janeelaine
Well-known
"reveal" isnt the same as "exist." i do know what youre saying, not much else lol, but thats my response. the ac can well exist before its revealed.
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Is President Trump the Antichrist?
- Thread starter CharlesW
- Start date
janeelaine
Well-known
why not? the devil quotes the bible to his twisted advantage.
janeelaine
Well-known
thank you for responding to me in the way that you did. ive been terrified to come back and read what people say.
to me, "risk" is not "certain death." it could end good or bad, if its a mere risk. also, again, he said "MAY have to make a choice." not "DEFINITELY." these nuances shouldnt be ignored.
so i stand by my interpretation of the original post; but where you said,, "expecting we will know who the ac is on this side of rapture," hm you got me thinking there. did someone post the bible quote that addresses this? thanks for getting me thinking. i will have to explore this issue further. its a lot to take in, and for some reason i now feel inclined to address this bit in my heart like i havent really before.
janeelaine
Well-known
"believe" sounds strongly opinionated in a certain direction, but it leaves room for debate.
in contrast, "abortion is definitely evil," is an example of a committed statement.
Amethyst
† He hath shed his own blood for my soul
Looks like he hasn't even visited the forum since his first and only 'hit-n-run' post, so I agree.
TCC
Well-known
I'm sorry to see Charles not around. Kudos to him to lay out something like that. Perhaps he was testing the waters to see if he felt to fit here. In any event sorry to see him not active beyond that post. Trump is a radically polarizing figure. It totally makes sense why Charles would have that question. Like I said I had that same concern in his first presidency as 45. As far as the AC and revealing, If we look at the Greek structure of 2 Thes 2, we notice that it seems to convey the following:Looks like he hasn't even visited the forum since his first and only 'hit-n-run' post, so I agree.
a) The apostasy first
b) and shall have been revealed the man of lawlessness
Typically the way we read that is the rapture first then the reveal. But in Greek (I don't do Greek so if someone knows, please help) it seems to convey:
* apostasy first & lawless man revealed
Almost is if they are clumped together. First, being a primary element of "hey this has to go on first." Like there has to be an apostasy + the man of lawlessness having been revealed before we see the Day of the Lord. In that sense, the "first" seems to point to the sequence of those two events together. Like, First a) apostasy & b) man of lawlessness be revealed -- they both have to happen first before the Day of the Lord. That is how when looking at the Greek construct it seems to me.
If so, then it is not clear if the man being revealed has to come after the rapture or apostasy? Am I wrong? Anybody? lol.
Spartan Sprinter
Well-known
1LoverofGod
Well-known
A lot of people were sure Obama had to be the AC.
Then came the photo of Macron on the cover of a magazine with him walking on water and the search was on in his background.
So Macron is an atheist. He comes from a genealogy of Assyrian in his family history.
He referred himself as a god, I think it was Jupiter. He was certainly the AC for a lot of people too. No doubt there have been many antichrists, as John tells us in his epistles, and even in history there have been typologies for antichrist like Nimrod and Epiphanies and others.
The fact remains that nobody will know his identity until he is revealed, and that won't happen until the tribulation and we won't be here for that. Trying to guess who he is brings unnecessary anxiety and distracts us from watching for Jesus return to take us to the place He has prepared for us which is a joyous expectation. John 14:1-3
"Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them."
Luke 12:37
Then came the photo of Macron on the cover of a magazine with him walking on water and the search was on in his background.
So Macron is an atheist. He comes from a genealogy of Assyrian in his family history.
He referred himself as a god, I think it was Jupiter. He was certainly the AC for a lot of people too. No doubt there have been many antichrists, as John tells us in his epistles, and even in history there have been typologies for antichrist like Nimrod and Epiphanies and others.
The fact remains that nobody will know his identity until he is revealed, and that won't happen until the tribulation and we won't be here for that. Trying to guess who he is brings unnecessary anxiety and distracts us from watching for Jesus return to take us to the place He has prepared for us which is a joyous expectation. John 14:1-3
"Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them."
Luke 12:37
Hol
Well-known
Thanks for this @1LoverofGod:
“The fact remains that nobody will know his identity until he is revealed, and that won't happen until the tribulation and we won't be here for that. Trying to guess who he is brings unnecessary anxiety and distracts us from watching for Jesus return to take us to the place He has prepared for us which is a joyous expectation. John 14:1-3
"Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them."
Luke 12:37”
If we set our affection on His promise, we look forward to His rewards for us. 2 Tim 4:8 for one example: “There is reserved for me in the future the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on that day, and not only to me, but to all those who have loved His appearing.”
Paying attention to who might be the AC can easily tie us up in knots. How can that preoccupation encourage anyone to more deeply love His appearing?
“The fact remains that nobody will know his identity until he is revealed, and that won't happen until the tribulation and we won't be here for that. Trying to guess who he is brings unnecessary anxiety and distracts us from watching for Jesus return to take us to the place He has prepared for us which is a joyous expectation. John 14:1-3
"Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them."
Luke 12:37”
If we set our affection on His promise, we look forward to His rewards for us. 2 Tim 4:8 for one example: “There is reserved for me in the future the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on that day, and not only to me, but to all those who have loved His appearing.”
Paying attention to who might be the AC can easily tie us up in knots. How can that preoccupation encourage anyone to more deeply love His appearing?
Almost Heaven
Well-known
We need to be about the business of evangelism and ministry. Not playing pin the tail on the ac and dial down some of the specualtion. Far too many vain imaginations going on lately. What is actually happening is quite enough to give us plenty to discuss.
I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. (Psalm 119:113)
What is a vain thought? Well, in the context of the verse, vain is described in the dictionary as empty, useless, devoid of meaning, or scripturally put, not profitable. In short, thoughts that do not produce anything of value, are vain.
Rant over...thanks for listening!
I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. (Psalm 119:113)
What is a vain thought? Well, in the context of the verse, vain is described in the dictionary as empty, useless, devoid of meaning, or scripturally put, not profitable. In short, thoughts that do not produce anything of value, are vain.
Rant over...thanks for listening!
TCC
Well-known
I agree. But even though some may know scripture somewhat or well would not make them necessarily biblically literate in a comprehensive way. In the American Reformed tradition, which is rather massive, this is absoltely the case in spades. Proving we live in a gymnastics are a national staple average age. Also the Luciferian Light view is quite popular. Where Trump is kind of viewed as an evil wizard of sorts (like an AC lite). This sort of climate is well captured in point where I believe Magery pointed out in a post that Jan Market in the Calvary Chapel camp would notice it can tend to be somewhat taboo to link Trump to any sense of biblical prophecy (meaning, as in, perhaps even...good or neutral prophic like fulfillment) today. Providing context of our general spiritual climate in respect to Trump in general. So in that climate, it would make sense for some to consider such a large figure as he is becoming to be the antichrist.
In Charles case, I would not see his post offering as something to defend or deconstruct, perhaps as much as helping a guy out perhaps over a short period come to hopeful better senses in respect to biblical prophecy proper. I mean on some levels, I'm actually surprised how Trump is not thought of as the AC moreso these days. When I thought so there was very little to work with in comparison to 7 years later. The one thing, personally, I would have as a takeaway from Charles's post is how it attests to something I struggled with in 2017. That this person, Trump, seems to be on the world stage almost as a different species of catagory of person having size and effect on the world. Historically there have always been men/women who rise far above the norm in conventional popularity or notice. But even there, lol, I believe the level of fanfare around Trump likely has little comparison in my book. Even if true, it could be also due to what "bigger than life" looks like in an information rich age with internet, cell phone, and satellite exposure. Blessings.
TCC
Well-known
I hear that Spartan. The advantage though to our forum is that is it fairly active. And its like a township where we will get the sense of one another. I have not really noticed as much with the new people. Probably to my shame, lol. I should be more active at the invitation stage. Amen. But the grace provided here by God is that we will get to know one another. It's not such a big forum that one could be lost in the mix without notice.
That is similar in ways to JDF (JD Farags previous forum). It was small enough and pretty much rather active. So running into each other there was similar. I think though on that there was one advantage JDF had that CFF does not seem to, just in notice. JD was known for some of his more known positions that were not mainstream. Which I don't think is something CFF would present as. So in the JDF sense, it tended to be on the rather high side in attracting both opposition and somewhat radical views in general. In part, because of this, it would seem it was quite more a wild west terrain to moderate. And ultimately a contribution to its closure.
But while there I did witness even at the moderation level engagement with right in our faces opposition. Where the moderation and the community afforded a honeymoon period to see if the new member might be open to discussion beyond their trolling nature. Certainly this does not have to be the case with social media forums. I would understand that too much of a measure of that could endanger a sense of forum safety. I thought it was pretty cool though that the forum, almost as a unit, would engage with even outright opposition in hopes to normalize fellowship.
In general, it would appear we live at a time where sound biblical approaches might be considered kind of rare. If so, most of our neighbors will likely be somewhere on that spectrum of the untaught. In this case with Charles, it does seem odd that posting his position as stated with the level of intent presented would not appear to him that that might require quite a bit of additional interaction along the way. It would appear that is not necessarily something Charles factored in for whatever reason that might be. Blessings.
TCC
Well-known
As true as this is though, its probably good to keep in mind that this won't stop. It will probably even increase likely the way things are going. CFF has a lot to offer those who might stray out into the theological wilderness. I believe it is pretty wild west like out there. I could see our forum family being used of God to help those caught in some distortion theologically for those who might be open to consider ways of processing outside their preferred views or notions, though.
TCC
Well-known
Amen. But I would also note though that the times we are in will likely get more like that possibly. Certainly it would not be wise for this forum to transform into "who is the AC teams." But there is one upside to Charles posting what he did. For whatever reason, he felt safe enough here to let his hair down. Granted he might be doing that at every social media pit stop to see where he thinks he might best belong, but we don't really know that.
Even with the pushback Charles got, he did get some good feedback as well. If he might have been open to that. I realize the careful balance of defending the faith and people "are the ministry." Sometimes those two together can blend nicely. But there can be a tendency where things could fall too much on one side of that more than the other. Where neither extreme to be possibly the most profitable would be how I would consider. Blessings.
1LoverofGod
Well-known
This doesn't only apply to who the AC is, but for every Prophecy that God inspires.....
Honestly holding to a speculation or opinion of an outcome of something that hasn't happened that isn't clear in Scripture but doubling down on it is pretty much like being a prophet.
To make an assumption for a prediction that's not clearly supported by Scripture is making a private interpretation of prophecy.
Nothing is wrong with giving opinions in guessing an outcome of a prophecy that's not clear in details.
But when we have an opinion we should say it's an opinion, and recognize that our own opinions are no stronger in being correct than another person's opinion and not worth ongoing debates over because there's no scripture evidence to prove our position. When opinions begin to create division and discord among brothers and sisters in Christ it's best to let the discussion rest.
God has given us exactly what He wants us to know in His Word and what He hasn't made clear with details leaves us with Trusting God that however it plays out it is in accordance to His Will. God doesn't keep things from us because He wants to have us in the dark. Sometimes God won't reveal everything because it moves us to exercise faith and trust in Him.
Some Prophecies are clear, and some are not and it's only when that prophecy comes will we know because God will make it clear to us that a certain Prophecy has been fulfilled.
Take for instance the prophecies of the regathering of the nation of Israel after being scattered among the nations after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and the nation being reborn in a day.
Nobody could have known how it would have played out until it happened in 1948 when the nation of Israel was reborn, and the partial fulfillment of the beginning of that regathering began and will ultimately be completely fulfilled in the Millennium.
God knows the end from the beginning.
We don't have to know everything because our trust in God gives us confidence that everything will result in God saying " it's all good", as He said with each day of Creation.
For us who belong to God, we know that however God fulfills His Reliable Prophetic Word it's in no way going to harm us, because God always works for the good for those who love Him.
"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation"
2 Peter 1:20
May the Love of God in us move us to remain in one accord as one body in Christ
Honestly holding to a speculation or opinion of an outcome of something that hasn't happened that isn't clear in Scripture but doubling down on it is pretty much like being a prophet.
To make an assumption for a prediction that's not clearly supported by Scripture is making a private interpretation of prophecy.
Nothing is wrong with giving opinions in guessing an outcome of a prophecy that's not clear in details.
But when we have an opinion we should say it's an opinion, and recognize that our own opinions are no stronger in being correct than another person's opinion and not worth ongoing debates over because there's no scripture evidence to prove our position. When opinions begin to create division and discord among brothers and sisters in Christ it's best to let the discussion rest.
God has given us exactly what He wants us to know in His Word and what He hasn't made clear with details leaves us with Trusting God that however it plays out it is in accordance to His Will. God doesn't keep things from us because He wants to have us in the dark. Sometimes God won't reveal everything because it moves us to exercise faith and trust in Him.
Some Prophecies are clear, and some are not and it's only when that prophecy comes will we know because God will make it clear to us that a certain Prophecy has been fulfilled.
Take for instance the prophecies of the regathering of the nation of Israel after being scattered among the nations after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and the nation being reborn in a day.
Nobody could have known how it would have played out until it happened in 1948 when the nation of Israel was reborn, and the partial fulfillment of the beginning of that regathering began and will ultimately be completely fulfilled in the Millennium.
God knows the end from the beginning.
We don't have to know everything because our trust in God gives us confidence that everything will result in God saying " it's all good", as He said with each day of Creation.
For us who belong to God, we know that however God fulfills His Reliable Prophetic Word it's in no way going to harm us, because God always works for the good for those who love Him.
"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation"
2 Peter 1:20
May the Love of God in us move us to remain in one accord as one body in Christ
SO true, Rose!! And, may I add that while we believers dwell on this earth in human form, we will never be able to see what God is doing
day to day, nor understand how prophecy will play out, because we are limited in what we can see. We are looking at it from a human standpoint - not from a heavenly one. Once raptured and in our new bodies (and minds) we will fully understand. God will answer all our questions and give us
knowledge that we cannot have now. So, to get into heavy speculation is not all that productive given our limited knowledge.
day to day, nor understand how prophecy will play out, because we are limited in what we can see. We are looking at it from a human standpoint - not from a heavenly one. Once raptured and in our new bodies (and minds) we will fully understand. God will answer all our questions and give us
knowledge that we cannot have now. So, to get into heavy speculation is not all that productive given our limited knowledge.
1LoverofGod
Well-known
Amen. God says "My thoughts are not your thoughts".
Our imperfect fallen minds cannot fully comprehend God's Ways.
What God wants us to know He will not hold back from us and what He does wants us to know, by The Holy Spirit God will reveal to us exactly what He wants us to know as the body of Christ
TCC
Well-known
I'm working on keeping these shorter, forgive me if I leave something out--so in advance...blessingsThis doesn't only apply to who the AC is, but for every Prophecy that God inspires.....
Honestly holding to a speculation or opinion of an outcome of something that hasn't happened that isn't clear in Scripture but doubling down on it is pretty much like being a prophet.
To make an assumption for a prediction that's not clearly supported by Scripture is making a private interpretation of prophecy.
Nothing is wrong with giving opinions in guessing an outcome of a prophecy that's not clear in details.
But when we have an opinion we should say it's an opinion, and recognize that our own opinions are no stronger in being correct than another person's opinion and not worth ongoing debates over because there's no scripture evidence to prove our position. When opinions begin to create division and discord among brothers and sisters in Christ it's best to let the discussion rest.
God has given us exactly what He wants us to know in His Word and what He hasn't made clear with details leaves us with Trusting God that however it plays out it is in accordance to His Will. God doesn't keep things from us because He wants to have us in the dark. Sometimes God won't reveal everything because it moves us to exercise faith and trust in Him.
Some Prophecies are clear, and some are not and it's only when that prophecy comes will we know because God will make it clear to us that a certain Prophecy has been fulfilled.
Take for instance the prophecies of the regathering of the nation of Israel after being scattered among the nations after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and the nation being reborn in a day.
Nobody could have known how it would have played out until it happened in 1948 when the nation of Israel was reborn, and the partial fulfillment of the beginning of that regathering began and will ultimately be completely fulfilled in the Millennium.
God knows the end from the beginning.
We don't have to know everything because our trust in God gives us confidence that everything will result in God saying " it's all good", as He said with each day of Creation.
For us who belong to God, we know that however God fulfills His Reliable Prophetic Word it's in no way going to harm us, because God always works for the good for those who love Him.
"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation"
2 Peter 1:20
May the Love of God in us move us to remain in one accord as one body in Christ
I hear what you are saying Rose. In fact, I would suggest that if we are interested in looking for the AC, we are most assuredly to get that wrong answer because of how I would understand eschatology in general to be going...lol. So although we may differ in some ways on eschatology, where we do agree dear sister in spades is: The AC will most likely not be something the church age will have insight on. Amen to that. I can with a whole heart agree to that. But even so, if people have doubts or concerns or even convictions, to me is most likely a confused soul in an age ripe for that. I totally agree with your concern that functionally, doing what Charles did in posting and evacuating could be considered of the genre of "living practically as a prophet," in some ways. I would see your concern in that.
I would give one caviate on that though per consideration of all in this thread. Even though the way we look at 2 Thes 2 as solid in how we think it says what it does, we are not the final word on that. Apostasy may be just that. Apostasy. Or maybe it is a reference to the rapture. When I look at it what I see is referring to the midpoint of the tribulation. Not the beginning. So in that I could be mistaken or those holding to the view it is pretrib, they could be mistaken. Just because we have a schooled view of 2 Thes 2 does not necesarily mean what we see there is aboseltyly what God is saying...lest we have the same problem of your well stated concern dear sister in general.
Other than that, as far as what you are saying, yes, of course. Amen. I agree. Now I have my own beliefs I double down on having to do with my own personal struggles with a best view of the character of God. But that is for me to hash out on my own. Not to haunt a forum with it. But lets look at what Charles did:
He says, "I believe..." And "a concern." And "play it safe."
These are terms of opinion. Especially, "play it safe." Like, "in case Trump is something dangerous...let's err on the side of caution." Another thing here perhaps to notice is that Charels brings not one scripture verse. His argument is entirely in just how things strike him. Now, his lack of interactive reply might suggest that its just an info drop and he moves on from site to site. Which still though to me would imply a man with a conviction of concern (that may not know much better) that is sharing that with other believers.
From that sense though dear sister, personally, I would not place this thread under debate or ongoing endless forum time wasting. It's a person with a concern that is sharing that. There is no where anywhere near the universe of a debate here though in how I am looking at it. There are no verses. There is no absolute claim to be right (although it might be inferred--that could just be immaturity in the faith). There is just a shared concern. I understand what you are saying Rose. And I think where it applies...ok, yeah. But perhaps this thread is not exactly a debate as much as maybe just like people who have different views might come to work some of that out? Granted that does not look like the case here. But on the merits per our forum, it could have been. Just saying.
I understand the tendency to see this kind of thread and be concerned with all the AC possibility thinking we don't want to have to sort through in the body, at church, or here. And that is fine. Amen. But I appreciate and truly honor your convictions. I would say all in all that your observations do a helpful and real world application of things also to be concerned with in what a thread like this should not become in the future, amen. Blessings.
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