Don't Be Deceived: The Rapture Happens First

As the world moves closer to another world war, which may include nuclear weapons, some speculate that the Tribulation period has already begun.

Others grow weary of waiting for the Lord’s return. How much longer will Jesus keep us on earth before He comes for us? Is He really going to keep us out of the time of the Lord’s wrath that’s rapidly approaching our world?

Please know that the Bible assures us that Lord will come for us before the start of the seven-year Tribulation, which begins the moment that the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel. This has not yet happened!

1Thessalonians 5:1-11 provides much needed encouragement regarding our hope in Jesus’ soon appearing. In this passage, the Lord through the Apostle Paul promises that we as believers in Jesus will miss the wrath of the coming Day of the Lord, which includes all of the Tribulation period.

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Don’t Be Deceived: The Rapture Happens First — Jonathan Brentner

In recent years, however, the Greek Word apostasia , translated “falling away” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, has received heightened scrutiny with many regarding this as a reference to the Rapture. Can we justify interpreting the word as a physical departure such as would point to Jesus’ appearing to ta

www.jonathanbrentner.com

 

[LightOfMyLife]

The rapture is our Blessed Hope. Here is another good scripture. Titus 2:12-15

 

[3Nails4Given]

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.”
‭‭I Thessalonians‬ ‭4‬:‭16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. | New King James Version (NKJV) | Download The Bible App Now

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

bible.com

“After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Revelation 4:1-2 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which | New King James Version (NKJV)

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which

bible.com

 

[Andiamo]

Jesus said the gathering happens AFTER the tribulation. I believe him.

I agree with others here that we can all be free to disagree on this subject of the rapture , and not argue about it, but still be in fellowship.

 

[Matthew6:33]

I find it interesting how the devil is so against the Pre-Trib doctrine. No other non-salvation doctrine comes under such attack in the body of Christ. To me, that says a lot, if not all I need to know.

What other doctrine comforts Christians and encourages us to take an active stance in evangelism to tell others about Jesus so they are not left behind for the Tribulation? I am not comforted by the thought of having to go through God's wrath. If I have to suffer through God's wrath, why did Christ die to save me? What did he save me from? And no we are not "protected through the Tribulation period." This makes no sense at all because if we were, God sure has a strange way of protecting his Church by allowing massive numbers of martyrdoms (beheadings) unlike any other time in history.

Preterist, Post Tribulation, and Mid Tribulation believers should seriously consider these common sense questions.

 

[bigMoose]

harmonicat, I hope you are still here. Let me add my take on the plurality of scripture and the character of God... Does it make sense that the Father would "beat up" (as in go through the tribulation) the bride of Christ, bought at such a price?

 

[Andiamo]

What I don’t understand is how bothered Christians get over the fact that we believe this. They don’t get nearly as bothered over Christians who believe in other things that they don’t agree with. In those cases, they will calmly state their view, and keep fellowship. But they get hot under the collar the minute they realize that we believe in the pre-trib rapture. And will treat us like heretics.

 

[Andiamo]

I have a friend IRL who is sadly a preterist and believes in replacement theology. We are able to have conversations and neither treats the other as a heretic.
A rare thing indeed.

 

[Batman]

This forum has a right to set up the standard as in full belief and support of a pre tribulation rapture. To me that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it, but we probably wouldn't want them to pound away over and over and over against it; especially if disharmony and division develops. I will go to my grave (or the rapture) believing in a pre tribulation rapture, and that is a big thing with me in wanting to be a part of an end-times forum with the same guiding beliefs.

 

[PaidInFull]

I have been in endless debates and discussions with post-tribbers the pre-wrathers and I am grateful for all their counter arguments against the pre-trib position (but not so much the attitude of many but they tell me it cuts both ways) because they have forced me to dig deeper to be able to refute their arguments. I have no interest in winning an argument - I only want to get closer to God and it is exceptionally rare to find teaching on this topic that does bring you closer to God.

When I ask post-tribbers, when, where and why they are meeting Father God, the post-trib doctrine begins to fall to pieces. But even when I ask pre-tribbers why we have to meet the Father it's no better. The most common answer is the marriage of the Lamb and you are way out of order on that one.

The pre-trib doctrine is the deepest, most amazing doctrine there is, the climax of all that we are in hope for and on earth it begins with a guarantee that backstops a promise of the Father, that we are heaven bound for the resolution of matters of the law. If we have the Holy Spirit in us we ought to be crying our Abba, Daddy God, come and get me! I have Your deposit guarantee and I am longing to meet you.

For 2,000 years the devil has been accusing us day and night before God, denying the efficacy of the cross and blood of Jesus while we testify that we believe in the hope God has given us of forgiveness and cleansing now and a new sinless body coming and our day in court.

There is a one day when suddenly all the accusing stops and it is a legal courtroom event that removes the devil's legal standing before God resulting in him being thrown out of heaven. The post-trib doctrine has no answer to this.

For 2,000 years Israel has been under the curse of a spirit of stupor, hardness of heart, eyes that are blind and for our sakes they are made enemies of the gospel. In one event they will be provoked to jealousy by a nation that the UN says in not a nation. The post-tribbers have no answer for this.

So what are the first things that happen immediately after the rapture? What is the plan of God all the church should be in agreement on because we are predestined for this? When we don't know these things we end up arging about the acts of God. That is not the same as the knowledge of God. Moses understood God's ways while Israel only saw His acts. Today that is the state of the church - spiritually naive and argumentative as a consequence. You can;t reverse engineer the knowledge of God from His acts - you have to begin with God Himself, His attributes and His nature and His calling and Plan.

As I posted in my intro here, I have been in-deep in study about this for 10 years and it keeps getting deeper, but something changed - my knowledge of God. Let's take the word wrath for example. Biblical wrath is first of all great emotion that results in extreme vengeance because of great provocations. So what is God's emotional state when theFather hands the seven sealed scroll to Jesus?

If you can prove that without question, there there can only be one correct rapture timing. This is one area where every other position apart from pre-trib fails. I know this because I was post-trib and set out to prove the pre-trib was an error, but discovered the oppposite. Having said that, I am disappointed in most pre-trib teaching and it doesn't do well in debates.

I hope I am provoking you to think deeper, to ask questions and to expect concrete answers.

Blessings!

 

[Matthew6:33]

I have been in endless debates and discussions with post-tribbers the pre-wrathers and I am grateful for all their counter arguments against the pre-trib position (but not so much the attitude of many but they tell me it cuts both ways) because they have forced me to dig deeper to be able to refute their arguments. I have no interest in winning an argument - I only want to get closer to God and it is exceptionally rare to find teaching on this topic that does bring you closer to God.

When I ask post-tribbers, when, where and why they are meeting Father God, the post-trib doctrine begins to fall to pieces. But even when I ask pre-tribbers why we have to meet the Father it's no better. The most common answer is the marriage of the Lamb and you are way out of order on that one.

The pre-trib doctrine is the deepest, most amazing doctrine there is, the climax of all that we are in hope for and on earth it begins with a guarantee that backstops a promise of the Father, that we are heaven bound for the resolution of matters of the law. If we have the Holy Spirit in us we ought to be crying our Abba, Daddy God, come and get me! I have Your deposit guarantee and I am longing to meet you.

For 2,000 years the devil has been accusing us day and night before God, denying the efficacy of the cross and blood of Jesus while we testify that we believe in the hope God has given us of forgiveness and cleansing now and a new sinless body coming and our day in court.

There is a one day when suddenly all the accusing stops and it is a legal courtroom event that removes the devil's legal standing before God resulting in him being thrown out of heaven. The post-trib doctrine has no answer to this.

For 2,000 years Israel has been under the curse of a spirit of stupor, hardness of heart, eyes that are blind and for our sakes they are made enemies of the gospel. In one event they will be provoked to jealousy by a nation that the UN says in not a nation. The post-tribbers have no answer for this.

So what are the first things that happen immediately after the rapture? What is the plan of God all the church should be in agreement on because we are predestined for this? When we don't know these things we end up arging about the acts of God. That is not the same as the knowledge of God. Moses understood God's ways while Israel only saw His acts. Today that is the state of the church - spiritually naive and argumentative as a consequence. You can;t reverse engineer the knowledge of God from His acts - you have to begin with God Himself, His attributes and His nature and His calling and Plan.

As I posted in my intro here, I have been in-deep in study about this for 10 years and it keeps getting deeper, but something changed - my knowledge of God. Let's take the word wrath for example. Biblical wrath is first of all great emotion that results in extreme vengeance because of great provocations. So what is God's emotional state when theFather hands the seven sealed scroll to Jesus?

If you can prove that without question, there there can only be one correct rapture timing. This is one area where every other position apart from pre-trib fails. I know this because I was post-trib and set out to prove the pre-trib was an error, but discovered the oppposite. Having said that, I am disappointed in most pre-trib teaching and it doesn't do well in debates.

I hope I am provoking you to think deeper, to ask questions and to expect concrete answers.

Blessings!

I always thought the point of the pretrib rapture was to bring the bride to the Fathers house, ending the Church age of grace, beginning the time of Jacob's trouble. The Church will be gone but God never leaves the Earth without a witness to Himself and specifically the Nation of Israel (144k, 12k from each tribe) will become this witness. Satan is evicted from heaven, able to freely express himself on Earth (the AC) and the World will finally get what they want. All false religions of mystery Babylon will become one religion and worship the beast. Ready for the Lord to tread the winepress of the fierce wrath of God Almighty. I could type much more but am I getting warm?

 

[mattfivefour]

As far as the pre-Trib Rapture goes, what convinced me out of Scripture, without any input from anyone else, was the simple fact that Jesus said that we are saved from God's wrath (John 3:36; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Romans 5:9) . We're not saved through the wrath, we're not saved in the wrath, we're saved from the wrath. The Greek is ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς (apo tes orges), literally "away from the wrath or vengeance." The preposition apo (ἀπὸ) means "away from" in a complete sense. It speaks of a state of separation; in other words, of distance. It speaks of a removing. There is no way in the Greek language through which God gave us the meaning of the New Covenant that it could imply a remaining in something. We are not simply protected from the effects of God's vengeance: we are removed from His vengeance entirely. It is as certain as the truth of God's Word itself that we will not in any way go through the time of God's wrath being poured out on an unbelieving and wicked world. For me that ends all discussion on the matter.

 

[Everlasting Life]

First of all....knock my socks off!! I thought I was misreading who was posting here for a second.

How wonderful, delightful and an answer to prayer to see you again PaidInFull!! I'm so glad you are around and doing ok, I was hoping you were! All of the church body is a blessing to one another as our precious brothers and sisters in Christ are, whether in person or online,....and sad when one in the body is not around (just communicating my joy and understanding that God may at times lead us in other directions).

This is a great thread and I love the discussion, great link Andy, I'll need to print that one out.

I hope I am provoking you to think deeper, to ask questions and to expect concrete answers.

Yes, you sure are! Ok, I'll bite and throw some stuff out there. That's what I love about Godly discourse.

For 2,000 years Israel has been under the curse of a spirit of stupor, hardness of heart, eyes that are blind and for our sakes they are made enemies of the gospel. In one event they will be provoked to jealousy by a nation that the UN says in not a nation. The post-tribbers have no answer for this.

Ok, I'm wanting to make sure I understand what you are saying here....it's sounding like you are saying that Israel is going to be provoked to jealousy by a nation (?) that the UN says is not a nation. I know that Israel is constantly being challenged on that part but are you speaking of the Church here?

If we have the Holy Spirit in us we ought to be crying our Abba, Daddy God, come and get me! I have Your deposit guarantee and I am longing to meet you.

Amen!!

There is a one day when suddenly all the accusing stops and it is a legal courtroom event that removes the devil's legal standing before God resulting in him being thrown out of heaven. The post-trib doctrine has no answer to this.

Can you expound on this a little further...or point me to where you've possibly already done so?

So what are the first things that happen immediately after the rapture?

Revelation 4: John is taken up and sees God sitting on a throne...in heaven. And then he sees 24 thrones surrounding him with 24 elders, clothed in white and gold crowns on their heads, reference to the seven fold spirit indicates the Spirit filled Church to me, or believers in Jesus. God is worshipped by all around Him.


Revelation 5:

John becomes greatly distressed because there is no man in heaven or earth to be found who's worthy to open up the seals of the scroll. As I understand those seals and the scroll is God's answer/judgment of the wicked on earth....people and the world system under satan's control. The world system has been allowed to run it's course and now it, along with those who willingly follow and it's leader, satan will be fully and finally judged and then God the Son and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit will establish God's Eternal Kingdom.....forever. AMEN!!

However the only one found worthy to open this scroll is the lamb of God, Jesus Christ because He is God and because He humbled Himself (being born in the flesh) unto death in loving sacrifice for His beloved Bride. Scripture tells us that we are in Christ, related to Christ via faith in Him and we are His body. Jesus has suffered during His physical ministry and in a sense has continued to suffer through His body, the Church on earth (in Acts He asks Paul why he's persecuting Jesus).

As I've read this passage recently what seems to be emerging in my mind is that God is now ready to judge the world system, it's committed people and satan for the abuse of Jesus Christ, His Bride and rebellion against God. God says that He will avenge.....it seems that this is what's about to happen in Rev. 5

Biblical wrath is first of all great emotion that results in extreme vengeance because of great provocations. So what is God's emotional state when theFather hands the seven sealed scroll to Jesus?

As I think about all that I've written in my own observations, I believe the motivating factor is love? Love for Jesus and His body, the Church of whom been so severely abused. The ones that the Father deeply loves have been hurt. Just as Israel is the apple of His eye, so too is Jesus and His body greatly beloved to God the Father, Who tenderly loves Jesus and His body the Church. Just as a mom will move heaven and earth to protect and sometimes even avenge her child, well, I imagine this can be a picture of God's motivation in regards to the Great Tribulation, judgement, wrath and vengeance about to come upon the earth.

This reminds me of one of David's Psalms, 18.....here's a section:


The ropes of death entangled me;
floods of destruction swept over me.
The grave[a] wrapped its ropes around me;
death laid a trap in my path.
But in my distress I cried out to the Lord;
yes, I prayed to my God for help.
He heard me from his sanctuary;
my cry to him reached his ears.

Then the earth quaked and trembled.
The foundations of the mountains shook;
they quaked because of his anger.
Smoke poured from his nostrils;
fierce flames leaped from his mouth.
Glowing coals blazed forth from him.
He opened the heavens and came down;
dark storm clouds were beneath his feet.
Mounted on a mighty angelic being,[b] he flew,
soaring on the wings of the wind.
He shrouded himself in darkness,
veiling his approach with dark rain clouds.
Thick clouds shielded the brightness around him
and rained down hail and burning coals.[c]
The Lord thundered from heaven;
the voice of the Most High resounded
amid the hail and burning coals.
He shot his arrows and scattered his enemies;
great bolts of lightning flashed, and they were confused.
Then at your command, O Lord,
at the blast of your breath,
the bottom of the sea could be seen,
and the foundations of the earth were laid bare.

He reached down from heaven and rescued me;
he drew me out of deep waters.
He rescued me from my powerful enemies,
from those who hated me and were too strong for me.
vs 4-17


And, that there's a final reckoning with those not in Christ in which they are judged and reap what their own actions have sowed.

 

[PaidInFull]

I always thought the point of the pretrib rapture was to bring the bride to the Fathers house, ending the Church age of grace, beginning the time of Jacob's trouble. The Church will be gone but God never leaves the Earth without a witness to Himself and specifically the Nation of Israel (144k, 12k from each tribe) will become this witness. Satan is evicted from heaven, able to freely express himself on Earth (the AC) and the World will finally get what they want. All false religions of mystery Babylon will become one religion and worship the beast. Ready for the Lord to tread the winepress of the fierce wrath of God Almighty. I could type much more but am I getting warm?

Adrain, are you getting warm? Yes my dear brother, of course, but you are illegal... "I always thought the point of the pretrib rapture was to bring the bride to the Fathers house, ending the Church age of grace, beginning the time of Jacob's trouble."

You are too far ahead in God's program. You are at the end, and all that's left is the feast whereas I want to deal with the beginning phase. The rapture is just the airlift to get us to court for we are going to be dealing with matters of the law. God set everything up in Genesis before the fall for the law to draw out the plan of salvation and reveal the incredible nature of God for us to truly love and fear Him. I shall be dealing with law, law, law in future posts.

As you know, redemption is in two parts: we are in a state of hope for the completion of all Christian doctrines in heaven and hope that is already fulfilled is not hope. The first problem for the betrothed bride is that we are not of God's kin, and that is the very first thing that God plans on changing.

Just as it would have been illegal for Jesus to redeem us as the Son of God in heaven, He had to become our kin... He had to put on human flesh to become one of us (our kin) so that He could fulfill the Kinsman Redeem Laws. Likewise we have to put on our new sinless heavenly bodies to become His kin, but how exactly do we become the kin of God? Being born again is only the first part because we still have this body of flesh, the Old Man who is anything but the kin of God and is the basis of the devil's legal disput in heaven.

The problem was sin separated us from God's plan for the glorious high calling of man, so the Father sent His Redeemer to destroy sin so that the Redeemer could bring us back to God for ADOPTION. This is where the post-trib crashes. The bride needs to be of the family of God, God's kin, and that first of all demands our new bodies just like Jesus... and then our adoption ceremony in heaven.

Let's check that. Why did God send Jesus to redeem us?

Galatians 4:4–5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Redemption to be adopted was always the plan...

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Here and now, while we wait for the upward call of God in Christ Jesus, we declare we are the sons of God while we are actually heirs-of-God-in-waiting, but we should be crying out for the completion of our adoption in heaven...

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

2 Corinthians 5:2-4
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.

If we are not adopted, not figuratively, not spiritually by faith, but in actuality and ceremonially and legally in heaven, then we are spiritual orphans. But we have Jesus' promise...

John 14:18
“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” NAS/NJKV

as orphans;
ὀρφανούς (orphanous)
Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's 3737: Bereaved, an orphan, fatherless, desolate. Of uncertain affinity; bereaved, i.e. Parentless.

If there is no adoption, then we are not the legal qualified heirs of God and that means we cannot receive our inheritance and Jesus can't receive His for we are bound together as joint-heirs.

The Holy Spirit in us is the guarantee of the Father to keep His promise...

Ephesians 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now let's put the purpose of redemption in the context of being an heir-in-waiting for the adoption so we receive our joint inheritance...

1Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, although he is owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3So we too, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elementary principles of the world. 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons and daughters. 6Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. Gal.4

Just as God shows in the OT that the perfect, ideal order is that Israel does not marry outside of the nation's blood covenant with God, so also before the marriage we become the blood covenant kin of God by the ceremony of adoption as a matter of law. Don't misunderstand me here. Adoption is not all about the bride qualifying to be the kin of God for marriage to His Son. Adoption has enormous legal ramifications and power to utterly destroy the devil's 2,000 year legal standing before God to accuse us and so I need to deal with that for its own merits.

It is because the church does not understand what adoption is, and why it is the primary purpose and goal of the Father in sending His Son to the terrible cross to redeem us, that when I ask believers why God sent His Son to redeem us and bring us to heaven, I'd be lucky if 1 in 100 mention adoption! Out of that 1%, few can teach on adoption.

But adoption is not the first thing that happens after the rapture, but again I shall cover that in detail another post. The first thing is that Jesus takes the church to the assembly of the firstborn in heaven, introduces Dad to us, sings His praises, then introduces us to Daddy God and then the adoption ceremony begins.

I want to emphasis this because it is missed by almost all of the church. Adoption is a huge deal. It utterly destroys the legal standing of the devil so we need to understand what adoption is all about (later). It is adoption that ends this legal debate in heaven that began in Genesis and only intensified after the cross of Christ. It destroys the devil's accusations and puts a stop to his ability to deny the efficacy of the cross and blood of Jesus before God by accusing the church of sin. It is the reason war in heaven suddenly breaks out. Michael doesn't just randomly start a war because he has had enough and nor does God.

I will be digging into this and all the many legal ramifications surrounding the rapture that magnify the wisdom, the genius of God to outsmart Satan, and the riches of His grace. There is an amazing reason why after 2000 yrs God suddenly kicks the devil out of heaven and ends his accusations and we have to get to heaven for it to happen.

 

[PaidInFull]

As far as the pre-Trib Rapture goes, what convinced me out of Scripture, without any input from anyone else, was the simple fact that Jesus said that we are saved from God's wrath (John 3:36; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Romans 5:9) . We're not saved through the wrath, we're not saved in the wrath, we're saved from the wrath. The Greek is ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς (apo tes orges), literally "away from the wrath or vengeance." The preposition apo (ἀπὸ) means "away from" in a complete sense. It speaks of a state of separation; in other words, of distance. It speaks of a removing. There is no way in the Greek language through which God gave us the meaning of the New Covenant that it could imply a remaining in something. We are not simply protected from the effects of God's vengeance: we are removed from His vengeance entirely. It is as certain as the truth of God's Word itself that we will not in any way go through the time of God's wrath being poured out on an unbelieving and wicked world. For me that ends all discussion on the matter.

All pre-tribbers agree with you, but all post tribbers and pre-wrathers disagree because they 'prove' that wrath only begins in Seal 6 because that is where it appears in the verse. Or seal 7. Or after seal 7 depending on how extreme their views are.

The wrath they argue for in the extreme is the day of the Lord and a day is 24 hrs. That's far out post-trib.

Pre-wrathers say it is the year of God's vengeance so His wrath lasts 12 mths and the rapture therefore happen about year 6.

So what about before this appearance of the word wrath, how do they explain the wrath we read of? They declare that is the wrath of the devil and man. I mean, if you nail your colors to seal 6, you have to come up with a reason for what happens before that.

If I enter into a debate with pre-wrathers and post-tribbers and say we are not destined for wrath, then I get hit with the word wrath not appearing until seal 6. In extreme cases that we are only delivered from the wrath of eternal damnation.

So we believe what we want to believe, and they believe what they want to believe, but in the end, the reality is we are declaring the heart of God for the church is as far apart in our beliefs as it can get. On one hand God wants to rescue us before the 7 years but on the other God wants us martyred.

It is close to have different God's. In fact many times I have been told I am not saved, that I am an apostate and will fall away when the antichrist comes and the pre-trib doctrine is the great deception. At the heels of the hunt, there are some teachers filled with hatred for pre-tribbers and deny the validity of our hope in gospel because it is destroyed by our belief in the pre-trib blessed hope..

This is the arena I wanted to be in so I could understand the reasons for opposing beliefs and to test my own understanding of the Scriptures. So how do we bring absolutes into this instead of having 6 different opinions (the 6th being the belief of the world that there will not be the wrath of God on the earth).

You have been trained as we all should be that you can't begin at the back His the book, we have to begin at the front of His book and work forwards to understand God's wrath or anything concerning God for that matter.

A rabbi was asked what he thought of the Book of Revelation and he declared it was a stolen document for it is taken from the OT. He's correct up to a point for Revelation is said to reference the OT over 600 times. If we want to understand God's wrath, it is the OT where we begin.

Having said that, we need to put the brakes on right away and understand why there is such confusion. Scripture tells us (Ps.103:7) that Moses understood God's ways but Israel only His acts. When we argue from the acts of God and try to reverse engineer God's heart, that is never going to work. God really is not impressed with that arms-length approach. It messed Israel up and it messes up the church if we don't learn from Israel's mistakes.

When we learn about the attributes of God, one of these is His immutability... He repeats Himself. When He shows us the model of his wrath in the OT, the responses He expects from us, how He turns the heat up if He doesn't get the repentance he hoped for, and finally if we go so far over the red line ignoring His warnings and punishments that God moves from extreme anger to outright fury, causing a total extermination of human life by increasing His wrath 7-fold, then when we get to the book of Revelation, we ought to be able to describe the first four seal judgments before we read even read about them.

This is objective, deductive study.

When we understand that the word wrath means emotions that are so provoked to extremes that terrible vengeance is the just result. we ought to begin with...

1) A full analysis of the provocations of God as we are moving into the days of Noah that causes God to abandon the nations to their desires allowing the transgressors come to the full.

2) How God's anger and warnings turn to outright fury that shakes the earth and burns right down to hell. (Yeah, God is that mad!)

3) God then establishes the four terrible arrows of His wrath as the go-to model and He repeats this in the OT as an extinction level event, except in the OT it is regional whereas in the Scroll judgments it is global.

Now, if we are more concerned with understanding the feelings of God from passive to being pleased to having pleasure in us to outright delight, and then on the opposite scale being displeased so correction is given ,to anger when warnings are given, to outright fury when wrath is justified, then we can begin to put this in the context of the provocations we see in the world today explained in Ps.2.

The 4 horsemen are far from a new idea of God. To again quote the rabbi, it is stolen from the OT. We are supposed to recognize it right away but as children of God we are supposed to understand the level of emotion that God is experiencing when the Father hands the scroll to Jesus. This is as far from a ceremonial event without passion as it gets. God has had enough striving with man. The nations have made it clear they will not have God rule over them. God has set His King on His holy hill and His fury is about to shake the earth and burn right down to hell.

Jesus said if you don't believe Me for My Words. believe Me for My deeds. I would put it today like this... if you can't understand God's feelings, at least understand the degree of the provocations that results in the need for wrath when the scroll is handed to Jesus. This is why i ask, what are the feeling of God when the Father hands the scroll of judgment to Jesus?

In a future post I shall go through the OT so we can put this to an objective test and see how God is not doing anything new when the four horsemen are sent out. The wrath of God begins with the handing of the scroll to Jesus. When we understand God's immutability and the model of his wrath in the OT, then there can be no dispute. We are not destined to be on the earth before the first seal is opened for we are already in heaven to be adopted and for our redemption to be completed.

God's wrath begins with the opening of the seals but we must be able to prove it conclusively.

 

[mattfivefour]

Well, as you have time, I look forward to your continuation of your reasoning, brother. You make interesting points.

 

[PaidInFull]

First of all....knock my socks off!! I thought I was misreading who was posting here for a second.

How wonderful, delightful and an answer to prayer to see you again PaidInFull!! I'm so glad you are around and doing ok, I was hoping you were! All of the church body is a blessing to one another as our precious brothers and sisters in Christ are, whether in person or online,....and sad when one in the body is not around (just communicating my joy and understanding that God may at times lead us in other directions).

This is a great thread and I love the discussion, great link Andy, I'll need to print that one out.




Yes, you sure are! Ok, I'll bite and throw some stuff out there. That's what I love about Godly discourse.




Ok, I'm wanting to make sure I understand what you are saying here....it's sounding like you are saying that Israel is going to be provoked to jealousy by a nation (?) that the UN says is not a nation. I know that Israel is constantly being challenged on that part but are you speaking of the Church here?



Amen!!




Can you expound on this a little further...or point me to where you've possibly already done so?




Revelation 4: John is taken up and sees God sitting on a throne...in heaven. And then he sees 24 thrones surrounding him with 24 elders, clothed in white and gold crowns on their heads, reference to the seven fold spirit indicates the Spirit filled Church to me, or believers in Jesus. God is worshipped by all around Him.


Revelation 5:

John becomes greatly distressed because there is no man in heaven or earth to be found who's worthy to open up the seals of the scroll. As I understand those seals and the scroll is God's answer/judgment of the wicked on earth....people and the world system under satan's control. The world system has been allowed to run it's course and now it, along with those who willingly follow and it's leader, satan will be fully and finally judged and then God the Son and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit will establish God's Eternal Kingdom.....forever. AMEN!!

However the only one found worthy to open this scroll is the lamb of God, Jesus Christ because He is God and because He humbled Himself (being born in the flesh) unto death in loving sacrifice for His beloved Bride. Scripture tells us that we are in Christ, related to Christ via faith in Him and we are His body. Jesus has suffered during His physical ministry and in a sense has continued to suffer through His body, the Church on earth (in Acts He asks Paul why he's persecuting Jesus).

As I've read this passage recently what seems to be emerging in my mind is that God is now ready to judge the world system, it's committed people and satan for the abuse of Jesus Christ, His Bride and rebellion against God. God says that He will avenge.....it seems that this is what's about to happen in Rev. 5






As I think about all that I've written in my own observations, I believe the motivating factor is love? Love for Jesus and His body, the Church of whom been so severely abused. The ones that the Father deeply loves have been hurt. Just as Israel is the apple of His eye, so too is Jesus and His body greatly beloved to God the Father, Who tenderly loves Jesus and His body the Church. Just as a mom will move heaven and earth to protect and sometimes even avenge her child, well, I imagine this can be a picture of God's motivation in regards to the Great Tribulation, judgement, wrath and vengeance about to come upon the earth.

This reminds me of one of David's Psalms, 18.....here's a section:


The ropes of death entangled me;
floods of destruction swept over me.
The grave[a] wrapped its ropes around me;
death laid a trap in my path.
But in my distress I cried out to the Lord;
yes, I prayed to my God for help.
He heard me from his sanctuary;
my cry to him reached his ears.

Then the earth quaked and trembled.
The foundations of the mountains shook;
they quaked because of his anger.
Smoke poured from his nostrils;
fierce flames leaped from his mouth.
Glowing coals blazed forth from him.
He opened the heavens and came down;
dark storm clouds were beneath his feet.
Mounted on a mighty angelic being,[b] he flew,
soaring on the wings of the wind.
He shrouded himself in darkness,
veiling his approach with dark rain clouds.
Thick clouds shielded the brightness around him
and rained down hail and burning coals.[c]
The Lord thundered from heaven;
the voice of the Most High resounded
amid the hail and burning coals.
He shot his arrows and scattered his enemies;
great bolts of lightning flashed, and they were confused.
Then at your command, O Lord,
at the blast of your breath,
the bottom of the sea could be seen,
and the foundations of the earth were laid bare.

He reached down from heaven and rescued me;
he drew me out of deep waters.
He rescued me from my powerful enemies,
from those who hated me and were too strong for me.
vs 4-17


And, that there's a final reckoning with those not in Christ in which they are judged and reap what their own actions have sowed.

Many thanks for the very warm welcome. It's good to see old (type)faces again lol.

You have lots of questions. First of all, yes Israel is to be provoked to jealousy by a nation that is not listed as a nation by the UN, for we are a holy nation of kings and priests unto God. That's a big Bible study, let me see if I can cull enough of it to make sense in a condensed reply...

...there is a promise that God will provoke them to jealousy through the church which, as I pointed out, is not an earthly nation, for we were the foolish pagans far from God and not seeking the real God, not even asking for Him. Jews are even angry with the church, for they are enemies of the gospel for our sake. It's all just as God foretold! On the day of Pentecost, thousands of Jews were saved, but later, few Jews believed...

16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? On the contrary:

“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

19But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,

“I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS WITH THOSE WHO ARE NOT A NATION, WITH A FOOLISH NATION I WILL ANGER YOU.”

20And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I REVEALED MYSELF TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

21But as for Israel, He says, “I HAVE SPREAD OUT MY HANDS ALL DAY LONG TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”Rom.10

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it!...

…7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8just as it is written:

“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,

DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” 9And David says,

“MAY THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. 10“MAY THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS CONTINUALLY.” Rom.11 NAS Capitals.

WHAT WILL SUDDENLY PROVOKE THE JEWS TO JEALOUSY SO ALL ISRAEL IS SAVED?

It is easy to understand the answer if you investigate the pre-trib viewpoint, for the Jews have been celebrating the 7 feasts of the Lord for 3400 years. They have all the evidence for the past fulfillment of the spring feasts by Jesus. We therefore await the future fulfillment of the fall feast of trumpets, which is full of pre-trib rapture symbolism, also known as the feast of the Great Shout or the feast that No Man Knows The Day Or Hour because it falls on the new moon and they didn't know which of two nights the first sliver of the new moon will appear.

God commanded them to act out the feasts as dress rehearsals for what is to come, and Paul confirms that they are shadows of what is to come with the fulfillment in Christ (Col.2:17)

In the feast of trumpets, we have 12 themes that shadow the rapture, including the opening of the gates of heaven, the great shout, the waive offering, the marriage of Messiah, the coronation of the King, and the last trump, etc., but also one theme that seems out of place in all this joy, the time of Jacob's trouble.

Paul revealed that the mystery of the marriage of the Messiah in this feast was not national Israel but the church, and if anything will provoke Israel to jealousy, it will be discovering the reality that they celebrated the coming marriage of the Messiah for 3400 years but missed it just as they missed their Messiah 2000 years ago, though He fulfilled the feast of Passover! In fact, Scripture foretells they will weep as for the loss of their own firstborn when they realize Yeshua was their Messiah that they rejected. (Zech.12:10)

Please read my answers to Adrian too as I answer some of your questions there.

Your example of Ps.18 is fantastic demonstrating the emotions of God preceding his wrath.

And you conclusion as to why God planned what He did for us is out of His love says it all.

Blessings.

 

[mattfivefour]

Many thanks for the very warm welcome. It's good to see old (type)faces again lol.

You have lots of questions. First of all, yes Israel is to be provoked to jealousy by a nation that is not listed as a nation by the UN, for we are a holy nation of kings and priests unto God. That's a big Bible study, let me see if I can cull enough of it to make sense in a condensed reply...

...there is a promise that God will provoke them to jealousy through the church which, as I pointed out, is not an earthly nation, for we were the foolish pagans far from God and not seeking the real God, not even asking for Him. Jews are even angry with the church, for they are enemies of the gospel for our sake. It's all just as God foretold! On the day of Pentecost, thousands of Jews were saved, but later, few Jews believed...

16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? On the contrary:

“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

19But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,

“I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS WITH THOSE WHO ARE NOT A NATION, WITH A FOOLISH NATION I WILL ANGER YOU.”

20And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I REVEALED MYSELF TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

21But as for Israel, He says, “I HAVE SPREAD OUT MY HANDS ALL DAY LONG TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”Rom.10

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it!...

…7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8just as it is written:

“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,

DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” 9And David says,

“MAY THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. 10“MAY THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS CONTINUALLY.” Rom.11 NAS Capitals.

WHAT WILL SUDDENLY PROVOKE THE JEWS TO JEALOUSY SO ALL ISRAEL IS SAVED?

It is easy to understand the answer if you investigate the pre-trib viewpoint, for the Jews have been celebrating the 7 feasts of the Lord for 3400 years. They have all the evidence for the past fulfillment of the spring feasts by Jesus. We therefore await the future fulfillment of the fall feast of trumpets, which is full of pre-trib rapture symbolism, also known as the feast of the Great Shout or the feast that No Man Knows The Day Or Hour because it falls on the new moon and they didn't know which of two nights the first sliver of the new moon will appear.

God commanded them to act out the feasts as dress rehearsals for what is to come, and Paul confirms that they are shadows of what is to come with the fulfillment in Christ (Col.2:17)

In the feast of trumpets, we have 12 themes that shadow the rapture, including the opening of the gates of heaven, the great shout, the waive offering, the marriage of Messiah, the coronation of the King, and the last trump, etc., but also one theme that seems out of place in all this joy, the time of Jacob's trouble.

Paul revealed that the mystery of the marriage of the Messiah in this feast was not national Israel but the church, and if anything will provoke Israel to jealousy, it will be discovering the reality that they celebrated the coming marriage of the Messiah for 3400 years but missed it just as they missed their Messiah 2000 years ago, though He fulfilled the feast of Passover! In fact, Scripture foretells they will weep as for the loss of their own firstborn when they realize Yeshua was their Messiah that they rejected. (Zech.12:10)

Please read my answers to Adrian too as I answer some of your questions there.

Your example of Ps.18 is fantastic demonstrating the emotions of God preceding his wrath.

And you conclusion as to why God planned what He did for us is out of His love says it all.

Blessings.

All of this I agree with entirely. It is solidly scriptural.

 

[Matthew6:33]

Paul revealed that the mystery of the marriage of the Messiah in this feast was not national Israel but the church, and if anything will provoke Israel to jealousy, it will be discovering the reality that they celebrated the coming marriage of the Messiah for 3400 years but missed it just as they missed their Messiah 2000 years ago, though He fulfilled the feast of Passover! In fact, Scripture foretells they will weep as for the loss of their own firstborn when they realize Yeshua was their Messiah that they rejected. (Zech.12:10)

I think Israel is jealous of the Church today. That is why they are an enemy of the Gospel. They don't like the Church saying Jesus is the Savior, the Lord, the (their) Messiah. After all, the Romans 10:19 verse is a reflection of Deuteronomy 32:21 which was written before the Church even existed. So I believe this is being fulfilled today. Also the Church is never defined as a nation like Israel is.

It was my understanding that Israel would weep and mourn after the AC betrayed the nation of Israel revealing he can't be their true Messiah. When he sets up the abomination of desolation in the holy place. The feast of lights (Channukah) is the yearly celebration that reminds them of what Antiochus IV Epiphanes did to them just a couple hundred years before Christ. When the AC does the same thing to them again, they will realize Jesus is the Messiah and this is when they will weep and mourn bitterly.

 

[PaidInFull]

I think Israel is jealous of the Church today. That is why they are an enemy of the Gospel. They don't like the Church saying Jesus is the Savior, the Lord, the (their) Messiah. After all, the Romans 10:19 verse is a reflection of Deuteronomy 32:21 which was written before the Church even existed. So I believe this is being fulfilled today. Also the Church is never defined as a nation like Israel is.

It was my understanding that Israel would weep and mourn after the AC betrayed the nation of Israel revealing he can't be their true Messiah. When he sets up the abomination of desolation in the holy place. The feast of lights (Channukah) is the yearly celebration that reminds them of what Antiochus IV Epiphanes did to them just a couple hundred years before Christ. When the AC does the same thing to them again, they will realize Jesus is the Messiah and this is when they will weep and mourn bitterly.

In the Talmud the rabbis teach that Jesus is boiling in excrement in hell. They changed His name to a curse word Yesu. If they were jealous of the church's relationship with God they would embrace the gospel, not be an enemy of it. They forbid the reading of Isa.53. They are attempting to make the preaching of the gospel illegal in the Knesset. After 7 years training the rabbis don't even know the word Yeshua is all over the OT for their teachers only use selected Scriptures. They forbid the reading of the Book of Daniel saying it is too holy and a sin to read it. This is because Daniel states that after the Anointed One is cut off the temple will be destroyed.

If you go into an orthodox city and preach the gospel you are going to be threatened with murder - not out of jealousy but from the same hatred that crucified Yeshua. They still reject Him with the same hatred. This isn't jealousy.

As for the church being a well defined nation in Scripture, that is beyond question. God, who is the One who gives names to all nations, makes this declaration over the church which is made up of all nations including the remnant of Jews who believe now while the veil is still over them...

9But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. 1Pet.2 NAS capitals.

Hence we understand who exactly God is referencing here...

“I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS WITH THOSE WHO ARE NOT A NATION, WITH A FOOLISH NATION I WILL ANGER YOU.”

20And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I REVEALED MYSELF TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

21But as for Israel, He says, “I HAVE SPREAD OUT MY HANDS ALL DAY LONG TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”Rom.10

Israel does not weep in disappointment that the Antichrist is not the Messiah! They weep because the veil is lifted, grace is poured out and they realize they had rejected their Messiah whom they crucified...

10“And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of pleading, so that they will look at Me whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him, like one mourning for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.11On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves;13the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves;14all the families that are left, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.Zech.12

 

[Andy C]

Adrain, are you getting warm? Yes my dear brother, of course, but you are illegal... "I always thought the point of the pretrib rapture was to bring the bride to the Fathers house, ending the Church age of grace, beginning the time of Jacob's trouble."

You are too far ahead in God's program. You are at the end, and all that's left is the feast whereas I want to deal with the beginning phase. The rapture is just the airlift to get us to court for we are going to be dealing with matters of the law. God set everything up in Genesis before the fall for the law to draw out the plan of salvation and reveal the incredible nature of God for us to truly love and fear Him. I shall be dealing with law, law, law in future posts.

As you know, redemption is in two parts: we are in a state of hope for the completion of all Christian doctrines in heaven and hope that is already fulfilled is not hope. The first problem for the betrothed bride is that we are not of God's kin, and that is the very first thing that God plans on changing.

Just as it would have been illegal for Jesus to redeem us as the Son of God in heaven, He had to become our kin... He had to put on human flesh to become one of us (our kin) so that He could fulfill the Kinsman Redeem Laws. Likewise we have to put on our new sinless heavenly bodies to become His kin, but how exactly do we become the kin of God? Being born again is only the first part because we still have this body of flesh, the Old Man who is anything but the kin of God and is the basis of the devil's legal disput in heaven.

The problem was sin separated us from God's plan for the glorious high calling of man, so the Father sent His Redeemer to destroy sin so that the Redeemer could bring us back to God for ADOPTION. This is where the post-trib crashes. The bride needs to be of the family of God, God's kin, and that first of all demands our new bodies just like Jesus... and then our adoption ceremony in heaven.

Let's check that. Why did God send Jesus to redeem us?

Galatians 4:4–5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Redemption to be adopted was always the plan...

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Here and now, while we wait for the upward call of God in Christ Jesus, we declare we are the sons of God while we are actually heirs-of-God-in-waiting, but we should be crying out for the completion of our adoption in heaven...

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

2 Corinthians 5:2-4
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.

If we are not adopted, not figuratively, not spiritually by faith, but in actuality and ceremonially and legally in heaven, then we are spiritual orphans. But we have Jesus' promise...

John 14:18
“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” NAS/NJKV

as orphans;
ὀρφανούς (orphanous)
Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's 3737: Bereaved, an orphan, fatherless, desolate. Of uncertain affinity; bereaved, i.e. Parentless.

If there is no adoption, then we are not the legal qualified heirs of God and that means we cannot receive our inheritance and Jesus can't receive His for we are bound together as joint-heirs.

The Holy Spirit in us is the guarantee of the Father to keep His promise...

Ephesians 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now let's put the purpose of redemption in the context of being an heir-in-waiting for the adoption so we receive our joint inheritance...

1Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, although he is owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3So we too, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elementary principles of the world. 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons and daughters. 6Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. Gal.4

Just as God shows in the OT that the perfect, ideal order is that Israel does not marry outside of the nation's blood covenant with God, so also before the marriage we become the blood covenant kin of God by the ceremony of adoption as a matter of law. Don't misunderstand me here. Adoption is not all about the bride qualifying to be the kin of God for marriage to His Son. Adoption has enormous legal ramifications and power to utterly destroy the devil's 2,000 year legal standing before God to accuse us and so I need to deal with that for its own merits.

It is because the church does not understand what adoption is, and why it is the primary purpose and goal of the Father in sending His Son to the terrible cross to redeem us, that when I ask believers why God sent His Son to redeem us and bring us to heaven, I'd be lucky if 1 in 100 mention adoption! Out of that 1%, few can teach on adoption.

But adoption is not the first thing that happens after the rapture, but again I shall cover that in detail another post. The first thing is that Jesus takes the church to the assembly of the firstborn in heaven, introduces Dad to us, sings His praises, then introduces us to Daddy God and then the adoption ceremony begins.

I want to emphasis this because it is missed by almost all of the church. Adoption is a huge deal. It utterly destroys the legal standing of the devil so we need to understand what adoption is all about (later). It is adoption that ends this legal debate in heaven that began in Genesis and only intensified after the cross of Christ. It destroys the devil's accusations and puts a stop to his ability to deny the efficacy of the cross and blood of Jesus before God by accusing the church of sin. It is the reason war in heaven suddenly breaks out. Michael doesn't just randomly start a war because he has had enough and nor does God.

I will be digging into this and all the many legal ramifications surrounding the rapture that magnify the wisdom, the genius of God to outsmart Satan, and the riches of His grace. There is an amazing reason why after 2000 yrs God suddenly kicks the devil out of heaven and ends his accusations and we have to get to heaven for it to happen.

How thankful I am that I became a child of God at the moment of salvation, and the Holy Spirit immediately took up residence inside of me, thus sealing me forever as His Child

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Galatians 4
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.