Don't Be Deceived: The Rapture Happens First

As the world moves closer to another world war, which may include nuclear weapons, some speculate that the Tribulation period has already begun.

Others grow weary of waiting for the Lord’s return. How much longer will Jesus keep us on earth before He comes for us? Is He really going to keep us out of the time of the Lord’s wrath that’s rapidly approaching our world?

Please know that the Bible assures us that Lord will come for us before the start of the seven-year Tribulation, which begins the moment that the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel. This has not yet happened!

1Thessalonians 5:1-11 provides much needed encouragement regarding our hope in Jesus’ soon appearing. In this passage, the Lord through the Apostle Paul promises that we as believers in Jesus will miss the wrath of the coming Day of the Lord, which includes all of the Tribulation period.

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Don’t Be Deceived: The Rapture Happens First — Jonathan Brentner

In recent years, however, the Greek Word apostasia , translated “falling away” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, has received heightened scrutiny with many regarding this as a reference to the Rapture. Can we justify interpreting the word as a physical departure such as would point to Jesus’ appearing to ta

www.jonathanbrentner.com

 

[Andy C]

1Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, although he is owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3So we too, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elementary principles of the world. 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons and daughters. 6Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. Gal.4

Im a little confused. Are you implying we are not adopted at the moment of salvation?

 

[mattfivefour]

In the Talmud the rabbis teach that Jesus is boiling in excrement in hell. They changed His name to a curse word Yesu. If they were jealous of the church's relationship with God they would embrace the gospel, not be an enemy of it. They forbid the reading of Isa.53. They are attempting to make the preaching of the gospel illegal in the Knesset. After 7 years training the rabbis don't even know the word Yeshua is all over the OT for their teachers only use selected Scriptures. They forbid the reading of the Book of Daniel saying it is too holy and a sin to read it. This is because Daniel states that after the Anointed One is cut off the temple will be destroyed.

If you go into an orthodox city and preach the gospel you are going to be threatened with murder - not out of jealousy but from the same hatred that crucified Yeshua. They still reject Him with the same hatred. This isn't jealousy.

As for the church being a well defined nation in Scripture, that is beyond question. God, who is the One who gives names to all nations, makes this declaration over the church which is made up of all nations including the remnant of Jews who believe now while the veil is still over them...

9But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. 1Pet.2 NAS capitals.

Hence we understand who exactly God is referencing here...

“I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS WITH THOSE WHO ARE NOT A NATION, WITH A FOOLISH NATION I WILL ANGER YOU.”

20And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I REVEALED MYSELF TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

21But as for Israel, He says, “I HAVE SPREAD OUT MY HANDS ALL DAY LONG TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”Rom.10

Israel does not weep in disappointment that the Antichrist is not the Messiah! They weep because the veil is lifted, grace is poured out and they realize they had rejected their Messiah whom they crucified...

10“And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of pleading, so that they will look at Me whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him, like one mourning for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.11On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves;13the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves;14all the families that are left, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.Zech.12

 

[mattfivefour]

Im a little confused. Are you implying we are not adopted at the moment of salvation?

This is one of the parts I am eager to hear our brother explain.

 

[PaidInFull]

Im a little confused. Are you implying we are not adopted at the moment of salvation?

By faith we agree with God while we are in a state of hope for adoption, that we are the sons of God. Is our redemption complete? Not until we are in heaven in new bodies. Is our adoption complete? Not until we have new bodies and we appear before the Father for adoption.

Let's break this down so we understand what hope we have been saved into, the hope of adoption AFTER we are saved...

23And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it. ROM.8

We are heirs-in-waiting. We are supposed to be eagerly waiting to be made full of-age heirs. We have been justified by grace, and placed in a state of hope for this promise...

“That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” TITUS.3:7

So how are we made heirs? By adoption. It doesn't say we have been justified by grace and made heirs, but we are given this hope of being made heirs.

So we go back to this hope...

4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons and daughters. 6Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. Gal.4

So we are no longer slaves but heirs of God. How do we receive our inheritance? It is by adoption that it is proven we are the true heirs of God...

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Eph.1:13-14

Is that clear? We have already obtained the rights to our inheritance because we the born again sons of God and so we are heirs-in-waiting, but we are eagerly waiting our adoption for we are yet to acquire possession of our inheritance. As a guarantee that this will come to pass we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who is now resident in us as a deposit guarantee. In heaven the Holy Spirit and Jesus will be witnesses that we are legitimate sons of God when the legalities of adoption are finalized for we have to be there in person...

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:3-4 (ESV)

To be clear, we have the spirit of adoption, but like our redemption, it is yet to be completed in heaven...

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rm.8:15-17.

So let's not get this mixed up...

1) The reason God sent Jesus to redeem us was so the Father could adopt us.

2) In this hope of adoption we were saved. and hope means we don't have it yet.

3) So we are eagerly waiting the redemption of our bodies and our adoption.

4) But we have the spirit of adoption crying our Daddy God, send Your Son to being us to You for adoption.

5) The Holy Spirit in us is the guarantee of our inheritance to come.

6) This inheritance demands our appearance in heaven...

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:3-4 (ESV)

 

[mattfivefour]

Interesting. But since we are sealed and our adoption is, according to Scripture, a done deal --in our position in God's eyes, although awaiting a change in our actual condition (ie: possession of our eternal, incorruptible bodies)-- are we not complicating things by attempting to break down a legal process that takes place in a place, a condition, and an order that is beyond our limited human comprehension at this time? Are we not at risk of creating fear and doubt in some believers about their actual security as heirs by essentially splitting hairs (for example the correct understanding of the subjunctive in Titus 3:11)?

Is all this really productive for the average Christian? That is my chief concern-- the God-given security of the believer and their ability to enjoy an increasingly intimate relationship with their God and Savior who loves them beyond measure. For many Christians that knowledge and security of their relationship with God is, at this moment, still tenuous. And I fear in such deep discussions as this that we can shake a young believer's confidence in their guaranteed standing before God.

So, while biblical adoption followed a certain process (which we are taking as a type), are the mechanics of that process when applied to our spiritual adoption (the anti-type) necessary for a believer to understand in this life? You seem to suggest it is. And while I do not wish to dispute your learning or disparage your studies in any way, in this case, and for the security of ALL believers, I must stand for the simplicity of the Gospel. Surely the bottom line is that at the very moment of placing their faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us at Calvary, a believer is instantly translated from the domain of darkness to the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, forgiven, redeemed, adopted, and sealed for all eternity. And is that not enough? The mechanics of it all are up to God; surely, brother, we just need to accept the gift and live in complete confidence in the result.

 

[PaidInFull]

Interesting. But since we are sealed and our adoption is, according to Scripture, a done deal --in our position in God's eyes, although awaiting a change in our actual condition (ie: possession of our eternal, incorruptible bodies)-- are we not complicating things by attempting to break down a legal process that takes place in a place, a condition, and an order that is beyond our limited human comprehension at this time? Are we not at risk of creating great and doubt in some believers about their actual security as heirs by essentially splitting hairs (for example the correct understanding of the subjunctive in Titus 3:11)?

Is all this really productive for the average Christian? That is my chief concern-- the God-given security of the believer and their ability to enjoy an increasingly intimate relationship with their God and Savior who loves them beyond measure. For many Christians that knowledge and security of their relationship with God is, at this moment, still tenuous. And I fear in such deep discussions as this that we can shake a young believer's confidence in their guaranteed standing before God.

So, while biblical adoption followed a certain process (which we are taking as a type), are the mechanics of that process when applied to our spiritual adoption (the anti-type) necessary for a believer to understand in this life? You seem to suggest it is. And while I do not wish to dispute your learning or disparage your studies in any way, in this case, and for the security of ALL believers, I must stand for the simplicity of the Gospel. Surely the bottom line is that at the very moment of placing their faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us at Calvary, a believer is instantly translated from the domain of darkness to the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, forgiven, redeemed, adopted, and sealed for all eternity. And is that not enough? The mechanics of it all are up to God; surely, brother, we just need to accept the gift and live in complete confidence in the result.

Addressing the eternal security of the believer is quite a change of topic. As far as I am aware, I am not breaking down anything, but God is and it seems simple to me, and not complicated.

If I have received it all, then I don't hope for it. It is as you say, a done deal and there is nothing more to hope for or to be done. I go to heaven for what? What does Biblical hope mean? It means to expect a future fulfillment on top of our present experience...

24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

And what exactly are we hoping for, waiting for with patience?

we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

How can I be waiting for the rapture, the redemption of my body, but not be also waiting for my adoption. The two are bound together and inseparable.

You ask, Are we not at risk of creating great and doubt in some believers about their actual security as heirs by essentially splitting hairs (for example the correct understanding of the subjunctive in Titus 3:11)?

Not according to the Scriptures when taught properly, and my post was not about teaching the security of the believer which is a completely different topic. In fact hope ought to be an essential tenet of teaching our security in God and what it means to be an heir to a new believer asap...

Colossians 1:23

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

What is this hope? Well we read how it begins with the redemption of the body and our adoption. Can a new believer be secure in this hope?

Hebrews 6:18

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

What are these two immutable things that give us strong consolation in our hope? What is this hope set before us?

It is God's promise and guarantee. There can be no greater security that the Father's promise and giving us the guarantee deposit of the Holy Spirit in us. To be sure...

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Eph.1:13-14

I am an heir of God waiting for my inheritance and I wait eagerly in hope...

2nd Thessalonians 2:16

Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace.

Here we are, eagerly waiting on the rapture, the redemption of our bodies and our adoption, so how does God expect the believer to live? Like this...

1st Peter 1:13

Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Do I have grace now? Of course I do. I was saved by grace. Do I need to hope for more grace when the rapture happens? You bet I do!

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Colossians 1:23

When we are discussing the eternal security of the believer, it is a different topic, but one essential element is to be well grounded in the promise and guarantee of what is to come at the revelation of Jesus in the rapture.

Am I the righteousness of God in Christ here and now? Of course I am. But only because of the hope God has given me that I place my faith in...

Galatians 5:5

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Paul is quite blunt about this...

1st Corinthians 15:19

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

To every young believer I'd be teaching..

Romans 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

And making it clear what our hope is...

Colossians 1:27

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

There are so many depressed believers, oppressed by difficult circumstances and what they need is an injection of hope for the glory ahead of us, and that begins with the redemption of our bodies at the rapture and our adoption as heirs and joint heirs with the Son.

Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1st John 3:3

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

The only force that is stronger than the hope God gives us is the love of God, and it is the love of God that brings us hope. The hope that we have is...

God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath, 18so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us. 19This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and reliable and one which enters within the veil, 20where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Heb.6

The soul is our mind, will and emotion, and the God of all hope gives us hope for what is to come as an anchor of the soul, sure and steadfast. So in my mind, teaching about the hope in the redemption of the body and our adoption, when fully explained, is the one thing that gives security to all believer because it proves the love of God doesn't end at the cross, it was only the beginning!

Adoption is a beginning, God has much more is store for us!

 

[mattfivefour]

Thank you for your explanation, brother. It clarifies concerns I had.

The soul is our mind, will and emotion, and the God of all hope gives us hope for what is to come as an anchor of the soul, sure and steadfast. So in my mind, teaching about the hope in the redemption of the body and our adoption, when fully explained, is the one thing that gives security to all believer because it proves the love of God doesn't end at the cross, it was only the beginning!

Adoption is a beginning, God has much more is store for us!

Amen!

(Btw. I wasn't suggesting you were in any way teaching on the security of the believer, which is indeed an entirely different subject. I was only worried that some of your teaching on adoption might cause some young believers to worry about their security because, as you said, the fullness of the actual adoption is future. But clearly in your latest response you have cleared that up. Again, thank you.)

 

[Everlasting Life]

As far as the pre-Trib Rapture goes, what convinced me out of Scripture,without any input from anyone else, was the simple fact that Jesus said that we are saved from God's wrath (John 3:36; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Romans 5:9) . We're not saved through the wrath, we're not saved in the wrath, we're saved from the wrath. The Greek is ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς (apo tes orges), literally "away from the wrath or vengeance." The preposition apo (ἀπὸ) means "away from" in a complete sense. It speaks of a state of separation; in other words, of distance. It speaks of a removing. There is no way in the Greek language through which God gave us the meaning of the New Covenant that it could imply a remaining in something. We are not simply protected from the effects of God's vengeance: we are removed from His vengeance entirely. It is as certain as the truth of God's Word itself that we will not in any way go through the time of God's wrath being poured out on an unbelieving and wicked world. For me that ends all discussion on the matter.

My brain is still humming about this subject of wrath you brought up mattfivefour. Something that just occurred to me is that if we are in Christ, the body of Christ....why would God put Jesus through double payment for sin through His body, the Church in the Tribulation?

When Jesus asked Paul, 'Why are you persecuting me' in Acts 9:4, I learn that Jesus is so connected to His Bride, the Church that those who persecute the Church.... are in essence also persecuting Him. Whatever happens to the Church, Jesus is directly affected as if it's happening to Him.

He already died on the cross (took on God's wrath) for the Church, it's a done deal, once and for all so then, if God's wrath descended upon the world with the Church enduring this as well during the Tribulation (which I don't read it to be in the Bible) well then, that would also put Jesus under God's wrath again..... wouldn't it?


That doesn't add up theologically to me.

But Jesus said it is finished, He paid for the Church's sin (actually the whole World's) once and for all time....not to have to do so ever again.

This tells me that the Church is going to be with Christ in Heaven when the wrath of God comes upon the earth, in the Tribulation when those seals are unleashed.




In reading all of this thread some thoughts come to mind I'm just throwing out for discussion and kind making sure I'm understanding what I'm reading. What I do know is my salvation is secure as Jesus says in many passages like this:

“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

John 5:24

I suspect we all agree with this.


As I'm thinking about the adoption discussion and passages shared, what's coming to mind is the idea that Jesus' Bride (the saved Church through faith in Him) is adopted by God, thus the Bride calls God the Father, her father as well. It sounds like a legal aspect much like marriage here on earth in regards to Father.....in Law. So, this feels like God the Father confirming His Son's Bride (she's not having to pass the mustard again here, she already did through faith in Jesus and His applied work on the cross on her behalf). But.....in a shoring up the legal aspect sort of way. The legal aspect being discussed also feels protective and to insure that there be no underhanded loophole whatsoever for evil entities to get at His Son's beloved Bride.

To legally keep her safe with God the Father and God the Son of whom she will be co-heirs with Christ, sharing in His inheritance, so the Bride will never have any doubts of her position. Again this feels like a further protective move towards finalizing legal precidence for permanent, unhindered dwelling of the Bride with God in Heaven. And once that legal procedure has started (through faith in Christ here on earth), God will ensure that the procedure will finish to the triumphant end.....I'm thinking of scriptures like these:

Now you have every spiritual gift you need as you eagerly wait for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 He will keep you strong to the end so that you will be free from all blame on the day when our Lord Jesus Christ returns. 9 God will do this, for he is faithful to do what he says, and he has invited you into partnership with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:18

Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault. Jude 24

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith....... Hebrews 12:2


That's kind of what's percolating in my mind.



What's interesting about the adoption aspect or the legal aspect is also the marriage of the Lamb aspect too. As I understand, like the Jewish weddings of old, a couple would become engaged (and as I understand at which point the couple was considered legally connected somehow). Then the Bride stays at her home, awaiting to be taken by and with her betrothed to His Father's house.

It's different then our own culture's engagement (which can be broken off) and then marriage, in that the engagement of the Jewish bride to her betrothed carried a more hefty commitment at the point of engagement...or betrothal as if they were considered married already in a legal sense. I think this may point to our faith in Jesus and His assurance of our future place with him, while still here on earth waiting for Him to bring us home. It's at the point of being in Heaven with Jesus and God that some of these other things happen that is seen in Revelation, perhaps.....fulfills the rest of the legal process?

It seems what's also being said is that at the point of the finalization of legal procedures in Heaven, that's what precipitates satan and his minions being kicked out instead of the Bride (as satan has worked tirelessly to bring about.....what he works towards instead happens to him).

I'm just trying to sum up in different words what I think is being discussion and hopefully move towards clarity.

 

[mattfivefour]

I like your thinking!

 

[PaidInFull]

My brain is still humming about this subject of wrath you brought up mattfivefour. Something that just occurred to me is that if we are in Christ, the body of Christ....why would God put Jesus through double payment for sin through His body, the Church in the Tribulation?

When Jesus asked Paul, 'Why are you persecuting me' in Acts 9:4, I learn that Jesus is so connected to His Bride, the Church that those who persecute the Church.... are in essence also persecuting Him. Whatever happens to the Church, Jesus is directly affected as if it's happening to Him.

He already died on the cross (took on God's wrath) for the Church, it's a done deal, once and for all so then, if God's wrath descended upon the world with the Church enduring this as well during the Tribulation (which I don't read it to be in the Bible) well then, that would also put Jesus under God's wrath again..... wouldn't it?


That doesn't add up theologically to me.

But Jesus said it is finished, He paid for the Church's sin (actually the whole World's) once and for all time....not to have to do so ever again.

This tells me that the Church is going to be with Christ in Heaven when the wrath of God comes upon the earth, in the Tribulation when those seals are unleashed.




In reading all of this thread some thoughts come to mind I'm just throwing out for discussion and kind making sure I'm understanding what I'm reading. What I do know is my salvation is secure as Jesus says in many passages like this:

“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

John 5:24

I suspect we all agree with this.


As I'm thinking about the adoption discussion and passages shared, what's coming to mind is the idea that Jesus' Bride (the saved Church through faith in Him) is adopted by God, thus the Bride calls God the Father, her father as well. It sounds like a legal aspect much like marriage here on earth in regards to Father.....in Law. So, this feels like God the Father confirming His Son's Bride (she's not having to pass the mustard again here, she already did through faith in Jesus and His applied work on the cross on her behalf). But.....in a shoring up the legal aspect sort of way. The legal aspect being discussed also feels protective and to insure that there be no underhanded loophole whatsoever for evil entities to get at His Son's beloved Bride.

To legally keep her safe with God the Father and God the Son of whom she will be co-hiers with Christ, sharing in His interitence, so the Bride will never have any doubts of her position. Again this feels like a further protective move towards finalizing legal precidence for permanent, unhindered dwelling of the Bride with God in Heaven. And once that legal procedure has started (through faith in Christ here on earth), God will ensure that the procedure will finish to the triumphant end.....I'm thinking of scriptures like these:

Now you have every spiritual gift you need as you eagerly wait for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 He will keep you strong to the end so that you will be free from all blame on the day when our Lord Jesus Christ returns. 9 God will do this, for he is faithful to do what he says, and he has invited you into partnership with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:18

Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault. Jude 24

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith....... Hebrews 12:2


That's kind of what's percolating in my mind.



What's interesting about the adoption aspect or the legal aspect is also the marriage of the Lamb aspect too. As I understand, like the Jewish weddings of old, a couple would become engaged (and as I understand at which point the couple was considered legally connected somehow). Then the Bride stays at her home, awaiting to be taken by and with her betrothed to His Father's house.

It's different then our own culture's engagement (which can be broken off) and then marriage, in that the engagement of the Jewish bride to her betrothed carried a more hefty commitment at the point of engagement...or betrothal as if they were considered married already in a legal sense. I think this may point to our faith in Jesus and His assurance of our future place with him, while still here on earth waiting for Him to bring us home. It's at the point of being in Heaven with Jesus and God that some of these other things happen that is seen in Revelation, perhaps.....fulfills the rest of the legal process?

It seems what's also being said is that at the point of the finalization of legal procedures in Heaven, that's what precipitates satan and his minions being kicked out instead of the Bride (as satan has worked tirelessly to bring about.....what he works towards instead happens to him).

I'm just trying to sum up in different words what I think is being discussion and hopefully move towards clarity.

Next weekend I shall explain what adoption actually involves and also cover the wrath of God as this causes so much debate regarding the timing of the rapture.

 

[Matthew6:33]

As for the church being a well defined nation in Scripture, that is beyond question. God, who is the One who gives names to all nations, makes this declaration over the church which is made up of all nations including the remnant of Jews who believe now while the veil is still over them...

9But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. 1Pet.2 NAS capitals.

Hence we understand who exactly God is referencing here...

“I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS WITH THOSE WHO ARE NOT A NATION, WITH A FOOLISH NATION I WILL ANGER YOU.”

1 Pet 2:9 is not a great translation IMO. The English word "Nation" is the Greek word Ehnos which can be defined a number of ways in English but the most common way is a "multitude of people that live together"

Romans 10:19 is supporting the fact that the Church is not a Nation ("group of people that live together," right, they are not bound by a border). Israel is the the Nation. The Church actually has no boundaries on Earth... With a "foolish multitude of people" I will anger you... The preaching of the cross is foolishness 1 Cor 1:18.

This is the reason the first 3 Gospels preach "The Kingdom of God is at hand" because if the NATIONAL leadership of Israel accepted Jesus as their Davidic King (Messiah) at that time, the 1000 year Kingdom would have started right then (obviously this didn't happen and God knew it wouldn't and He had His reasons) but that is beside the point.

Israel does not weep in disappointment that the Antichrist is not the Messiah! They weep because the veil is lifted, grace is poured out and they realize they had rejected their Messiah whom they crucified...

10“And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of pleading, so that they will look at Me whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him, like one mourning for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.11On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves;13the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves;14all the families that are left, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.Zech.12

I think you are saying that the Rapture is the moment in time that the veil is lifted from Israel? However, Zech 12 makes it seem more like Israel has just been betrayed and many nations are coming against it so the Lord is their only hope to be rescued from their enemies. I think that the veil is likely lifted at the moment the AC betrays them and sets up the abomination of desolation. Of coarse I have no way of proving this as a fact other than I think Israel will be very pleased with the AC for the first 3.5 years of the tribulation because he brings peace and security to the region.

My hats off to you, you have obviously studied this topic very much and I have heard some things that I have never heard before which are of great interest to me. But I think the main thing I am stumbling over is that I don't see the Church defined as a Nation (a location) in the Bible. I also have a hard time seeing the moment of the Rapture as the time when the veil is lifted from Israel's eyes.

 

[mattfivefour]

1 Pet 2:9 is not a great translation IMO. The English word "Nation" is the Greek word Ehnos which can be defined a number of ways in English but the most common way is a "multitude of people that live together"

Respectfully, brother, I think you are wrong to dismiss the common translation of 1st Peter 2:9. There are a number of reasons for this, all of them lexical; but let me present just one.

1 Peter 2:9 is, chiefly, a direct reference to Exodus 19:5-6 in which God tells Moses to tell Israel: "'Now if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, you will be My treasured possession out of all the nations—for the whole earth is Mine. And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites." Peter is specifically applying this promise given to Israel to the Church.

The original word translated "nations" in the phrase "out of all the nations" in Exodus 19:5 is עַם (am) and is used repeatedly in the Old Testament to refer to the nations in general and also to Israel; but most frequently it is translated "people" or "peoples". The original word translated "nation" in the phrase "a holy nation" in Exodus 19:6 is גּוֹי (goy) which is usually reserved for nations other than Israel, but not always. For example in Zephaniah 2:9 the two words are used interchangeably to refer to Israel:

"Therefore, as I live," says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, “Surely Moab shall be like Sodom, And the sons of Ammon like Gomorrah— overrun with weeds and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation. The residue of My people (עַם) shall plunder them, and the remnant of My people (גּוֹי) shall possess them.”​

But that is an aside that I have included simply the show that we cannot be always too literal in the translation of words, saying that one properly means this and the other properly means that. Let's return to it specific verses.

The fact is that goy refers to nations and peoples, meaning ethnic groups, and in Exodus 18:6 it is the specific word used in the phrase "a holy nation" ... the very phrase that the apostle directly quotes in 1 Peter 2:9. Therefore it is, in my view (and in that of the majority of those who, unlike myself, are true Greek scholars) that the common translation of this verse -- including the words "a holy nation"-- is the correct one. The Church is as surely a nation before God as was (and is) Israel.

 

[Matthew6:33]

Respectfully, brother, I think you are wrong to dismiss the common translation of 1st Peter 2:9. There are a number of reasons for this, all of them lexical; but let me present just one.

1 Peter 2:9 is, chiefly, a direct reference to Exodus 19:5-6 in which God tells Moses to tell Israel: "'Now if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, you will be My treasured possession out of all the nations—for the whole earth is Mine. And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites." Peter is specifically applying this promise given to Israel to the Church.

The original word translated "nations" in the phrase "out of all the nations" in Exodus 19:5 is עַם (am) and is used repeatedly in the Old Testament to refer to the nations in general and also to Israel; but most frequently it is translated "people" or "peoples". The original word translated "nation" in the phrase "a holy nation" in Exodus 19:6 is גּוֹי (goy) which is usually reserved for nations other than Israel, but not always. For example in Zephaniah 2:9 the two words are used interchangeably to refer to Israel:

"Therefore, as I live," says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, “Surely Moab shall be like Sodom, And the sons of Ammon like Gomorrah— overrun with weeds and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation. The residue of My people (עַם) shall plunder them, and the remnant of My people (גּוֹי) shall possess them.”​

But that is an aside that I have included simply the show that we cannot be always too literal in the translation of words, saying that one properly means this and the other properly means that. Let's return to it specific verses.

The fact is that goy refers to nations and peoples, meaning ethnic groups, and in Exodus 18:6 it is the specific word used in the phrase "a holy nation" ... the very phrase that the apostle directly quotes in 1 Peter 2:9. Therefore it is, in my view (and in that of the majority of those who, unlike myself, are true Greek scholars) that the common translation of this verse -- including the words "a holy nation"-- is the correct one. The Church is as surely a nation before God as was (and is) Israel.

I see what you are saying but how can the Church be a nation like Israel? The Church is international and has no boundary.

I know the Bible defines the Church as the body of Christ. Eph 1:22-23, 4:15-16, Romans 8:9, 1 Cor 12

I know the Bible also defines the Church as the bride of Christ. John 3:28-29, Rev 19:7, 21:2, 9.

I understood the Church and Redeemed Israel (through the Tribulation) to be two different and distinct programs.

Maybe the confusion is coming because 1 Peter 2:9 is also speaking to converted Jews that have accepted Christ. This would make them part of the Church and part of the Nation of Israel? Maybe it is all semantics?

 

[PaidInFull]

1 Pet 2:9 is not a great translation IMO. The English word "Nation" is the Greek word Ehnos which can be defined a number of ways in English but the most common way is a "multitude of people that live together"

Romans 10:19 is supporting the fact that the Church is not a Nation ("group of people that live together," right, they are not bound by a border). Israel is the the Nation. The Church actually has no boundaries on Earth... With a "foolish multitude of people" I will anger you... The preaching of the cross is foolishness 1 Cor 1:18.

This is the reason the first 3 Gospels preach "The Kingdom of God is at hand" because if the NATIONAL leadership of Israel accepted Jesus as their Davidic King (Messiah) at that time, the 1000 year Kingdom would have started right then (obviously this didn't happen and God knew it wouldn't and He had His reasons) but that is beside the point.



I think you are saying that the Rapture is the moment in time that the veil is lifted from Israel? However, Zech 12 makes it seem more like Israel has just been betrayed and many nations are coming against it so the Lord is their only hope to be rescued from their enemies. I think that the veil is likely lifted at the moment the AC betrays them and sets up the abomination of desolation. Of coarse I have no way of proving this as a fact other than I think Israel will be very pleased with the AC for the first 3.5 years of the tribulation because he brings peace and security to the region.

My hats off to you, you have obviously studied this topic very much and I have heard some things that I have never heard before which are of great interest to me. But I think the main thing I am stumbling over is that I don't see the Church defined as a Nation (a location) in the Bible. I also have a hard time seeing the moment of the Rapture as the time when the veil is lifted from Israel's eyes.

You are incorrect when you say "Ehnos which can be defined a number of ways in English but the most common way is "A multitude of people that live together."

The problem is that when a word is taken out of context then, yes, you are correct, but not when placed in proper context. Here is what I mean. If you go to BibleHub dot com and check over 40 different English translations it is clear that almost every version translates it as nation or race.

If we go to the commentaries, they are all referencing what Adrian mentions, that we are under a blood covenant with God and are one nation.

It would be very easy to load this post with this verse in dozens of versions, dozens of commentaries and dozens of sermons by famed theologians to demonstrate that the most common way, in fact the almost unanimous way is not a multitude of people dwelling together but as a holy nation spread across the globe that does not dwell together.

But there is an even more simple proof. Our nationality is shown by our passport to determine which country we are citizens of. We are all holding one passport, for we are all citizens of heaven. That is the final proof we are one nation under God.

You are correct in that we are a mixture of different tongues, tribes, kins and nations on earth, yet God redeems us out of the nations by His blood covenant, makes us all citizens of heaven and one holy nation belonging to Him as priests and kings. We see the church thus round the throne of God before the scroll is opened...

Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev.5

So there you are, witnessing how we are redeemed out of the Ehnos, and made a nation by blood covenant. I am sorry if I sound blunt, but it's difficult to frame this any other way as the evidence is overwhelming. Take the KJV for example (and I am not KJV only): it had 47 translators from Cambridge and Oxford. When we are looking at dozens of translations over centuries all in agreement we see hundreds of Professors, experts in the language and translations skill all in agreement that therefore it is impossible to come to any other conclusion that correct translation is the church is a holy nation before God.

Now regarding the veil being lifted from Israel at the sight of the abomination, it's too late! Why? Because Satan's plan is for the abomination to take place on the Sabbath and in winter. The only thing stopping him will be the prayers of the Jewish believers that already had the veil lifted off them well before the abomination.

Moreover, without the veil being lifted, 2/3rds of the nation won't be reading the gospels to know of Jesus' warning to flee immediately. The veil needs to be lifted after the covenant of death, after the rapture of the church but well before the abomination.

Israel will be provoked to jealousy because very soon in 2024, once again they will celebrate the gates of heaven being opened, the marriage of the Messiah, lift up the wave offering and wave it to God, blow the trumpet 99 times and then celebrate the last trump, the 100th blast, all in the feast that is called "no one knows the day or hour", and in their celebrations they will also have the theme of the beginning of the time of Jacob's trouble winch doesn't fit unless there is the rapture.

Remember, we may be in different nations, but you and I are both citizens of heaven. To reinforce this Jesus said we are not of this world, for we are strangers and exiles, God's ambassadors in a foreign land where we do not belong. We are under one blood covenant with one Father and one city as our home, and we are one holy nation, and holy means set aside for God for His purposes out of the world.

Blessings.

 

[mattfivefour]

I see what you are saying but how can the Church be a nation like Israel? The Church is international and has no boundary.

Perhaps, my brother, your definition of the meaning of the word "nation" is too narrow?

The Oxford Dictionary defines nation as "a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.” By that definition, could the Church be a nation. You would say no, because they do not inhabit a particular country or territory. But you are thinking naturally. The fact is that we do occupy a spiritual territory-- the Kingdom of God here on earth. We are also a very large body of people, and we are united by a common descent, for each of us is adopted into this group by the blood of the same person: Jesus Christ. And while our earthly cultures are different and our earthly languages are varied, any Christian from anywhere can go to any earthly country and walk into a church service there and find commonality and feel loved and at home despite the differences in language and cultural practices. And finally, we all have a common history which is found recorded in both the Old and New Testaments. I would say we meet every criterion for a nation.

And if that isn't enough, the Bible refers to us, the Church, in 1st Peter 2:9 as "a holy nation" (in other words, a nation different from every other nation on earth.) For me, that seals it. All that was necessary was to look at things from a spiritual perspective, rather than an earthly one.

(ETA: @PaidInFull-- I was writing my post at the same time as you, and did not see what you had posted until I had posted mine. I did not mean to step on your post.)

 

[Matthew6:33]

So after the Rapture and Great Tribulation, in the Millennial Kingdom, is the Church and Israel going to be fulfilling the same role?

 

[PaidInFull]

Perhaps, my brother, your definition of the meaning of the word "nation" is too narrow?

The Oxford Dictionary defines nation as "a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.” By that definition, could the Church be a nation. You would say no, because they do not inhabit a particular country or territory. But you are thinking naturally. The fact is that we do occupy a spiritual territory-- the Kingdom of God here on earth. We are also a very large body of people, and we are united by a common descent, for each of us is adopted into this group by the blood of the same person: Jesus Christ. And while our earthly cultures are different and our earthly languages are varied, any Christian from anywhere can go to any earthly country and walk into a church service there and find commonality and feel loved and at home despite the differences in language and cultural practices. And finally, we all have a common history which is found recorded in both the Old and New Testaments. I would say we meet every criterion for a nation.

And if that isn't enough, the Bible refers to us, the Church, in 1st Peter 2:9 as "a holy nation" (in other words, a nation different from every other nation on earth.) For me, that seals it. All that was necessary was to look at things from a spiritual perspective, rather than an earthly one.

(ETA: @PaidInFull-- I was writing my post at the same time as you, and did not see what you had posted until I had posted mine. I did not mean to step on your post.)

Thanks for that. I had to down a couple of bottles of Irish whisky to steady my nerves, but now you have cleared that up with your Estimated Time of Arrival I can control my shakes better. I hope you have a soft landing.

For those who don't know me, I'll translate that from the Irish...

Adrian, you can comment on any of my posts, I'm not that sensitive and I value your opinion very highly. Keep it up bro

 

[Kaatje]

Thanks for that. I had to down a couple of bottles of Irish whisky to steady my nerves, but now you have cleared that up with your Estimated Time of Arrival I can control my shakes better. I hope you have a soft landing.

For those who don't know me, I'll translate that from the Irish...

Adrian, you can comment on any of my posts, I'm not that sensitive and I value your opinion very highly. Keep it up bro

Like a very good brother and friend of mine always says:

"Iron sharpens iron"

(Hmmm, wonder who said that... must be some new member here...)

 

[PaidInFull]

I may not be able to pick up on my theme of ADOPTION until the weekend.

So far we have seen that the Father sent His Son to redeem us so Jesus could bring us to the Father for adoption. That basically is meaningless unless we understand the ceremony and why it causes the devil to be kicked out of heaven.

Our adoption as God's sons and daughters cost the Trinity the highest price anyone ever paid for anything - that is how important adoption is, but we missed the gold seam of teaching that will fill your hearts with joy.

If there is no adoption... there is no inheritance. If there is no inheritance... we are not blessed with every blessing in heavenly places. If there is no inheritance for the church... there is no inheritance for His Son as the Father bound us together as joint-heirs.

IF we don't get to heaven... there is no adoption. We are in a state of hope for what is to come, but the devil is also in a state of hope for what he wants to come. We are in a legal dispute and God gave us two advocates (you only need an advocate when a legal dispute is not yet settled).

When I ask post-tribbers when, where, why and how they are going to meet the Father and what about His guarantee... I soon get banned. This is why Jesus died for us, to bring us to the Father for lots of legal events to be satisfied, all with tremendous ceremonies and celebrations and eventually we get to the marriage of the Lamb, but not until the bride is made glorious with the blessings the Father bestows on her.

My end goal is not to make you smarter, but to bring you into a deeper relationship with each member of the Godhead as we see how they deal with the legal quagmire Adam got us into, how that began at the cross when Jesus work was finished at the mercy seat in heaven (apart from His promise and obligation as Forerunner to come). Then it was time for the Holy Spirit to prepare us on earth. Finally it will be the Father who completes His plan from before the world began.

Blessings!

 

[mattfivefour]

My end goal is not to make you smarter, but to bring you into a deeper relationship with each member of the Godhead as we see how they deal with the legal quagmire Adam got us into, how that began at the cross when Jesus work was finished at the mercy seat in heaven

I am really looking forward to reading your insight into this, Hugh!