Liberation Day 2 April 2025 (Tariffs)

[1LoverofGod]

I just got kinds confused by your reply because you replied to a quote from another thread that isn't here.
The only link I posted on this thread was from The Hill because I was asked for a link about Israel getting 17% tariffs.
What you replied to is from another separate thread I had posted not from here so this is what I meant by misunderstanding.

I see where you quoted from now. I had no idea the other thread was merged here. I didn't get a notification that there was a move.
I'm sorry for all the trouble.
I should have just left it alone.

 

[mattfivefour]

I understand. It seems to me that two threads may have been merged, which is why duplicate posts (regardless of who originally posted them) may have not made the merge, while my reaction did. It had nothing to do with whether a post was not appreciated. It's supposed to removed because we believe it to be erroneous in content we will in advise the poster. That's it, when we merge threads there is a notice it should automatically go to the people who originally started each thread. But if we are busy and moving fast and don't check the right box, that notice never gets sent. I apologize you were not notified of a thread merge, and for the confusion this failure to notify has caused. We'll try to do better.

 

[1LoverofGod]

I understand. It seems to me that two threads may have been merged, which is why duplicate posts (regardless of who originally posted them) may have not made the merge, while my reaction did. It had nothing to do with whether a post was not appreciated. It's supposed to removed because we believe it to be erroneous in content we will in advise the poster. That's it, when we merge threads there is a notice it should automatically go to the people who originally started each thread. But if we are busy and moving fast and don't check the right box, that notice never gets sent. I apologize you were not notified of a thread merge, and for the confusion this failure to notify has caused. We'll try to do better.

I understand. I didn't think it wasn't appreciated. I just got confused as to what happened. I looked over all of the notifications from the time that the merge took place around 2:00 or a little after and there's no message that a move took place.
It's fine. Water under the bridge now.

 

[Andy C]

I hope Trump quickly drops the new tariffs on Israel.

Im not qualified to understand the complete picture of tariffs, and what else goes on between Israel and the USA behind closed doors.
Perhaps putting tariffs on Israel is short lived, but part of another deal Trump is working with Israel on.

Trump has been a big supporter of Israel, so for now, I trust whatever the reasons are, they are justified.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Im not qualified to understand the complete picture of tariffs, and what else goes on between Israel and the USA behind closed doors.
Perhaps putting tariffs on Israel is short lived, but part of another deal Trump is working with Israel on.

Trump has been a big supporter of Israel, so for now, I trust whatever the reasons are, they are justified.

I read about the reasoning somewhere online last night. From what little I remember: We import about 20B of stuff from Israel. Israel imports about 13B of stuff from us. Add a couple of other things into the mix, figure the advantage to Israel and divide by about half and you get 17%.

 

[Margery]

Those reduced reciprocal tariffs should be enough to bring lots of manufacturing back to the states... but that will take time.

That's the rub.

Building factories takes time. It means a HUGE commitment that the companies have to justify. Here's the problem. A factory can take up to 7 years from plans to operation. The current presidential term limit on Trump is a little less than 4 years now.

He is doing this via executive order.

So these companies will have to gamble that rebuilding operations in the States will pay off for long enough under several different administrations.

Even if Trump manages to keep Vance on track (assuming Vance might win the next round or the round after that) there is no guarantee that Vance would follow the same path. Even Bush Sr didn't follow Reagan's example. In researching this, it WAS Reagan who started the whole Free Trade agreement thing with Canada and his philosophy was to let the market decide- this was ok till later presidents taxed the daylights out of corporations, encouraged crazy union demands and put in place further worse EPA restrictions.

This administration is assuming that domestic demand will be enough to justify the higher wages they have to pay for American workers and unions. It may severely restrict the American export economy - because other currencies are being devalued right now - as a result of this so goods created in America are sold to others at US dollar prices- but become unaffordable to the Mexican, Canadian or even European consumer.

Domestic supply and demand worked in the 1800s but that was before higher tech stuff became part of our lives and we got used to imported foods. Canada got their Vit C for example from cabbages and potatoes, not Florida oranges. The US enjoys avocados from Mexico and olive oil from Europe and the Med. We drive cars, use cellphones and import and export various things. It's a complicated web of supply and demand that has taken a century and a half to build up since the last time the USA used tariffs not income taxes to raise revenue.

When the US decided to go with Tariffs again, it was under President Hoover in the dirty 30's and a lot of economists feel that made the depression worse in America than it needed to be. Presidents after Hoover avoided tariffs as a general principle fearing another depression. Will it cause that today? Maybe not- it's a gamble. Trump feels it's worth the risk. Which makes me wonder what he and Elon uncovered about the US national debt that made this gamble a necessity.

And then the higher taxes that they must pay, environmental fees etc. Trump alluded to that but provided no details about reducing environmental roadblocks set up by the EPA over the years. Or changing the tax structure that drove business away from the States.

This also assumes a work force ready to work in those factories. Jobs like that - semi skilled labour isn't just solved by taking a DOGE downsized person used to an office job and putting them in a factory creating toasters for example. What do the DOGE fired people do for 7 years while they wait for these new jobs to emerge? How do they live when the cheap goods and foods they've gotten used to are out of their budget now?

These tariffs also create a mountain of bureaucracy to administer the different rates for different countries that might change up or down, thus requiring more input by tax people to ensure it gets paid.

Bottom line, this is a tax paid by the American consumer that is a baseline 10% on most countries goods that US consumers buy at home, although some that seem to be enemies of the US get off lighter than friends and a lot of countries that are allies in time of war are paying more. The fairness of that can be debated elsewhere BUT the bottom line, the American consumer will pay more.

If it's any consolation so will everyone else around the world. The world economy as Britt Gillette says is a Ponzi scheme, and when enough parts fail the whole thing crashes.

This will encourage other countries to develop side deals- trade agreements that don't involve the US at all. This will result in lower demand around the world for US made goods while encouraging other countries to develop their own factories and export economies. Another risk that I think Trump DID factor in, but tried to mitigate by threatening further tariffs and retaliation for those countries who get together and set up trade agreements between each other to exclude America.

In the long run IF this gamble pays off (in about 7 years or so) this should be good for the domestic economy within the USA but the cost of living and standard of living will have changed completely as people will be paying a huge sales tax (that is after all what a tariff works out to- a sales tax, paid by the consumer) on imports, while domestic goods aren't taxed.

Except if the production of the domestic goods requires stuff from other places. And that is another problem in our interdependent world. I've alluded to potash which is essential for fertilizer. It's the K in NPK Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium or Potash. This one mineral is only found in 2 places across the globe. Canada and Belarus. So if an American producer of fertilizer to create grain, for bread, for animal feed etc wants to make fertilizer they will have to pay that import tax. Right now Canadian oil supplies 1/3 of your domestic consumption. That may be exempt but each essential product will be found as we go along, and it becomes a nightmare of exemptions, different tax rates on top of the base of 10%, that could change.

For the manufacturer of US goods on US soil, that becomes a burden they bear until this gets straightened out.

So it's a sales tax, that is a bit more complicated than a sales tax should be and it might backfire

But Trump and his advisors think it's worth the gamble

So either his advisors are smoking crack, (I'm joking, I don't think they are btw) OR

(and this is what I wonder about at the end of the day and actually think happened)-

OR Trump and his advisors found something so bad in the numbers that O'Biden left behind, that he realized HE HAD TO GAMBLE.

 

[Margery]

I read about the reasoning somewhere online last night. From what little I remember: We import about 20B of stuff from Israel. Israel imports about 13B of stuff from us. Add a couple of other things into the mix, figure the advantage to Israel and divide by about half and you get 17%.

Yup. Problem is the difference in population.

Israel is much smaller.

USA is est to be 347 million people.


Israel is 9.5 to 10 million people.

So Trump is asking Israel to consume US goods as if they were almost 35 X the size they are.

A country the size of New Jersey, with a population 1/35th the size of the States is expected to consume the same as the entire US population. In order for the trade to balance.

Because of the size of America, they consume a LOT of goods, from everywhere. And a lot of countries are smaller than they are in population, size etc. This is the problem with balance of trade purely on the numbers.

 

[Tall Timbers]

OR Trump and his advisors found something so bad in the numbers that O'Biden left behind, that he realized HE HAD TO GAMBLE.

The USA is/was being bled dry both in trade and in laundering/theft of taxpayer funds. I'm surprised the USA is still functional, but we're not far from going over the edge if things don't change.

 

[Margery]

The USA is/was being bled dry both in trade and in laundering/theft of taxpayer funds. I'm surprised the USA is still functional, but we're not far from going over the edge if things don't change.

And that is why I think they had to gamble, with all the inherent risks.

It's desperate measures, because it's desperate times.

This is pure and simple an indicator of how bad the world economy has gotten, how interdependent, how intertwined.

The mess that the WEF created with the help of leaders around the world is coming to an abrupt end.

This is what the USA has to do for survival, and it's forcing the end game into view, the end game being a world wide currency that will come after the crash of the world economy.

This is a necessary step along the way.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Tariffs Are Just One Part of Trump's Economic Strategy​

The focus of the day is on tariffs, but that's just one piece of Trump's overall economic strategy.

Tax cuts and spending reductions, which Congress is currently working to codify in legislation, are a big part and he mentioned them during his remarks at the White House.

"We're going to pass the largest tax cuts in American history, and that's where we're relying on [House Speaker] Mike and [Senate Majority Leader] John Thune," Trump said. "They've been working tirelessly on taking the next step to pass the plan for our one big beautiful bill."

Tariffs Are Just One Part of Trump's Economic Strategy

townhall.com

I'll believe the one big beautiful bill if it actually gets written and the passed... I don't trust Congress to get much done though every long once in a while they surprise...

 

[1LoverofGod]

Yup. Problem is the difference in population.

Israel is much smaller.

USA is est to be 347 million people.


Israel is 9.5 to 10 million people.

So Trump is asking Israel to consume US goods as if they were almost 35 X the size they are.

A country the size of New Jersey, with a population 1/35th the size of the States is expected to consume the same as the entire US population. In order for the trade to balance.

Because of the size of America, they consume a LOT of goods, from everywhere. And a lot of countries are smaller than they are in population, size etc. This is the problem with balance of trade purely on the numbers.

It's been reported that Russia wasn't on the list for tariffs.
White House press secretary said it's because Russia has sanctions on them.
Russia has been defying the agreement made with Trump and has continued striking Ukraine and even on their infrastructure that was specific in the agreement that Putin lay off from striking, so I think Russia should have both sanctions and tariffs on them.

 

[Tall Timbers]

President Donald Trump announced on Friday that Vietnam has agreed to eliminate tariffs on all U.S. goods if the two parties can negotiate a deal.

This could be a positive sign for President Trump’s controversial tariff strategy. On Wednesday, he announced sweeping global tariffs on other nations to pressure them into negotiating more favorable trade deals for the United States.

In a post on Truth Social, Trump said he “had a very productive call with To Lam, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam.”

The president continued, noting that Vietnam “wants to cut their Tariffs down to ZERO if they are able to make an agreement with the U.S.”

This Nation Just Agreed to Cut Tariffs to Zero After Conversation With Trump

townhall.com

 

[Margery]

That is an excellent start. Hopefully that will drop the tariffs down to the base rate of 10% on everyone, on incoming goods from Vietnam to the US- they make a lot of shoes and clothing. Those factories used to be in China but I think there was pressure put on them to move to a more USA friendly country a while back (less slave labour, back to more sweatshops) so Vietnam picked up a lot of the sweatshop manufacturing in clothes and shoes.

Here is an April 1 news article published by one of the clothing industry rags Analysis: US Tariffs on Vietnam Would Be a Blow to Nike and Other Sportswear Brands

 

[Tall Timbers]

China Imposes 34% Tariff on All U.S. Imports​

China announced on Friday that it will impose a 34 percent tariff on all U.S. goods in retaliation for President Donald Trump’s “Liberation Day” tariffs on Wednesday. The Chinese tariff hike is scheduled to take effect on April 10.

“The United States’ imposition of so-called ‘reciprocal tariffs’ seriously violates WTO rules, seriously damages the legitimate rights and interests of WTO members, and seriously undermines the rules-based multilateral trading system and international economic and trade order,” the Chinese Commerce Ministry said when announcing its retaliatory tariffs.

China previously imposed a 15 percent tariff on coal and liquefied natural gas (LNG) from the United States, and a ten percent tariff on crude oil, agricultural machinery, and certain motor vehicles as part of the escalating trade war with the United States.

The retaliatory actions on Friday also included more export controls on rare earth minerals, which are vital to manufacturing products such as computer chips and electric vehicle (EV) batteries, and more U.S. firms added to a list of companies under trade sanctions for exporting “dual use” products with military applications.

China Imposes 34% Tariff on All U.S. Imports

China announced on Friday that it will impose a 34% tariff on all U.S. goods in retaliation for President Trump’s “Liberation Day” tariffs.

www.breitbart.com

There is going to be some pain in the USA and in many places of the world over Trump's endeavor to right some long term wrongs and bring a lot of manufacturing back to America. If he fails, so will the USA because we're that close to becoming a shell of a country.

The leader of China is being exceptionally foolish. China became an economic powerhouse (in theory) because of the USA markets and China can just as easily return to being a poor and impoverished nation with very little assets because they're run by a strong man who is used to calling the shots and having everyone bow to him. China has been a bully all over the world, tricking a lot of third world countries out of their natural resources and using Chinese and not local labor to take possession of those natural resources. Whatever China loses in the USA market, it will likely never get back.

Eric Trump said today or yesterday that the countries that are quick to make trade deals with Trump will get good and fair deals while the ones that come last to the table won't get good deals. He said, in watching his father, he's seen this scenario play out his entire life.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

.

President Donald Trump announced on Friday that Vietnam has agreed to eliminate tariffs on all U.S. goods if the two parties can negotiate a deal.

This could be a positive sign for President Trump’s controversial tariff strategy. On Wednesday, he announced sweeping global tariffs on other nations to pressure them into negotiating more favorable trade deals for the United States.

In a post on Truth Social, Trump said he “had a very productive call with To Lam, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam.”

The president continued, noting that Vietnam “wants to cut their Tariffs down to ZERO if they are able to make an agreement with the U.S.”

This Nation Just Agreed to Cut Tariffs to Zero After Conversation With Trump

townhall.com

Return of all POW/MIA/remains
Bonus, if they take in Hanoi Jane

 

[Andiamo]

I have purchased several furniture items over the years that were made in Vietnam and they are very nice quality, and pretty nice workmanship too - and real wood- albeit Rubberwood - but it is a very durable and heavy wood. I would love to see more options from Vietnam if they could just leave child labor out of their production. From what I can see they obviously want our business.

 

[Andiamo]

And I would like to say that I would love to see more furniture manufactured here in the USA but the sad fact of the matter is that American made furniture is unaffordable for most of us.

 

[Tall Timbers]

France Warns EU Could Take ‘Extremely Aggressive’ Actions in Response to Trump Tariffs​

France’s trade minister said the European Union’s response to U.S. President Donald Trump’s tariffs could be “extremely aggressive” amid increasingly heated rhetoric from Paris.

Speaking ahead of crunch talks in Luxembourg, French Minister of Foreign Trade Laurent Saint-Martin said that Brussels must consider all options in the trade dispute with the United States.

“We must not exclude any option, on goods, on (American) services and open the European toolbox, which is very complete, which can also be extremely aggressive in return,” the minister said per Le Figaro.

Saint-Martin pointed to “anti-coercion” measures within the EU code, which he said could freeze access to European public markets or even prevent U.S. companies from investing in the trading bloc.

France: EU Could Take 'Extremely Aggressive' Actions over Trump Tariffs

France's trade minister said the EU's response to Trump tariffs could be "extremely aggressive" amid increasingly heated rhetoric from Paris.

www.breitbart.com

Just my opinion, but I think Europe has a tremendous amount to lose, and nothing to gain by not agreeing to trade with the US that is on a parr, as well as footing the bill for Europe's defense. On the flip side of the coin, The US has little to lose should Europe play hard ball. If Europe doesn't cut some fair trade deals with the USA, and let's say NATO implodes... Europe won't be able to afford to defend itself.

When the dust settles, the USA may have massively increased trade with the countries that played fairly with the US while those that hold out the longest may never return to the level of exports to the USA that was previously enjoyed. Europe stands to lose a lot. China could become impoverished as manufacturing finds homes outside of China and exports that used to be China's wealth generator disperse into the hands of other countries. Japan is another country that could suffer greatly. If you go shopping in Japan you see just about everything sold there was made there. Japan will have to open its markets or it will diminish significantly. Toyota and Honda should survive since they manufacture a lot in the USA...

The USA markets affect the entire world in a big way. The only other individual country that has affected markets outside of its own is China, and that only recently, but not near to the extent that the USA affects the entire world.

 

[TCC]

This is REALLY interesting because it's cementing the US Israel alliance right now, just at the point where Israel could use all the help it can get against the attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria's new leader backed by Turkey who hates Israel, Gaza, Egypt, "west bank" aka Judea and Samaria along with Jordan who helps them like Egypt does with Gaza. Add in the Yemeni Houthi's and Turkey.

MBS just pushed for inclusion of Syria's new President Ahmed al-Sharaa (Turkey backed him in the coup of Assad) (aka Al Joulani when he was a terrorist) in Trump's tour of the Arab states in May. I can't paste the link here- my computer has issues, that function seems to work off and on, but it's found at I24News as an exclusive a few hours ago. title is "Trump to meet with Syrian leader during Saudi visit"

MBS of Saudi Arabia is stirring the pot a bit, and it's good that Israel cemented their relationship with USA NOW! Before MBS tries to steer things towards the muslim Arab states.

I can paste a quote from the article here:
"U.S. President Trump will meet with Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa during his upcoming visit to Saudi Arabia in mid-May, a Syrian source told i24NEWS.

The expected meeting was arranged through the personal mediation of Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. "

And sets a good example for other countries too.

 

[TCC]

Nothing to be sorry about. I had no difficulty with what you posted so there was no misunderstanding. My only point was totally separate from the Israel tariff issue. I was just commenting on the fact that whatever tariffs America puts on other nations is far less than the tariffs other nations have always had on America.

Now, why there is a tariff on Israel makes no sense to me. Especially since Israel has dropped all tariffs on America. I guess this is a question that will be ferreted out in the news in the days to come.

It might be to demonstrate non-favoritism optics. Or perhaps Trump wants something.