A Gap between the Rapture and the Trib?

[Kaatje]

I used to be very heavy into the "whats and if and maybes", and it is fine to discuss these matters.
But speaking strictly for myself, I don't care so much about it anymore.
We won't be here to see these things pan out. Gap or no, the AC, te sequence of things, etc.

I used to think we would be watching "from the balcony", but don't think that anymore either.
When I read Rev. 5, I see everybody's attention is focussed only on the One that sits on the throne,
and the slain Lamb that became the Lion at His right hand.
And all that the creatures, the angels and humans can do, is worship Them.

And even when the souls under the altar ask how long it will take before God's judgement will be completed,
They are told to wait, not to watch (Rev. 6).

So again, not disparaging this tread/discussion, it is interesting!
But less, then focussing on the Heavenly things.

If‭ ye‭‭ then‭ be risen‭‭ with Christ‭, seek‭‭ those things which are above‭,
where‭ Christ‭ sitteth‭‭‭‭ on‭ the right hand‭ of God‭.‭
‭Set your affection‭‭ on things above‭, not‭ on things on‭ the earth‭.‭
Coll. 3:1,2

These verses are very well known, and they are about living a holy life on earth.
But we might also take it as a prophecy, which will come to full fruition when we come to be in Heaven.

 

[Andy C]

I used to be very heavy into the "whats and if and maybes", and it is fine to discuss these matters.
But speaking strictly for myself, I don't care so much about it anymore.
We won't be here to see these things pan out. Gap or no, the AC, te sequence of things, etc.

I used to think we would be watching "from the balcony", but don't think that anymore either.
When I read Rev. 5, I see everybody's attention is focussed only on the One that sits on the throne,
and the slain Lamb that became the Lion at His right hand.
And all that the creatures, the angels and humans can do, is worship Them.

Prophecy is fun to discuss/debate, but as you said, what were discussing in this thread wont matter to the church. We will be gone with the rapture, never will there be a need again to debate “what ifs”.

I agree also that once we are raptured, and finally Home with Him, we will not focus one iota on life below, but focus on Him, and our new eternal life in our glorified body.

 

[Goodboy]

The English Bible uses the definite article “the” but it isn’t present in the Hebrew original.

the word confirm in Hebrew is Gabar and it can mean to strengthen a pre existing agreement BUT

it USUALLY just means to create a strong covenant.

I used to think it meant strengthening an existing covenant until I heard that that is not the usual way of understanding the word gabar in this context.

gâbar (it's meaning)
A primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

You are correct when you say the Hebrew word is gabar, but who told you that it usually just means to create a strong covenant?


In any case you are free to believe what you like, but I will share something with you and others who are reading this.

The Holy Spirit has shown me that men seek to corrupt the King James Bible and one way they do that is by saying the Hebrew and Greek words have been translated incorrectly. Here are two examples.

The JW's are a major cult and that is exactly what they do. They have gone to great lengths of creating their own Bible which they claim is translated correctly where they say that John 1:1 is correctly translated "the Word was a God", because they don't believe Jesus is God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I attended a Sunday School class at a church where they were teaching Revelation. The teacher claimed that in Revelation 6:4 the Greek word was not sword but dagger. Now think about how dumb that is, someone ridding a horse killing people with a dagger. The teacher claimed "he read a book" where the author he claims is very good said that. Really? He believes some author over the King James Bible?
Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

So I have learned not to fall for those who claim to know Hebrew and Greek better than those who translated The King James Bible and seek to change the meaning. They act like the translators did not know Hebrew and Greek very well, but they did. The holy Spirit has shown me many places where the King James Bible is correct and newer translations are incorrect.

I am not sure who needs to hear this, but I know that someone needs to hear what I have written and I am not at all discouraged by those who disagree.

God Bless!

 

[Andy C]

Something @Andy C has mentioned also makes me think a gap is more likely: that there have been many attempts throughout history to form a world govt and yet God has never let it happen.

Yes, and immediately after the rapture would provide the perfect time for the OWG to finally complete their evil empire. Many nations would not willingly give up their sovereignty now, but with the world decimated by the loss of millions from the rapture, a leadership void will occur, perfect timing for the dark one to assume the reigns. JMHO.

 

[Kem]

I usually look at the fact that there was a transition period of sorts between the resurrection and ascension of our Lord Jesus and the start of the church age though it was a rather short one. On the other hand as Erica said, it is not really a big matter to us as we will not be here.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Many nations would not willingly give up their sovereignty now

Nor will they after Tribulation begins... thus the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. The OWG is never going to be a nice and neat package.

Even so, most of the nations appear poised (at least on paper) to give up their sovereignty to the WHO in 2024.

 

[Andy C]

Nor will they after Tribulation begins... thus the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. The OWG is never going to be a nice and neat package.

Even so, most of the nations appear poised (at least on paper) to give up their sovereignty to the WHO in 2024.

Sad but true in regards to the WHO - but that is not total control, and I cant imagine Russia or China and a few others would care less and would not follow the WHO.

 

[Hol]

Even so, most of the nations appear poised (at least on paper) to give up their sovereignty to the WHO in 2024.

That is troubling, not for us, but for our lost loved ones.

I’m going out on a limb to ask for input on this:

Have any of you got studies or have you resources that teach about the timing of the False Prophet’s coming onto the world stage?

I’m ignorant about that area, and so naturally I speculate

What if he is pulling puppet strings now? I’ll add an additional speculation that he may come to the rescue in the Middle East by introducing an evil religion that attracts all three faiths: Islam, phony Christianity, and Jews worldwide??

He could ease the ME wars in prep for the deal with the devil?!

 

[Tall Timbers]

Sad but true in regards to the WHO - but that is not total control, and I cant imagine Russia or China and a few others would care less and would not follow the WHO.

The WHO thing is like a beachhead. I would expect it to be just the beginning of nations surrendering this and that bit of sovereignty until they reach a point where they're stuck... Kind of like the nations in the E.U. now.

I do think that while some countries like Russia or China might sign up for this thing with the WHO, they'd probably not honor the directives but continue to operate as Sovereigns.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Have any of you got studies or have you resources that teach about the timing of the False Prophet’s coming onto the world stage?

Rev 13:11-15 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. He exercises all the authority of the first beast https://biblehub.com/nasb_/revelation/13.htm#fnin his presence. And he makes the earth and those who live on it worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of the sky to the earth in the presence of people. And he deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause all who do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

It appears that the false prophet follows the antichrist's entrance onto the world stage during the first half of Tribulation. Here's what Fruchtenbaum says in Footsteps of the Messiah on pages 249-250:

In the previous section the rise of the counterfeit father and the counterfeit son was dealt with. To complete the counterfeit trinity, the passages contain a description of the rise of the counterfeit holy spirit in the person of the False Prophet.

Following the rise of the first beast, the antichrist, John saw a second beast come out of the earth (as over against heaven), thus emphasizing his humanity. He will appear like a lamb, giving the appearance of a true religious character, and thus deceive many. But he will speak like a dragon and so will betray his true nature, for he will be an agent of Satan, who throughout the book is portrayed as a dragon. This second beast is elsewhere called the False Prophet (Rev 16:13; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10).

His activities as the counterfeit holy spirit are now spelled out (Rev 13:12-15). As the Holy Spirit exercises equal authority with the True Son the False Prophet will exercise equal authority with the counterfeit son (Re 13:12a). Just as the Holy Spirit calls all men to worship the resurrected Son, the False Prophet will call all men to worship the resurrected counterfeit son whose death-stroke was healed (Rev 13:12b. In order to fully carry out the deception, the False Prophet will have the power of the counterfeit spiritual gifts of miracles and will perform signs for the purpose of deception (Rev 13:13-14a). After convincing the world of the supremacy of the antichrist, he will command men to make an image of the Beast. After the image is made, it will be given life by the False Prophet. This power of giving life will be another factor why men will worship the antichrist and the image, and those who refuse to do so are put to death (Rev 13:14b-15).

In this manner, the counterfeit trinity will be complete.

 

[Andy C]

That is troubling, not for us, but for our lost loved ones.

I’m going out on a limb to ask for input on this:

Have any of you got studies or have you resources that teach about the timing of the False Prophet’s coming onto the world stage?

I’m ignorant about that area, and so naturally I speculate

What if he is pulling puppet strings now? I’ll add an additional speculation that he may come to the rescue in the Middle East by introducing an evil religion that attracts all three faiths: Islam, phony Christianity, and Jews worldwide??

He could ease the ME wars in prep for the deal with the devil?!

The timing for the FP to officially be recognized as the FP is at the beginning of the great tribulation, which is at the 3.5 year mark of the tribulation

 

[Margery]

gâbar (it's meaning)
A primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

You are correct when you say the Hebrew word is gabar, but who told you that it usually just means to create a strong covenant?


In any case you are free to believe what you like, but I will share something with you and others who are reading this.

The Holy Spirit has shown me that men seek to corrupt the King James Bible and one way they do that is by saying the Hebrew and Greek words have been translated incorrectly. Here are two examples.

The JW's are a major cult and that is exactly what they do. They have gone to great lengths of creating their own Bible which they claim is translated correctly where they say that John 1:1 is correctly translated "the Word was a God", because they don't believe Jesus is God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I attended a Sunday School class at a church where they were teaching Revelation. The teacher claimed that in Revelation 6:4 the Greek word was not sword but dagger. Now think about how dumb that is, someone ridding a horse killing people with a dagger. The teacher claimed "he read a book" where the author he claims is very good said that. Really? He believes some author over the King James Bible?
Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

So I have learned not to fall for those who claim to know Hebrew and Greek better than those who translated The King James Bible and seek to change the meaning. They act like the translators did not know Hebrew and Greek very well, but they did. The holy Spirit has shown me many places where the King James Bible is correct and newer translations are incorrect.

I am not sure who needs to hear this, but I know that someone needs to hear what I have written and I am not at all discouraged by those who disagree.

God Bless!

Who told me it usually means to create a strong covenant?

The Bible- Unless you are a KJV only fan, and discount the work of the many translators who have worked on the original to bring it out in such versions as the Amplified (which simply brings out all the possible interpretations and meanings within the original) or many other equally good versions.

If you are KJV ONLY then my answers won't make a difference but it may help others.



Daniel 9:27 - Bible Gateway Lets start here with the full Bible Gateway list of the English versions of the Bible on Dan 9:27

ASV And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week:
AMP And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many
AMPC And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many
NASB 1995 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week,
RSV And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week;

You can look the list up at the link I gave.


About the word Confirm:

The word in English to confirm simply means to establish something. eg we were able to confirm the new Senate appointment. Another word is Ratify. We ratified or confirmed the new law.

It can be an older agreement with a new wrinkle or it can be a new agreement.

an older agreement doesn't need confirmation UNLESS SOMETHING NEW IS ADDED. In that case it becomes a new agreement.



Lee Brainard covers the whole subject in depth at length in this video here: Confirm A Covenant — What the Evidence Reveals | Lee Brainard and Lee goes into all the ramifications of the Hebrew term Gabar in ALL the Hebrew experts.



I quote you here:
"The Holy Spirit has shown me that men seek to corrupt the King James Bible and one way they do that is by saying the Hebrew and Greek words have been translated incorrectly."


I can't take your word for that any more than you could take mine for who told me it usually means to create a strong covenant. You claim this is direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. How do you back that up?

I answered you- with my sources. Now I suggest you do the same.



Any good translation of the Bible is able to stand on it's own merits and that there are always those who wish to tear down the Bible in general but to suggest that only the KJV is being torn down is wrong.

ALL GOOD versions have attacks.

But good translations stand the test.

In the end they are TRANSLATIONS only and we still do have the original versions both the Septuagint and the Masoretic texts from which we derive the English Bibles in existence.

The Holy Spirit has shown me that men seek to corrupt the King James Bible and one way they do that is by saying the Hebrew and Greek words have been translated incorrectly. Here are two examples.

The JW's are a major cult and that is exactly what they do. They have gone to great lengths of creating their own Bible which they claim is translated correctly where they say that John 1:1 is correctly translated "the Word was a God", because they don't believe Jesus is God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I HOPE you didn't mean to imply that I'm following the JW's !!!

I attended a Sunday School class at a church where they were teaching Revelation. The teacher claimed that in Revelation 6:4 the Greek word was not sword but dagger. Now think about how dumb that is, someone ridding a horse killing people with a dagger. The teacher claimed "he read a book" where the author he claims is very good said that. Really? He believes some author over the King James Bible?

Again you imply that the English translation of the KJV is more important than the source it comes from. I have no desire to look into that claim, sword and dagger may be the exact same word in Hebrew, and I don't know the teacher, the book he quoted or the context.

So I have learned not to fall for those who claim to know Hebrew and Greek better than those who translated The King James Bible and seek to change the meaning. They act like the translators did not know Hebrew and Greek very well, but they did. The holy Spirit has shown me many places where the King James Bible is correct and newer translations are incorrect.

That is the second time you claim to hear something from the Holy Spirit, without explaining where you get that in the Bible. Extra Biblical revelation is not something I'm prepared to believe because that is exactly how the JW's think and the Mormons and others- they firmly believe they heard revelation from the Holy Spirit, leading away from the Bible.


So are you saying that only the translators of the KJV knew what they were doing?

I hope not, but my time is limited especially today so I have to end it here.

 

[Andy C]

Who told me it usually means to create a strong covenant?

The Bible- Unless you are a KJV only fan, and discount the work of the many translators who have worked on the original to bring it out in such versions as the Amplified (which simply brings out all the possible interpretations and meanings within the original) or many other equally good versions.

If you are KJV ONLY then my answers won't make a difference but it may help others.



Daniel 9:27 - Bible Gateway Lets start here with the full Bible Gateway list of the English versions of the Bible on Dan 9:27

ASV And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week:
AMP And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many
AMPC And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many
NASB 1995 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week,
RSV And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week;

You can look the list up at the link I gave.


About the word Confirm:

The word in English to confirm simply means to establish something. eg we were able to confirm the new Senate appointment. Another word is Ratify. We ratified or confirmed the new law.

It can be an older agreement with a new wrinkle or it can be a new agreement.

an older agreement doesn't need confirmation UNLESS SOMETHING NEW IS ADDED. In that case it becomes a new agreement.

If reading this is difficult Lee Brainard covers the whole subject in depth at length in this video here: Confirm A Covenant — What the Evidence Reveals | Lee Brainard and Lee goes into all the ramifications of the Hebrew term Gabar in ALL the Hebrew experts.



I quote you here:
"The Holy Spirit has shown me that men seek to corrupt the King James Bible and one way they do that is by saying the Hebrew and Greek words have been translated incorrectly."

So I am afraid that I can't take your word for that any more than you could take mine for who told me it usually means to create a strong covenant.

I answered you- with my sources. Now I suggest you do the same.

I would point out that any good translation of the Bible is able to stand on it's own merits and that there are always those who wish to tear down the Bible in general but to suggest that only the KJV is being torn down is wrong. ALL GOOD versions have attacks.

But good translations stand the test.

In the end they are TRANSLATIONS only and we still do have the original versions both the Septuagint and the Masoretic texts from which we derive the English Bibles in existence.







I HOPE you didn't mean to imply that I'm following the JW's !!!






Again you imply that the English translation of the KJV is more important than the source it comes from. I have no desire to look into that claim, sword and dagger may be the exact same word in Hebrew, and I don't know the teacher, the book he quoted or the context.






So are you saying that only the translators of the KJV knew what they were doing?

I hope not, but my time is limited especially today so I have to end it here.

Excellent rebuttal/post sister. As always, I learn much from you!

 

[Goodboy]

Who told me it usually means to create a strong covenant?

The Bible- Unless you are a KJV only fan, and discount the work of the many translators who have worked on the original to bring it out in such versions as the Amplified (which simply brings out all the possible interpretations and meanings within the original) or many other equally good versions.

I showed you what the Hebrew word means at the beginning of my first reply to you, but I will show you again below. You can look it up for yourself if you don't believe me.

gāḇar Meaning - Hebrew Lexicon | Old Testament (KJV)

Study the original meaning of gāḇar in the Bible using the Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version. Discover the audio pronunciation, word origin and usage in the Bible, plus scripture verse references of gāḇar.

www.biblestudytools.com

gâbar (it's meaning)
A primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

Where in the definition does it say "to create a strong covenant"? This has nothing to do with any version of the Bible just what the Hebrew word itself means.

 

[Goodboy]

That is the second time you claim to hear something from the Holy Spirit, without explaining where you get that in the Bible. Extra Biblical revelation is not something I'm prepared to believe because that is exactly how the JW's think and the Mormons and others- they firmly believe they heard revelation from the Holy Spirit, leading away from the Bible.

Doesn't the Holy Spirit speak to you? I am not claiming to be better than anyone else.

I am not asking you to believe me and I have provided scripture. In fact I don't want you to take my word for anything I say as I certainly could be wrong. What I do is lead people to scripture that backs up what I say and let them decide for themselves.

You are the one who brought up the Hebrew word of Gabar. If you look up that Hebrew word you can see what it means. One of the definitions is confirm. I even showed you the English dictionary definition of confirm. So I have not asked you to believe me, I have given you proof that you refuse to acknowledge.

gāḇar Meaning - Hebrew Lexicon | Old Testament (KJV)

Study the original meaning of gāḇar in the Bible using the Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version. Discover the audio pronunciation, word origin and usage in the Bible, plus scripture verse references of gāḇar.

www.biblestudytools.com

Nuff said...

 

[Work4Peanuts]

I am not KJV only, but it is my sword of choice, mostly because I grew up memorizing it, but also because, since it's been around longer, it has more resources, like Strong's concordance.

This is the translation of the word gabar from Strong's:
a primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more strength, strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

Which is, without emphasis, what Goodboy wrote. I honestly could see the translation going either way. If the A/C strengthens a covenant then obviously the covenant was in place beforehand. But if the emphasis is that he prevails a covenant then it could mean that the covenant is being forced upon the Jewish people from a place of power.

Please, let's not argue where the scripture is ambiguous. God undoubtedly has reasons why that particular word was chosen: reasons that will be come apparent when the time has come for its fulfillment.

 

[Margery]

I showed you what the Hebrew word means at the beginning of my first reply to you, but I will show you again below. You can look it up for yourself if you don't believe me.

gāḇar Meaning - Hebrew Lexicon | Old Testament (KJV)

Study the original meaning of gāḇar in the Bible using the Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version. Discover the audio pronunciation, word origin and usage in the Bible, plus scripture verse references of gāḇar.

www.biblestudytools.com

gâbar (it's meaning)
A primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

Where in the definition does it say "to create a strong covenant"? This has nothing to do with any version of the Bible just what the Hebrew word itself means.

I don't disagree with the Hebrew term Gabar. Nor it's definition.

I simply meant that you can't take the English word confirm to mean a pre existing covenant is the only type of covenant by using the word Gabar.

Nor does the English definition of the word confirm mean that it has to be a pre existing covenant.

It can be.

But that is not the only way the word confirm is used.

We confirm a covenant or confirm a choice to the senate or confirm a new law meaning to establish, to put into law, something that is outlined- it can be a new covenant, or a covenant that has been in existence and has had new provisions added to it.



And that is where I have to end it. I am at a complete loss to make myself clear. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Goodboy]

I am not KJV only, but it is my sword of choice, mostly because I grew up memorizing it, but also because, since it's been around longer, it has more resources, like Strong's concordance.

Thanks for verifying that I did not pull the word "confirm" out of thin air!

I never said I was a KJV only person either, that was implied by someone. If you look at some of my post I have also quoted the Contemporary English Version. Sometimes other Bible versions can help one understand what is meant by a passage. I do however personally believe that the KJV is the most accurate, but that is just what I think.

 

[Kaatje]

@Goodboy, @Margery

Don't want to come between the two of you sparring, but still.

I always learned that translating is loosing.
No matter which translation in what language, you will always loose something of the original text.
I will admit, the KJV is a good one (not perfect), but one that is origin-based.
Origin based means that the translators tried to stay as close to the originals as they could.
The downside is, that it is often less easy readable.
An other form of translating is audience-based.
Here the translators try to come as close to the language the reader knows.
This of course makes the translation a bit less close to the orignal scripture.
Anyhow, all that to say NO translation is perfect.

In my (Dutch) translation (HSV) it says: "Hij zal het verbond met velen versterken".
If I translate that literally, is reads: "He shall the covenant with many make-stronger."
You see how difficult translating is?
A good translation would be: He shall make the covenant with many stronger.
And this is just an example of two close related languages.

Back to Gabar. Strong says it's
01396. ‭רבג‭ gabar ‭gaw-bar’‭; a primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently: — exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.‭
‭
In Arabic the word is Agbar.
As in Allah Agbar, meaning Allah is the greater (or the greatest).
So I agree with Goodboy that the best explanation is that the AC will take an existing covenant and confirm it with many.
Now whether the covenant already exists in our day, or not, that remains to be seen.
It could also be that the AC makes a new one, first confirms it with some, and than with many.
I don't know.

Stepping out of the crossfire, but hope to have been of little help.
Blessings to you both.

 

[Goodboy]

Don't want to come between the two of you sparring, but still.

Kaatje,
You are wise beyond your years!
So great to see that you are one of the moderators!!!