Spartan Sprinter
Well-known
I'll temporarily derail the thread by saying poor Ezekiel, having to bake his food over cow manure to demonstrate a point to the Israelites
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Why does the Bible say Amnon loved Tamar?
- Thread starter Amethyst
- Start date
SO much better than what God originally asked him to do don't you think? Ezekiel crapped out on baking his dinner over human manure.
Spartan Sprinter
Well-known
It's funny , i'm like hows he going to lie on his sides for so long, and God kept giving answers. What about going to the toilet, got the answer again, ok waht about food, ok answer again.SO much better than what God originally asked him to do don't you think? Ezekiel crapped out on baking his dinner over human manure.
Fair enough Lord no more question
Nooo Margery is not one to suffer fools
What do you mean? She gets along with me okay!
Well, it's a little after 1:00 a.m. we're home, everything's taken care of, Andrea's had her shower and has gone to bed, I've had my shower and now I have time to answer.
This thread was occasioned by Amethyst's statement:
Therefore, in order to eliminate this confusion, what we are faced with is an attempt to understand the Hebrew word love as used in second Samuel 13:1. Thus a word study would seem to be in order. But a word study in Hebrew is a lot more difficult and a lot less precise than a word study in Greek. This is due to the differences in the nature of the two languages. Biblical Greek is a very logical language founded on intellect and precision of thought; hence it is as precise as a language can be. (No doubt the reason that God ensure Greek was the common language of the world before sending Messiah and revealing both the New Covenant and the new life it produces.) Biblical Hebrew is an emotional language, founded on experiences of life and the range of human emotion; hence it is comparatively imprecise.
Context is very important to both languages; but it is crucial to properly understanding biblical Hebrew because words in ancient Hebrew are far less precise in meaning than are Greek words; and the grammar is far less precise in its structure. This is the reason that you cannot do a word study in Hebrew in exactly the same way as you can in Greek.
Marge is quite correct in her post above when she speaks of the four main Hebrew words for love (although there are actually at least five other tangential words for love.) And she is, of course, correct that the word for love in 2 Samuel 13:1 is aheb (or ahab, depending on the vowel points.) It is a word that refers to a passionate attraction. And, as Margery correctly says, it is not so much a feeling but an action.
But while knowing that the word is aheb might rule out the idea of Amnon's "love" being a romantic or compassionate or covenantal love, it does not help us at all understand what is actually meant in our verse, because the word aheb can be used to describe everything from a man's lust for a woman to the loving attachment between Jonathan and David to God's love for us. So a word study based on the meaning of the word will not help us. We need to go to the context.
The broadest context is the fact that we are speaking of a king's son. Bible accounts reveal that the sons of kings were usually coddled by their mothers (often being seen as a means for the mother to gain political power in the kingdom). And these same sons were often ignored by their fathers, meaning that they had neither direction nor discipline. They were spoiled rich kids who could pretty much do as they liked.
The immediate context tells us that this "love" that Amnon had for Tamar was clearly sexual; obsessive, consuming to the point of sickness; and forbidden, for Tamar was his half-sister.
Finally, a last piece of context useful to our understanding can be found in what happens after Amnon has his way with his sister. 2 Samuel 13:15 records that he then "hated her exceedingly, so that the hatred with which he hated her was greater than the love with which he had loved her." And as the topper to it all, he had his servant throw her out like a piece of garbage. Given all of this context, we can understand that the Bible is telling us that the emotion Amnon had for his sister was not love, but lust. Therefore, @Amethyst, you need no longer be confused. Like many self-involved young men throughout history, Amnon simply lusted after a beautiful young woman, viewing it as love in his own eyes. And, unfortunately for innocent young Tamar, he had easy access to her through their family relationship.
And so we have yet another tragedy in the biblical account; but this one was a tragedy that would ultimately result in the destruction of the united kingdom of Israel, splitting it into two warring confederacies: the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah.
One spoiled young man's rape resulted in the ruination of God's physical kingdom on earth. And while our own selfishness may not result in such a dramatic and destructive impact on a world scale, our own selfishness can ruin our immediate world, destroying families: husbands wives, wives husbands, parents children, children parents, siblings siblings. On a broader scale, self-focused attitudes can and do destroy churches and communities of believers. This is why the Bible speaks so frequently and powerfully about humility. Considering others to be better than ourselves (Philippians 2:3), being willing to lose out unfairly (1 Corinthians 6:7), surrendering our own rights and order not to hinder the gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 9:12), and loving our enemies, blessing them that curse us, doing good to them that hate us, and praying for them which despitefully use us and persecute us (Matthew 5:44) are the characteristics God wants us to have. These are the characteristics of Jesus Christ into whose image we are being formed. But all too sadly, too many of us as Christians fall far short in this. I see it on Christian forums all the time. I expect it on secular forums, but hate to see it on Christian ones: people being provoked by something that somebody else writes. They are offended. Or they are hurt. Or their sense of self is pierced. And the love a brother or sister should be demonstrating for another brother or sister seems to vanish.
Well, I hear someone say, what does being hurt have to do with the love? Everything. Look back at those Bible verses in the previous paragraph. Or, best of all, look at God's description of true love found in 1 Corinthians 13. Oh but Pastor, I hear someone else say, 1st Corinthians 13 is speaking of love between a man and a woman. No, it is not. It may be quoted regularly at weddings (at least verses four through seven are), but it's actually speaking of love between Christians. And it tells us that real love is not rude, not easily angered, and keeps no account of wrongs, but bears all things and endures all things. If more Christians would take this to heart, fewer churches would split, more assemblies would grow, and there would be a lot less turmoil on Christian websites.
I pray that every member here has matured in Christ sufficiently to be able to surrender their rights with nothing expected in return, humbling themself before God, allowing themselves to suffer wrong without striking back or striving to justify themselves. And if not, I pray they're willing to ask God to make the necessary changes in them. I pray that for myself.
Anyway, back to the original topic: I hope this post helps shed a little light on the opening verse or two of Samuel 13.
This thread was occasioned by Amethyst's statement:
"I have never understood why scripture says that Amnon loved Tamar, when clearly, he did not. Not by 1 Corinthians 13 definition anyway."
Therefore, in order to eliminate this confusion, what we are faced with is an attempt to understand the Hebrew word love as used in second Samuel 13:1. Thus a word study would seem to be in order. But a word study in Hebrew is a lot more difficult and a lot less precise than a word study in Greek. This is due to the differences in the nature of the two languages. Biblical Greek is a very logical language founded on intellect and precision of thought; hence it is as precise as a language can be. (No doubt the reason that God ensure Greek was the common language of the world before sending Messiah and revealing both the New Covenant and the new life it produces.) Biblical Hebrew is an emotional language, founded on experiences of life and the range of human emotion; hence it is comparatively imprecise.
Context is very important to both languages; but it is crucial to properly understanding biblical Hebrew because words in ancient Hebrew are far less precise in meaning than are Greek words; and the grammar is far less precise in its structure. This is the reason that you cannot do a word study in Hebrew in exactly the same way as you can in Greek.
Marge is quite correct in her post above when she speaks of the four main Hebrew words for love (although there are actually at least five other tangential words for love.) And she is, of course, correct that the word for love in 2 Samuel 13:1 is aheb (or ahab, depending on the vowel points.) It is a word that refers to a passionate attraction. And, as Margery correctly says, it is not so much a feeling but an action.
But while knowing that the word is aheb might rule out the idea of Amnon's "love" being a romantic or compassionate or covenantal love, it does not help us at all understand what is actually meant in our verse, because the word aheb can be used to describe everything from a man's lust for a woman to the loving attachment between Jonathan and David to God's love for us. So a word study based on the meaning of the word will not help us. We need to go to the context.
The broadest context is the fact that we are speaking of a king's son. Bible accounts reveal that the sons of kings were usually coddled by their mothers (often being seen as a means for the mother to gain political power in the kingdom). And these same sons were often ignored by their fathers, meaning that they had neither direction nor discipline. They were spoiled rich kids who could pretty much do as they liked.
The immediate context tells us that this "love" that Amnon had for Tamar was clearly sexual; obsessive, consuming to the point of sickness; and forbidden, for Tamar was his half-sister.
Finally, a last piece of context useful to our understanding can be found in what happens after Amnon has his way with his sister. 2 Samuel 13:15 records that he then "hated her exceedingly, so that the hatred with which he hated her was greater than the love with which he had loved her." And as the topper to it all, he had his servant throw her out like a piece of garbage. Given all of this context, we can understand that the Bible is telling us that the emotion Amnon had for his sister was not love, but lust. Therefore, @Amethyst, you need no longer be confused. Like many self-involved young men throughout history, Amnon simply lusted after a beautiful young woman, viewing it as love in his own eyes. And, unfortunately for innocent young Tamar, he had easy access to her through their family relationship.
And so we have yet another tragedy in the biblical account; but this one was a tragedy that would ultimately result in the destruction of the united kingdom of Israel, splitting it into two warring confederacies: the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah.
One spoiled young man's rape resulted in the ruination of God's physical kingdom on earth. And while our own selfishness may not result in such a dramatic and destructive impact on a world scale, our own selfishness can ruin our immediate world, destroying families: husbands wives, wives husbands, parents children, children parents, siblings siblings. On a broader scale, self-focused attitudes can and do destroy churches and communities of believers. This is why the Bible speaks so frequently and powerfully about humility. Considering others to be better than ourselves (Philippians 2:3), being willing to lose out unfairly (1 Corinthians 6:7), surrendering our own rights and order not to hinder the gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 9:12), and loving our enemies, blessing them that curse us, doing good to them that hate us, and praying for them which despitefully use us and persecute us (Matthew 5:44) are the characteristics God wants us to have. These are the characteristics of Jesus Christ into whose image we are being formed. But all too sadly, too many of us as Christians fall far short in this. I see it on Christian forums all the time. I expect it on secular forums, but hate to see it on Christian ones: people being provoked by something that somebody else writes. They are offended. Or they are hurt. Or their sense of self is pierced. And the love a brother or sister should be demonstrating for another brother or sister seems to vanish.
Well, I hear someone say, what does being hurt have to do with the love? Everything. Look back at those Bible verses in the previous paragraph. Or, best of all, look at God's description of true love found in 1 Corinthians 13. Oh but Pastor, I hear someone else say, 1st Corinthians 13 is speaking of love between a man and a woman. No, it is not. It may be quoted regularly at weddings (at least verses four through seven are), but it's actually speaking of love between Christians. And it tells us that real love is not rude, not easily angered, and keeps no account of wrongs, but bears all things and endures all things. If more Christians would take this to heart, fewer churches would split, more assemblies would grow, and there would be a lot less turmoil on Christian websites.
I pray that every member here has matured in Christ sufficiently to be able to surrender their rights with nothing expected in return, humbling themself before God, allowing themselves to suffer wrong without striking back or striving to justify themselves. And if not, I pray they're willing to ask God to make the necessary changes in them. I pray that for myself.
Anyway, back to the original topic: I hope this post helps shed a little light on the opening verse or two of Samuel 13.
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