Evangelism Teaching at My Church

[Ghoti Ichthus]

My husband is now saying we should go to the classes and ask the tough questions. Hmmm. We shouldn’t do that with a troublemaker attitude though. Guess we will see how the Lord leads us.

Also after a little looking online, I can see there is no one perfect way to evangelize. I think all of the pre-planned types of methods are imperfect.

I admit that I have only directly led two people to Christ in 25 years. (Have planted many seeds though.) With both, the Holy Spirit brought them to my attention and I just knew in my heart they would receive Christ when I talked to them. With both, the Holy Spirit all but cleared the way for me to reap. Even with the one who asked question after tough question, Speaking was so easy it was effortless. Both cried and expressed sorrow for their sin before me, with no prompting on my part. Maybe these were the only two I will ever reap in my lifetime.

I like your husband's suggestion. Maybe (hopefully), something good in it, even if it's just one thing. Or even if it's "only" fellowshipping with other believers, or building some relationships that might be critical if The Lord tarries and the church is persecuted in the West.

 

[Hol]

I think the Lord answered my question. Believing (trusting) in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior is what changes your mind about God.

I love this

It's really this simple, it's only placing faith in Jesus because we suddenly find Him trustworthy (due to the Heavenly Father calling us and the Holy Spirit convicting us).

In my Sunday School class we are in close fellowship, but I still drive them all nuts when I state it is faith alone and cut them off when they want to add, "...and this," "...a person has to..." etc. I'm like, 'Nope, only faith.' Drives them nuts

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I love this

It's really this simple, it's only placing faith in Jesus because we suddenly find Him trustworthy (due to the Heavenly Father calling us and the Holy Spirit convicting us).

In my Sunday School class we are in close fellowship, but I still drive them all nuts when I state it is faith alone and cut them off when they want to add, "...and this," "...a person has to..." etc. I'm like, 'Nope, only faith.' Drives them nuts

Ephesians . . .

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:4-9, KJV

4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 4-9, ESV

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 4-9, NKJV

4 Deus autem, qui dives est in misericordia, propter nimiam caritatem suam, qua dilexit nos,
5 et cum essemus mortui peccatis, convivificavit nos in Christo (cujus gratia estis salvati),
6 et conresuscitavit, et consedere fecit in caelestibus in Christo Jesu:
7 ut ostenderet in saeculis supervenientibus abundantes divitias gratiae suae, in bonitate super nos in Christo Jesu.
8 Gratia enim estis salvati per fidem, et hoc non ex vobis: Dei enim donum est:
9 non ex operibus, ut ne quis glorietur.
Ephesians 2:4-9, Biblia Sacra Vulgata (aka Latin Vulgate) (in case someone has an issue with any of the modern/English translations

Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Solus Christus
Sola Gratia
Soli Deo Gloria






JESUS!!!

 

[Hol]

The truth is that responding in faith to the Holy Spirit's conviction is not an act of merit.

lest anyone should boast.

I know Calvinists claim that faith is a thing we non-Calvanists use as a boast.

Do Lutherans teach that too?

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

The truth is that responding in faith to the Holy Spirit's conviction is not an act of merit.



I know Calvinists claim that faith is a thing we non-Calvanists use as a boast.

Do Lutherans teach that too?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Lutherans teach that people have free will to either accept or reject God's free offer of forgiveness, grace, and salvation. We accept/come to saving faith. It isn't a work, because that would be works-based salvation. Faith is a gift of The Holy Ghost. Lutherans reject anything that even smells or resembles works-based salvation. Works (good and bad) done after salvation have nothing to do with salvation/eternal life, only toward Heavenly rewards (or loss of them) aside from salvation.

Lutherans teach that all people can be saved if they accept God's free offer, and don't teach that some are predestined to Hell and some to Heaven. If some were predestined for Hell, that would mean that Jesus' work wasn't sufficient for all . . . Lutherans also don't teach irresistible grace, because that would mean we don't have free will to accept or reject God's free offer.

One of the best analogies I've seen/heard is that of a present. God gives us a beautifully wrapped present, but if we don't unwrap it and accept it, it's wasted and unused and we don't get the benefits. But God still bought and paid for it with Jesus' death. No wonder He grieves so when even one person is lost.

Lutherans also teach that free will is why we keep sinning, even after we're saved.

 

[Hol]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Can you help me understand why your reaction to my post #22 was a frown and then you quoted Bible verses about boasting?

I may have misread your focus on boasting, as if placing faith in Christ is a boast? I'm glad Lutherans do not teach predestination.

However, I didn't know that they teach faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Do you think we humans exercise elements of faith in a variety of ways, like boarding an airplane, sitting in a chair?? Maybe that's the rub, I believe that each person has an ability to put their free-will faith in Jesus in response to the Holy Spirit's conviction.

He doesn't need to instill any ability for anyone to have 'saving' faith. We are made in God's image and naturally are able to place our faith in Jesus.

The thing about 'saving' faith, or faith as an extra gift, implies that it isn't a common condition that all mankind is born with.

If I understand where you may find that an individual placing their faith in Jesus is a boast, it's because non-Calvanists can not accept that every person has an ability built-in to choose where they put their natural faith. So, the argument goes, mankind who claim they simply put their faith in Jesus are boasting. Calvinists claim that we have ZERO ability to put faith in Jesus. We are so DEAD that we can not even respond to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Can you help me understand why your reaction to my post #22 was a frown and then you quoted Bible verses about boasting?

I may have misread your focus on boasting, as if placing faith in Christ is a boast? I'm glad Lutherans do not teach predestination.

However, I didn't know that they teach faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Do you think we humans exercise elements of faith in a variety of ways, like boarding an airplane, sitting in a chair?? Maybe that's the rub, I believe that each person has an ability to put their free-will faith in Jesus in response to the Holy Spirit's conviction.

He doesn't need to instill any ability for anyone to have 'saving' faith. We are made in God's image and naturally are able to place our faith in Jesus.

The thing about 'saving' faith, or faith as an extra gift, implies that it isn't a common condition that all mankind is born with.

If I understand where you may find that an individual placing their faith in Jesus is a boast, it's because non-Calvanists can not accept that every person has an ability built-in to choose where they put their natural faith. So, the argument goes, mankind who claim they simply put their faith in Jesus are boasting. Calvinists claim that we have ZERO ability to put faith in Jesus. We are so DEAD that we can not even respond to the Holy Spirit.

I'm sad for the people in your Sunday School class that want to add something to simple faith. (Jesus AND, aka Jesus PLUS).

I understand the verse to mean that salvation is by faith alone and no works needed or possible, Jesus did everything necessary, and we cannot add to what he did because we are sinful and unclean by our fallen human nature, and to think we need to or even could, both denies that Christ's work is sufficient for all and robs Him of some of His glory. The last part about boasting I think can be used as both an admonition and comfort when someone is despondent, dysfunctional, depressed, etc. about not being "good enough," having a hard time with sin, or stuck in legalism/legalistic thoughts. I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo thankful I don't have to worry about doing AND or PLUS, because I'd surely mess it up. Jesus did everything perfectly, and I'll take His perfect present/work over my feeble, wholly inadequate anything, any and every day

Sometimes, I wish we could use a couple of reactions since often posts have multiple thoughts.

I'm sorry my reaction caused confusion, consternation . . .

 

[Matthew6:33]

Personally, I am a bit sympathetic to Ray's approach. Even if you watch his videos where he street preaches, it can get pretty intense at times and he is not a big tough guy at all. He preaches in California of all places too!

Like @Ghoti Ichthus mentioned above, maybe this brimstone style just appeals to me because of my type of hard-headed personality. I have to know "the why" for the reasoning behind what I believe and/or think.

The devil has really done an evil job in our society these days by blurring the line of what sin actually is so most people these days think they are "good enough" to get to a good place when they die just because they haven't done X Y or Z. Ray's method breaks it down to the 10 Commandments (Law), which according to scripture fundamentally reveals sin to the unbeliever and exposes their unrighteousness.

[Rom 3:20 NASB95]
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin.

This knowledge of sin allows the unbeliever to rationally understand their need to change their mind (repent) about their spiritual condition, which of course, without Jesus leads to a destiny in Hell

[Jhn 16:7-11 NASB95]
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Many Christians don't realize that the Holy Spirit has a ministry in unbelievers. He convicts them of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Now the unbeliever has a problem, and they need a solution. Enter Jesus our Savior, Who made a way for us when there was no other way.

[Rom 6:23 NASB95]
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Andiamo]

Personally, I am a bit sympathetic to Ray's approach. Even if you watch his videos where he street preaches, it can get pretty intense at times and he is not a big tough guy at all. He preaches in California of all places too!

Like @Ghoti Ichthus mentioned above, maybe this brimstone style just appeals to me because of my type of hard-headed personality. I have to know "the why" for the reasoning behind what I believe and/or think.

The devil has really done an evil job in our society these days by blurring the line of what sin actually is so most people these days think they are "good enough" to get to a good place when they die just because they haven't done X Y or Z. Ray's method breaks it down to the 10 Commandments (Law), which according to scripture fundamentally reveals sin to the unbeliever and exposes their unrighteousness.

[Rom 3:20 NASB95]
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin.

This knowledge of sin allows the unbeliever to rationally understand their need to change their mind (repent) about their spiritual condition, which of course, without Jesus leads to a destiny in Hell

[Jhn 16:7-11 NASB95]
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Many Christians don't realize that the Holy Spirit has a ministry in unbelievers. He convicts them of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Now the unbeliever has a problem, and they need a solution. Enter Jesus our Savior, Who made a way for us when there was no other way.

[Rom 6:23 NASB95]
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I see what you are saying. I guess that I just continue to be confused about this whole thing. It's not outright wrong, yet it sure seems wrong to walk up to people and walk them through this script. I know how I got saved, and yet some could say I wasn't really saved at that moment because I didn't repent of my individual sins before believing and receiving Christ.
The conversations surrounding this ministry seem so convoluted, endless and confusing. Just exhausting.

(Edited a bunch of stuff out. Was bashing my pastor a bit. )

***Our reasons for not believing in "coming to the altar to repent" at church:
1) The church is the habitation of God. The Holy Spirit lives in me. The "altar" is in my heart - it is not "up front" at the church.
2) Church is not, never can be, and never will be, my walk. My walk is my walk, and church is church.
3) People tend to save up their repentence all week for Sunday with this type of expectation.
4) People (notably, me!) tend to go up front to please the pastor with this type of expectation.
5) People (has also been me!) tend to go up front to look spiritual with this type of expectation.
6) People tend to judge those who stay in their seats as prideful or less spiritual with this type of expectation.
7) God made neurons in our brains, and they are lightning fast. Repentence should be that fast in my daily walk, moment by moment as the Lord makes me aware of my sin.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

***Our reasons for not believing in "coming to the altar to repent" at church:
1) The church is the habitation of God. The Holy Spirit lives in me. The "altar" is in my heart - it is not "up front" at the church.
2) Church is not, never can be, and never will be, my walk. My walk is my walk, and church is church.
3) People tend to save up their repentence all week for Sunday with this type of expectation.
4) People (notably, me!) tend to go up front to please the pastor with this type of expectation.
5) People (has also been me!) tend to go up front to look spiritual with this type of expectation.
6) People tend to judge those who stay in their seats as prideful or less spiritual with this type of expectation.
7) God made neurons in our brains, and they are lightening fast. Repentence should be that fast in my daily walk, moment by moment as the Lord makes me aware of my sin.

All of this is part of why I like the corporate confession and announcement of grace in the weekly service. No one goes forward. We all stand in front of our seat (or remain seated or kneel (depends on the specific congregation and whether or not one is physically able). Reminds us we're all sinful beings AND forgiven by Jesus No one confesses individual sins aloud, and there's a little time to confess to God privately before the announcement of grace for all of everyone's sins. No confessional like RCC, but an individual could get private Pastoral counsel if needed, and private confession might be appropriate.

If someone comes to saving faith, arrangements are made for Baptism if the person hasn't already been Baptized by a Christian church. It might be at the beginning, end, or after of a weekly service, or private at a separate time, with only family present.

Some families have family devotions, which include confession and announcement of grace, and The Lord's Prayer also has provision for asking forgiveness.

I wonder how many people fail to profess faith or simply dismiss it all in churches that have an altar call, because that loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong walk up the center aisle to the altar can be embarrassing, scary, intimidating, or physically difficult.

 

[Andiamo]

All of this is part of why I like the corporate confession and announcement of grace in the weekly service. No one goes forward. We all stand in front of our seat (or remain seated or kneel (depends on the specific congregation and whether or not one is physically able). Reminds us we're all sinful beings AND forgiven by Jesus No one confesses individual sins aloud, and there's a little time to confess to God privately before the announcement of grace for all of everyone's sins. No confessional like RCC, but an individual could get private Pastoral counsel if needed, and private confession might be appropriate.

If someone comes to saving faith, arrangements are made for Baptism if the person hasn't already been Baptized by a Christian church. It might be at the beginning, end, or after of a weekly service, or private at a separate time, with only family present.

Some families have family devotions, which include confession and announcement of grace, and The Lord's Prayer also has provision for asking forgiveness.

I wonder how many people fail to profess faith or simply dismiss it all in churches that have an altar call, because that loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong walk up the center aisle to the altar can be embarrassing, scary, intimidating, or physically difficult.

Wow, I’ve got to say, I love that Ghoti. That is lovely. Is the announcement of grace directly from scripture, or a traditional creed type of statement?

 

[Andiamo]

Went for a walk with hubby and talked / prayed this out. I think that I really, really need to be patient with my pastor right now and offer him the same grace that he has extended to me whenever I have messed up and said the wrong thing.
Two thoughts. One is, he usually doesn’t have this attitude and speaks more about grace. Maybe he really just wanted to preach it hard from the other side of the coin today.
Also, it’s true that in the Christian church as a whole, there seems to be very little repentance. And if he wants to incorporate more opportunities for people to repent during the service (who have not repented during the week) then that is a good thing. The altar stuff still bugs me a lot, but will see how that goes. Maybe he just missed it on his wording today. And one more thing is, all of this (even though I don’t agree with some of it) is coming from his heart and concern for our community, which is a good thing.
He truly is a wonderful pastor and I need to be patient with him. It’s hard to know what to do in these last days. I think he is sick and tired of the pandering to sin and I can’t disagree with that.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Wow, I’ve got to say, I love that Ghoti. That is lovely. Is the announcement of grace directly from scripture, or a traditional creed type of statement?

Based on the Bible, but the same words every week. When I can get to my hymnal and the hymnal agenda, I can get the Scripture references. Then, I'll post how it goes. There's a couple different common ways

 

[Andiamo]

Based on the Bible, but the same words every week. When I can get to my hymnal and the hymnal agenda, I can get the Scripture references. Then, I'll post how it goes. There's a couple different common ways

I would love to see it. Maybe I could use it as a tool for myself.

 

[Hol]

I know how I got saved, and yet some could say I wasn't really saved at that moment because I didn't repent of my individual sins before believing and receiving Christ.

It's only placing faith in Jesus that saves. We have one sin to repent of: having an unbelieving heart. In John 16:8 "And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment."

Every other sin to turn from is a sanctification issue. The thief on the cross next to Jesus gives us a clear picture. He didn't have time to do any repenting of his other sins, or to practice any sacraments like baptism.

 

[Andiamo]

It's only placing faith in Jesus that saves. We have one sin to repent of: having an unbelieving heart. In John 16:8 "And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment."

Every other sin to turn from is a sanctification issue. The thief on the cross next to Jesus gives us a clear picture. He didn't have time to do any repenting of his other sins, or to practice any sacraments like baptism.

And that’s what I believe. So why do people make this so complicated? I just don’t understand.
The thief on the cross, he may have repented of his deeds silently. But that isn’t what saved him. It was belief in the Lamb that saved him.

 

[Hol]

Sometimes, I wish we could use a couple of reactions since often posts have multiple thoughts.

I'm sorry my reaction caused confusion, consternation . . .

Yeah, it's not easy to fellowship using words and emojis only. But we can keep trying

And, I haven't been really clear in my questions.

I'm trying to understand if the Lutheran church believes that the Holy Spirit has to enable us to accept grace? It seems that with Luther's strong condemnation of the freedom of the will (see 'The Bondage of the Will') that it's a similar position to Calvinists claim of Total Depravity??

 

[Hol]

And that’s what I believe. So why do people make this so complicated? I just don’t understand.
The thief on the cross, he may have repented of his deeds silently. But that isn’t what saved him. It was belief in the Lamb that saved him.

You are blessed to keep it this simple. Don't give up, and may God use you to help others to embrace the childlike simplicity

 

[Everlasting Life]

There was a recent guest speaker (Dr. Dennis Rokser) at Andy Woods church who spoke on repentance and how it's to be biblically understood. These might be a helpful resource:

Do You Need to Change Your Mind about Repentance Part 1 - Sugar Land Bible Church

slbc.org

Do You Need to Change Your Mind about Repentance Part 2 - Sugar Land Bible Church

slbc.org

Edited to add, he deals with Ray Comfort in the first one.

 

[Goodboy]

We used to watch Ray a lot until we actually heard the words out of Ray’s mouth “so you need to repent…turn from your sin and put your trust in Jesus.”

That is exactly the problem I see with that method. As Mattfivefour correctly stated repentance is a change of mind. Personally I believe it is to change your mind about sin and believe God that you are a sinner. The thing is everyone does not need to change their mind, as they may already agree with God. For those it is not ABC but just BC, meaning believe and confess. I already knew I was a sinner, so I only needed the B and the C. The big problem though is that Ray says you must change your actions, which is works!

So to me you don't need to start with convincing someone they are a sinner and you surly should not tell them they must work to be saved!

Not trying to say I have the best method, but when I found out "The Gospel" means good news. I just thought why not express salvation that way. So when I would go sharing on the street I would just say "Do you know what Jesus did for you?" Then I would tell them if they did not know. If they did know, I would tell them "Did you know this is a free gift and all you need to do is believe and accept it?" After that it would just become a conversation about what they believed verses what it takes to be saved.

So I am not saying no one should, but I don't mention Hell or tell them anything they have to do other than what Romans says which is believe and confess.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.