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ADOPTION (AT THE RAPTURE): THE MOST IMPORTANT UNDER-TAUGHT DOCTRINE IN THE CHURCH

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WIth all due respect, i don't buy into the argument that we are all children of the devil if we don't believe in Jesus.

The whole point of Satan being bound for a 1000 years is to prove that it's mans own heart that is evil and not because of Satan or being his adopted children.
This is not my argument - it is God's. You have to decide if you agree with God or not and not me. I am just quoting God...

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one.

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

Acts 13:10
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.
 
Adrian, you want me to race ahead, but you give a thumbs up to this...
Spartan Sprinter said:


WIth all due respect, i don't buy into the argument that we are all children of the devil if we don't believe in Jesus.

The whole point of Satan being bound for a 1000 years is to prove that it's mans own heart that is evil and not because of Satan or being his adopted children.


Adrian, how can you give a thumbs up to this? It is a direct contradiction of the apostles teaching and it adds to the confusion I am trying to deal with?

You know this...


Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one.

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

Acts 13:10
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.

Brother, in love I have to say this, you are giving a thumbs up to obvious deception and adding to confusion in this thread. Why is this happening?
 
It is my opinion that these concepts are just difficult for us humans to understand in general because it goes against all human logic and rationale. It is spiritual.

For instance, we are called and predestined yet we still have free will to choose. Do we choose God or did God choose us? God knew us before we were born. He knows what we will do before we do it. God chose us, but we still have a choice.

[Gen 22:10-13 NASB95] 10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." 13 Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind [him] a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.

"Now I know?" But didn't God already know? Yes He did. But at that point in time He experienced it. Mind bending stuff.

It helps me thinking about how God is outside of time. God sees my past, present, and future all at the same time. Yet there is one MOMENT in time that we make our choice and God "knows" past, present, and future what that choice means. So the moment we believe we are adopted but the adoption isn't "realized" (within our finite realm of time) until a certain point yet God sees it past, present, and future. This is why it is a spiritual thing.

Don't know if that makes sense lol.
You are exactly correct, we are dealing with the muilti dimension thinking of God who is outside of linear time when we are locked into one dimension awaiting to go into the next.

I covered this in the previous thread but I can't find it now so I don't know if it has been deleted...

ALREADY, NOT YET

Article by David Briones Professor, Westminster Theological Seminary


ABSTRACT:
For now, Christians live in a great theological tension: we already possess every spiritual blessing in Christ, but we do not experience the fullness of these blessings yet. In one sense, we are already adopted, redeemed, sanctified, and saved; in another, these experiences are not yet fully ours. Underneath this theological and practical tension are the two comings of Christ. In his first coming, he inaugurated the last days; in his second coming, he will complete them. In the meantime, we live for now in “the overlap of the ages.”

...The Christian life is a lot like that. It is an already-but-not-yet sort of existence, where believers are caught within what Oscar Cullmann calls “the dialectic of present and future.”1

Already, Not Yet

What do I mean? According to Scripture, believers are

already adopted in Christ (Romans 8:15), but not yet adopted (Romans 8:23);

already redeemed in Christ (Ephesians 1:7), but not yet redeemed (Ephesians 4:30);

already sanctified in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:2), but not yet sanctified (1 Thessalonians 5:23–24);

already saved in Christ (Ephesians 2:8), but not yet saved (Romans 5:9);

already raised with Christ (Ephesians 2:6), but not yet raised (1 Corinthians 15:52).

We live in a theological tension. By faith in Christ, all of these spiritual blessings are ours already, but the full enjoyment of these blessings is not yet ours. This is the life of faith: “the assurance of things hoped for” in the future, and “the conviction of things not seen” in the present (Hebrews 11:1). This is life between the times.

Underlying this theological tension is a theological structure: the already–not yet framework. It is, according to Cullmann, “the silent presupposition that lies behind all that [the New Testament] says.”2 The New Testament authors thought, wrote, and lived through the grid of this biblical framework or mindset. It determined the way they spoke about God’s dealings in this world in light of the world to come.

END QUOTE

It appears on my PC that my links to a Bible dictionary and a Bible Encyclopedia have been deleted. If this is the case, it is most unfortunate and we have to go over this again. :(
 
Adrian, you want me to race ahead, but you give a thumbs up to this...
Spartan Sprinter said:


WIth all due respect, i don't buy into the argument that we are all children of the devil if we don't believe in Jesus.

The whole point of Satan being bound for a 1000 years is to prove that it's mans own heart that is evil and not because of Satan or being his adopted children.


Adrian, how can you give a thumbs up to this? It is a direct contradiction of the apostles teaching and it adds to the confusion I am trying to deal with?

You know this...


Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one.

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

Acts 13:10
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.

Brother, in love I have to say this, you are giving a thumbs up to obvious deception.
So you're accusing me of deception are you?
 
So you're accusing me of deception are you?
Unfair and incorrect. You name is not Adrian. Please examine the post I made to you and you decide what to do with it and don't go beyond what I posted to you.

If I make an accusation in love that you are teaching error, you'll know all about it.
 
Unfair and incorrect. You name is not Adrian. Please examine the post I made to you and you decide what to do with it and don't go beyond what I posted to you.

If I make an accusation in love that you are teaching error, you'll know all about it.
All i am saying is i disagree with your position about everyone who isn't a beleiver is a child of the devil.

I'm not preaching anything to anyone, stop being so legalistic.

The gospel is simple message,not some sort of pythagoras theorem about the adoption process.

This is my final say to you, i'm not interested in having scholarly debates.
 
All i am saying is i disagree with your position about everyone who isn't a beleiver is a child of the devil.

I'm not preaching anything to anyone, stop being so legalistic.

The gospel is simple message,not some sort of pythagoras theorem about the adoption process.

This is my final say to you, i'm not interested in having scholarly debates.
I said you were not teaching. Now you are telling me you are not teaching. We are agreed on that, are we not?

So how am I being legalistic?

Yes, the gospel is simple, but the full doctrine of salvation is not.

14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace,15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand 2Pet.3

Hebrews 5:11
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain.

Let us be a peace with one another and season our conversation with salt. Col.4:6

There is a time and place for iron to sharpen iron and this is not the time for you so I agree entirely that you should not be involved in scholarly debating. We are in blood covenant together, you are saved and adopted and heaven bound. There is nothing more essential than that other than having Him as first love, and that is all that is needed.

Peace and blessings.

Maranatha!
 
Adrian, please allow me to address the subject in the way I want to at the speed I want to for the reasons stated below.

You are at liberty to come back at a later date and catch up.

If I do as you request, then I am guaranteed to cause more confusion and this is not how any doctrine is taught. I shall be addressing matters of law and without that foundation no superstructure can be built.

In the former thread I joined you posted regarding end time events...

"But we don't need to know anything other than this: The Lord God Almighty is in full control. Our lives are united with Christ's; our futures are secure; we are merely pilgrims in this world, journeying toward our eternal homeland under the protection of the Almighty One and performing the role of His ambassadors as we go."

This is not what Jesus taught.

Yes, as a condensed version it is true, but I had to give a lengthy post to show what Jesus commanded us to be on watching for and what is unfolding in the world. I had to respond with ...

I am not 'taking issue' with Adrian regarding this quote, but rather offering my experience. Does God expect us to know the difference between the last days that began with Jesus, and the time of the end that began with 1948, and the seal of Daniel being opened when the 4th Kingdom rises. I think so, because the news is laden with proofs the God of the Bible has outlined everything that is going to happen.

Then Adrian you responded with ...

Brother, after an initial read I basically agree with your entire post.

Following that, you and I had a lengthy back and forth on whether adoption was complete, or if we are now in a state of HOPE for what is to come.

Initially you disagreed, and then you changed your mind.

Unless there is something wrong with my Internet connection, all that discussion has been deleted. That means anyone new to this thread doesn't have that information.

If all my posts from that point on have been deleted, may I ask why? I am not saying they have been - I am saying I can't see them. It looks like the whole back and forth has been deleted and arriving at the conclusion is missing.

That means I am back to square one here with people confused about adoption being both completed and yet to come when you ended up agreeing that adoption is both a present reality and yet to be fulfilled in the future.

I had Chris deleting my posts and I hope I am not back to that scenario again. Please, I am not accusing you of deleting my posts... not yet. They are missing on my PC and I need to quote you.

Did you or another admin delete them? These are my posts. If they were deleted can I have an explanation please?

Already this thread has gone backwards into the discussion you and I had reached a conclusion on and I can't direct anyone to our discussion, so I have to cover old ground.

Having said all that, it is impossible for me to jump ahead as you wish me to do without leaving many sheep confused, and no doubt you and I will once again spend many posts going back and forward to get this right.

This is your home, and I am your guest. If I have permission to post at my speed then let me do so and don't delete any of my posts please, especially when I am responding to you... if that has happened , I need to know it has and why our conversations were deleted.

I have been teaching for exactly 50 years, and I build at my speed and attempt to bring everyone with me. Your speed is fine for you, but it is pastor superspeed for many here if I accelerate to where you want me to be at, and I can't do that for the building will collapse. Already it is collapsing and it seems I can't referendce our discussions.

Can you please accept my speed and let me know if my posts have been deleted and if so why and why was I not informed? Again I am not saying they were, I just can't see them.

The last post I remember seeing before I shut down my PC was :This thread is WOW! It too along with other posts are missing and I am confused. Is it a server error? Deleted posts? A bug in my connection?
Nothing has been deleted. The previous thread remains at Don't Be Deceived: The Rapture Happens First where it has always been and all posts are there intact. I have absolutely no idea why you can't see it, Hugh. Perhaps you are having a computer problem?

As to our discussions, the problem is that I find your teaching style very hard to follow. You say a lot of good things; but mixed in there are things I do not agree with. For example, you take verses that I believe speak of people's actions and attitudes placing them in the same category as Satan, aligned with his cause, and you use those verses to support the view that all who are not Christ's are in fact children of the devil. If this is true, then you have to agree with Calvin's total depravity argument. This I refuse to do because it is incorrect. Demonstratively so. Additionally, there are other things that I agree with in general, but not necessarily in every specific.

As you are well aware, brother, exegesis is not always simple. So, I am trying not to be argumentative or to continually take issue with things here and there because I really want you to get to the point you are building to. But, with sincere respect, you are insisting on employing a rather pedantic style with which you are obviously comfortable. I am not. Nevertheless, in the interest of opening up Scripture in a deeper way, I want you to be able to continue with your lesson to its completion. So I'm going to step back for a while until you finish your "building" and then I can see the finished product-- the concluding points of your teaching. I am trusting that there is a major payoff in terms of stronger faith and security at the end of this journey.

And to the others here who have been reading the posts in this thread and the previous one, and who are having their simple faith disturbed, I suggest you view everything you read here from the secure standpoint of the fact that you are saved, you are God's child, and there is nothing further that you need to do in order to be either of those things. Hugh's purpose is not to teach some strange new doctrine, or to tell you that your beliefs are incorrect; it is hopefully to shed even more light on the biblical doctrine of adoption for the purpose of giving you greater security in your standing with God. So let's hang in there and allow him to develop his points.
 
Nothing has been deleted. The previous thread remains at Don't Be Deceived: The Rapture Happens First where it has always been and all posts are there intact. I have absolutely no idea why you can't see it, Hugh. Perhaps you are having a computer problem?

As to our discussions, the problem is that I find your teaching style very hard to follow. You say a lot of good things; but mixed in there are things I do not agree with. For example, you take verses that I believe speak of people's actions and attitudes placing them in the same category as Satan, aligned with his cause, and you use those verses to support the view that all who are not Christ's are in fact children of the devil. If this is true, then you have to agree with Calvin's total depravity argument. This I refuse to do because it is incorrect. Demonstratively so. Additionally, there are other things that I agree with in general, but not necessarily in every specific.

As you are well aware, brother, exegesis is not always simple. So, I am trying not to be argumentative or to continually take issue with things here and there because I really want you to get to the point you are building to. But, with sincere respect, you are insisting on employing a rather pedantic style with which you are obviously comfortable. I am not. Nevertheless, in the interest of opening up Scripture in a deeper way, I want you to be able to continue with your lesson to its completion. So I'm going to step back for a while until you finish your "building" and then I can see the finished product-- the concluding points of your teaching. I am trusting that there is a major payoff in terms of stronger faith and security at the end of this journey.

And to the others here who have been reading the posts in this thread and the previous one, and who are having their simple faith disturbed, I suggest you view everything you read here from the secure standpoint of the fact that you are saved, you are God's child, and there is nothing further that you need to do in order to be either of those things. Hugh's purpose is not to teach some strange new doctrine, or to tell you that your beliefs are incorrect; it is hopefully to shed even more light on the biblical doctrine of adoption for the purpose of giving you greater security in your standing with God. So let's hang in there and allow him to develop his points.
Adrian, many thanks for your clarification that my posts have not been deleted. I really appreciate that for you assured me they wouldn't be deleted. I have rebooted my PC, closed and opened here several times, checked other websites and everything is normal except our discussion is still deleted. It can't be my PC. There must be some kind of server error.

On a more important matter, I don't know everything, none of us do and I don't want to get this wrong so I need to question you so I know if I need to correct my viewpoint, for we both seem to find each other difficult to follow at times. I have no interest in Calvinism, but you know the saying that when the plain reading of Scripture makes perfect sense, look of no other sense or we end up with nonsense.

The plain reading here is what John describes as obvious. but you dismiss this as my subscribing to Calvinism, which I do not. Your logic seems back to front here...

10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious

You state: For example, you take verses that I believe speak of people's actions and attitudes placing them in the same category as Satan, aligned with his cause, and you use those verses to support the view that all who are not Christ's are in fact children of the devil.

No! It is the complete opposite. As a result of being children of the devil we carry out sinful actions. We don't become children of the devil by sinful actions, or if we do, then how many sinful actions do we need to make? One?

Jesus gave the hidden desires of the Pharisees as evidence they were the children of the devil. Jesus began before their actions, with their desires that preceded their actions...

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. Matt.13

How does anyone become a child of the devil in your opinion? At this point they had not murdered Jesus, but he knew their inner desires and this was the proof Jesus offered that the devil was their father. Jesus continued...

He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 4

From the beginning, before the devil sinned, he was already a murderer when iniquity was found in him. Jesus is referring to the iniquity of the Pharisees before they too acted, and by their desires that only He could read, He found this to be the evidence they were already under the fatherhood of the devil.

Now if I have this wrong, I want to be corrected.

Can you explain to me please your understanding of these passages? How does anyone end up with the devil as their father?
 
I really appreciate that for you assured me they wouldn't be deleted. I have rebooted my PC, closed and opened here several times, checked other websites and everything is normal except our discussion is still deleted. It can't be my PC. There must be some kind of server error.

Nothing has been deleted in this thread or in the other: Don't Be Deceived: The Rapture Happens First. We haven't had a server error recently and have never had a server error where posts have disappeared.
 
Brother in the Philippines, I did read the article that you provided, albeit quickly, and I did not disagree with anything in the article.
The point of my confusion stemmed from the way your original post was worded, and from the thread title - which seem to imply that we aren’t fully adopted yet.
But I think I understand what you are trying to say….the fact that we are adopted has an effect in Heaven and will affect our eternal lives and the whole heavenly dynamic.
But you do agree that we are fully, 100% adopted now. Is that correct?
I need this question answered before I invest myself any further into this teaching.
Please understand that some of us have been exposed in the past to teachings that spiritually damaged us. We need affirmation of your agreement with the basic Bible truths before you can expect us to sit and passively receive what you are teaching .*
 
WALKING BEFORE RUNNING IN CIRCLES: WE KEEP BACKTRACKING SO LET'S PUT THIS PART TO BED ONCE AND FOR ALL ABOUT FUTURE FULFILLMENT REGARDING ADOPTION.

We all believe in dual prophetic fulfillment, a present and a future fulfillment even if we don't realize it yet, or understand the extent this it is in the Bible. If I don't put this misunderstanding to bed then there is no such thing as a future completion of adoption at the rapture. Let me prove your own belief to you.

We all know the Passover has a dual fulfillment, so we are already on the road to grasping how important this present and future fulfillment is in Scripture. The Passover was about the hope of a greater redemption fulfilled in the future, however for the Jews, they still believe there is no future fulfillment as they look back the their redemption from Egypt. Most of the church is not taught the details of this fulfillment in the feast when the Jews...

1) Search their home diligently to make sure there is not even the tiniest piece of yeast in the home. In Scripture yeast represents sin. Jesus was tried three times and no sin was found in Him, even though they attempted to frame Him with false witnesses.

2) Unleavened bread is baked and in the process it comes out from the heat with brown heat stripes and pierced holes, just as Jesus body was striped and pierced.

3) Then the bread is placed in three separate pockets, not one nor four, but exactly three representing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

4) The middle piece of bread is then removed, broken in pieces, wrapped in white linen and hidden, just as Jesus' body was broken for us and hidden in the grave.

5) Then the children have to go search for the hidden broken bread and the child who finds it receives a prize just as we receive the prize of God when we find Jesus.

6) Then the broken pieces are shared around the family and eaten just as we all share in the broken body of Jesus.

7) The red wine is drunk representing the blood of Jesus.

8) Lamb is consumed just as Jesus said we must eat of His flesh and drink His blood. In our remembrance of Jesus' death till He comes the bread represents His body, though it tends to be a piece of loaf, it does the purpose.

9) Before the destruction of the temple, the high priest took a lamb, and it must be spotless and perfect, and tied it to the altar at exactly 9 a.m. leaving it in discomfort just as Jesus was tied and nailed to the cross at that exact time.

10) Six hours later, exactly when Jesus gave up the ghost, the high priest sacrificed the lamb and put its blood on the mercy seat.

Not many churches teach these details which make it seemingly impossible not to see Jesus is the perfect fulfillment, yet two things happen...

i) Paul wrote the Jews are under spiritual stupor for the moment. They just can't see it.'

ii) Most of the church attendees know more about chocolate bunnies and Eater eggs and painting hard boiled eggs and rolling them down hills than what I just wrote. There is a lot of spiritual stupor in the church too.

I would expect that all of us are in agreement that when the Jews were commanded to celebrate this feast they were looking back to their redemption in Egypt by the blood of animals when the feast was as Paul described all the feasts, shadows of what is to come with the fulfillment in Christ (Col.2:17).

There is nothing strange about all the doctrines of the faith reaching their climax in heaven, but where did dual fulfillment in prophecy first begin? It began before sin in the garden! Yes, the Bible opens and closes with dual fulfillment, for it is a constant theme and not unique to adoption. Let's go to the garden of Eden.

Before the fall God said to Adam, "In the day you eat thereof" meaning, I know you are going to sin, not if you happen to eat of it...

...dying you shall die.

If the translators had left is as it was written and not considered repetition as a device to show emphasis, then we would see two deaths were prophesied. On the day Adam sinned, spiritually he died. The Hebrew Bible uses pictograms to show the story and each letter has a numerical value. A day is both represented by 1 and 1000.

Adam lived to the ripe old age of 969, he did not complete one day that is given in prophecy as 1,000 years, so Adam died as we do, for we are dead in trespasses and sins until we are made alive in Christ and yet this body of sin has a limited life expectancy and is vulnerable to sickness, and we will all die as Adam did, apart from those who are alive at the rapture and then later at the second coming.

Incidentally, Chinese is the 2nd oldest language in the world, and it also uses pictograms and is based on the Hebrew alphabet as well. It records the story of Adam and Eve's sin and both Hebrew and Chinese pictograms show Adam being clothed in either light or flame, but on the day Adam sinned the light faded and they saw they were naked and ashamed and hid from God. There wasn't a nudist colony in heaven while all the angels and Jesus were robed.

So we see that right from the beginning a present and a future prophetic fulfillment was given to us. In fact we can go to the first seven words in the Hebrew Bible and in the pictograms the whole story of salvation is described.

So I go back again to quoting Prof. D. Briones in what he describes as Already, Not Yet.

According to Scripture, believers are

Some of us stumbled on everything on the right hand column, but we have no problem believing in the Passover as both past and present. All out doctrines are like this because God placed us in a state of hope which means having received grace we are awaiting a future completion.

When we stumble at the idea of adoption having a future filament, we are going to stumble at the rest of the doctrines that are all written as being in the very same state of hope.

I hope I can move on from this now, and with that statement demonstrate hope as we understand it in our culture and Biblical hope are not the same thing. Biblical hope is rock solid, but I am not convinced all of us will understand what I write.
 
There was also another thread under the Rapture category. I know there was some discussion on there as well. Maybe that is where the posts are that you are thinking of @PaidInFull

Rapture Delayed
That's it, i think. There were two similar threads with similar titles. This discussion started under one of them and then moved to the other. I too wondered where posts went until I noticed that. This isn't RF, though, where posts disappear on a whim and people get hurt by it. If something were to ever disappear here, I'm sure it would be for a very good reason.
 
Brother in the Philippines, I did read the article that you provided, albeit quickly, and I did not disagree with anything in the article.
The point of my confusion stemmed from the way your original post was worded, and from the thread title - which seem to imply that we aren’t fully adopted yet.
But I think I understand what you are trying to say….the fact that we are adopted has an effect in Heaven and will affect our eternal lives and the whole heavenly dynamic.
But you do agree that we are fully, 100% adopted now. Is that correct?
I need this question answered before I invest myself any further into this teaching.
Please understand that some of us have been exposed in the past to teachings that spiritually damaged us. We need affirmation of your agreement with the basic Bible truths before you can expect us to sit and passively receive what you are teaching .*
Dear Andiamo, I should see a numerical count added when a new post is made, but for some reason yours didn't show when you posted. I thought I posted this reply to you earlier, apologies if I didn't so here goes again. These 11 quotes are not mine but from the article I asked all of us to read. Please note the underlined in points 7 & 8 but all points mean this when read in context. Sonship and adoption is the same event.

1) The gift of sonship to God becomes ours, not through being born, but through being born again.

ADOPTION IS THE APEX OF GOD’S MERCY AND GRACE

2) The highest privilege that can be bestowed on a person is to be adopted into God’s family. In our salvation, God not only redeems us from our sins and imputes Christ’s righteousness to us, but also adopts us into his very family.

3) In adoption, God takes us into His family and fellowship, and establishes us as His children and heirs. Closeness, affection and generosity are at the heart of the relationship. To be right with God the judge is a great thing, but to be loved and cared for by God the father is greater”​

4) A person is born of God solely by the sovereign monergistic work of God, is granted faith, and as a result of the exercise of that faith is justified and adopted into God’s family.

5) God, out of his mercy and eternal plan of election, sovereignly takes a person out of the family and kingdom of Satan and places them in his family and kingdom. Colossians 1:13, 14, in speaking of God, the Father adopting us into his family, states: “For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin.”

6) In Adoption, God not only takes us out of Satan’s family, but as part of our salvation he changes our citizenship from Satan’s kingdom to God’s kingdom. Philippians 3:20 says, “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. . . .”

7) Understanding that in our salvation we are adopted into God’s family and enjoy a Father-child relationship with God is foundational for Christian living. Perhaps the strongest passage in Scripture dealing with the doctrine of adoption is found in Romans 8:14-16: “For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received the spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, ‘Abba, Father!’ The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.” This passage affirms the idea that, in our salvation, we are adopted into God’s family as an act of his grace. It also affirms that the believer enjoys a close filial relationship with God as his Father. The Aramaic, “Abba” is a term of close relationship. This passage also mentions an important application of the doctrine of adoption, the fact that we are not given “a spirit of slavery leading to fear again.”

8) 1 John 3:1-3 summarizes some important truths about adoption and its relationship to Christian living: “See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are... Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”

9) Finally, John says that the sure expectation of this full realization of being a child of God is a crucial motivating factor in Christian living. We fight against sin and apply ourselves in the things of God because of this sure hope set before us. We are motivated by what God has done and the promise of what he will do.

10) Do you think of your relationship with God in terms of a Father-child relationship? Do you revel in what God has done as the Apostle John did in 1 John 3:1,2 and let that be your motivation as John mentions in 1 John 3:3?

11) O How shall I the goodness tell/ Father, which thou to me has showed?/ That I, a child or wrath and hell,/ I should be called a child of God,/ Should know, should feel my sins forgiven,/ Blest with this antepast of heaven!” (Methodist Hymnbook #361)

Now regarding this comment...

Please understand that some of us have been exposed in the past to teachings that spiritually damaged us. We need affirmation of your agreement with the basic Bible truths before you can expect us to sit and passively receive what you are teaching .*


When Adrian or any of you are in disagreement with me, I hit the pause button. This is what distinguishes a Bible Sturdy from a sermon. I am not giving a sermon, I am sharing a Bible Study and that means slowing down and not attempting to cover ground quickly when some are questioning and confused.

What if I get it wrong? Right now I am asking Adrian to address something that he is prepared to let go but considers me to be in error. I can't do that. I think Adrian is in error. We need to either sort this out for the good of all or come to an agreement that we have to disagree in love but everyone knows where we stand and can form their own opinion.

The very last thing I want is for any of you to sit passively in a Bible Study of mine for what use is that to any of us? Either agree or disagree but don't think I won't welcome push back for I do.

It is not always possible to agree. Paul didn't get everyone to agree with His teaching, and I am not as good a teacher as Paul so what hope have I got of taking everyone with me? Then there is the problem that those on a milk diet will choke on meat - it is not their time but my hope is that some of the good rubs off on them too.

Thanks for the checkup.

Blessings.
 
I AM NEW HERE: DID I GET THIS WRONG?

As I posted to Andiamo, this is a Bible Study and not a sermon. I never intended this to be covered in one weekend let alone one day. The topic is too big and the questions will be too many.

This is what a Bible Study is to me, when we gather together for an hour once a week, a presentation is made and questions are answered with care to bring everyone along.

I know Adrian would like me to hurry along, but in a church setting this is not how I teach and even in Bible School we took weeks to complete modules on one topic.

I thought when I posted in Bible Study it would get less attention because it is not an instant topic covered in few posts and therefore would be less popular, but being popular was not my goal.

In addition I can find it difficult to post during the week and I said that weekends are my time. I usually put in about 20 hrs Bible study on weekends and this is separate to my posts here and I don't want to sacrifice that.

If you are prepared to chill out with me on weekends and see potential value in my posts, it will be great to have you join me.

I have been in endless debates on the rapture, and sad to say with teachers who have been mulit decades long teachers of the pre-trib and have converted to either post-trib or pre-wrath.

I have read what is posted here and you won't last long when for example you say we are not destined for wrath.

The first things I want to establish with them is an answer to the question, is it necessary for the church to appear in heaven before the Father and if so why?

If adoption is placed in our HOPE category, then the answer is that it is future. yet here I have many who don;t understand that hope meand future and not present, so I have to address that. Next we have to identify who is the only person in the Godhead that can adopt us? That ought to be obvious, that only the Father can adopt us.

If the Father is in heaven, and we must be adopted for dual fulfillment of prophecy, and not just adoption, but every doctrine we are in faith for, then the post-trib is in error. However that doesn't deal with the pre-wrath that states we must appear in heaven. Pre-wrath is gaining a lot of pre-trib converts.

The bottom line is that the timing of the rapture is a secondary issue to me, for what comes first is my desire to meet my Dad in heaven, but this drives me further into study to see what He says and His starting point is adoption.

4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal.4

Jesus redeems us - He is not our father to adopt us so it is figurative or is there an actual adoption ceremeony in heaven? We emust establish this too.

How important is this double reference to the law? For me it is critical and every bit as vital as establishing that adoption is a dual prophetic event with both a now element and a future completion, exactly the same as Passover was and is for Israel but they are missing the future aspect.

We will have to investigate the law. I studied law of contract for a year as a module in my course and was reponsible for writing the legal clauses for building contracts and acting as a mediator if there was a dispute. Can I cover this quickly? Not if you want to pass your exam or to be torn to shreds in court.

If there is the interest I shall continue to post next weekend and we shall have some very interesting discussions.

Blessings all.
 
Future - but that doesn’t mean I am any less adopted now. Correct?
You were adopted before the world began just as you were saved before the world began...

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places In Christ

where? On earth? Or in heaven?

If it is in heaven do we need to get there or is this figurative and imaginary?


4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love5He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself.

To adoption to what? To Himself!

A celestial million miles away?

Or in person and figuratively like we are in faith for now?

As I posted you were adopted and saved at the same time. So when were you saved?

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ Eph.1

Can you see the future part of salvation here reserved in heaven and to be revealed then..
A Living Hope

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 2Tim.1

Your salvation. like adoption is past predestined and real (not figurative) in God for He is not in our time dimension, present for us now in this time dimension, and future to come when the glory of it all is to be revealed, and so it is reserved in heaven for us. We have to go there in the future to acquire ful possession.

Amplified Bible
The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory. Eph.1


Am I making sense?
 
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