Evangelism Teaching at My Church

[Andiamo]

I am so disappointed right now. Our wonderful pastor (Calvary Chapel) has a real burden for our community and has been talking about bringing teaching into our church on how to evangelize, and will introduce an app soon. He hasn’t announced it to the church yet but we asked him after our antennae went up—and found out it will be the Way of the Master/Ray Comfort!

We won’t allow this to be a dealbreaker because we adore our church and our pastor and feel this is where God planted us.
But just can’t in good conscience participate in this. Can’t stand the thought of our congregation going around using this technique either. I’m afraid this will change the relationship and trust level we have with our pastor and our church (in both directions) once he sees that we are not on board.
He is no dummy and carefully researches everything. So we are sure he is well aware of the controversy about this method. So we really don’t want to argue with him and make this the hill that we die on. As our pastor we feel we need to respect his decision even though we don’t agree with it.

Our stance on the method is that we wouldn’t go as far to say that it is unscriptural. There may be times to have this type of conversation with someone who is in denial. However we have major issues with it as an up-front approach and it’s definitely not our method of choice. We disagree about the Ten Commandments being used to quantify sin. We used to watch Ray a lot until we actually heard the words out of Ray’s mouth “so you need to repent…turn from your sin and put your trust in Jesus.” That is an two-step process to salvation. We also don’t believe in using scripts and the same exact approach with everyone because then we can easily get comfortable and stop depending on the Holy Spirit. So then we are ministering to a person out of our flesh. We also feel it’s pretty manipulative. Just a few of our concerns with this method.

Should we just go ahead and participate? At least some kind of evangelism will be taught and facilitated? I can’t imagine ever actually using this method as the first and only approach with a person, so it would be a lie for us to be there in the classes, actually.
I’m so bothered and a little sad. Don’t know why he would choose this teaching and method. Why didn’t he choose someone who is in Calvary Chapel?
We have enjoyed the safety of being in a denomination, so that things can’t just be brought in out of the blue. (Although Calvary Chapel isn’t technically a denomination and each church is free to do things as they are led by God—-but they all have a certain accountability.) Our church is pretty rah-rah about being a Calvary Chapel so we are shocked.
We have been through so much with churches in the past. We thought we were now safe from surprises like this.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Should we just go ahead and participate?

I wouldn't.

The church I go to pays royalties to use music from NAR sources. I attend the church but the amount of $$ I give to them is not much. If they'd lose the NAR music, that would change.

 

[Andiamo]

I wouldn't.

The church I go to pays royalties to use music from NAR sources. I attend the church but the amount of $$ I give to them is not much. If they'd lose the NAR music, that would change.

Thanks and I know that is disappointing for you too. We literally don’t know where else we fit denominationally besides a Calvary chapel. We won’t consider non-denominational churches here anymore…they are all a total mess.

 

[Andiamo]

I guess I need to admit I’m a little confused too. I have passed out tracts in the past with the ABCs of salvation. But now wonder if it should
have been BAC which is actually the order of what happened to me when I got saved.
I heard the cross message, suddenly believed,
and felt like a rotten person. Then I prayed to Jesus.
I know that everyone is different though. All the more reason to not use the same script on every person you talk to.

 

[Andiamo]

Another reason why I’m sad is because I thought that when he said he was going to introduce some teaching, that it would be a class where we would look at all of the verses and examples of evangelism in scripture and that we could each develop a little “tool box” of different approaches. Because of what it says in Jude
22And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

But instead of this he is just going to give us a one-approach method that was invented by a man. Ugh!!!

 

[Amethyst]

I am a little ignorant of his show
I’ve only seen a couple episodes of his evangelism… just where he’s showing someone he is a sinner…
What is it exactly that is so unbiblical about it?

 

[Andiamo]

I am a little ignorant of his show
I’ve only seen a couple episodes of his evangelism… just where he’s showing someone he is a sinner…
What is it exactly that is so unbiblical about it?

Some people say it’s unscriptural but I’m not sure why.
I do know however that we were commanded to preach the gospel. We weren’t commanded to show people that they are sinners.

 

[mattfivefour]

Another reason why I’m sad is because I thought that when he said he was going to introduce some teaching, that it would be a class where we would look at all of the verses and examples of evangelism in scripture and that we could each develop a little “tool box” of different approaches.

This would be my preferred method. No two people are the same, and therefore no two approaches should be the same. A study of how Jesus approached people is important, even though at that time there was no such thing as salvation because the cross had not yet taken place. If we look at the sermons in the New Testament we can see a good example of how Christ should be preached to others. And if we look at individual interactions --I think of Philip with the Ethiopian eunuch, or Peter with Cornelius-- then I think we can gain some good insights on how to present the gospel to others.

One of my favorite verses is found in the 20th chapter of Acts, verse 21. The context is the close of the apostle Paul's final missionary journey. He is on his way to Jerusalem where he will be accused, arrested, and the process will begin that will wind up with his imprisonment and eventual execution in Rome. As we begin verse 21, Paul is in Miletus and has summoned the elders of the church at Ephesus. When they arrive he reminds them how he taught publicly and from house to house and he says "solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance towards God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." I believe this gives us the proper order: first preach the need for repentance towards God and then lift up Jesus Christ. How can people believe in Jesus if they do not see a need for him? So this is the approach I take.

It is likely that your pastor is impressed by the seeming success of very comfort's method and thinks that this will work for his congregation.

 

[Andiamo]

both Jews and Greeks have repentance towards God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ."

And is the repentance toward God simply changing your mind about God?

 

[Amethyst]

Some people say it’s unscriptural but I’m not sure why.
I do know however that we were commanded to preach the gospel. We weren’t commanded to show people that they are sinners.

Do you feel that you and your pastor are on the same page in terms of Salvation vs Discipleship?

 

[Andiamo]

Do you feel that you and your pastor are on the same page in terms of Salvation

He doesn’t expect Christians to be perfect and definitely believes we need to be patient with new Christians and allow time for the Holy Spirit to change them.

 

[Andiamo]

I’m realizing now that my pastor isn’t going to make everybody happy in the church. Some will be happy, some won’t. This is one of our times to be not happy. But it’s not his job to make us happy. Also he is just a man and men make mistakes. So we will just sit back and see what happens with this and in the meantime we are going to do a big dig into scripture on evangelism and what it is exactly and what it isn’t. And the gospel message. And if he asks why we aren’t participating we will speak the truth in love that we just can’t get on board with it and give our reasons why.
What makes me cringe though is knowing how zealous our church can be and thinking about the church forming a group and doing a big outreach in our town. I would have loved to participate if it was done differently. I guess we will just have to grin and bear it while everyone gets all excited about it.

 

[Andiamo]

And is the repentance toward God simply changing your mind about God?

I think the Lord answered my question. Believing (trusting) in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior is what changes your mind about God.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

The crucifixion was kind of the ultimate fire and brimstone evangelism encounter for the 2 thieves, the Soldiers who crucified Jesus, and everyone else there that day . . . Fire and brimstone is fine for some, and fear may be the only way to get through to someone. Fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10).

Grandma taught me the Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the Lord my soul to keep, but if I die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take, Amen. prayer, and she taught me what it really meant in very graphic terms I don't remember if it was shortly before or after I came to saving faith at age 3 in Molly's Sunday school class. I'm such a hard head/rebel/etc., that not understanding the hell part in great detail wouldn't have worked on me.

The Lutherans always emphasized sin, confession, repentance, AND faith AND grace (definitely NOT works based, but also understanding earthly vs eternal consequences). Telling a parent that Jesus had already died for and forgiven my sin (whatever it was I did) so I shouldn't get a spanking didn't go over well

EDITED TO FIX CELL PHONE posting issues

 

[Andiamo]

The crucifixion was kind of the ultimate fire and brimstone evangelism encounter for the 2 thieves, the Soldiers who crucified Jesus, and everyone else there that day . . .

Thanks for that - will need to take a good look at that too. Talk about presenting the gospel! Here was Jesus hanging on the cross before them all. Asking the Father for forgiveness for those present. And reassuring the thief who believed in Him—who realized on his own that he was a sinner and Jesus was perfect and God. Wow!

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

.

I am so disappointed right now. Our wonderful pastor (Calvary Chapel) has a real burden for our community and has been talking about bringing teaching into our church on how to evangelize, and will introduce an app soon. He hasn’t announced it to the church yet but we asked him after our antennae went up—and found out it will be the Way of the Master/Ray Comfort!

We won’t allow this to be a dealbreaker because we adore our church and our pastor and feel this is where God planted us.
But just can’t in good conscience participate in this. Can’t stand the thought of our congregation going around using this technique either. I’m afraid this will change the relationship and trust level we have with our pastor and our church (in both directions) once he sees that we are not on board.
He is no dummy and carefully researches everything. So we are sure he is well aware of the controversy about this method. So we really don’t want to argue with him and make this the hill that we die on. As our pastor we feel we need to respect his decision even though we don’t agree with it.

Our stance on the method is that we wouldn’t go as far to say that it is unscriptural. There may be times to have this type of conversation with someone who is in denial. However we have major issues with it as an up-front approach and it’s definitely not our method of choice. We disagree about the Ten Commandments being used to quantify sin. We used to watch Ray a lot until we actually heard the words out of Ray’s mouth “so you need to repent…turn from your sin and put your trust in Jesus.” That is an two-step process to salvation. We also don’t believe in using scripts and the same exact approach with everyone because then we can easily get comfortable and stop depending on the Holy Spirit. So then we are ministering to a person out of our flesh. We also feel it’s pretty manipulative. Just a few of our concerns with this method.

Should we just go ahead and participate? At least some kind of evangelism will be taught and facilitated? I can’t imagine ever actually using this method as the first and only approach with a person, so it would be a lie for us to be there in the classes, actually.
I’m so bothered and a little sad. Don’t know why he would choose this teaching and method. Why didn’t he choose someone who is in Calvary Chapel?
We have enjoyed the safety of being in a denomination, so that things can’t just be brought in out of the blue. (Although Calvary Chapel isn’t technically a denomination and each church is free to do things as they are led by God—-but they all have a certain accountability.) Our church is pretty rah-rah about being a Calvary Chapel so we are shocked.
We have been through so much with churches in the past. We thought we were now safe from surprises like this.

Is this a done deal, or does the Board of Elders, congregational assembly, etc. still have to vote/approve it? If it's not a done deal, I'd make my views and concerns known to an Elder, Deacon, President of the Congregation, Pastor . . .

Would Calvary Chapel as an organization do something about this?

 

[Batman]

I am not a huge fan of the Way of the Master approach but also not a huge enemy of it. There are issues and there are good things. Chick tracts, ABC tracts, and many other "modernized" tracts have long been used to approach folks with the way to salvation. The Romans Road is something I've always felt strongly about. Would I leave over this? No. Would I withdraw from the program itself? Probably. But no matter what, this would be a possible first small red flag. Red flags are something that I do not like looking for and having to discuss and deal with. They are not fun. Many make it seem that someone who notices a red flag is paranoid, if not legalistic. I am what I am and that has a lot of stubborn walls of division that would require me to work toward an internal resolution or possibly resignation of membership, depending on the issue. The world is so complicated and so are church things. The good news here is that there is a burden for the lost.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Thanks for that - will need to take a good look at that too. Talk about presenting the gospel! Here was Jesus hanging on the cross before them all. Asking the Father for forgiveness for those present. And reassuring the thief who believed in Him—who realized on his own that he was a sinner and Jesus was perfect and God. Wow!

And the Centurion and Soldiers, who crucified Jesus, publicly proclaiming Jesus the Son of God (for which the punishment was death).
And the veil of the Temple being rent, darkness, earthquake, rocks being torn apart, graves opened . . .

There is so much theology that can be taught just from the crucifixion and immediately surrounding events, even without the betrayal and trials . . .

 

[mattfivefour]

And is the repentance toward God simply changing your mind about God?

Well, the Greek compound word translated into English as "repentance" literally means ”mind change". The question is about what are we to change our mind? The answer. I believe, is we are to change our minds about God and ourselves.

I think all Bible students and scholars would suggest that first of all we need to accept that there is a God and that He is supreme and He is worthy of honor. Then we need to realize that in comparison we really are nothing. In His presence we are as worms. He created us and has the right to do with us what He desires. We need to accept that we are so very far below Him and there's nothing we can do by ourselves to reach Him. But then we need to believe that He loves us: He loves us so very much that He's made a way for us to be reconciled to him ... if we will accept it. All of the foregoing requires us to be willing to change our minds from our own thinking as supreme to God's Word as supreme.

 

[Andiamo]

My husband is now saying we should go to the classes and ask the tough questions. Hmmm. We shouldn’t do that with a troublemaker attitude though. Guess we will see how the Lord leads us.

Also after a little looking online, I can see there is no one perfect way to evangelize. I think all of the pre-planned types of methods are imperfect.

I admit that I have only directly led two people to Christ in 25 years. (Have planted many seeds though.) With both, the Holy Spirit brought them to my attention and I just knew in my heart they would receive Christ when I talked to them. With both, the Holy Spirit all but cleared the way for me to reap. Even with the one who asked question after tough question, Speaking was so easy it was effortless. Both cried and expressed sorrow for their sin before me, with no prompting on my part. Maybe these were the only two I will ever reap in my lifetime.