1 Second After The Rapture

[Ghoti Ichthus]

@Ghoti Ichthus or anyone, if you find the eyewitness accounts of Josephus online I would love to read that. Or if there is a book I can purchase.

I have the whole set in hardback, but it's still in storage
Haven't had time to look for it PDF, but will let you know if I run across it. Might be on kindle or inter-library loan the specific volume(s)

 

[Andy C]

In guess I am missing something or maybe I am a little slow. I get what you are saying about the OWG forming, but why would God need to rapture us before that happens? Or another way of looking at it is, why couldn't the Tribulation start before the OWG is formed? I still don't see a need for a gap, but it is not really important that I get it. So I will leave it at that.

The tribulation starts the moment the AC confirms the covenant for one week (7 years). We also know the AC rises out of the OWG, so he would need to be in a top leadership position in order to be the one who confirms the covenant, which means the OWG needs to be in place first.

Daniel 9:26-27

And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.

 

[Andiamo]

I have the whole set in hardback, but it's still in storage
Haven't had time to look for it PDF, but will let you know if I run across it. Might be on kindle or inter-library loan the specific volume(s)

Oh wow, it’s a set? Maybe I can find a used set to buy. And I will look on Kindle. What is it called, exactly?

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I think OWG will be formally established because of the chaos and shut down commerce systems that'll happen because of the Rapture. The plans and procedures for a quick stand-up are probably written and just waiting for "some calamity." The world banks/UN, central banks, regular banks, and cc companies won't restart the system until they're protected. The longer people go hungry, and the longer things aren't open for business, the more scared people will become, and the more likely violent resistance. The smoother and quicker this goes, the more likely people will be to get with the program (sheeple). When the systems are up and running now, everything's connected already.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Oh wow, it’s a set? Maybe I can find a used set to buy. And I will look on Kindle. What is it called, exactly?

Do a search for Josephus at libravox.org

 

[spartan sprinter]

The Globalist mob must be spewin now that Henry Kissinger has passed away

 

[Work4Peanuts]

Do a search for Josephus at libravox.org

You can also find Josephus on Project Gutenberg.

 

[pixelpusher]

I think OWG will be formally established because of the chaos and shut down commerce systems that'll happen because of the Rapture.

I agree, the Rapture could well be the "straw that breaks the camel's back"; they will have to "come together". It will be a crisis that will allow them to get things done they couldn't normally do, as has been said about not wasting crisis.

 

[Margery]

Oh wow, it’s a set? Maybe I can find a used set to buy. And I will look on Kindle. What is it called, exactly?

If it's ok to post it, here's the link from Josephus dot org The Works of Flavius Josephus

It'll take some reading, to find the bit that Ghoti and I remember but he is VERY good for seeing what was going on in the background of the New Testament as well as what happened after the rebuilding of the Temple on up to the infighting between the Pharisees and Sadducees, plus the Essenes who didn't want anything much to do with either of them, and how on earth did ROME get involved in Israel.

He frames it for a Roman audience so you hear what happened during which period of Rome. So it becomes a good way to cross reference dates in history.

you'll read how Herod became the ruler and a lot of interesting detail that fleshes out the things we read in the New Testament.

It's written carefully-- Josephus didn't want to lose his life so there are bits you have to read between the lines. He was in a precarious position.

The important bits to us, about Christianity are mixed into the whole text in brief asides-- Josephus wasn't a Christian and he didn't fully understand them but he does document them in spots. I picked these up from Wikipedia quickly but somewhere else he talks about Jerusalem under Pilate and the events of the Crucifixion day. Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia

Book 18 of the Antiquities of the Jews in Chapter 3 and 5 cover Jesus and then the death of John the Baptist. It's not all in chronological order, he jumps forward and back in time to add details.
Book 20 chapter 9 mentions James the brother of our Lord.

 

[Margery]

I can't find the passage. I might be thinking of another historical writing-- maybe in Eusebius - he wrote a history that the early church used. The early church fathers quoted Josephus so perhaps that is where I picked it up. I'm sorry, it might be over in Wars or it could be I didn't remember correctly. I thought I remembered somebody who wrote about the tumult in Jerusalem at the time of the Crucifixion and I thought it was Josephus. I'll keep looking.

Meanwhile Josephus is interesting for background info.

 

[Margery]

....

After the rapture, how long could it take before global wars break out, and could they be nuclear, which then could account for the high number of deaths given for the first set of Judgments? The 4th seal judgement kills 1/4 of the earths population.

Some end times teachers speculate that the seal and the trumpet judgements happen at a very fast pace, with little time in between each one. Im not sure about this, what does anyone else think?

...

I think the judgments commence sequentially in the order they are given in the Book of Revelation. I don't see them ending quite as neatly. I think some of the judgments will start while one or more previous ones are still active. I think there will be a lot of overlap.

I like the idea of overlap for many of the judgments. Some end neatly- the demon locust stings end after 5 months.

But others seem to morph into each other and overlap like the first 4 Seals where each one comes seemingly as a consequence of the previous one. The deaths of the 4rth seal start happening as soon as the second seal because Rev 6:8 says this: 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Sword and famine were the second and 3rd riders. Death comes as a result of those 2 but also plague and the wild beasts of the earth. It can be argued that plagues naturally happen in conditions of war and famine but the immense death toll amounts to a quarter of the earth.

The wild beasts are something else- not sure how those fit, and I'm not sure I accept Chuck Missler's speculation that it might be the tiny microbial "beasts". I wouldn't rule them out either, but that comes under the definition of plague so I still think we are looking at animals going nuts.

That's a lot of rotting bodies if 1 out of every 4 left behind lies dead by the end of the first 4 seals.

I wonder about all the demons. Ok so if the people left behind had some who were possessed, and lots of their hosts die, then there are a lot of disembodied demons who want to go somewhere.

Gadarene swine perhaps???? I could see the animals go nuts in those circumstances. And kill some more people.

Each action sets up another reaction. Like a giant game of billiards with multiplying effects rippling outwards

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I agree, the Rapture could well be the "straw that breaks the camel's back"; they will have to "come together". It will be a crisis that will allow them to get things done they couldn't normally do, as has been said about not wasting crisis.

Look at what TPTB were able to do with a measly little pandemic. Imagine what TPTB could do if all the banks, ATMs, gas pumps, cc, points of sale, etc. were closed and not functioning, so people couldn't get the necessities or niceties of life. Even if some places were taking cash or even bartering, that wouldn't last long as the relatively low use of cash, low supply of cash in people's hands, and lack of resupply because no electronic payment/receipt system combine to create a massive shortage/unavailability of "everything." Hungry people do desperate things, and hungry parents with hungry children will do even more desperate things. Under these circumstances, scared, hungry sheeple will do what they're told if it makes sense, and do it without thinking.

 

[Work4Peanuts]

Look at what TPTB were able to do with a measly little pandemic. Imagine what TPTB could do if all the banks, ATMs, gas pumps, cc, points of sale, etc. were closed and not functioning, so people couldn't get the necessities or niceties of life. Even if some places were taking cash or even bartering, that wouldn't last long as the relatively low use of cash, low supply of cash in people's hands, and lack of resupply because no electronic payment/receipt system combine to create a massive shortage/unavailability of "everything." Hungry people do desperate things, and hungry parents with hungry children will do even more desperate things. Under these circumstances, scared, hungry sheeple will do what they're told if it makes sense, and do it without thinking.

So many stores are not set up to even take cash if the computer systems are down. Also, these days, if I want to use cash, I have to go to special registers around here that are set up to take it. Combine that with a younger populace that is unable to do any math in their heads, whether buying or selling, and I think that cash will be more or less obsolete after the rapture.

 

[spartan sprinter]

So many stores are not set up to even take cash if the computer systems are down. Also, these days, if I want to use cash, I have to go to special registers around here that are set up to take it. Combine that with a younger populace that is unable to do any math in their heads, whether buying or selling, and I think that cash will be more or less obsolete after the rapture.

I shocked the cashier when i went to pay for cash and even seemed a bit flustered that they had to calculate what change they had to give back.

I was thinking come on champ, your lucky if cash has been sort of obsolete for a year if lucky down here !!

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Oh wow, it’s a set? Maybe I can find a used set to buy. And I will look on Kindle. What is it called, exactly?

ChristianBook has at least two, one-volume versions.
However, all the works are in the public domain and are available freely online or inexpensively in digital format. @Tall Timbers @Work4Peanuts and @Margery for locations. At least some of Josephus' writings are also available on CCEL Home - Christian Classics Ethereal Library If you use eSword, at least some of Josephus' writings are available as free references.

Might have to go to more than one source to collect up everything if relying on free places.

 

[Andy C]

Im always praying many lost will quickly make the wise choice. I can only imagine the horror of falling in a pilotless jet, cars crashing everywhere, Drs vanishing in the middle of a surgery, families screaming at the sudden disappearance of their young children. Who knows but Him how many thousands or millions will die seconds after the rapture. Many of those killed probably were close to making the eternal wise decision but because they waited, it will be too late. It may sound unfair, but those who perish as a direct result of the calamities that will follow the rapture, had their entire life to choose Him. I pray all our loved ones repent, confessing Jesus as their Savior, before its too late.

 

[Margery]

It may sound unfair, but those who perish as a direct result of the calamities that will follow the rapture, had their entire life to choose Him. I pray all our loved ones repent, confessing Jesus as their Savior, before its too late.

Not unfair at all, I think the same way.

I pray for my family members that aren't saved yet. Although I love them, and want them to choose Christ and life --in the end it is their choice. I try to persuade them at every opening I'm given. I pray hard for them.

And sometimes like with my very elderly father in law, days before his death at 103 I got to try one more time and he got saved.

There will be many who do come to Christ in the Tribulation. God knows their names already.

Some of them will have had family praying faithfully for them, witnessing to them before the Rapture.

I pray with you that all our loved ones repent, confessing Jesus as their Saviour before their lives end.

 

[1LoverofGod]

You asked.

I think there is a gap. I think it's about 3.5 years in length due to Gog Magog and the burning of the weapons problem.

I'm going to head into one of my pet theories, which is just my own idea-- I'm not saying the rest of you have to think this way.

I think the Gog Magog war happens in that gap. Because of something that's missing in Ezekiel 38

and that is the people who DO believe in God. They aren't there in Israel-- the point of that war is to draw Israel back into relationship with God (that is the purpose of the Tribulation) and they aren't there among the nations (gentiles or goy which means gentiles in the text) as seen in both Ezekiel 38 & 39

Now the GM war could happen at any point in the Trib and even before

BUT for God to say in Ezekiel 38:23 23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

there has to be a lack of people who DO know that God is THE Lord among the gentiles. Similar phrases repeat that theme both for Jew and Gentile alike.

Which suggests that the people of God who make up the church (Jew and Gentile together) are GONE.




So then I figured that if they are gone, but people start getting saved shortly after the Rapture-- it has to be around the time of the Rapture, just afterwards - maybe a short time, up to a few years But soon enough that NOT TOO MANY IF ANY KNOW GOD!

Now that doesn't mean they know Him as in Salvation- JUST THAT THEY KNOW THAT THIS IS THE GOD OF THE BIBLE, THE GOD OF ISRAEL AND THE CHRISTIANS. This is the one who is causing death and destruction on Gog and company for invading the Apple of God's Eye namely Israel.




It is interesting (but not proof) that sudden destruction (fire from heaven that God sends) seems to be raining down on the "isles" or "coastlands" which is any far coastline -- far from Israel which could of course be the continents or northern Europe. Not sure. But Sudden Destruction does appear in there.

Ez 39:6 I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord.

Very interesting that we see a people who "live in SAFETY" that have SUDDEN DESTRUCTION raining down on their heads.

1Thess 5:1-3
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.



This also allows the burning of weapons for 7 years - not that it has to be over by the end of the Trib - other fires such as the burning of Babylon continue thru the Millennium, but I do wonder how they continue to burn them during the second half of the Trib if the GM war occurs near the start of the Trib. At least my theory has the weapons becoming toast before the AC desecrates the Temple and the believing Jews flee for safety leaving the rest to the antisemitic rage of the AC.




So far so good

It takes care of the interesting absence of anyone, Jew or Gentile who knows who God is in Ezekiel 38 & 39.

It takes care of the full 7 years of burning the weapons from the GM war without bumping into the persecution of the Jews by the AC in the second half

It presents the interesting picture in Ezekiel 39:6 of a people who "live in SAFETY" that have SUDDEN DESTRUCTION raining down on their heads. Who happen to live "in the coastlands" which is an idiom that could mean continents on the other side of the planet from Israel or it could be Britain and others at a safe distance.

ALSO I think this war is what sets everything up for the AC to appear.- taking advantage of the sudden aftermath of the GM knocking out Gog (Russia) and Iran plus Turkey and the other nations unspecified that go in with them.





Problems with my theory- things that puzzle me


How do those 10 kings come in and how long do they last before the AC rises in their midst? Because they come before him!

Do they arise before the Rapture? (one of the early church fathers seemed to think so, but it's not canon so it's not definitive, and the others didn't comment on that)

Does Damascus set things up for Gog Magog, and if so by how long? Israel has to be living in safety unaware of the risk on the "mountains of Israel" much of which is covered by the West Bank and their band of murderous muslims at this point in time.

Could the Jews burn weapons for 7 years during the persecution of the last 3.5 years?

More questions than answers and I'm still puzzling over this and will for some time yet - probably till we go

I love that Rapture icon

I have thought about the gap and there's scripture that makes sense there could be a gap after the Rapture and before the Tribulation. As pointed out, it's when Antichrist confirms the covenant that the Tribulation begins.

I think that Daniel 7:7-8 explains that the OWG, the Revived Roman Empire, will be set up with ten leaders. But after those ten kings are in power, Antichrist subdues three of those kings.

Let's read the verses

7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was ANOTHER horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully."

Now compare to Revelation 17:11-13

11 "The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

It's apparent that the ten king kingdom is established first and as Daniel 7:8 describes, The "little horn" aka Antichrist subdues three of those ten kings and is given power according to Revelation 17:13.

So there were ten kings. Three are taken down. That leaves seven. An "eighth" one comes up being Antichrist.

I can see the owg possibly forming before the Rapture, but possibly because as we know the rapture is Imminent and we can go up today.

But the restraining force in the church will be taken out of the way before the revealing of Antichrist. 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8.
We don't know how long the ten kings will be in power before Antichrist subdues those ten kings and is given power and authority by the owg.
That could occur in the "gap" period.

We could see the formation of the owg but certainly will not be here when Antichrist is given power to confirm that covenant.

Just my evaluation based on the two scripture sites I shared.

 

[Andiamo]

If it's ok to post it, here's the link from Josephus dot org The Works of Flavius Josephus

It'll take some reading, to find the bit that Ghoti and I remember but he is VERY good for seeing what was going on in the background of the New Testament as well as what happened after the rebuilding of the Temple on up to the infighting between the Pharisees and Sadducees, plus the Essenes who didn't want anything much to do with either of them, and how on earth did ROME get involved in Israel.

He frames it for a Roman audience so you hear what happened during which period of Rome. So it becomes a good way to cross reference dates in history.

you'll read how Herod became the ruler and a lot of interesting detail that fleshes out the things we read in the New Testament.

It's written carefully-- Josephus didn't want to lose his life so there are bits you have to read between the lines. He was in a precarious position.

The important bits to us, about Christianity are mixed into the whole text in brief asides-- Josephus wasn't a Christian and he didn't fully understand them but he does document them in spots. I picked these up from Wikipedia quickly but somewhere else he talks about Jerusalem under Pilate and the events of the Crucifixion day. Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia

Book 18 of the Antiquities of the Jews in Chapter 3 and 5 cover Jesus and then the death of John the Baptist. It's not all in chronological order, he jumps forward and back in time to add details.
Book 20 chapter 9 mentions James the brother of our Lord.

Thanks so much - and thank you for giving me some direction as to where to read.

 

[Andy C]

We know the world will change dramatically after the rapture. What about just before the rapture. Before we hear the call to come up there, will there be any kind of warning its coming? I have read arguments for yes and no on this, but scripture does not indicate any warnings, or feelings we have inside we are about to go Home. But if there is a “2 minute warning” what would you do for those moments?