What to Make of Why Paula White?

[Batman]

She is a VERY dangerous cult leader that is infested in the evangelical world. His friendship, respect, and trust in her is disheartening.

 

[TCC]

I can see both views as being possible, but lean heavily towards rapture

Side note - Arnold Fruchtenbaum is a solid teacher, and has one of the most quoted books in Eschatology, “Footsteps of the Messiah”. Arnold agreed with your position until he read Andy Woods book “The Falling Away”, and subsequently changed his view to align with Woods.

I feel cheated. I met Arnold and tried to sell him on my first seal view. But he would not buy it...lol. I guess my the change agent focus should be to target Andy. Gotta make plans now for a Texas trip.

 

[TCC]

She is a VERY dangerous cult leader that is infested in the evangelical world. His friendship, respect, and trust in her is disheartening.

Amen. There is a documentary that came out about 9 months ago that is pretty good. And gives sober backbone to even what my hopes for America might be.

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incidentally, one consideration I would have strange double takes on all over the place is that if my 1st seal view has any merit, it would seem to share a space with NAR. In general, I am of the view that each denomination will see end times progressing in their views. We will each see what we lean toward believing. But the outcome of course, where NAR is concerned, won't be that the church occupies the 7 mountains to bring back Christ with no tribulation in sight. But as far as they are concerned, it would seem that what would be a potential is that NAR would think their prophesies are coming true if my 1st seal view has any merit. Even though I see those two as two very different things...the overlap is kind of discusting in my end time parlance. Blessings.

 

[TCC]

A

Thread 'SECOND THESSALONIANS 2:3A – SPIRITUAL OR PHYSICAL DEPARTURE? Andy Woods'

Feb 16, 2025

I found this PDF link to Andy Woods short book on the topic.

Approx 15 minute read laying out with scripture why he believes it’s the rapture, not a spiritual falling away

From his book:

The Background

Perhaps one of the most enigmatic Bible verses in all the Scripture is found in
Second Thessalonians 2:3, which says, “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day
will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of
perdition” (NKJV). The Apostle Paul had on his second missionary journey planted the
church in Thessalonica. Within less than a...

• Andy C

• 

I believe actually "falling away" in 2 Thes 2 could be both a rapture and a departure from the faith. I also believe, as in the Hebrew mind prophesy = pattern. The ultimate sense of apostasy would be nearing the second half. Because the way 2 Thes 2 tracks, to me, would be the man of lawlessness revealed "as" the one who demands worship at the midpoint. Otherwise, if the church is gone, who is the man of lawlessness being revealed to? The angels? The world won't notice. Nor would it want to. Blessings.

 

[Margery]

I believe actually "falling away" in 2 Thes 2 could be both a rapture and a departure from the faith. I also believe, as in the Hebrew mind prophesy = pattern. The ultimate sense of apostasy would be nearing the second half. Because the way 2 Thes 2 tracks, to me, would be the man of lawlessness revealed "as" the one who demands worship at the midpoint. Otherwise, if the church is gone, who is the man of lawlessness being revealed to? The angels? The world won't notice. Nor would it want to. Blessings.

That's my take too- both rapture AND apostasy - as departure from the faith. No reason Paul couldn't have used a double meaning in that word. In fact if both apply that covers the entire church situation- Some who aren't apostate are raptured, while some who are apostate but saved, are raptured and the ones that are Christian in name only will be finding themselves left behind, and realizing they need to get saved or else.

The church as a whole is drifting into apostasy, which is expected from other passages that deal only with that form of the word. It is the end of the church age, the Laodicean era.

Similar to when Jesus came the first time- apostasy was so rampant that only a few shepherds, some gentile Wise Men and 2 faithful people in the Temple were aware that the Messiah had arrived. The religious leaders Herod consulted were well aware that Bethlehem was the place but they couldn't be bothered to move themselves over there to see for themselves. By the time of Palm Sunday, Jesus says that they SHOULD have known the time of their visitation- because that day was the fulfillment of Daniel's time prophecy - the very day He showed up on Palm Sunday.

Just from that pattern alone, we can expect apostasy. Like you said, Pattern is Prophecy to the Hebrew mindset.

Here's where I will differ with you though.

At that midpoint, the man of lawlessness being revealed, in the Temple- he is revealed to the Jews first and foremost. The Gentile believers who come to faith after the Rapture around the world will be aware, no doubt as this is one of the Time Stamps of the Tribulation that can be used to predict the day Christ will return.

The church is gone, the believers that remain are now primarily Jewish in nature. Not to say there won't be a lot of gentiles, but God's focus is now back on the Jews. Lee Brainard made a point a while ago, that the Temple in Jerusalem, is God's Temple, the Jews are back in there sacrificing. If it wasn't God's Temple, he could desecrate it to his heart's content, and it wouldn't matter.

But Satan and the AC want to be sure to desecrate what is God's so the Temple is their focus.

The man of lawlessness is being REVEALED TO THE JEWS! The ones who believe in Jesus, and the majority who either sit on the fence about Jesus, or who reject Him.

When Jesus predicts this in the Olivet discourse, He is speaking to the Jewish people of that day- reminding THEM to get out when they see this sign.

So the sign is to the JEWS! They will notice, and of course the gentile believers around the world because everyone who believes Jesus will be laser focused on this event as a time stamp to tell when the Trib will finish.

 

[TCC]

That's my take too- both rapture AND apostasy - as departure from the faith. No reason Paul couldn't have used a double meaning in that word. In fact if both apply that covers the entire church situation- Some who aren't apostate are raptured, while some who are apostate but saved, are raptured and the ones that are Christian in name only will be finding themselves left behind, and realizing they need to get saved or else.

The church as a whole is drifting into apostasy, which is expected from other passages that deal only with that form of the word. It is the end of the church age, the Laodicean era.

Similar to when Jesus came the first time- apostasy was so rampant that only a few shepherds, some gentile Wise Men and 2 faithful people in the Temple were aware that the Messiah had arrived. The religious leaders Herod consulted were well aware that Bethlehem was the place but they couldn't be bothered to move themselves over there to see for themselves. By the time of Palm Sunday, Jesus says that they SHOULD have known the time of their visitation- because that day was the fulfillment of Daniel's time prophecy - the very day He showed up on Palm Sunday.

Just from that pattern alone, we can expect apostasy. Like you said, Pattern is Prophecy to the Hebrew mindset.

Here's where I will differ with you though.

At that midpoint, the man of lawlessness being revealed, in the Temple- he is revealed to the Jews first and foremost. The Gentile believers who come to faith after the Rapture around the world will be aware, no doubt as this is one of the Time Stamps of the Tribulation that can be used to predict the day Christ will return.

The church is gone, the believers that remain are now primarily Jewish in nature. Not to say there won't be a lot of gentiles, but God's focus is now back on the Jews. Lee Brainard made a point a while ago, that the Temple in Jerusalem, is God's Temple, the Jews are back in there sacrificing. If it wasn't God's Temple, he could desecrate it to his heart's content, and it wouldn't matter.

But Satan and the AC want to be sure to desecrate what is God's so the Temple is their focus.

The man of lawlessness is being REVEALED TO THE JEWS! The ones who believe in Jesus, and the majority who either sit on the fence about Jesus, or who reject Him.

When Jesus predicts this in the Olivet discourse, He is speaking to the Jewish people of that day- reminding THEM to get out when they see this sign.

So the sign is to the JEWS! They will notice, and of course the gentile believers around the world because everyone who believes Jesus will be laser focused on this event as a time stamp to tell when the Trib will finish.

Thanks Margery. You make a good point about those who will become saints in the trib early period. Wow spending the next 3.5 years watching that develop...lol. Talk about surreal...lol. Excellent point. Although it could mean reveal at the point the man of lawlessness starts, the AC dipicted in Matthew and Mark highlights is always at the midpoint. Not the time he starts out. But to your credit dear sister, Thessaloniki was primarily a gentile area church. With such language of share (aside from the 144k) the first half of the tribulation will likely wake up a lot of gentiles. And since those books to that church reveal the revealing of the man of lawlessness in a context (although it could be argued that context is the midpoint to end point also shared in that book), their context, perhaps it does wink at the notion. Regardless, yeah, being an early tribulation gentile believer will be something else...lol...for sure. Like getting past the stage of, "Wow, how come everything just keeps getting weirder and scarier? Like...every day? I mean, come on!!!" And then the aha moment...wow. Blessings.