of her father's house and take her above the ground on a litter or a chair on poles to the father of the groom's house.
Let me repeat that. HER FEET DON'T TOUCH THE GROUND TILL SHE IS AT THE FATHER OF THE GROOM'S HOUSE
All the wedding guests would hear the commotion and get ready to meet them there.
The doors would be shut
FOR 7 DAYS the wedding feast would carry on.
Inside as soon as the ceremony was done, the groom would take the bride into the dwelling, and they would consummate the marriage. The friend of the groom (remember what John the Baptist said) would listen for the shout of the bridegroom that it was done, the bride was proven a virgin and the proof of her virginity- a bloody cloth would be waved as proof.
They would join the guests and feast for the full WEEK of SEVEN DAYS
The Rapture is a Jewish wedding feast for a Jewish man and his bride.