A Gap between the Rapture and the Trib?

[Greg]

In my opinion, this isn't a topic to get too hung up on. My biggest concern with assuming no gap at all is that then many people start looking at every potential international agreement as the one in Daniel in an effort to pinpoint the Rapture, and that can lead to all kinds of issues. I think we all agree the Rapture happens by the time of the agreement (or, more properly, perhaps, confirming or strengthening of the agreement), but I think it can happen some amount of time before, and that makes a practical difference in our outlook and maybe what we focus on.

 

[Goodboy]

Can you show me a verse that hints the tribulation immediately follows the rapture?

Look I am not going to keep going back and forth with you as you yourself said it is not important and you only keep bringing it up for fun. If it is just fun, then why are we debating? It is not fun to me.

That said, I already explained to you that if the ONLY reason for the Rapture is to save us from the Tribulation then it makes no sense to have it happen before it is needed. That is the best I can do to answer your question.

 

[Andy C]

Discussions like this one IMO is why we have end times forums, or Christian forums. The flocks are not fed end times in the pews of the churches.

I learn from others daily on this site, and Im not afraid to admit when Im wrong - which has happened to me many times.

Im thankful we are free to discuss/debate/opine….

Iron sharpens iron.

 

[Tall Timbers]

I am not saying that the Rapture has to happen now. For all I know it could be many years from now. So maybe some things do need to happen before the Tribulation

Absolutely. In this thread: What Will We Face Prior to the Rapture?

I brought up things the Bible tells us will happen before the start of Tribulation. Those things may or may not happen before the Rapture.

 

[Tall Timbers]

if the ONLY reason for the Rapture is to save us from the Tribulation

Another reason might be so we're not late for the marriage supper of the lamb.

 

[Andy C]

Absolutely. In this thread: What Will We Face Prior to the Rapture?

I brought up things the Bible tells us will happen before the start of Tribulation. Those things may or may not happen before the Rapture.

Yes, its very clear what has to take place before the start of the tribulation! The closer those signs appear, the closer we are to going home.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Im just excited because we appear to be in the season! Anything else really is fun to chat about, but in the big scheme, totally irrelevant for the church, we wont be here.

I would say that anything and everything that can and will happen in the prophetic timeline up to and just before the beginning of Tribulation is relevant to the Church since we may be here up until that time... until we're called up, of course.

 

[Andy C]

I would say that anything and everything that can and will happen in the prophetic timeline up to and just before the beginning of Tribulation is relevant to the Church since we may be here up until that time... until we're called up, of course.

I was probably not clear, but I meant after the rapture. In other words, I dont lose sleep worrying about the WEF, future OWG…etc.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Well, we may well be here for the one world govmint as that forms prior to Tribulation. The WEF is a thorn in the side now. I won't lose any sleep over those end times developments that we may be here for either. If we're here long enough to see a world govmint christen 10 regional kings it'll be exciting to continue to see things falling into place.

 

[Andy C]

Well, we may well be here for the one world govmint as that forms prior to Tribulation. The WEF is a thorn in the side now. I won't lose any sleep over those end times developments that we may be here for either. If we're here long enough to see a world govmint christen 10 regional kings it'll be exciting to continue to see things falling into place.

You already know I dont believe while the Holy Spirit is here, the OWG will be allowed to fully form - But, I could be wrong…as you have told me over and over through the years. Im a slow learner….

 

[Tall Timbers]

You already know I dont believe while the Holy Spirit is here, the OWG will be allowed to fully form - But, I could be wrong…as you have told me over and over through the years. Im a slow learner….

If that was the case Biblically, then the gap theory would not be theoretical. I hope your thinking on the topic proves correct because there are some things I'd just as soon not be here for... a second diben term for example...

 

[Andy C]

a second diben term for example...

 

[Margery]

Anyone who believes there is no gap, no amount of time between the rapture and the start of the tribulation, answer this question.

If the rapture happens right this second, is there a OWG already in place, right now? If not, how will the AC rise out of the OWG and position himself as the leader who has authority to affirm the treaties? Only this affirming of the treaties start the tribulation.

The rapture is in no way biblically connected with the start of the tribulation (other than the rapture is first). There has to be a gap, maybe its only hours, or days, or weeks, or even months, there will be a gap.

If there is no gap at all, that'll be pretty amazing. Even if everything prophesied to occur before the antichrist and Israel confirm that 7 year covenant is in place/has occurred, the likelihood of some amount of gap would still be very highly probable.

The Rapture would pretty much have to occur at the same time as the meeting when the covenant was being confirmed by the parties and their signatures being put to the document for no gap whatsoever... possible of course... but it isn't hard to imagine a gap of some indeterminate amount of time.

Do you really believe seconds after the rapture, Israel would sign a treaty? The world will be in total chaos with hundreds of millions instantly gone.


As you said, we dont have to agree, and we will both find out at the same time what really happened.

What we have to agree on is the bible nowhere states the Tribulation starts immediately after the rapture - not even a hint.

I completely agree.

There has to be a small gap at the very least.

Nobody signs a covenant with an unproven unknown person guaranteeing the covenant. It would be worthless. Particularly if chaos suddenly breaks out world wide as AndyC points out.



The worth or ability of the person initiating the covenant has to be a proven benefit to the nation of Israel.



For Israel to sign it, expecting a benefit- Israel has to trust that the person proposing that covenant has the POWER TO ENFORCE IT!


Since the words here in 2 Thess 2:6-8a mean that the AC CANNOT be revealed until the proper time AFTER the Rapture.


6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,

It is a VERY clear sequence. The lawless one CANNOT be revealed - and that word is apokalupto which means revealed or uncovered-- until the Holy Spirit's Restraining action working thru the church is taken up out of the way.

Until then this one remains hidden or covered.


That signing of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is also over in Isaiah 28:18

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Isaiah 28:18
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.



THAT COVENANT starts the 7 year countdown. Not the Rapture, but the COVENANT.

Why is that so important if the 2 happened at the exact same time?

Surely everyone would be aware of the Rapture.

They would.

But the covenant will be more memorable because the Bible ties it to the timing of the Tribulation.



The Bible doesn't date the 7 years on the Rapture, instead it dates it on the covenant. The Bible is so emphatic that it says it in many different ways in Revelation so that ALL THE WORLD will be aware of the exact time clock counting down the 7 years.


THAT MEANS that the COVENANT will be equally if not MORE memorable than the Rapture for the world because the Bible uses it to date the end of the Tribulation and even the MIDDLE of the week is tied to that covenant.

SO

That means that the COVENANT has to be a huge event, noted world wide.

Not a back room deal with a nobody that is rising up thru the ranks.

Not some ho hum idiot at the UN announcing some trivial legislation regarding the climate that Israel and everyone else signed onto.

This will have everyone's attention because the Bible assumes that everyone has access to that knowledge of that covenant on that date with Israel.

 

[Goodboy]

One more point regarding the COVENANT. Let's look at the wording in the Bible.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Websters dictionary defines confirm this way.
1) To give approval to: ratify
2) to make firm or firmer : strengthen

Definition of CONFIRM

to give approval to : ratify; to make firm or firmer : strengthen; to administer the rite of confirmation to… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Also, notice the Bible says "the covenant" which implies that it already exists. Otherwise it would say "a covenant".

This means the COVENANT can be in place far before the Antichrist actually signs it. No gap is required.

 

[Hol]

if the ONLY reason for the Rapture is to save us from the Tribulation then it makes no sense to have it happen before it is needed.

Could you help me understand if you think there is another important reason for the timing of the Rapture?

Maybe you're referring to this event:

"In Romans 9 Paul expresses his love for his Jewish brethren (Romans 9:1–5) and recognizes that the covenant promises are to be fulfilled to a specific group of Abraham’s descendants. Paul shows the distinct groups by highlighting God’s choosing of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and affirms that God’s blessing would be for those descendants who believe in the Messiah (Romans 9:33). Salvation would not only be for believing Jews, though, as Gentiles could also call upon the name of the Lord for salvation (Romans 10:12–13). While there are believing Jews and Gentiles, Paul explains that the nation of Israel as a whole has not yet received her Messiah (Romans 10:18—11:10), but they will one day be saved through believing in their Messiah (Romans 11:26).

In the meantime, Paul explains that there is a partial hardening of the nation—that many will refuse the Messiah—until the fullness of the Gentiles occurs. Israel’s hardening will continue until the divinely set number of Gentiles are saved: “Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ” (Romans 11:25, NLT)." copied from Got Questions

Maybe I'm missing something, and I do agree with you that Rapture saves us from God's wrath, but I guess I always thought that there is a trigger for the rapture, we're waiting for the last church age believer, right?

 

[Goodboy]

Maybe I'm missing something, and I do agree with you that Rapture saves us from God's wrath, but I guess I always thought that there is a trigger for the rapture, we're waiting for the last church age believer, right?

I do not think you are missing anything as I agree that the last church believer will be saved before the Rapture is triggered, based on as you stated Romans 11:25 below. That is what I was taught and have no reason to dispute it.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The church I attended use to laughingly tell us to go out and get that last person saved, so we can get Raptured!

 

[Hol]

The timing may quickly shift from the Rapture to the 7-yr confirmation of the deal Israel will make with the devil. Or, there may be some time between. All I think is that satanic forces probably won't know what God and His children will know; that the Church is complete! Satanic forces probably don't know the moment when a person places their faith in Jesus. I guess I'm suggesting that Satan et al. may have things nearly ready (e.g., OWG/treaty), but they can't finalize plans until The Restrainer removes us.

 

[Goodboy]

Some say there is no connection between the Rapture and the Tribulation.

If that is the case, why does the Bible say to watch for the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 5 and to assemble ourselves together much more, as we see the day approaching in Hebrews 10:25 below. We are to look for signs of the Tribulation to know when the Rapture is approaching, as the Rapture itself has no signs. So then there is a connection between the Rapture and the Tribulation, at least regarding the season we are in. What the Bible says is we don't know the day or hour of the Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

We just need to watch!!!

We just need to watch!!! Do you want to know when the Rapture will happen? It is not as complicated as one might think. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord...

christiancommunityforum.com

 

[Margery]

One more point regarding the COVENANT. Let's look at the wording in the Bible.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Websters dictionary defines confirm this way.
1) To give approval to: ratify
2) to make firm or firmer : strengthen

Definition of CONFIRM

to give approval to : ratify; to make firm or firmer : strengthen; to administer the rite of confirmation to… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Also, notice the Bible says "the covenant" which implies that it already exists. Otherwise it would say "a covenant".

This means the COVENANT can be in place far before the Antichrist actually signs it. No gap is required.

The English Bible uses the definite article “the” but it isn’t present in the Hebrew original.

the word confirm in Hebrew is Gabar and it can mean to strengthen a pre existing agreement BUT

it USUALLY just means to create a strong covenant.

I used to think it meant strengthening an existing covenant until I heard that that is not the usual way of understanding the word gabar in this context.

 

[Anastacia]

I really wouldn't be surprised if there was a gap and I wouldnt be surprised if there was not a gap.

Logistically, it does seem to make more sense that the AC will not be poised with pen in hand to sign the covenant at the moment of the rapture... but if he were, and the whole world was paying attention to that covenant and this "amazing man" who comes up out of nowhere (like we saw Obama suddenly become world renowned), then those of us who are watchers will truly have our eyes fixed on the clouds. We would literally know the day, the minute, the second is approaching!!

Something @Andy C has mentioned also makes me think a gap is more likely: that there have been many attempts throughout history to form a world govt and yet God has never let it happen. I would prefer Not to see the OWG so I find that comforting! But on the flip side, I wouldnt be surprised if we do see it come together. That WHO International Health Regulation agreement (official in May '24) could get quite close to rounding up all the world's nations into compliance.

Finally, it seems we should be out of here any time now because it's only since 1948 that the Church and Israel have been existing concurrently. Maybe just a transitory overlap right before the Church Age/Age of Grace closes. And since the rapture doesn't require any prophecies to be fufilled first, I hope we dont have to see all the Trib prep completed before we go!