Lordship Salvation, Part 3 (John 5:24) Andy Woods

[Andiamo]

Also how can someone believe in eternal security yet at the same time promote no assurance of security? What the heck?

 

[Amethyst]

Yes, he was speaking of himself, hoping it won't be true of him.

That's the problem with the "T" in Tulip.
Total depravity doesn't give anyone a choice of believing on Jesus. It requires God to regenerate them first (He picks and chooses who to regenerate first) before they can believe on Him.

And if you question that, you are questioning the very Sovereignty of God.

 

[Eric Nicholas]

Also how can someone believe in eternal security yet at the same time promote no assurance of security? What the heck?

All the more reason I reject it. It's a cyclone of confusion and cuts against the beautiful simplicity of our saving faith in Christ alone. Their version is an entire step by step program that is ongoing and you never know if you made the cut. It has that in common with Islam.

And that's whatever re the quote, as it is in their doctrine anyway, whether he was talking about himself or not.

I guess one could appeal to it not being him but he used "I" a bit much and when you combine it with their admission of you can't really "know", it makes it all the more believable re RC.

Regardless, whether he was talking about himself or not, he was talking about at least someone who thought they were saved, from the very depths of their soul, but woke up in hell an eternally deceived and eternally dead person. It doesn't let anything or anyone off the hook.

 

[Andiamo]

Yes, he was speaking of himself, hoping it won't be true of him.

That's the problem with the "T" in Tulip.
Total depravity doesn't give anyone a choice of believing on Jesus. It requires God to regenerate them first (He picks and chooses who to regenerate first) before they can believe on Him.

And if you question that, you are questioning the very Sovereignty of God.

I see…so many calvinists could doubt their salvation because they can doubt that God actually caused them to truly believe and so their belief on their own isn’t good enough. Right?

 

[Andiamo]

I find it hard to believe he wasn’t talking about himself there. I think during sermon prep, even I could see in advance how those “I” statements of his could be misconstrued.

 

[Amethyst]

I see…so many calvinists could doubt their salvation because they can doubt that God actually caused them to truly believe and so their belief on their own isn’t good enough. Right?

Yes.
I will say there are many people caught up in calvinist churches who are unaware of all the points of TULIP.
They read scripture plainly for what it is (John 3:16 for example) and don't read much into the "Perseverance of the saints" fine print.
So they may never question their salvation.

Also, when the Lordship goes hand in hand with the calvinism, they are always looking at their fruit to know whether God really regenerated them or not. Rather than resting on "whosoever believeth."

 

[Eric Nicholas]

I see…so many calvinists could doubt their salvation because they can doubt that God actually caused them to truly believe and so their belief on their own isn’t good enough. Right?

Jumping in, and they will happily tell you God is to be glorified in the ones predestined to be condemned. James White has said that everything, not verbatim. Their tradition makes God the most fearsome being in all the wrong ways.

It's not a reverent loving fear, just a morbid satanic fear. A true mad god. Picking and chosing who will live forever, who will be self (God-caused) deceived and who will outright and happily reject him. It makes God the author of everything hideous you can imagine, yet they will also say the person predestined is responsible for their downfall. It is a seriously hideous worldview. Monstrous.

Ultimately, none of them will know they have made it until they have crossed over. Hence, the person who thought they were saved, waking up in hell. That is talking about anyone, including them by their own admission.

Their god is one who pulls out the magnifying glass and burns up the ants he so chooses. The ants that are being burned up and the ones watching the onslaught are to praise him for doing so. I'd ask anyone, is any of that Christ crucified? It sounds like a horror tale and it is.

 

[Andiamo]

Jumping in, and they will happily tell you God is to be glorified in the ones predestined to be condemned. James White has said that everything, not verbatim. Their tradition makes God the most fearsome being in all the wrong ways.

It's not a reverent loving fear, just a morbid satanic fear. A true mad god. Picking and chosing who will live forever, who will be self (God-caused) deceived and who will outright and happily reject him. It makes God the author of everything hideous you can imagine, yet they will also say the person predestined is responsible for their downfall. It is a seriously hideous worldview. Monstrous.

Ultimately, none of them will know they have made it until they have crossed over. Hence, the person who thought they were saved, waking up in hell. That is talking about anyone, including them by their own admission.

Their god is one who pulls out the magnifying glass and burns up the ants he so chooses. The ants that are being burned up and the ones watching the onslaught are to praise him for doing so. I'd ask anyone, is any of that Christ crucified? It sounds like a horror tale and it is.

That’s the one point of Calvinism that have always I flat out rejected from the minute I heard it. To think that people were created for destruction by God’s own choosing. It’s sick. And those four-point Calvinists who drop this petal on their TULIP, I just don’t understand. If you see that one point is blatantly unscriptural how can you accept the rest of this doctrine?
I could agree with some of their points IF they were adhering to what those statements actually mean scripturally, except they apparently do not. So I too reject it altogether.

 

[Eric Nicholas]

That’s the one point of Calvinism that have always I flat out rejected from the minute I heard it. To think that people were created for destruction by God’s own choosing. It’s sick. And those four-point Calvinists who drop this petal on their TULIP, I just don’t understand. If you see that one point is blatantly unscriptural how can you accept the rest of this doctrine?
I could agree with some of their points IF they were adhering to what those statements actually mean scripturally, except they apparently do not. So I too reject it altogether.

Oh, I get it. I have amen'd some of it, too. John and R.C. were my favs, especially RC. I loved their surefire this is how it is preaching. No gimmicks. No strobe lights. Just pulpit preaching. I miss it a lot a lot. I just couldn't hang with it though, for all dreadful reasons mentioned. It just was a bridge way too far. When the God I loved started being spoken of and revered as a monster, one to be glorified for predetermining Hell on poor people that never had a chance, that's when I cut the cord.

With all of that said, to this day, I still want to watch RC's preaching. I loved it that much. He got me through some really dark days when I was bedridden and barely human, and I'll always appreciate that.

 

[Andiamo]

My friend still insists that he wasn’t talking about himself. She said he was saying “I” to avoid saying “you.” I told her he could have said “a person” or “someone.” I think she must listen to his sermons even though she isn’t Calvinist. I’m too tired to argue with her and don’t feel knowledgeable enough about Calvinism to bring her up to speed. Oh well - she will have to discover for herself. She is very concerned with living a holy life so I’m sure that is what draws her to his sermons. Sooner or later he will get her discernment up I am sure.
I have listed to Sproul a little in the past and he was very likable and humble. I think that’s what draws people to him.
Thanks Eric & Amethyst for filling me in. It’s even more convoluted than I thought.

 

[mattfivefour]

Jumping in, and they will happily tell you God is to be glorified in the ones predestined to be condemned. James White has said that everything, not verbatim. Their tradition makes God the most fearsome being in all the wrong ways.

It's not a reverent loving fear, just a morbid satanic fear. A true mad god. Picking and chosing who will live forever, who will be self (God-caused) deceived and who will outright and happily reject him. It makes God the author of everything hideous you can imagine, yet they will also say the person predestined is responsible for their downfall. It is a seriously hideous worldview. Monstrous.

Ultimately, none of them will know they have made it until they have crossed over. Hence, the person who thought they were saved, waking up in hell. That is talking about anyone, including them by their own admission.

Their god is one who pulls out the magnifying glass and burns up the ants he so chooses. The ants that are being burned up and the ones watching the onslaught are to praise him for doing so. I'd ask anyone, is any of that Christ crucified? It sounds like a horror tale and it is.

You are absolutely correct, brother. The God of Calvinism is not the same as the God of the Bible. In fact, if God were as the Calvinists claim, then He holds us to a different standard than He holds Himself. He tells us to not consider ourselves, to not be partial towards others (in other words not favor one over another), to hold others better than ourselves, to love everyone and to forgive whoever wrongs us, even if that person continues to be hateful. Yet He Himself only loves a select few? He Himself holds the sins of those who sin against Him without any possibility of forgiveness, unless they are among His specially chosen few? And He Himself denies us the free will He claims we have? No thanks. That's not the God who loves me. That's not the God who saved me. And that's not the God who is clearly and thoroughly described in the Bible.

Calvinism perverts the image of God Almighty, and thus it is a blasphemous doctrine straight from the pit of Hell.

 

[Eric Nicholas]

My friend still insists that he wasn’t talking about himself. She said he was saying “I” to avoid saying “you.” I told her he could have said “a person” or “someone.” I think she must listen to his sermons even though she isn’t Calvinist. I’m too tired to argue with her and don’t feel knowledgeable enough about Calvinism to bring her up to speed. Oh well - she will have to discover for herself. She is very concerned with living a holy life so I’m sure that is what draws her to his sermons. Sooner or later he will get her discernment up I am sure.
I have listed to Sproul a little in the past and he was very likable and humble. I think that’s what draws people to him.
Thanks Eric & Amethyst for filling me in. It’s even more convoluted than I thought.

Eh, what can you? I don't like to argue. I'll still do it, but at this point in my life, I don't at all look forward to it or enjoy it. And I much rather it be in person so the other person can see and hear what I sound like etc., as the motivation wouldn't be as mistaken. It can be hard to get the humanity to come through the text and it's too easy to have misunderstandings. But that's inherent in text. Oh well.

But the thing is, considering their set of beliefs, What RC said can apply to absolutely anyone, including RC, so he inescapably and certainly was talking about himself because it applies to everyone. Ultimately, God will decide and they will glorify Him either way, hence, "no just complaint on Hell". And they won't know until the cross over, hence waking up in Hell surprised and weeping.

And again, a slew of popular, well-known Calvinists have come out and said they could be "among the deceived". Your friend denying he was talking about himself is missing the point. He could be talking about anyone, including himself because ultimately, God decides who makes it and who doesn't and He predestined that fact long before we ever blinked.

There is no choice in Calvinism. And if the House stacks the cards against you, and deals you Hell from eternity past, you're to make no complaint as your destruction and damnation is for God's glory. I don't know how they sleep at night.

 

[Eric Nicholas]

You are absolutely correct, brother. The God of Calvinism is not the count of God of the Bible. In fact, if God were as the Calvinists claim, then he holds us to a different standard than He holds Himself. He tells us to not consider ourselves, to not be partial towards others (in other words not favor one over another), to hold others better than ourselves, to love everyone and to forgive whoever wrongs us, even if that person continues to be hateful. Yet He Himself only loves a select few? He Himself holds the sins of those who sin against Him without any possibility of forgiveness, unless they are among His specially chosen few? And He Himself denies us the free will He claims we have? No thanks. That's not the God who loves me. That's not the God who saved me. And that's not the God who is clearly and thoroughly described in the Bible.

Calvinism perverts the image of God Almighty, and thus it is a blasphemous doctrine straight from the pit of Hell.

Amen. It's the scariest thought there is!

 

[Andy C]

Modern day five point Calvinism (TULIP) is a cancer spreading quickly throughout the church. Good biblical discernment is the chemo to fight off that deadly disease.

 

[Andiamo]

But the thing is, considering their set of beliefs, What RC said can apply to absolutely anyone, including RC, so he inescapably and certainly was talking about himself because it applies to everyone. Ultimately, God will decide and they will glorify Him either way, hence, "no just complaint on Hell". And they won't know until the cross over, hence waking up in Hell surprised and weeping.

And again, a slew of popular, well-known Calvinists have come out and said they could be "among the deceived". Your friend denying he was talking about himself is missing the point. He could be talking about anyone, including himself because ultimately, God decides who makes it and who doesn't and He predestined that fact long before we ever blinked.

Going to cement this into my brain in case she ever brings it up in person.

 

[Andiamo]

Amen. It's the scariest thought there is!

Thanks you for everything you personally shared because it has really driven it home for me that I’m just not going to allow any Calvinist preaching into my ears, ever. The sermon by a Calvinist may seem really good but I’m just not going to take the chance of losing my joy and peace because of something they may allude to.
Though I desire to walk a Holy and separated life, my faith, ability to do that and even the desire for that is held in the cross and the cross alone. For every degree of work I’m putting on myself is a degree that I’m not having faith in the cross. I have had a real problem with beating myself up all the time because I constantly come up short of who I wish I were but I realize that I need to stop trying so hard and just surrender and submit which seems like the opposite of what I need to do but is exactly what I need to do. I hope to gain a greater sense of His safety and then no accusers csn beat me up even my own voice. Thank You Lord that nothing is in my own power because if it were then I wouldn’t be depending on Your Power that you died on the cross for me to partake in.

 

[Andiamo]

As a matter of fact I think I’m going to do a big review study on the Cross and our position of sabbath rest. Thanks Eric you really ministered to me.

 

[Andy C]

Calvinism at its root belief:

Granddaughter: Grandpa, can I go to church with you on Sunday.

Grandpa: Sure sweetie, that would be great.

Granddaughter: Will I be able to become saved, and have eternal life?

Grandpa: You will learn about eternal life from our pastor, you can pray to be saved, but you may still end up in hell because God did not choose you. You see sweetie, God chose some to spend eternity with Him, and all the rest have no choice, nothing they do or believe will lead them to eternal life with God.

 

[Eric Nicholas]

As a matter of fact I think I’m going to do a big review study on the Cross and our position of sabbath rest. Thanks Eric you really ministered to me.

You are most welcome, Andi!

 

[Amethyst]

Thanks you for everything you personally shared because it has really driven it home for me that I’m just not going to allow any Calvinist preaching into my ears, ever. The sermon by a Calvinist may seem really good but I’m just not going to take the chance of losing my joy and peace because of something they may allude to.
Though I desire to walk a Holy and separated life, my faith, ability to do that and even the desire for that is held in the cross and the cross alone. For every degree of work I’m putting on myself is a degree that I’m not having faith in the cross. I have had a real problem with beating myself up all the time because I constantly come up short of who I wish I were but I realize that I need to stop trying so hard and just surrender and submit which seems like the opposite of what I need to do but is exactly what I need to do. I hope to gain a greater sense of His safety and then no accusers csn beat me up even my own voice. Thank You Lord that nothing is in my own power because if it were then I wouldn’t be depending on Your Power that you died on the cross for me to partake in.

I have the same issues as you know, per the Rewards thread.

But for others who are the same and then to be told on top of it, well maybe you arent even one of the chosen, would just be devastating.