I have been asked to begin a discussion on the subject of Israel and the land they occupy. Specifically, does Israel have an existing right to that land? And if so, just how much land? The purpose of this thread opener is not to answer all those questions but to set the ground for the discussion. I will, howeve, quote from a very reasoned article on this topic written by Australian Pastor Dean Dwyer who is very knowledgeable in Bible prophecy.
He frames his argument in the context of there being two types of covenant in the Old Testament-- conditional and unconditional. Conditional means God promises to do something as long as the other party does something. For example many of God's blessings upon Israel are conditional upon Israel's obedience to God. But some covenants are not dependent on man. They are unconditionally made by God without any human interaction and absolutely no conditions attached. They are as solid and unchanging as God Himself. As you will see, the covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 15 is one of these.
"Although promises were clearly made to Abram (as he was still known at the time) in Genesis 12 and 13, a covenant was not formally established until Genesis 15. If you want clarity on the absolute certainty and reliability of God’s promises to Israel, particularly in relation to its land grant, Genesis 15 provides it. Yet, prior to 1948, some struggled to see it, despite the fact that Genesis 17:7-8 clearly confirms its nature as an everlasting covenant through Abraham’s descendants: “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.“
"In Genesis 15:8, Abraham (Abram) asks God how he will be assured of the fact that God has promised he and his descendants the land: “And he said, ‘Lord GOD, how shall I know that I will inherit it?'” It was not an expression of faithlessness but a desire for confirmation of the divine promise. In response, God affirmed His covenant with Abraham (Abram) in a remarkable ceremony (Genesis 15:9-17), unilaterally committing Himself to carry out the terms of the covenant. Could God be trusted? Of course. Numbers 23:19: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has he said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?”
"Parties to a covenant passed through severed animals as a pledge that if either one broke the covenant, that party would suffer the same cutting that their animals had undergone. Because it is impossible for the Lord to be severed and mutilated, Abraham (Abram) could rest assured that he would undoubtedly receive the promised seed, the promised blessing, and the promised land. In Genesis 12:1 God told Abraham (Abram) that He would show him the land. In Genesis 13:17 God told Abraham (Abram) that He would give him the land. But in Genesis 15:18 God told Abraham (Abram) He had given him the land. God’s covenant made it a settled matter. Psalm 105:8-12: “He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant, saying, ‘To you I will give the land of Canaan as the allotment of your inheritance,’ when they were few in number."
(Full article at https://harbingersdaily.com/as-the-...am-accords-it-forgets-the-abrahamic-covenant/)
Anyway, there you have it: a starting point. Let the discussion begin.
He frames his argument in the context of there being two types of covenant in the Old Testament-- conditional and unconditional. Conditional means God promises to do something as long as the other party does something. For example many of God's blessings upon Israel are conditional upon Israel's obedience to God. But some covenants are not dependent on man. They are unconditionally made by God without any human interaction and absolutely no conditions attached. They are as solid and unchanging as God Himself. As you will see, the covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 15 is one of these.
"Although promises were clearly made to Abram (as he was still known at the time) in Genesis 12 and 13, a covenant was not formally established until Genesis 15. If you want clarity on the absolute certainty and reliability of God’s promises to Israel, particularly in relation to its land grant, Genesis 15 provides it. Yet, prior to 1948, some struggled to see it, despite the fact that Genesis 17:7-8 clearly confirms its nature as an everlasting covenant through Abraham’s descendants: “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.“
"In Genesis 15:8, Abraham (Abram) asks God how he will be assured of the fact that God has promised he and his descendants the land: “And he said, ‘Lord GOD, how shall I know that I will inherit it?'” It was not an expression of faithlessness but a desire for confirmation of the divine promise. In response, God affirmed His covenant with Abraham (Abram) in a remarkable ceremony (Genesis 15:9-17), unilaterally committing Himself to carry out the terms of the covenant. Could God be trusted? Of course. Numbers 23:19: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has he said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?”
"Parties to a covenant passed through severed animals as a pledge that if either one broke the covenant, that party would suffer the same cutting that their animals had undergone. Because it is impossible for the Lord to be severed and mutilated, Abraham (Abram) could rest assured that he would undoubtedly receive the promised seed, the promised blessing, and the promised land. In Genesis 12:1 God told Abraham (Abram) that He would show him the land. In Genesis 13:17 God told Abraham (Abram) that He would give him the land. But in Genesis 15:18 God told Abraham (Abram) He had given him the land. God’s covenant made it a settled matter. Psalm 105:8-12: “He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant, saying, ‘To you I will give the land of Canaan as the allotment of your inheritance,’ when they were few in number."
(Full article at https://harbingersdaily.com/as-the-...am-accords-it-forgets-the-abrahamic-covenant/)
Anyway, there you have it: a starting point. Let the discussion begin.