Update on pastor who thinks Israel can lose the land again

[Amethyst]

Question about Ezekiel 36:25

The KJV and NASB write it like this:

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

The ESV and NIV among others leave out the word "Then" in beginning of verse 25.

Andy Woods was talking about the gathering of unbelief transitioning to being in belief and he used the word "Then" to indicate the sprinkling or "cleanness" would come at a later time. As a support for the belief that they would be gathered first in unbelief.

However does it make a difference that it is left out of the other translation? Or is it a non-issue.

 

[Kaatje]

Whether the word is used or not, if you read the whole chapter, it is a sequense.

Same like in Ez. 37,. First hope gone, then bones knit together, then skin, then spirit.

Hope that helps?

 

[mattfivefour]

However does it make a difference that it is left out of the other translation? Or is it a non-issue

I think it's a non-issue. God is simply saying He will gather them and cleanse them. From the context this cleansing does not precede the gathering, so it clearly must either be concurrent with, or subsequent to, the gathering. Based on the way God works in individuals and nations, I believe it is most likely a process that is worked out subsequent to the gathering ... a view possibly supported by the fact that verse 25 is introduced by a conjunction (waw) often translated "and" but with the sense of "furthermore” ... a fact that is likely why some solid translations use the word ”then" here to translate it.

 

[Margery]

@Amethyst I've been puzzling over this trying desperately to remember the passage I was thinking of at that time. I don't think I can add anything helpful. I remember thinking that one of the passages Jan51 quoted seemed like they were in the area, but when I read them over, they didn't fit so I'm at a loss. You've got very good answers in here if not anything definitive, and if I ever manage to remember the fragment of the verse that was floating around in my head, I will grab it, look it up properly and post it in here.

 

[Margery]

@Amethyst I was listening to 2 preachers today. Maybe you already follow them. Neither one would fully answer your question though, so only dive in if you have time and they interest you.

Ken Johnson was talking about Amos 9 and tying in some of the idiomatic expressions to some of the Jewish Targums (commentaries) and the Dead Sea Scrolls, which give good insight into Jewish idioms that are hard to understand today and there was a little bit in there where Ken was explaining how to look at prophecies whether they were from the first diaspora and partial return (Babylon) or after 1948. It wouldn't be clear enough to answer your question definitively but I thought it was interesting and might be helpful as you study this. He had a fun little rabbit trail on Esau and Jacob. As well as why the Pharisees were dead wrong to tell Jesus to get his disciples to wash their hands before eating the grain. Lots of rabbit trails.

Then Britt Gillette mentioned the same subject in his talk today on 7 signs of the End Times we see right now. He brought up a bit in Deuteronomy by Moses - and added a passage in Isaiah that was quite promising about the second return of Israel in 48.

Both of them are quite conservative, dispensational pre trib, pre Mill and nothing wild and wooly.

Ken gets into the earliest of the Church Fathers, the writings of the Essenes in the Dead Sea Scrolls and some non canonical books such as Jasher, Gad, Enoch and others used by the Jews in the first century before Christ or quoted extensively by the earliest Church Fathers. He NEVER uses them to add to scripture or prophecy (some people DO that and it gives decent historical church research a bad name). I listen to him for good insights into why people said stuff that is difficult to understand-- it's often an idiom that a little historical research clears up. And that helps clear up some difficult prophecy passages. He's also pretty good on sorting out when something was fulfilled in the past either fully or only partially.

Britt is focused on Bible Prophecy and looking at potential fulfillments in the near future-- often concentrating on world economic indicators - I find that rather out of my league but sometimes it fits within my areas of interest with Ezek 38 shaping up etc. He gets to the point faster and stays on point.

 

[Amethyst]

@Amethyst I was listening to 2 preachers today. Maybe you already follow them. Neither one would fully answer your question though, so only dive in if you have time and they interest you.

Ken Johnson was talking about Amos 9 and tying in some of the idiomatic expressions to some of the Jewish Targums (commentaries) and the Dead Sea Scrolls, which give good insight into Jewish idioms that are hard to understand today and there was a little bit in there where Ken was explaining how to look at prophecies whether they were from the first diaspora and partial return (Babylon) or after 1948. It wouldn't be clear enough to answer your question definitively but I thought it was interesting and might be helpful as you study this. He had a fun little rabbit trail on Esau and Jacob. As well as why the Pharisees were dead wrong to tell Jesus to get his disciples to wash their hands before eating the grain. Lots of rabbit trails.

Then Britt Gillette mentioned the same subject in his talk today on 7 signs of the End Times we see right now. He brought up a bit in Deuteronomy by Moses - and added a passage in Isaiah that was quite promising about the second return of Israel in 48.

Both of them are quite conservative, dispensational pre trib, pre Mill and nothing wild and wooly.

Ken gets into the earliest of the Church Fathers, the writings of the Essenes in the Dead Sea Scrolls and some non canonical books such as Jasher, Gad, Enoch and others used by the Jews in the first century before Christ or quoted extensively by the earliest Church Fathers. He NEVER uses them to add to scripture or prophecy (some people DO that and it gives decent historical church research a bad name). I listen to him for good insights into why people said stuff that is difficult to understand-- it's often an idiom that a little historical research clears up. And that helps clear up some difficult prophecy passages. He's also pretty good on sorting out when something was fulfilled in the past either fully or only partially.

Britt is focused on Bible Prophecy and looking at potential fulfillments in the near future-- often concentrating on world economic indicators - I find that rather out of my league but sometimes it fits within my areas of interest with Ezek 38 shaping up etc. He gets to the point faster and stays on point.

Thanks! Saving for later.

 

[mattfivefour]

Any update on your pastor in this regard, sister?

 

[mattfivefour]

@Amethyst, has anything progressed with this matter in the past year? (If you have covered this in another thread I apologize.)

 

[Amethyst]

@Amethyst, has anything progressed with this matter in the past year? (If you have covered this in another thread I apologize.)

I haven't been there in a few months (for a different reason) so I don't know if any of his beliefs have changed. Maybe I should have brought it up with him again but I never did.
I felt like I would get aggravated to be honest.

 

[Amethyst]

@mattfivefour out of curiosity what do you think about the relation between this topic and Andiamo's post #4 ?

 

[mattfivefour]

Well, that opens up a range of possibilities for discussion. Let me think about it for a bit, alright? I have to head off and do some things now but I'll try and get back to you later today.

 

[BABBAB58]

Question about Ezekiel 36:25

The KJV and NASB write it like this:

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

The ESV and NIV among others leave out the word "Then" in beginning of verse 25.

Andy Woods was talking about the gathering of unbelief transitioning to being in belief and he used the word "Then" to indicate the sprinkling or "cleanness" would come at a later time. As a support for the belief that they would be gathered first in unbelief.

However does it make a difference that it is left out of the other translation? Or is it a non-issue.

From Young's Litteral Translation: 25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.
**The Jewish Nation is blinded (mostly - some are saved) for the sake of the Gentiles. When God removes the vail and they see Jesus as their Messiah, their stony, stubborn hearts will become tender.