Heheheh, I aim to please. Nasty taste, check! That's why I often say to take me with a grain of salt. It helps with the nasty taste
Jokes aside, I like to look at the worst case scenario because over the years it's usually the one that happens. When I'm wrong I am pleasantly surprised. So I go thru life being pleasantly surprised, or raise my eyebrows and point out how NOT surprised I am.
Yes and No both. I like to think in terms of probability rather than black and white, yes or no.
So I assign a higher probability that IF (big IF there) IF the rapture were to occur in the next few months then 10 kings will likely be technocrats- owners of large influential multinational corporations. The Bible does specify, kings without a kingdom, an intriguing clue.
A lesser probability that they are geographic zones such as the one proposed by the Club of Rome in the 50s. Side note one of the early church fathers was convinced that 3 of the 10 kings were Libya, Egypt and one other I can't remember. So the really early church fathers thought of them as national kings/leaders.
The greatest probability in my thinking is that it's a combo. Divvy up the world into economic and political spheres (as I've theorized in my answers above and elsewhere) for ease of administration but have the power concentrated in these large multinational corporation owners. I think it's in this thread I remind everyone that Bill Gates of Microsoft has been buying up all the farmland. Control the food, control the people. Especially if you plan to use war, famine and pestilence (that sounds like Revelation) to depopulate the earth to "acceptable" levels. These people like Gates and others like him who believe in reducing the population to a fraction always make it sound so nice, merciful and sanitary, but then they tip their hands by being involved in Covid or bird flu or Big Agriculture that makes birds susceptible to bird flu from the close quarters they are jammed into.
Israel doesn't get peace and safety till just before Ezek 38. Due to words in the text I think that is after the Rapture (I've gone into it on a thread about Ezek 38 here somewhere). Also in the text is a hint that she is at home on the mountains of Israel having endured some kind of recent war. BTW the mountains of Israel are the area called Judea and Samaria which the world calls "The West Bank". In other words, something about that war she just got back from gained her the right to live on her own mountains again, without bars and gates- no walled in kibbutzim in the presence of enemies. She is at ease.
America doesn't buy her that peace and safety, at least not directly. I think if we look at the current situation, USA is threatening Iran, and giving Israel the go ahead to deal with Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.
It's a process. IF (big if again) this is the combination of Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49, Ezek 32 -last half, and Psalm 83, this is what Bill Salus has written about as being Israel dealing with her near neighbours- the ring of enemies most of whom are not mentioned in Ezek 38. I make bad jokes all the time about Ezek 32 coming before Ezek 38 but it's true. If that is being fulfilled now or in the future, it sets Israel up for that precondition mentioned in Ezek 38.
I think the American economy will bump along like the world economy until such time as the LORD allows it to implode hard enough to bring on the beast system. Till that time we will continue to see market corrections and responses to world events. I'd say read Patrick Woods and JB Hixson to understand why the technocrats are here already, been in position since the Bretton Woods agreement, and before actually, gaining power on BOTH sides of the aisle. We often refer to the "deep state" without understanding that IS the technocracy. In short they are here, and have been for some time.
All Technocracy is, is appointed leaders (like Elon Musk) who are experts (like Fauci) and are given a sphere of influence BY the elected leaders of western democracy. They are the beaurocrats who run the machine within the CIA or the FBI to ensure certain political outcomes. In countries like Russia, China and Cuba, they already do that with varying levels of success because the expert you turn to, and let loose to reshape policy might be smart or ethical or they might be dumb or crooked.
It gets worse by the time the Anti Christ comes on the scene- they have more tools to manipulate things- quantum computing being one. It sounds like a conspiracy theory but it's really not. It's just how Rome fell from within, only this time we have computers and the internet.
Not just you, you aren't crazy, that wrap up is outlined in Daniel, Revelation and elsewhere. It's just that when it gets here, the ground work will have already been happening. We aren't here to see the end result but if we were it would be head slap moments and we'd say "SO THAT'S how that fit with Covid, and lock downs, so THAT's how the economic engine across the planet had a hiccup over tariffs and America withdrew from world influence just before the Rapture. So that whole NATO thing that blew up between the USA and EU forced the EU into becoming the new and improved Roman Empire that Daniel wrote about.
Well if the Lord tarries, you might well be right on this! I'm always looking at the Rapture in the near future so I tend to interpret things based on how it would shake out if it happened tomorrow. Globalism is always hiding in plain sight. Napoleon, Hitler etc were all globalists- they just wanted to be the boss of the globe.
Will we see real trade freedom? Is that possible? Well maybe. If the Rapture was a long way away.
The problem with that is that it doesnt' fit the global control we see prophesied. Real free trade freedom would have all the markets in the world trading and becoming prosperous together. People would see the value in NOT being artificially tied to each other but they'd also not need tariffs. Instead we have a system that works because it's global, and under a small group (the 10 kings) and the AC rises out of the midst.
So at some point before or after the Rapture there is a global crisis big enough that the USA and other nations HAVE to work together on a global system that the AC will use with his mark.
The crisis has to happen for that global need for one world currency and govt.
I don't see America gaining power and influence. Right now, the day after Trump announced his April 2 tariffs around the globe I see a lot of turning away from the USA as a power. Since Trump took power he's been telling Europe they are on their own, that America isn't going to rescue them so we see Europe for the first time ever trying to restructure their economhy to PAY FOR THEIR OWN ARMY to protect against Russia.
That is something that fits the reforming of the ancient Roman empire. So the NATO squabble is forcing the EU to form their own army for defense from Russia, and the tariffs are forcing the world economies to stop leaning on the USA to be their market. AND we see the USA turning within it's borders to make what it consumes within it's borders. It's not the world policeman anymore, moving away from that role. Again, forcing the EU into their future role.
Then we saw the rise of the BRICS which is 10 nations that hate the USA or don't want to be under the Petrodollar- the US currency that is how the world buys and sells. The reason sanctions work for the USA is because everything is bought and sold with the US petrodollar- it just means US$ is backed by oil, not gold.
Russia and China started the BRICS with Brazil, India and South Africa partly because of US sanctions and the desire to trade outside the American eagle's eye on their deals. Iran (naturally) joined along with 4 others (all "stans" if I recall) with personal grudges against the US.
Before that we saw Obama give away control of the internet. Just leave it in the hands of the same global corporations like google to manage. That was puzzling for many, but it was another indicator that America was letting go power and control of the world. I think God allowed each President in his term to do things that would set things up for the Tribulation. That internet is how we access web cams, like the ones in Jerusalem that will allow the people of the whole planet to see the 2 Witnesses lying dead, then rising after 3 days.
So we see America isolating herself politically, economically, and militarily. Yesterday's tariffs for whatever reason didn't tariff Russia, Cuba, Iran, Yemen and some other enemies, but did tariff her allies quite sharply. Along with most of the rest of the planet, except her enemies.
The way this makes sense to me, is that God is removing all support for Israel from the rest of the planet. Israel and America stand almost alone (yes Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand have your back even if Trump did irritate us and we aren't about to let you suffer on your own- if something happens we are in your corner but for right now that support is weakened considerably)
This is because I think when the Rapture happens, Israel HAS to stand alone. In Ezek 38 the tattered remnants of the 5 Eyes (Brit, Aus, NZ, Can and USA) that are left after the Rapture only give a weak question to Russia in Ezek 38 (have you come for spoil). They are joined by Sheba and Dedan which look like the Abraham Accords. The rest of the planet doesn't want to get in Russia's way and or they hate Israel or they joined Russia because they hate Israel. (Turkey and Iran may have a score to settle if the Ezek 32 and Jer 49 stuff just happened)
You see the support for Israel IS the Trump voter base.
It's the evangelical Christians who still remember that GOD put Israel back in her land, that she is the apple of God's eye and that support is why America still stands with Israel. Even Biden and Obama didn't dare anger the Christians who love Israel enough to cast Israel loose to the Arab wolves.
Since 1948 Israel has known that the US has their back, sometimes better than other times (Kissinger, Obama and Biden were real low points there). But soon God will be dealing with Israel again when the Church is raptured up. Israel must stand alone, and lean on God to survive. She won't, she will make a covenant with the AC but God warns them not to.
As Jan Markell observes, the purpose of the Tribulation is the Salvation of the Jewish Nation.
AND as we often notice, the whole world revolves around that tiny nation over on the shores of the Med.
The Providence you see for America is tied to their support of Israel and their sending forth the gospel to the nations. When those 2 purposes are done (at the Rapture) it's lights out!
Bless you my dear brother you DON'T sound sulky in the least. You have a brain, you aren't afraid to use it, you question, we go back and forth, and we both learn and grow. It's the way it is supposed to work.
LOVE IN CHRIST AS ALWAYS
M
Hi Margery, thanks for your replies. I am not the greatest with how the quote option works in dividing up quotes. Some days I get it. But normally I just get one huge quote. So I just copied and pasted to respond under your points.
MARGERY -- Israel doesn't get peace and safety till just before Ezek 38. Due to words in the text I think that is after the Rapture (I've gone into it on a thread about Ezek 38 here somewhere). Also in the text is a hint that she is at home on the mountains of Israel having endured some kind of recent war.
Interesting. If you recall what words you notice in Ez 38 that place it just after the rapture, I'd be interested to see that. I would also be interested to see language you have found in Ez 38 of Israel having endured some kind of recent war. Those would be very interesting observations to consider in Ez 38.
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MARGERY --It's a process. IF (big if again) this is the combination of Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49, Ezek 32 -last half, and Psalm 83, this is what Bill Salus has written about as being Israel dealing with her near neighbours- the ring of enemies most of whom are not mentioned in Ezek 38. I make bad jokes all the time about Ezek 32 coming before Ezek 38 but it's true. If that is being fulfilled now or in the future, it sets Israel up for that precondition mentioned in Ezek 38.
I have used a similar joke of 38 coming after 37

Some think Ez 38 is after the 1,000 year reign because of Gog mentions there in Revelation. I try to keep an open mind about Bill Salus. But I don't believe his views on Psalm 83 as prophecy are sober exactly. He might have some things about Is 17 and Iran in better understanding, but because of his takes on Psalm 83, I tend not to place much scholarship trust in views that would take me I believe a very long time to see if I would consider Bill a solid resource.
But if we are using chronology of chapters, 37 is when Israel returns in 1948. Which would then make 32 before that time, no?
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MARGERY --Not just you, you aren't crazy, that wrap up is outlined in Daniel, Revelation and elsewhere. It's just that when it gets here, the ground work will have already been happening. We aren't here to see the end result but if we were it would be head slap moments and we'd say "SO THAT'S how that fit with Covid, and lock downs, so THAT's how the economic engine across the planet had a hiccup over tariffs and America withdrew from world influence just before the Rapture. So that whole NATO thing that blew up between the USA and EU forced the EU into becoming the new and improved Roman Empire that Daniel wrote about.
The wrap up though I mean is not how everything ends in the tribulation. I mean the wrap up of the age of grace (the church age) arriving at the tribulation though. Of course it is pretty wild to see Trump's stance against Europe. Pretty amazing. I tend to see that more in line with adversity to globalism. Thank you for sharing your views on tarriff effects potentially. I believe if America does collapse (which I don't), this tariff thing would be great opportunity for it, for sure. Again, though the way I understand tarifs is that to a correction of globalist enterprise upon America. It is a globalist strategy to weaken America by only having America tariffed in so many other countries and it not be reciprical. So although it could backfire and America become isolated and suffer and be a world super power and more, I tend to see it more simply like forcing free trade opportunity upon a world that has been spoiled because globalism wants to drain American sovereignty economically throughout the world.
I understand your excitement in seeing what may look like a way to line up EU according to the 70th week staging. But what seems to be an interesting dynamic that seems to often be overlooked by evangelicalism is things America does currently in contrast to globalism. For example, with JD Farag, there is no consideration of globalism being an issue. He would see the effects of it (Hagelian Dailectic--both party sides serving a globalist super party), but not see globalism as a real historic rubber meets the road reason for Hagelian Dialectic. John Macarthur would see America is done because of woke policy. Yet not seeing how globalism for decades had taken over our schools, entertainment, government etc. Most recently I am glad to hear An0maly on YouTube likes Gen McGreggors oberservations and is just barely noticing the shadow of globalism in the Ukraine/Russia war issue. So to me though Margery, for some reason it seems like the evangelical world and even the informed right alt media have very little notion toward how globalist regimes work. We see Davos. We see Black Rock. But beyond that it would not seem globalism is a thing. Whereas I would see it as just about as massive of underscoring as to why America is doing what it is doing now in correcting globalist chains placed upon America.
So this I think would actually make an excellent book or even perhaps a 3 to 5 volume set: The differing views of evangelical end times and the socio-political shifts concurring from globalism. Because it would have to be one of THE top anomlies occuring in our day that provides quite a bit of confusion, I believe, in how we might be looking at things, though. But yeah, if America is to weaken, distancing from EU and tariffing the world isolating herself would be great opportunity to test the theory of America becoming weak. Whereas I would be more on the side of it testing for its come back.
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MARGERY --The problem with that is that it doesnt' fit the global control we see prophesied. Real free trade freedom would have all the markets in the world trading and becoming prosperous together. People would see the value in NOT being artificially tied to each other but they'd also not need tariffs. Instead we have a system that works because it's global, and under a small group (the 10 kings) and the AC rises out of the midst.
It is always a pleasure to discuss things with you Margery, because you consider so many things and are very open with your views and perspectives while not flinching away from your convictions. Amen. I love this about you. But the way you have expressed here is kind of the thing all along I have been trying to pull into hopefully more robust dialogue. Which may or may not be a possibility in the future. Because if America does become less significant during tariff retaliation, then there would not be much of a leg I would have to stand on to continue to consider some of the themes I have, amen. But because of the story board globalism has been about in our contemporary world, I believe there are attributes about that socio-political condition that may not make matching up our era with how we understand things must more likely go in Revelation. A tendency of view that world function would necessarily have to creep its way into a theme that looks increasingly like the final nation-state configuration in the 70th week.
It is a staple of evengelicalism to dismiss certain potential because things cannot go this way or that way if the 70th week in close at hand. But I have been watching this evangelical condition do this sort of analysis for 7 years now. And so far (of course things could always change more in a moment so to a favorable evangelical leaning), there the moment most resounding today I notice in the effects of that is the evangelical world scratching its head in how America has to collapse. There are no potentials in evangelicalism where America becomes stronger. So my natural course of analysis is to look for what might be blind spots. My own included. Trying to be unbiased here. But one major blind spot that has been forming is how to understand that America will collapse or weaken on the world stage siginificantly. And yet, so far, its kind of been going quite the other direction. So we will have to see of course. But the point I am just wanting to make here is that there seems to be a blind spot. And because there is one (for good reason or for no good reason), one surely does noticeably exist.
It may be that there is reason for it, because we don't need to see it because a collapse will be soon anyway. But if that is not the contemporary trajectory, then what typically tends to happen is a continuing blind spot of still how America must weaken. So along these same lines, thinking there could be better global commerce would seem to go against where we need to end up sometime sooner rather than later at a place that looks more like leaning into the tribulation. Which would be neighbor to perhaps blind spots of America getting more power, not less. And be of similar Blindspot species. Again, it may be for good reason. Because America will collapse. And then it was not a blind spot at all...lol. But I just know that if America does not collapse it would seem to still be very much alive that a potential blindspot of that nature continue.
So I say all that to just say that I understand better economic flow worldwide does not seem to lead to what we see prophetically in Revelation to occur by that time. But to me though our views of how things should or might or have to look to line up with that could be somewhat amiss in perspective. For example, how I would see that there could be a better economical world flow soon and it still be in line with a 70th week horizon is that Israel would most likely get peace and safety because of America. At least that has been the 80 year history of America so far with Israel. So in that sense an empowered America enforcing better world economics would provide a peace and safety for Israel. And meanwhile whatever else lines up along the way be perhaps in the shadows of that condition. Because to me, this is just me here, the rise of the 10 nation confederacy and Babylon the Great all come to us during the flow of the first half of the tribulation. So technically, we might see very little of any of that this side of the 70th week. Whereas once the trib hits, things could move rather fast into place. I believe we tend not to consider this much because of the 11th horn factor. We're by the time the AC makes a deal with the many, he has to have come out of a confederacy recognizeable to be the 11th horn by the time the tribulation starts. But I would see two view points upon the AC in that sense. 1 view of him making the covenant with the many. And 2, the one who demands worship and the mark of the beast. Same person. But two different central thematic stories of that AC. So by the 11th horn, it could infer...
DANIEL 7:23-27
23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will [z]humble three kings. 25 And he will [aa]speak against the Most High and wear down the [ab]saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and [ac]they will be handed over to him for a [ad]time, [ae]times, and half a [af]time. 26 But the court will [ag]convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, [ah]annihilated and destroyed [ai]forever. 27 Then the [aj]sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the [ak]saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’
... looking at Daniel 7 that the onus placed upon the 11th seems to be connected in prophecy to:
a) take down three kings
b) speak against the most high
c) wear down the saints
d) alter times and laws
e) 3.5 years
f) when God takes the AC down
So a-f could all be pointing at the story that goes with the AC at the midpoint. He does not get his supernatural power and 3.5 year rule until the midpoint. And it seems that all the language of import that identifies the 11th horn is in relation to the AC empowerment at the midpoint. As we see in Rev 13, there are events that lead up to that like: 1) who can war with the beast, and 2) he wears the saints down. But those are attributes associated with the AC "proper" at the midpoint. Whereas the AC that makes a covenant with the many -- the event that kicks off the tribulation, does not have to be a noticeable 11th horn. Because that is just the beginnings of the AC role. Where he will be waring with others along the way to emerge as AC proper 11th horn noticed for his 3.5 year rule from the midpoint on. I believe there of course will be AC proper 11th horn-ish hints along the way of the first years of the tribulation. But I don't get the sense from Daniel 7 that the AC comes making a deal with many while a) taking down 3 kings, b) speaking against the most high, c) wearing the saints down, d) entering new times and laws. Because that seems to be epecientric to his 3.5 year rule from the midpoint.
So I know that way it could read in Daniel that we get the 11th horn and then we see a-f. So if the 11th horn is the one making the covenant with the many at the beginning of the tribulation, he would be understand as the 11th at that point. And in our more chronological way of thinking, that makes sense. But I believe this (as Daniel has some very unique literary devices in it going as it were) that the approach Daniel seems to take regarding the 11th horn is like a cluster effect. Like a list of things related to the 11th horn. Earlier in Daniel 7 it is known as "the little horn." Which means it starts out unnoticed seemingly. Or takes time to develope. So the way I see its potential is like this:
1) The trib starts with AC covenant with the many
2) During the first years of the tribulation the 10 confederation is forming
3) AC fights along the way and comes out of likely obscurity (little horn)
4) Perhaps in year 2 or 3 of the tribulation the 10 nation is firmer in place
5) The little horn takes down 3 kings (maybe by the 3rd year of the tribulation)
6) The 11th horn emerges as "who can fight the beast?"
7) AC notice as the 11th seems commensurate with him becoming a super power (enters the false prophet)
8) By the trib midpoint the 11th horn demands worship and the mark.
So I would see the fourth beast of Daniel arise during the first year or 2 of the tribulation. And the 11th horn be AC's 3.5 year reign identification.
This may not be something commonly looked at as such, but Margery might you find any biblical impossiblitieis where exegetically the above could not be the case? Because if there is not, looking for enough to happen to form into globalism to control the world for the tribulation setup, could in this respect, prove to be not perhaps the best fine tunning of what things look like when the tribulation hits. In this sense, the ending of the age of church age grace could be its own separate story from the story of what forms in the early periods of the tribulation. And if there be any truth or accuracy to that, what might ironically be seen during the age of grace is an NWO takedown. But that does not make sense if we are looking for an NWO to arise by the tribulation time. So what I am saying with this is just that we could see a literal NWO takedown in the age of grace. And the 10 nation confederacy not even begin to crystalize until the first few months of the tribulation. Maybe this might seem to appear like, "Why would God tell us what was coming if so much of what occurs before it would look almost like its opposite?" This is where I would see ontological differences. Where the story of the age of grace church age end could likely be more about the themes of God's mercy while on display. Related to His being over the era of grace. And the ontoloigcal story of God in His fury toward sin during the tribulation age. We are not told that the 4th beast has to emerge out of the church age of grace. Or that God might not have an end time signature of His own in the age of grace closing. What we do see prophetically is what relates to ontological, sense of being, Israel/God interfacing age (week 70). What we do see prophetically is the story of God dealing with Israel. It's not the story of God toward the church or the church age. And as much as we might want to include ourselves into God's interface with Israel, that is not exactly our call. And in many ways, we should be grateful in many ways we are not. The church ontological relationship with God is not the same era thematic as what prophecy shows because it is showing prophecy as it relates to the story of God and Israel 70th week closure. Not age of grace with the church, closure. But understandably in our excitement we may tend to blend the two together. The tribulation and rise of antichrist is not the church's story. Nor the age of grace story. Yet, if we step back a moment, would we think we don't exactly function that way? This is why, to me, it seems so much focus on the beast system today may lead to some very wrong overtures of the age of grace church age future. Could I be mistaken and the 70th week blend totally into the church age? Yes. But by nature of how awkward it sounds when phrased that way though...I would lean more toward...not at all. God is not dealing with Isreal's 70th week while we are in the room. And I just think there is enough difference there in huge themes to be completely altogether different though. If that makes sense?
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MARGERY --Before that we saw Obama give away control of the internet. Just leave it in the hands of the same global corporations like google to manage. That was puzzling for many, but it was another indicator that America was letting go power and control of the world. I think God allowed each President in his term to do things that would set things up for the Tribulation. That internet is how we access web cams, like the ones in Jerusalem that will allow the people of the whole planet to see the 2 Witnesses lying dead, then rising after 3 days.
Understood. But I believe what goes with our thematic is that globalism wants America to let go. Whereas it seems Trump in many ways is interested in doing the opposite. We shall see. We could see Obama and Trump on the same team. And maybe Trump is going to let America go into the trash can. But what has been postured is Trump is against globalist themes to disimpower America. If that is an accurate read, it makes sense God to use America to strengthen Isreal unto peace and safety. In that view, America does not have to weeken because Obama did what he did. It is too early to tell how much of Hagelian Dailectic might play into the political schematic. When something becomes too popular like the movie the Titanic, I tend to see that when the church holds too strong of views on something socio-economically, and builds massive blueprints on them...its likely going to be something alternative to that to put it shame. This is just the sense I have gotten over the years. And how prophecy can be used to enforce human views as though they were from on high. No doubt I am doing the same if incorrect. But in comparison, my influence goes about as far as the local market...lol. Whereas evangelicalism has her books, conferences, pulpits, and interviews. Taking down my view is like taking down a third grader with a lolly-pop. lol. And my view in no wise is anything close to evangelical influences in the age of Laodicea. Just saying.
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MARGERY --The Providence you see for America is tied to their support of Israel and their sending forth the gospel to the nations. When those 2 purposes are done (at the Rapture) it's lights out!
Amen. I believe, call me old fashioned, that the rapture might be marketd by Isreal. lol. The prophetic one. If so, it would seem that God would want Israel to rapture with the church...as many who might. So in that sense I would see the rapture delayed to provide Israel with perhaps one last big ol huge tap on the shoulder. That is where I see Trump come in. Not MAGA. But MIGA. So because of that, I would say rapture timing is likely more related to Israel than the church or our high watch times: "Said no one ever in evangelicalism." lol. Well I'm saying it. Does not make it right. And I might be as wrong as anyone else on this. But that is how I would say a hearty amen to your above quote. As JD hath said in the past, "When the bomb comes down, we go up." And in that sense, I can greatly concur with JD that MIGA is perhaps a high rapture watch ingredient.
I look forward to your reply when you have a chance dear sister. And thanks for all your kind and lovely gestures in discussion. So great to know you Margery. And be on this forum. Amen. Blessings. 