Are The Jewish People Being Set Up For The Ultimate Betrayal?

By Jan Markell for
Harbinger 's Daily

Have you ever been betrayed? Maybe you have more than once. Maybe many times. I bet you find it hard to trust anyone now.

You see, the Jews didn’t take things seriously in Germany in the 1930s. It wouldn’t get all that bad. They were comfortable and assimilated back then. Whatever was happening would blow over. The Jews had contributed in so many positive ways to European society. The warning signs had to be false alarms!

They were betrayed in Europe, and it is happening again, and now they are reading the handwriting on the wall! The messages of warning are everywhere! This time they are paying attention. They’ve gotten the message that now it is the two-minute warning! Here’s why.

• Their 75-year ally, America, is chastising, marginalizing, scolding, and telling them to lose their war. Don’t retaliate when attacked. Their long-time friend favors Iran.
• Politicians who are “one of them” have turned on them. Can you say, Chuck Schumer?
• The media has betrayed them—even the conservative media. Can you say “Tucker Carlson?”
• Parts of the church are hostile due to Replacement Theology. Others don’t want to make waves or wade into controversy.
• Every global outfit from the U.N. to the W.E.F. to the I.C.C. to the E.U. laments the plight of the so-called Palestinians. In fact, most of the world feels the Jews are the oppressors and the Palestinians are the oppressed. They support Hamas. They have sympathy for barbarians. That’s hard to imagine.

So, someone is waiting in the wings who is the ultimate betrayer and he will fool them, too. Because they are in a state of fear and anxiety, they will be open to his cunning message. This global mover and shaker may be inconsequential right now, but he is rehearsing how he will play into their insecurities. He’s in the shadows now.

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Are The Jewish People Being Set Up For The Ultimate Betrayal? - Harbingers Daily

This is the classic set-up right now! A charismatic man is waiting in the wings. He will seduce the “left behind” world, but he will mesmerize many Jews because they are being primed to be told that a benevolent dictator is their best friend and will never betray them--ever.

harbingersdaily.com

 

[1LoverofGod]

Beautifully said!
Even so Come Lord Jesus!
Maranatha!

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Yeah maybe the Lord is using anti semitism to hasten the Jews aliyah back to Israel?

 

[Growing in Grace]

So, someone is waiting in the wings who is the ultimate betrayer and he will fool them, too.

If the AC is waiting in the wings, maybe the False Prophet is busy laying the groundwork.

The reason I kinda think that way is because there's a spiritual dimension.

Maybe I'm reading too much from James Lindsay (expert on communist propaganda). It's a method of drawing a mass of people to a lie.

Communism is easier for me to understand, not that I expect the FP to be heading in that direction.

 

[Margery]

If the AC is waiting in the wings, maybe the False Prophet is busy laying the groundwork.

The reason I kinda think that way is because there's a spiritual dimension.

Maybe I'm reading too much from James Lindsay (expert on communist propaganda). It's a method of drawing a mass of people to a lie.

Communism is easier for me to understand, not that I expect the FP to be heading in that direction.

Same sort of lie. Communism, Globalism, all means to an end for people who want to take over the world.

 

[Growing in Grace]

Same sort of lie. Communism, Globalism, all means to an end for people who want to take over the world.

Exactly, I'm not sure if Chrislam fits it too??

Oddly, on X I see there are suggestions that two camps of Christian groups who could push the propaganda: 1) Christian Nationalists who seem ready to arm & resist, and the odd group, 2) overly pious Christians who 'love' Islamists.

 

[Margery]

Exactly, I'm not sure if Chrislam fits it too??

Oddly, on X I see there are suggestions that two camps of Christian groups who could push the propaganda: 1) Christian Nationalists who seem ready to arm & resist, and the odd group, 2) overly pious Christians who 'love' Islamists.

You are right!

Chrislam fits in with the extreme liberal arm of the church both Catholic and Protestant. Christians in name only and extreme social gospel types. They want a tamer Islam even if it's only a figment of their imagination. An Islam that compromises on LGB etc and doesn't call for blood every 20 seconds. Of course they don't understand the Muslim concept called Taqquiya in which the Muslim is encouraged to lie, to create false truces until the moment arrives when it's good to strike.

And whether the QAnon supporters are willing to believe it - I think they are being set up on the other side of the political aisle to bring in the globalist agenda even if it's just as a useful adversary or whipping boy to point to as the globalists herd the masses towards the OWG agenda. Just as they got used in the last election to say see what evil right wingers do (in that set up in January)

Both groups sacrifice the truth of the Bible for their political beliefs, compromising and bending Scripture to fit their agendas.

Both groups are useful idiots as the Communists term their patsies.

I gotta read or listen to James Lindsay. He sounds interesting. Have you read Rebekah Koffler? She is a Russian American who has been warning about Russian communist and post communist tactics for years. She worked for the CIA for years, but under Obama she got shoved out. They didn't like her warnings. George and I have been listening to her for years (well George isn't anymore but you get my drift). She's been saying what my late father in law said too.

 

[Growing in Grace]

Here's a bonus, Dinesh D'Souza interviewing James Lindsay: CAMP TERROR Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep823

I will definitely look up Rebekah Koffler.

It seems odd to me that we in the West are still so naive.

 

[mattfivefour]

I think we're naive because we do not have a media that is doing its job. Our media currently is worse than no media at all.

 

[Growing in Grace]

Adrian, your insight just made my day. I really haven't taken the news media serious for years, but yes, they are making things worse.

I've studied propaganda a bit, thought I had a basic understanding of it, but you're so on target to say they powerfully make things worse. I think I underestimated their depth and abilities.

 

[TCC]

Thnanks for this post. I would like to preface my response post with first off: I think it is awesome that the body of Christ is excited about end times and that we can see ourselves as that generation. However, periodically I would put forth something to consider that i hope is not disruptive in any way. But provides a contrastive POV. In general the way the watcher community will be looking at end times, as far as i have seen, is through the lens of cross-polinating into our age of grace events we know will come in the tribulation. It makes sense we as a people of God might view eschatology in this way. As we look at Matt 24 and we look at the book of Revelation, we know what is coming. And we know that things that happen in our generation will likely lead into those tribulation events.

Alternatively though i would pose some food for thought here. Is it possible that the end of the age of grace is an entirely different era than the tribulation? What i mean is that, is it possible that the events that occur in our generation be in keeping with God's way of wrapping up the age of grace? Separate from the tribulation? I bellieve there of course will be some carry over. But what i seem to discover over the years is that there does seem to be a sense in which God might indeed have an "age of grace closing" that is its own thing. And that there may not be features of our end of age of grace age that pertains to the tribulation nor the church (since we don't go through the triblution). Like what does the church look like at the end of His age of grace though? Yes rapture. But i guess a good way to put it might be: Is the end of the age of grace more about the triublation or the end of His age of grace? I believe that is a good question.

From what i can tend see about the church seems to this: that we believe that the explanation of Revelation belongs to us because who else is there? The Jews as a nation are not turned to Christ yet. So that pretty much just leaves us, the church. But the book of Revelation is "for the tribulation age." At least in who will be very accurate about its occurances. We can guess when this might be or presume this event over here or there will become "the beast system" and such. But the book of Revelation I would surmise as to what is described in Rev 10, something Israel will have absolute clarity on as the 144k (or at least that chapter kind of looks like inferring that to me). In any case, the book or Revelation will only be fully understood by those in it. And that is not the church. Yet, we see it certainly is of the future soon to come. And we are the only ones with the best shot at it. But is that the same as being able to be all that accurate about it by walking the book of Rev back into the age of grace? If they are two separate ages, we can guess what becomes what next or soon. But pound for pound, we are not prophets to know nor have high percentage ability to backwalk eschatology found in Revelation into the our current age of grace...i would think...for the most part. I understand the heart felt good faith effort of the watcher community to do this. But as much as we do do that, i would think it might also be pretty cool to note what it would look like if God has granted us prophecy right now to track with in our age of grace that we might see in its own context, prior to, but leading up to tribulaiton. I believe THAT existing prophecy for us to digest is likely Ez 37,38, and 39. If this interests the reader, please proceed. If not, please excuse the long post. Blessings.

. . . . .

A STRANGE BRIDGE AND FILTER BY WHICH PERHAPS TO VIEW ISRAELI SOCIO/POLITICAL VALUE--PROPER...perhaps...

In weighing in on this great topic, a rule of thumb i try to factor in as consistently as i might (in terms of best socio-political reads of our day) is that the divide in America (left/right) seemed to have changed around the assassination of JFK. Thereafter, it would appear that globalist would run both right and left (more or less) slowly over time. As America seems to be waking up to this, we might tend to see left/right as Hagelian Dialectic. And to a dergree i believe it is. In the sense that globalism has been running both sides against the middle.

What globalism seems to have interest in is grabbing countries from within. Then operate through new leadership as though the globalist take over = that country. When really that country increasingly becomes a proxy for gloablist actors playing the world like a chess board (where they become ultimately the only players). Some countries are more effected than others. When the USA did our regime change anticts, i believe that is the functioning arm of globalism from within taking over sectors of America to regime change and force the world to use the America dollar as a means of increasing global control. I would imagine BRICS was fromed to offset this to a degre.

ISRAEL AND RAFAH
Using that as a filter, the US seems to use the CIA to produce terror groups like Isis around the world. And recently negotiated with Hamas for a cease fire without Israel agreeing at that table. And then the Biden admin would pressure Israel by delaying arms shipments (so that Israel feels they have to comply...not having been invited to the negotiating table). This kind of approach to foreign policy seems steeped in globalist mentality. The globalist agenda here looks like it is trying to protect their Hamas asset from Israel destroying them. So the negotiation could seem to be really about American CIA and Biden Admin (globalists) protecting their Hamas asset. They need them to continue universtiy protests like we saw with Antifa and BLM (which i would view as the same animal).

AMERICA IS IRAN?
The new Antifa and BLM would appear to be Hamas supporters in the USA enfused with overseas dollars, the Muslim Brotherhood organization and Soros. The idea would be to use protests and riots in the USA to intimidate and distract America from not keeping Biden (or the globalist) regime in power come November. So in that sense i think Israel is doing the right thing by eliminating Hamas. It will be interesting to see if the Universities (or other places) can maintain protests if Hamas is removed. No doubt it will then go toward hezbollah...so i guess we can keep protests going by extending beyond Hamas and fuel USA riots and some potential US terror via hezbollah support. It may sound odd because Iran is known for using hezbollah. I think a more accurate way to likely look at that might be the globalist regime in Iran uses hezbollah like the US CIA negotiates with Hamas without considering Israel. So the globlaist CIA is pretty much the same group as the globalist Iran using hezbollah (thus America through Obama sending pallets of cash to Iran during his term). Its the same entity i believe. So i just think its helpful to factor that in when adding also onto that gas fire, eschatology.

PEACE AND SAFETY
The best guestimate i would offer is that prophecy wise we are in the thrawls of Israel entering Ez 38 terrirotry. But for that to occur, Israel has to be at peace and safety levels. Which would seem best arrived at using Abraham Accords, Saudi normalization, and a Trump win in November. These all seem to be the more backdrop bellwethers indicating a potential Ez 38 potential. Its difficult to place passages like Zechariah 12. Perhaps that is what occured in 1948 and 1967 +. Most commentators place those passages at Armegeddon. However, how Israel returns to full strength at the end of the tribulation after being heavily chased down by the Antichrist is an anomaly. But maybe.

TRICKS OF THE TRADE
In any event it would appear that whatever happens in the short term, I would surmise a more likely trajectory of protest/riot/terror to increase in America toward the summer. And Fall. As giving up the globalist power seat of US pres will not be something they will want to let go of. It would seem that the interest of globalism is "global reset." The pandemic didn't work. Perhaps the WHO will get enough votes soon to start another pandemic in time for elections. But it would seem doubtful to be all that successful because the COVID pandemic is too widely seen as a farce. And the likelihood is high that Americans will not go along with it. However, it is a longstanding desire of globalist agenda to start a civil war if necessary in America. So i guess another pandemic might be a civil war hopeful i reckon.

I believe this is kind of important to point out because i believe it can be easy to lose sight of current grass roots rubber meets the road activity in our current day. Real actors and players today can be overshadowed by our projections when we lay over them a Revelaton or tribulation blanket. Perhaps thinking to see what our current actors and players today look like when laced with our ideas of Revelation and the tribulation to come. Doing too much of that can establish blinders to what is actually going on if the age of grace closing might be an age unto itself. Just a thought. Because if we are looking at the Abraham Accords as a soon and future AC covenant with the many and not see its current value in building Israel into widespread peace and safety for Ez 38, our AC covenant maker would be Ez 38 potentially. Our expectation of one to fix everything may be Israel losing 2/3rds of their nation before our eyes. Since Ez 38 is loudly on cue for our age, i just see it as a reasonable queation to ask: "Should we look potnetially as loudly at what is forming in the middle east as setting up Ez 38 prior to the AC AS we might be looking at the Abraham Accords as eventually the covenant with the many?" Well thanks for reading if you got this far.

In any event I know the tendency often in the watcher community is to see events in the tribulation up close and personal for our age of grace. But i would beg to differ for what it might be worth to consider. Blessings.

 

[mattfivefour]

@TCC -- I think I understand your point, brother. You are suggesting that we may not be doing anything constructive by relating what is taking place now in the world as related to bsetting up of what will come down the road in the Tribulation. . But may I ask you a question? Since we know the Church will be taken in the Rapture, prior to the start of Revelation 4, why did Jesus Christ want John to see and hear and communicate to the church what will transpire from that point on? If we are gone, what concern would it be of ours?

I'm interested in your answers. From that point on we can discuss this a little more.

 

[Margery]

Is it possible that the end of the age of grace is an entirely different era than the tribulation? What i mean is that, is it possible that the events that occur in our generation be in keeping with God's way of wrapping up the age of grace? Separate from the tribulation? I bellieve there of course will be some carry over. But what i seem to discover over the years is that there does seem to be a sense in which God might indeed have an "age of grace closing" that is its own thing.

I would agree. A couple of teachers that focus on the Essenes as seen thru the Dead Sea Scrolls have spoken about how the Essenes viewed the end of each age. There were distinctives related to each age, the one that was ending, the one that is coming in. A certain amount of bleed thru but each age had it's own distinctives. Dr Ken Johnson and Josh Peck both discuss how the Essenes viewed it.

I think there may be a potential gap of a few minutes to a few years from the time of the Rapture which is signless and imminent to the time of the Trib which starts with the covenant with Death and Hades as Isaiah calls it, Daniel's 70th week. (If there is a gap it may well allow further stage setting for the Trib)

So we land on the idea that there MIGHT be an unspecified amount of time from the Rapture which ends the church age and begins the post Rapture period which suddenly at some point turns into the final 7 years with that covenant as the starter pistol.

For example when the church began (30-33AD) there is a corresponding end to the Temple 40 years later or so depending on what year we land on for the Resurrection. The moment of the Cross, the veil in the Temple is torn in two, and no longer does the blood of bulls and lambs suffice to cover sin.

But the sacrificial system lasts for 40 more years (like the 40 years of wandering, the number 40 is often a time of testing. God isn't in it, that veil was torn, the Messiah has come and the sacrificial system is done. But there is a crossover period of about 40 years in which the Jews are given time to turn to Christ before the Temple system is completely destroyed by the Romans under God's hand. Those who die during that period die in their sins if they don't accept Jesus as Messiah.

During that period the split between the growing church and Judaism becomes wider and deeper. Many Jews come to Christ and become part of the growing church, while those who hardened themselves grew further apart.

After that period there is no possibility for a Jew to look to a sacrifice and the Rabbinic Judaism that we see today was instituted at the council of Yavneh in which the rabbis decided that GOOD WORKS would replace the sacrificial system. Since God had so obviously allowed the second Temple to be destroyed.

Am I suggesting another 40 year period between the Rapture and the Tribulation. No. But like the days of Noah, when he entered the Ark till the rains came, there is a time span of 7 days. There is a period of years between the call of Abraham, and the call of Moses, then the giving of the Law. Looking back in time we see the beginnings of the Jews at the call of Abraham, but it's completed in the wilderness at Sinai.

However just as before each of these ages or dispensations, there were prophecies in play that were about to be fulfilled. People like Anna and Simeon in the Temple, blessing the Lord at his circumcision were able to rejoice, seeing the Messiah some 30 plus years before the cross.

They are commended for knowing the time of their visitation and were eagerly expecting the Messiah even though it's unlikely either of these aged saints lived to see the cross.

In the same way the Lord has a blessing in Revelation for all who read it and pay attention, and that would be from the moment it was given to now and on to the Tribulation period when much of it will become crystal clear as each event takes place.

The letters to the churches that Adrian @mattfivefour speaks of encompass all the church down thru all the ages because each church speaks to the reader. Jesus says He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches plural. Rev 1 is clearly to all the servants of Christ (all the church age, every believer) in v 1 and v 3.

In Chapter 4-5 we see the elders - identified as the church first by the crowns (rewards)in Ch 4 v 4 then in Ch 5: 9-10 by the song that they sing. Christ redeemed them by His blood, and made us Kings and Priests, and we reign on the earth (during the Mill) which is a characteristic of the church age saints. This is different than the Trib saints who show up in Rev 7 v 14 and 16 give away the fact that they came out of the Tribulation and the sun doesn't smite them anymore -that is a characteristic of the Tribulation period of intense heat of the sun.

So even though much of Revelation happens during the Tribulation (after Ch 4) we do see the church age believers in heaven represented by 24 elders and before that as the 7 churches.

Like all the Bible, whether written before the Cross or after, it is all useful as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says, All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If we eagerly look for these things the prophetic scriptures, those who we witness to, who don't get saved before the Rapture, may well remember and take heed to get saved right afterwards or during the Trib.

We serve as signposts pointing the way to the Cross, not the Tribulation but the Tribulation and it's concepts will prove the message of the Cross. We get to be like Anna and Simeon in the Temple.

 

[TCC]

Hi Pastor Matt. Thanks for the question. Well first off i might say that after i reread the original post again on this thread, i'm not so sure my reply was overly helpful. So I feel kind of awkward in that. I mean i don't feel like my post was the greatest match or compliment to the orginal poster. So i would just like to say that I apologize if so. And something you said Pastor that caught my attention. "You are suggesting that we may not be doing anything constructive by relating what is taking place now in the world as related to bsetting up of what will come down the road in the Tribulation." And I appreciate the wording. Because I can see in the way i post i might be conveying that. And this causes me pause in how i am thinking about this. So i appreciate your phrasing things in this way.

Its just outside of this forum Pastor, i have been exposed to some fairly outlandish approaches on various sides of eschatology. So i think actually that is not maybe the kind of things i can best express on our forum. Because this forum is very relaxed, cordial, and mature. So on that note i would just like to say that I can see the Lord working on my heart in this forum becuase its quite a bit more real world like than just what kinds of thread exchanges i've had been involved with over the recent years. So i really appreciate you guys for having me. I believe i would benefit from thinking a bit more here perhaps in how to best compliment varying views. Which is great. Because in no way do i mean to convey that our sharing in end times discussions is less than constructive. I'm rather a free type thinker and genuinely appreciate diverse views myself. Although i have my own pet eschatological views for sure, I enjoy discussing things among various views in general.

Because you have asked, I believe my answer would be that we should not at all stop in seeing how our end of age of grace parlays into Revlation. And because of our nearness, it is of sincere and delightful consideration how that all works as we go along. What i have had concern with in the past (outside this forum) is the tendencies of seeing certain developments as we go be somewhat overly labeled. I don't actually see that here. Its just i think kind of my own baggage in a way. One prime example that i have seen for example would be like how we might be looking at the Abraham Accords. However long the church might remain, there are a few ways that acord might flesh out like. If i might be permitted to say, for clarities sake (in where i am kind of coming from), I believe the church raptures prior to the tribulation. I have seen and discussed a lot in how John's being called up into heaven at the start of chapter 4 is seen in a way like a mirror of the the church rapture. And also discussions of the 24 elders being the church. I appreciate those perspectives. I love the poetic nature too of those views. I would differ a bit on i guess the starting point of the tribulation i reckon. I am not saying my tendency is accurate. I would just lean in a particular way.

Like there are some folks that see for example the 4 hoursemen as part of birth pangs and not the tribulation. I would not have that view. I think they are a part of the tribultion. I could see chapter 4 as a prophetic story of sorts tandumn to the church rapture. But even so, it does not say that is the rapture though in scripture. Again, though, I am pretrib rapture 100%. I mean i would be partial to Rev 12 woman/child sign as like a taking us back to the beginning to just past the midpoint in story. Most theologians see the child going to heaven as Christ's ascension. I can see that, but there is also like an historic dispensational view that the child could also represent the church rapture (head/body). Actually in my view it is likely the strongest pretrib rapture signature in scripture. For many that might seem odd because Rev 12 is so far into Revelation. I have a comment on that I can share at the end. Like why that would be i guess my leaning. But I would just say here though that in my perspective the church might see seal one. Likely not seal two though. I realize this probably sounds like cheating or something lol. I've not seen anyone else say that. So its just my own particular conviction. It may be dead wrong. i can also see us rapture before a literal first seal, amen brother.

The main reason I believe God gave John Revelation is to know Him at that level. Like it seems that the book of Revelation is God's heart revealed as He demonstrates both His great mercy and great judgement in a prophetic way--end times. For me what it is I guess is wrestling with that tension in His revealed plans. It is said in Revelaton that it provides a special blessing for those who read it and obey it. The 7 churches help us gauge that. But chapters 6+ would kind of be for me I reckon, no matter how bad it seems now we are can take confort in the shade of His goodness like Romans 11:2. I would be very interested though to hear your view on what is meant by reading and obeying it provides a special blessing. How would you see it might mean that? I've never really discovered in various commentaries I guess something that sticks with me.

I stayed away from the book of Revelation for like 20 years in my Christain walk. i'm not proud of that, i just didn't understand how that book worked. When things started getting a bit strange in 2017 i thought it was probably a good time to get familiar. So when i set out to study it i got my commentaries out. And wow. I was so lost...lol. Because some see a view from heaven vs. the view from earth approach. Some saw the three cycles simultanous. Some saw them sequential. Some saw chapters as things to overlay with Chiastic structure layering chapters over each other. I was like, "How do i even start?" So what i did was just put the commentaries away and read it over and over. Then developed a simple outline of events. And read the book over and over with the outline noticing some similarities. So now Revelation has become extremely familiar to me. In that i think im convinced the judgement cysles are linear and progress one out of the other. And i see Revelation tracking in linear fashion. But there are other things it seems to do.

In my schoolastic studies i took to literature and story form. I was reminded that there was one story form i really felt challnged by called Modular Narrative. It tells a story from varying angles. It did not come about until the 1800s and is most used in the movie industry. Then i was shocked to realize Daniel was not written in linear fashion. I'd love to be more familiar with ancient Jewish literature styles. But in some ways i would see Revelation have elements of modular narrative in that it seems to have a certain style of that particularly in chapters 10-15, and 17 & 18. In general i see Revelation as linear. But with modular focus approaches in places seemingly like I would see in those chapters.

Not everyone will be interested in literary form. So perahps the blessings of Revelation can tend to be individual in a way. Like for me it is like in romance of literary form (and by that i don't mean i see Revelation as allegory....for i see it as definately literal and uses imagery to be literal too like). And how that helps me appreciate the character of God in ways. For another it could be how utterly final and perfect His judgements are. And for another it could be the reawekening of Israel unto God's promises to her. And we could go on and on there. But the best stab at answering your question pastor for me would be, and this is my guess: In seeing God's full revelation, we can digest His character this way. And that as we see Him in greater fullness to the degree we might or can in our temporal state, we might see prism, hue, or amber of His charector thematically in ways microscosmically playing out in this way or that in our lives or in history. How we might divide that up will vary i reckon from person to person. So how i would conclude is with the most intimate of answer. But in this dear brother i mean not at all that we should not see and talk about what we might. Or how our age merges into that age, for sure, for sure. I'd feel like a stick in the mud party pooper to mean that or convey that. I likely need to learn better ways to express. Because its more for me to just have what i'm saying like priming for "what if Ez 38 is a larger focus than Revelation in our immediate context and how that parlays with prophecy unfolding?" kind of thing. But not wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But I don't think we are as used to how a near focus of Ez 38 (if even that is the best approach to do it like that) as we are with Revelaton. So the most intimate: Like those that get a new name only they and the Lord knows (Rev 2:17)...it would seem that Revelation becomes a kaleidoscope into the cascading of His person upon us uniquely fashioned in Him. Hope that doesn't sound too out there.

So as i think upon this answer, it does humble me further to maybe not be as necessarily verbal about my sense of not bringing the tribulation into the age of grace. Maybe that is actually the place of members of the body...in how it further is useful to Him in further disclosing His character and person to us. In this way i would resonate most with the book of Revelation i guess. Please notice in that it has so much more to do with Him, His charcter, His attributes, His person...then even i would say how prophecy seems to us to unfold. But i would not want to live in a world, Pastor Matt, where the church was not interested in seeing how the current of our age drifts us into the 70th week. Because where we are onto something...amen. Where we might be mistaken, we get a chance to see perhaps so much more going on in the world we might not have considered being not so mistaken. If that makes sense...lol. In any case, thanks for this opportunity to think through some of this. Blessings.

 

[mattfivefour]

Brother, I loved your post but that does not mean I agree with every single thing you said. I just really love the way you tried to express yourself and clarify things that you have written. I very much like your idea that God gave us Revelation to reveal Himself to us more. For, yes indeed, it does reveal so much of His character --both His love and His judgment-- in the book. But I do not think that that was the primary reason God gave us the Revelation. He may be revealing more of His character in Revelation, but surely that would not be His primary purpose, because He has already spent 65 books of the Bible clearly outlining His love and His judgment in many ways and in great depth.

All of which led me to my opinion that the primary purpose of Revelation is something else. And it is, because the very first sentence in the book says very clearly "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass." We cannot skip past this sentence then begin picking up ideas from later on in the book. The first sentence lays out the purpose. God wants to show His servants the future. So, by God's own words, the primary purpose of the Revelation is to tell His children what is to come.

Why? Well, clearly, first of all so that we may be aware of the coming judgment upon this Earth and the people who dwell on it but who reject their Maker. Secondly, so that we may be prepared in our own hearts to trust in God by seeing the future approaching closer and closer. Thirdly, so that we may warn others by showing them the way of salvation in order that they may avoid judgment in this life as well as the Judgment in the life to come. And fourth, so that there is a road map of the events of the Great Tribulation so that those left behind, having missed the Rapture, may see what is transpiring, may therefore know that this is the hand of God, and may repent and therefore be saved. (This final point may possibly be the most important reason, since God loves all and wishes none to be lost)

Additionally --and I suggest most importantly for believers-- chapters two and three give a very clear picture of the state of the Church throughout history, from it's inception to its Rapture. This is to ensure that those who are alive during the existence of each of the seven churches can judge what is going on, because they know it was foretold and they know God is in control. The pictures of the seven churches will also enable them to see where the error is in what they are being taught and therefore be able to live pleasing to God regardless of the teaching and practices of the church age they live in.

I pray this all makes sense to you.

 

[Matthew6:33]

Just some thoughts of mine.

Revelation is important for all ages because it IS the testimony of Jesus.

[Rev 19:10 KJV]
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation is revealed:

[Rev 1:1 KJV]
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Contrast Revelation 1:1 with Daniel 12:4 below. Daniel is told to seal the book.

[Dan 12:4 KJV]
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So Jesus gave us Revelation to REVEAL His testimony to us (church/grace age) and to give us peace about what will happen and to witness to us (as watchers) about the convergence of signs. It also will be fully illuminated during the time of Jacob's trouble (70th week).
Maranatha!

 

[mattfivefour]

So Jesus gave us Revelation to REVEAL His testimony to us (church/grace age) and to give us peace about what will happen and to witness to us (as watchers) about the convergence of signs. It also will be fully illuminated during the time of Jacob's trouble (70th week).

Thank you. You said it far better and far more concisely than I.

 

[Growing in Grace]

existing prophecy for us to digest is likely Ez 37,38, and 39

This is what many of us think is soon on the horizon.

Using that as a filter, the US seems to use the CIA to produce terror groups like Isis around the world.

Sadly, I see this too. If you haven't checked out Mike Benz and James Lindsay, you'd find they give a deep dive on these problems.

The best guestimate i would offer is that prophecy wise we are in the thrawls of Israel entering Ez 38 terrirotry. But for that to occur, Israel has to be at peace and safety levels. Which would seem best arrived at using Abraham Accords, Saudi normalization, and a Trump win in November.

That's possible, or what if Israel stomps on Hamas and becomes more complacent/self-reliant (praying that's not going to happen). One major issue in Israel now is that they let their guard down on Oct. 7 and ignored warnings.

Where we might be mistaken, we get a chance to see perhaps so much more going on in the world we might not have considered being not so mistaken.

Yeah, I often ask myself how mistaken I may be.

Glad you're here TCC!

 

[Growing in Grace]

We serve as signposts pointing the way to the Cross, not the Tribulation but the Tribulation and it's concepts will prove the message of the Cross.

Beautifully stated

 

[TCC]

Brother, I loved your post but that does not mean I agree with every single thing you said. I just really love the way you tried to express yourself and clarify things that you have written. I very much like your idea that God gave us Revelation to reveal Himself to us more. For, yes indeed, it does reveal so much of His character --both His love and His judgment-- in the book. But I do not think that that was the primary reason God gave us the Revelation. He may be revealing more of His character in Revelation, but surely that would not be His primary purpose, because He has already spent 65 books of the Bible clearly outlining His love and His judgment in many ways and in great depth.

All of which led me my opinion that the primary purpose of Revelation is something else. And it is, because the very first sentence in the book says very clearly "This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass." We cannot skip past this sentence then begin picking up ideas from later on in the book. The first sentence lays out the purpose. God wants to show His servants the future. So, by God's own words, the primary purpose of the Revelation is to tell His children what is to come.

Why? Well, clearly, first of all so that we may be aware of the coming judgment upon this Earth and the people who dwell on it but who reject their Maker. Secondly, so that we may be prepared in our own hearts to trust in God by seeing the future approaching closer and closer. Thirdly, so that we may warn others by showing them the way of salvation in order that they may avoid judgment in this life as well as the Judgment in the life to come. And fourth, so that there is a road map of the events of the Great Tribulation so that those left behind, having missed the Rapture, may see what is transpiring, may therefore know that this is the hand of God, and may repent and therefore be saved. (This final point may possibly be the most important reason, since God loves all and wishes none to be lost)

Additionally --and I suggest most importantly for believers-- chapters two and three give a very clear picture of the state of the Church throughout history, from it's inception to its Rapture. This is to ensure that those who are alive during the existence of each of the seven churches can judge what is going on, because they know it was foretold and they know God is in control. The pictures of the seven churches will also enable them to see where the error is in what they are being taught and therefore be able to live pleasing to God regardless of the teaching and practices of the church age they live in.

I pray this all makes sense to you.

I agree Pastor with pretty much everything you said. Amen. Out of all of that though would you say then that the reason Revelation says we would be blessed by reading and doing it is the part about the churches in 2-3 since this would be for most of the readership?

I don't mean to seem distant from the obvious sense of the future revealed. The reason though i would focus on what i did is lets say we are accurate (and i believe we are) that 2,000 years from the cross is the 70th week (approximation wise). This would mean that pretty much 1950 years of that (if we boil a generation down to 50 years just for measure), or "most of the entire church age (some 39 out of 40 generations)" would not see fulfillment beyond chapter 3 in Revelation during their lifetime. So that is why (not seeing the future yet or even enough power in the current pulling us directly into the 70th week) knowing the character of God in His plans of the future is what would seem to minister most to the majority of the church age throughout history though it would seem.

We might be saying a similar thing in that Pastor. Like those that see (including John in the 1st century) God wanted us to know how the future goes. God wanted every generation throughout the church age to "know" this. Amen. Perhaps it is similar to knowing this in how we count on Him and His plans. Also, in case like lets say the reformed perspective that sees that Revelation is allegory and there is no tribulation and what occurs is that the church gets greater and greater until the church rules the world. That is kind of the old school (and NAR view, new school) of reformed perspective--that things get better and better until it is ripe and lovely for Christ to return. That is for the most part the reformed viewed on eschatology (not all--some like Macarthur though reformed sees it as we do...pretrib raputre & tribulation of 7 years). So yeah since that is the Spirit of Revelation AS CHRIST (Rev 19:10), the spirit of revealing is the Spirit of Christ. So yeah what is future...seals, trumpets, bowls, armegeddon, thousand year reign of Christ, then eternal state is in that which will "actually be" the spirit of Christ as He is the creator and all seeing One. He has planned for the future and administrates those plans. Its not accident. Its not random chance. And its not alternative eschatology. But it is what actually "is to be." There is only one real future. What that is in this sense would be of the spirit of Christ--His testimony that what is said in Revelation is true and real.

In any event brother I guess my concern is like what i have seen in watcher circles where books are written, conferences ensue, interviews conducted, and a mass of the church getting caught up in this view or that. I am a total advocate for books, interviews, and conventions. Amen. I guess what has concerned me is seeing some aspects of the church rely too heavily on their convictions about their understanding of eschatology. Especially in seeing how this or that means this and that now. The example i gave was like the Abraham Accords. They may mean later the covenant with the many. I see that potential. But they may formostly mean how Isreal gets strong and in position (with no antichrist in sight). I mean the reason for Ez 38 would not be that the AC makes a deal with the many. Because it shows Israel sacked and then defended by God. It would not seem for God to defend the AC covenant for Him...as the Father will get the glory, amen.

So my point was merely to propose perhpas more consideration of Ez 38 to be perhaps a more "go to" theme for our season in end times and closing of the age of grace--for the purpose of how to align all other things we well see in Revelation. Because we may tend to line up what is occuring in our day and age more so with Revelation than Ez 38. If there be somewhat this tencency..in so doing this perhaps in ways we might come to some very different conclusions potentially if that makes sense? I mean if this tendency is true, might we not admit that the church's hottest focus on Revelation (while minoring perhaps even somewhat in Ez 38 data points forming conceretetly), could surmise developments in our day and age that might be seen differently understood as we interpret them now and what they might mean in respect to a tribulation age yet to come?

That is why i believe the Abraham Accords are a good "exhibit A" of this sort of thing. Maybe. Only the Lord knows. Now time will soon tell, as we are in the thrawls of what those accords can or might mean and become. But if as they are forming perhaps to strengthen Israel for lets say an Ez 38 demise just a few years out, and our focus only, mainly, or primarily sees the Abraham Accords through a Daniel/Revelation filter and not so much their potential serviceability in respect to Ez 38....would that not be taking our eye off to a certain degree of the events providentially provided for our age and how the church might be most useful in the thrawls of literal unfolding prophecy around us? I hope that makes a point to a degree. In any case yeah it is not by this meant that we don't bring to the table all that you have said dear brother. For yeah...if we did not have that excitement or association in our hearts to share with the world AND one another, we would make ourselves a rather clueless lot. In which some churches choose not to see. Or just really focused on other things. But just that in our seeing, amen, it would almost seem in some ways Israel can vacariously and potentially be somewhat competiting with some watcher Revelation views by virtue of Ez 38 having come from her and owning potentially some strong gravity and territory in our day and age--as Ez 38 likely continues to unfold? Blessings.