US includes Trumps entire 20 point peace plan into a UN resolution establishing "a credible path to Palestinian Statehood"

[Margery]

That's a very good thing.

I agree. (military aid)

It frees both Israel and the USA to pursue their own interests, while remaining friends. Nobody is forced into anything once that tie is cut.

The Military Industrial guys are the only net losers by this separation, and it depends on how competitive their pricing is- because once Israel is free to shop around they are not a captive market.

The US taxpayer and Israel both win in the long run. Because forcing that military aid, which can only be spent in one place - creates a fixed price structure that can balloon upwards becoming a bad bargain for the tax payer and for Israel.

That removes the last real incentive for Israel to have to take orders from the US as to it's borders, attacks on enemies inside Israel and outside and it frees BOTH countries up to cooperate on anything of mutual interest like taking out the nukes again in Iran (which seem to be bouncing back) without having any strings attached to either country.

 

[Tall Timbers]

The US taxpayer and Israel both win in the long run. Because forcing that military aid, which can only be spent in one place - creates a fixed price structure that can balloon upwards becoming a bad bargain for the tax payer and for Israel.

I suspect they'll grow their own defense industry. Israel and the USA may still work together in some research and development, and Israel may continue to source US fighter jets simply because they are far and away the best in the world. It might be cost effective to continue purchasing US fighters.

 

[Margery]

I suspect they'll grow their own defense industry. Israel and the USA may still work together in some research and development, and Israel may continue to source US fighter jets simply because they are far and away the best in the world. It might be cost effective to continue purchasing US fighters.

I figure they will too. A habit of cooperation between them both won't stop easily, nor does it make sense to take jets for example that Israel has a fleet of, with parts etc and trained pilots, to suddenly drop it in favour of a new manufacturer. Plus things I remember hearing in the past were that Israel often made fixes and modifications that made the jets more useful and they shared that knowledge much as they share intelligence data that benefits the US.

Cutting the ties simply means that the manufacturers of the jets might have to get creative with their prices as I suspect Israel will be in the mood to bargain when they are now free to explore options.

Even if I want a Ford, and am on the lot intending to buy a Ford, I may explain I was looking at an equivalent or similar GM down the block at a better price. Or explain I need time to think, and "think" for about a week just before month end, then show up with an offer.

 

[Margery]

JNS (the news service Caroline Glick was part of before she retired to go work for Netanyahu as an advisor) had a really good article explaining the costs and benefits of that aid to both countries and explaining the possible ways forward as Israel cuts that tie. great article

https://www.jns.org/begin-reducing-us-aid-to-israel-not-extending-it/

the conclusion reads this way:

"Nor would it be in its interests to do so since having a superpower friend—and there is no possible desirable alternative to the U.S. alliance—is essential to maintaining its security in a world where so many nations and people want to kill Jews and destroy their state. Yet reducing that dependence to the extent that it is possible is vital for maintaining that alliance in the long run.


Netanyahu knows this as well as anyone.


In 1996, during his first term as prime minister, he told a joint session of the U.S. Congress that he wanted to reduce American aid and eliminate the economic element—as opposed to the military portion—of the assistance. To his credit, he was able to do just that.


His next challenge is to reduce the U.S. aid package, rather than to enlarge and extend it.


That goes against every instinct of the Israeli military establishment, which is dependent on all those American arms and ammunition. It’s equally true that the Americans, even the Obama staffers who negotiated the last long-term aid deal, like to keep the Israelis on a short leash. Going back to the first Bush administration in the 1980s, the Americans have been less than enthusiastic about the Israelis manufacturing arms that could also be made in the United States.


If Israel is to remain secure and maintain a healthy relationship with the United States, then this must change in the long term. The United States needs a partner in the Middle East, not a vassal or a protectorate. The more independent the Jewish state can be, the more solid its alliance with America will become."

 

[Almost Heaven]

Israeli officials have begun weighing significant changes to the long-standing framework of American security assistance, which for decades has formed a central pillar of defense ties between Jerusalem and Washington. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has also hinted on Thursday that he intends to reduce Israel's reliance on US security aid, saying "The direction is much greater independence. I expect to have something to say about this soon."

For the past 50 years, since the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the US has transferred several billion dollars annually to Israel for defense needs. In the early years, Israel had considerable freedom in how to use these funds. Over the past decade, however, nearly the entire annual sum – roughly $3.8 billion – has been designated exclusively for purchases from the American defense industry, according to the terms of the existing agreement.

As global weapons development evolves, Israel's economy has rapidly strengthened, and criticism within the US of the current aid structure has grown. Against this backdrop, Israeli officials are increasingly open to rethinking the arrangement. A source familiar with the discussions told Israel Hayom that debates are underway in both the Israeli defense and diplomatic establishments regarding what form future American assistance should take.

US administration officials and pro-Israel members of Congress have recently asked Israel's ambassador in Washington, Yehiel Leiter, whether Israel seeks to renew the aid package. They are seeking clarity because the current agreement expires in 2028, and both sides want to avoid a gap by beginning negotiations on a new framework now

Israel confirms it is examining alternatives to US security aid

In the past decade, the funds the US has transferred to Israel have been directed mainly toward security needs. However, under the current agreement, the

www.israelhayom.com

 

[Margery]

Everything we see here happening pertains to prophecy. I want to do a quick study of Ezek 38 & 39 because I think if God allows this situation to continue we might be seeing the set up for Ezek 38 and 39- Israel standing alone, in peace and safety inside Israel, in a prosperous condition. Without allies. Without belief in God. ON the mountains of Israel, aka Judea and Samaria aka the "west bank".

It is sad to see the US now calling for a 2 state solution (again in Gaza with the same sort of "safeguards" that allowed Gaza of August 2005 turn into Oct 7, 2023 18 years later) This is now just over 20 years later and it's happening again. President Trump stating over and over that he will not "allow" Israel to annex their own territory in Judea and Samaria that the world calls the west bank. Leaving Israel with the "suicide" borders that Obama wanted.

Except God is for Israel though the whole world turns against her. And God will make them both safe AND prosperous inside their own land --those mountains of Israel that run north south along the Jordan river valley that make up much of Judea and Samaria aka the "west bank"!

God is preparing for judgment to fall on all those nations (see Ezek 39:21) opposing Israel in the Ezek 38 & 39 invasion. Which is all the nations. Not a single one stands for Israel. They turn their backs as she is invaded by Gog of Magog and the other invaders.

Which means we may yet see the nations ALL against Israel, trying to divide her land at the UN, not allowing her to defend herself, not standing with Israel! We've seen some of that over the years, but usually Israel can count on the support of the US against the UN.

ALL the nations, even the former supporters of Israel (the western democracies and the USA) going their separate ways at some point before Ezek 38 takes place. Uncoupled from alliances and defence pacts with Israel.

I always thought it would be the Rapture that had the US pull away from Israel but we might be here to see Israel break that tie and rise up and stand on her own in her own borders without anyone's assistance. Because God is speaking to Israel even now to trust in HIM and HIM ALONE.

We might see God's hand moving to make Israel stand up a mighty army on their feet, not on someone else's feet. Their feet.

That will be AWESOME!


Israel must stand alone against the nations- without friends or allies - yet still standing at the time of Ezek 38. (obviously they have armaments and have used those recently as of Ezek 38 which states they came back from a war) see Ezek 38:8

Israel living in peace and security in the area of the "west bank" aka Judea and Samaria- at the time of Ezek 38 (in spite of Trump insisting that Israel will never annex the "west bank"). Ezek 38: 8, 11

8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

11 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.


Nobody stands for Israel not even the ones who question the invasion. Their question relates to financial motives as shown in verses 12&13. They don't do anything to help.


In Ezek 38 we see the primary purpose of God in Ezek 38 and 39 is to show Israel and "the nations" (everybody else) that HE IS GOD

verses about the nations: chapter 38: 16, 23 show God's purposes towards them regarding knowing Him that HE IS God (I'm leaving out verses on his wrath and judgment on them) and in chapter 39: 6, part of v 7, 21, 23, & 27.

verses about Israel's belief in God 38: none. This is interesting because the above verses also show that nobody in the Gentiles knows God at this point. This is a conspicuous lack- suggesting that in the days before the Ezek 38 invasion those who know God among the Gentiles and the Jews ie the Christians are GONE.

God's ISRAEL Plan for her belief as a result of all this IS seen in EZEK 39 though

Chapter 39 - look at verse 7: “‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel.

THIS is God's purpose in this for Israel. It doesn't say that the nations (gentiles) or even Israel will know God personally, but that they will know that HE is GOD

Chapter 39: 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I display my glory will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign Lord.

So here we see that the day this happens will be a day to remember. Doesn't talk about belief yet. V 7 God makes Himself known to His people, V 13 they are going to remember this day.



Ezek 39:22 From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God.

From that day on, Israel knows that He is their God- doesn't imply a salvation personal relationship just a knowledge that HE is GOD, their God, showing up in this circumstance.

Jews will become believers from the moment of the Rapture on thru to the end of the Tribulation, (just as Gentile believers will) but this refers to the process where they come to understand that the LORD is their God, and HE is the one who saved them from destruction on the day of Ezek 38/39- so this looks like the dawning of belief from this day forward.



A bit more about God's purpose in refining Israel as gold and silver are refined.

Look at Zech 13:8-9 for a bit more about that process and it takes time. 2/3 of the Jews will die, but 1/3 will come thru who call on HIS NAME

8 In the whole land,” declares the Lord,
“two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.

9 This third I will put into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are my people,’
and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”



Compare that to Ezek 39: 21-29 because this sums up the whole purpose of Ezek 38 & 39 after the day of Ezek 38 on thru the Tribulation period to the very end when Jesus comes back.

21&22 compare and contrast the nations versus the Jews knowing God- God displays His glory among the nations who see the punishment He inflicts on them, the nations. But v 22 says FROM THAT DAY FORWARD the people of Israel know that "I am The Lord their God".

Looking closely at v 23 &24 the nations know that God was behind the Jewish exile, due to the sin of Israel. The implication is that God will punish sin- that there is no excuse now for not knowing who God is, and worshipping HIM.

But here comes the THEREFORE word in 25 - meaning because of this God will restore the fortunes of Jacob and has COMPASSION ON ALL ISRAEL

PLEASE DON'T IGNORE VS 26- this relates back to the living in safety in their land, echoing the preconditions that were in place in Ezek 38 BEFORE the invasion. They were living in a state of unfaithfulness, not acknowledging God, THEIR God! Who made them live unafraid. I think we are about to watch as God places them in their own land, (which means Judea and Samaria, those mountains of Israel, currently called the West Bank) unafraid, but still in unbelief. That is the major pre condition for Ezek 38.

Vs 27, 29 and 29 refer to the END of this process when Israel is fully regathered as only God can do, not leaving any behind- this is going to take a supernatural regathering otherwise there would be stragglers. These verses from 21-29 summarize the whole process of Ezek 38, the Tribulation period right up to the Sheep and Goat judgment.

21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them.

22 From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God.

23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword.

24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.


25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name.

26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid.



27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations.

28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.

29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”



We go down a bit further to find the salvation of Israel at the end.

Ezek 39: 27-29 Look for the time stamp word "WHEN"

27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.

29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”




Something to note here- Look for the regathering of Israel. NOT LEAVING ANY BEHIND. I think this looks like the end of the Tribulation when the Messiah comes back, and gathers the sheep and goats at the end of the Tribulation.

There will be the believing Jews who cried out for their Messiah to come back and deliver them whose call brings Jesus back to end the Tribulation. The Jews will largely be gathered in Israel but not all. The final regathering is a complete regathering of the Jews from everywhere they were scattered.

Because in that sheep and goats judgment Jesus talks about those who helped his brothers and sisters- and that is generally considered to be HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL, the Jews. Which suggests that some Jews are still scattered among the Gentile nations.

The Gentile Christian believers of the Tribulation will be helping the Jews, not trying to annihilate them as the AC and his followers want to do.

The believing Jews and Gentiles will enter the Kingdom.



If we are seeing something relating to the situation we see in Ezek 38 starting soon, we are seeing a process that takes Israel thru to the very end of the Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.

Footsteps of the Messiah!

Don't mourn, or grieve but rejoice that the time is coming close. We can't stop the events from happening, our redemption draws near.

Maranatha!

 

[Andiamo]

Kushner.

 

[TCC]

Id just like to say that some posts in this thread make my posts seem very short

Truly fascinating reading through all of this, really. Thanks @Magery for the articles and details. There is a conversation I had on another thread where it was pointed out that there is no mention at all of Israel suffering in the Ez 38 War. And some might view it as the only ones injured at all in that war are Israel's assaulters. Would this be a position you take? Or how might you see it? Forgive me if I have asked this before.

. . . . .

In blessed by the zeal and insight. I'm blessed by the level at which we are willing and open to look at things. I am blessed too to be a part of this thread. For a while there it was looking like Israel might become a one state solution.

As I guess somewhat per usual, I see all this a little differently. I am encouraged believers side with Israel. And via the Abrahamic Covenant I understand why. But I do differ regarding a two-state solution. Personally, I am not as against one because we don't know how God is or is not using that for Israeli chastisement or correction. Removing what else we might think upon it as being possibly.

So if Trump is not allowing annexation and somehow Israel is going by that, what that says to me is far more a thing about America than Israel or Islam. To me that just registers as to what mantle of power and influence the US has in this. And from what I have seen, that is an important feature because there are huge media waves that see Israel owing America. If for no other reason than to see that record straight it would make sense to take note of how America has so much power in this. Like a heads up puzzle piece or something.

The other thing is that I do understand, empathisize, and actually share in (to the degree I can) the favor evangelical Christianity has toward Israel. I believe that is right and honorable. But I guess what I can not really get use to is the either/or aspect to it. Yes, Israel was chosen to be His people and the line for Messiah. And Yes they are honored in this way uniquely. But when looking at the middle east and political events and prophesy I don't see Palestine the same as this thread in general leans.

As much as Israel being back as a country is a huge prophetic billboard, in a similar way I see the Abraham Accords as divine honor for the line of Hagar, the one who named God due to His incredible intimacy toward her. And blessing of promise toward her line. I don't think God sees the Arab/Palestinian world the same as we might though. Being their creator too He has given them massive power influence and wealth as an Arab people. This too is His blessing.

Sure God is not for terror. And unfortunately the Palestianian people are suckered into influence of terror. But if there is a real people group there with real children, moms and dads, grandparents etc...and they are "a people," I would suggest that the imposition of a two-state solution might be just as much God's will for testimony and statement of His purposes as would the promised land to Israel. For example I would see a two-state solution as a testimony as to the Arab world--like the Accords suggest "if they are open" that the God that uses gentile Arab protection toward Israel is the same God that had Messiah come through Israel. I'm just saying thought that God's will for a two-state solution now might be for Israel's discipline and the Arab worlds attraction to the real, not Islamic God. And I think its ok to see it that way though I think though, am I right?

God's will is NOT for Israel to have all their land right now--that land is much more than they have today. I don't think Israel gaining the borders promised is for right now though. Biblically Israel will not get all of their land now. We know this. So it just makes sense God would use this time to extend an echo beyond Hagar to the Arab people as much as to Israel. And I believe that even though His promise to Israel as His choice of people use and lineage is greater than that toward the gentile world (including Arabs), to me that is more like divine propagative beyond like a potential favoritism which He has shown in James to be against. I'm likely the odd one out here but I think a two-state solution is kind of what we have been arguing in the age of grace since Israel has been back. It becomes a one state solution under the 1,000 year reign. So if Israel got that now, I would say they are cheating on their messiah whom they don't believe in anyway...lol. That sounded really bad but funny. Gotta admit. I am just trying to help introduce hopefully a broader healthy (hopefully biblical) perspective that transcends perhaps some of the limitations in place when the ground zero theater of God is merely viewed as a battle between Jew and Arab. The acoutaments of our end time age I think demands far more. Just saying.

I'm not sure if this is a way of thinking that makes sense. But I just think we can tend to put a bit too much on what we think God will do with Israel these days (or even should do according to His own word). Or if Israel gets a two-state solution somehow we have the inside track of how that is suppose to look. I mean, I understand why we tend to do it. But I'm perfectly fine with Palestinian people having their own state smack dab right in the midst of Israel...lol. This may sound bizarre or anathama. And I don't say it to cause a stir. I just say it because it seems the right thing to say. There is "absolutely" no way God is going to give Israel all of their land promised today. We know that and we know why. If we use those sound and reasonable ways of thinking about this, the Abraham Accords can mean so much beyond something we see as for the AC. I would stress instead the Abraham Accords are likely God's allowance for the Arab world to consider Him. But we don't hear that. We hear its for the AC. Perhaps even eclipsing God's intented heart toward the Arab world and being perhaps more moved by what the AC may have to do with it. Whether we see the Abraham Accords as to the glory of God or not may not be a thing. We will see things as we do. But its just that if the Abraham Accords aligns with a Hagar echo to the Arab world, truncating it to the the event the AC gets all up in it later somehow, to me evidences a potential taking of focus off of the majesty of God in the way we might potentially otherwise see it. I don't know, does this sound crazy? To me it just makes simple sense though.

I know our times are thrilling and way over the top. And America is known over the decades as a not so trustworthy (Imperialistic Britain 2.0) entity unto the world. But what if Trump not allowing annexation and wants a path to Palistianian state be actually literally "the will of God?" We could argue why that is not possible. But if it is, what we think about that matters far less. But what we could see, as God often acts independent of our views and perspectives, could be heart melting glorious rea-time movements of Him in our age of grace times perhaps.

. . . . .

In any event, this is the shorter version...lol...of what I wanted to say. But you guys I am super blessed by the level of discussion and insight. And really blessed @Margery for your bringing all this content to the table. its really a wonderful place to spend end times. The reason I believe the above is important to note is not because I am board and lets have a food fight. Really, I think it matters because from what I have seen: Irony is the end time Superhero. And heavy doses of BIAS (which can come in so many colors, flavors, and shapes) be the SuperVillan. I believe from what we all have seen end times is not as straight forward as we thought. At first it was like running in slow motion under water when we thought it would be a sudden terror. Instead we learn that globalism has haunted our souls and eroded our nationalist sensiblies right from under us. And now we are at a place where all the creeper sick and criminal mind notions have kind of become our country. Waking up one day wonder who let that dog in the house 60 or so + years ago? Waking up to what would under normal circumstances be: Far too late to do anything about it. And what if in our age we get to see the hand of God object to that...as a before Lord's Supper Kingdom Dinner Mint. Blessings.

 

[Margery]

Kushner.

About Kushner and his friends. MBS, Witkoff and the others who are making money from Qatar and working with Qatar etc on this plan for Israel, without Israel's permission to create a new sovereign state of "Palestine" within Israel's borders. Not going to go well for him and the others. In fact some reports indicate that a lot of this current 20 point plan borrows from the original plan in Jan of 2020- only this time instead of "granting" Israel the rights to a lot of the West Bank, while giving other bits away forever, this time Trump insists that Israel isn't allowed to annex any of the West Bank (Judea and Samaria aka the mountains of Israel)


Time will tell if God allows this to go forward to create a new "Palestinian State" by the US, the UN, Saudia Arabia, Qatar, France, Russia, Turkey, Syria and others.

If we see it happen before the Rapture, we will see trouble come as a result. It pays to remember 911, Katrina and Covid weren't judgments, but warnings. Warnings - to wake people up. They are a mercy by God. But ignore warning signals at our peril. Keep going and it'll be the real judgments of God.


Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


The nations face a choice- what do they do about Israel? The UN is constantly harping on Israel, the bulk of their rulings are against Israel, while other far bigger problems are ignored.

And one by one the nations fail. Every nation that blesses Israel has been blessed. That means that every nation that curses Israel (and dividing their land is a curse because it's saying God didn't know what He was doing, giving that land to Israel) will face a curse from God.

And one by one the nations pile up judgment to come as they ignore the warnings and go ahead and divide that land that doesn't belong to them, giving it to people that God didn't give it to.

What happens when we stop listening to the warnings- not judgments, just warnings?

Like Hurricane Katrina (when Bush gave away Gaza) and 911 (When Bush had a deal for a 2 State plan documented by Bill Koenig, with the Saudi Prince the night before 911- which blew up with the towers) both disasters linked to dividing the land.

Or how about Covid in 2020 that came right after that first Trump Peace plan came out (designed by Kushner with his friend the Saudi Crown Prince), giving some of the "West Bank" away while keeping a lot for Israel.

That was then. Now Israel is losing GAZA again, AND they aren't "allowed" to annex the West Bank.



Perhaps the bulk of judgment comes due when our nations all turn our backs on Israel as they face invasion in Ezek 38 and 39.

Ezek 39: 6 I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord.

Ezek 39: 21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them.

That was the starter- when the Ezek 38 coalition invades Israel, and the other nations turn their backs and offer no support.


And then the Tribulation. When all the nations gather to invade Jerusalem. (Ezek 38 it's the land, Zech 2 explains that in the Tribulation at the end, it's Jerusalem) That progression is interesting. All the stuff in the Tribulation either turns the Trib saints (Jew and Gentile) towards God or hardens their hearts and Jerusalem is the epicentre of that hatred of God.

Zech 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

This ends well for Israel- at the end of the Tribulation when the Messiah comes back. He destroys the invaders and all those who don't serve Him.

We are out of here at some point before the Tribulation because we are part of Christ's body here on earth, and God already poured out His judgment once for all time onto His own perfect Son in our place. We don't come under that judgment because Christ already paid that in full on our behalf.

He paid our debts for all who call on the name of the Lord Jesus to be saved.

At some point we get Raptured up and out of here, and the true Judgment begins.

 

[Margery]

unfortunately the Palestianian people are suckered into influence of terror. But if there is a real people group there with real children, moms and dads, grandparents etc...and they are "a people," I would suggest that the imposition of a two-state solution might be just as much God's will for testimony and statement of His purposes as would the promised land to Israel.

No.

They have land and blessings in the areas given to Ishmael (of Hagar) as well as Esau (Jordan), and Lot's sons by his daughters (Jordan).

Most of them are descendants of those moved into the area now known as Israel (including the "west bank") during the years after the first Zionists began arriving in the 1890s. Before that the land was pretty desolate with few inhabitants (some of whom were still Jewish btw) as Mark Twain observed in Innocents Abroad when he toured the area including Jerusalem.

The Ottoman occupation had been brutal- they taxed the trees, so those were chopped down, resulting in desertification increasing over the centuries. NOT much lived there including plants.

Until the Jews began coming back. As God promised (do a search, look it up) the desert began to bloom as He turned their hearts to come back to their land.

But as the Jews began to prosper, local Arabs from Jordan (Esau and Lot's descendants mixed with some of Ishmael and the sons of Abraham born after Sarah died), Gaza got a lot of Egyptians, Bedouin tribes moved in, and Syrian, Lebanese and others from Iraq joined in.

As they came they began to slaughter the Jews - a huge massacre in Hebron in the 20s and others. They began to create a story - the grand mufti of Jerusalem Yasser Arafats uncle- fabricated a story about Mohammed going up from the Temple site to heaven making it the "3rd holiest site in Islam". That was begun around the 20s.

The arabs including that grand mufti worked WITH Hitler on a plan to murder all the Jews in Israel that escaped from Hitler's "final solution".

You should know that Britain didn't allow the escapees into what was then called Palestine during the period between the wars after the Ottoman empire died. In spite of the Balfour declaration (look it up) and the San Remo thing (look that up) both of which I mentioned up thread that give the Jews a homeland that btw INCLUDED ALL OF WHAT IS NOW JORDAN.

You see God DID have mercy on the arabs. They WERE given the larger share of Israel- it's called JORDAN! That IS "Palestine"

But because of their ancient hatred (look that up in the Bible, it's in Obadiah I think, one of the prophets dealing with the descendants of Esau) they refuse to be satisfied so when Israel became a nation in 1i948 they invaded.

Egypt took Gaza and Jordan took the "West Bank".

Israel regained these areas in 67 and at different points, also the Golan Heights region (northern kingdom of Samaria) and will gain more in future.

But at no point does God give that land to any but the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

That land promise is given down thru those lines, to those particular descendants and God calls Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The descendants of Abraham outside that line, have no claim on that land and if you look at the size of the Arab lands around Israel and Israel's size you can see that God blessed them in their own places with wealth and land.

There is no need to go after the sliver He gave to the Jews.

Those people have a choice: Go with God's blessing and bless Israel (don't claim it, but live in peace inside Israel as many do) or go with the curse that comes on those who chant

"from the river to the sea, Palestine, will be free"

The River is Jordan
The Sea is the Med.

The bit in between is what they want. ALL OF IT

They don't want a 2 State solution, that is wishful thinking of Western politicians.

They want ALL of it.


and these people, tortured the prisoners in Gaza within their homes. The people of Gaza ARE Hamas. They ARE the ones who teach their children how best to kill Jews, how to conduct knife attacks. Kiddie shows on tv in Gaza show how and the teach the kids that will ensure that Allah is pleased and they get to go to "heaven" by murdering, raping and butchering Jews.

Giving them even a part of Israel is rewarding the horrors they've done to the Jews since the 1890s.

Israel belongs to the sons and daughters of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Andiamo]

Couldn’t the proposed military base eventually be used as enforcer and even a protector of this Palestinian state?

This is just awful.
insanity: insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

[Andiamo]

So what happened to Pres Trump’s “Middle East Riviera?” Will we reward the Palestinians with this…for voting in Hamas, viciously hating Jews and indoctrinating their children to hate Jews from birth, and supporting terrorism in every conceivable way?

 

[dwb]

No.

They have land and blessings in the areas given to Ishmael (of Hagar) as well as Esau (Jordan), and Lot's sons by his daughters (Jordan).

Most of them are descendants of those moved into the area now known as Israel (including the "west bank") during the years after the first Zionists began arriving in the 1890s. Before that the land was pretty desolate with few inhabitants (some of whom were still Jewish btw) as Mark Twain observed in Innocents Abroad when he toured the area including Jerusalem.

The Ottoman occupation had been brutal- they taxed the trees, so those were chopped down, resulting in desertification increasing over the centuries. NOT much lived there including plants.

Until the Jews began coming back. As God promised (do a search, look it up) the desert began to bloom as He turned their hearts to come back to their land.

But as the Jews began to prosper, local Arabs from Jordan (Esau and Lot's descendants mixed with some of Ishmael and the sons of Abraham born after Sarah died), Gaza got a lot of Egyptians, Bedouin tribes moved in, and Syrian, Lebanese and others from Iraq joined in.

As they came they began to slaughter the Jews - a huge massacre in Hebron in the 20s and others. They began to create a story - the grand mufti of Jerusalem Yasser Arafats uncle- fabricated a story about Mohammed going up from the Temple site to heaven making it the "3rd holiest site in Islam". That was begun around the 20s.

The arabs including that grand mufti worked WITH Hitler on a plan to murder all the Jews in Israel that escaped from Hitler's "final solution".

You should know that Britain didn't allow the escapees into what was then called Palestine during the period between the wars after the Ottoman empire died. In spite of the Balfour declaration (look it up) and the San Remo thing (look that up) both of which I mentioned up thread that give the Jews a homeland that btw INCLUDED ALL OF WHAT IS NOW JORDAN.

You see God DID have mercy on the arabs. They WERE given the larger share of Israel- it's called JORDAN! That IS "Palestine"

But because of their ancient hatred (look that up in the Bible, it's in Obadiah I think, one of the prophets dealing with the descendants of Esau) they refuse to be satisfied so when Israel became a nation in 1i948 they invaded.

Egypt took Gaza and Jordan took the "West Bank".

Israel regained these areas in 67 and at different points, also the Golan Heights region (northern kingdom of Samaria) and will gain more in future.

But at no point does God give that land to any but the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

That land promise is given down thru those lines, to those particular descendants and God calls Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The descendants of Abraham outside that line, have no claim on that land and if you look at the size of the Arab lands around Israel and Israel's size you can see that God blessed them in their own places with wealth and land.

There is no need to go after the sliver He gave to the Jews.

Those people have a choice: Go with God's blessing and bless Israel (don't claim it, but live in peace inside Israel as many do) or go with the curse that comes on those who chant

"from the river to the sea, Palestine, will be free"

The River is Jordan
The Sea is the Med.

The bit in between is what they want. ALL OF IT

They don't want a 2 State solution, that is wishful thinking of Western politicians.

They want ALL of it.


and these people, tortured the prisoners in Gaza within their homes. The people of Gaza ARE Hamas. They ARE the ones who teach their children how best to kill Jews, how to conduct knife attacks. Kiddie shows on tv in Gaza show how and the teach the kids that will ensure that Allah is pleased and they get to go to "heaven" by murdering, raping and butchering Jews.

Giving them even a part of Israel is rewarding the horrors they've done to the Jews since the 1890s.

Israel belongs to the sons and daughters of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Great post Margery, very informative - There is also a book titled "Israel: Whose Land Is It Anyway" that helped me know the truth. I can't remember the author and there may be more than one book with that title (the book I read was very pro Israel). If anyone knows the author please post. Thanks

 

[Tall Timbers]

Great post Margery, very informative - There is also a book titled "Israel: Whose Land Is It Anyway" that helped me know the truth. I can't remember the author and there may be more than one book with that title (the book I read was very pro Israel). If anyone knows the author please post. Thanks

Jennifer Miles?

 

[Margery]

Great post Margery, very informative - There is also a book titled "Israel: Whose Land Is It Anyway" that helped me know the truth. I can't remember the author and there may be more than one book with that title (the book I read was very pro Israel). If anyone knows the author please post. Thanks

I've heard good things about that one, although I've never read it.

It's by Jennifer Miles and it can be found at Friends of Israel Gospel Ministries listed at $7 - It's 63 pages.

A similar book - a bit longer, lots of sources cited, is called The Mountains of Israel: the Bible and the West Bank by Norma Archbold which I was given, - the third edition dated Dec 1993. It's 124 pages long. I checked, there is a slightly newer edition with a forward by Zola Levitt, that can be found used only so I guess it's not in print any more.

The resources are out there. God has ensured the truth exists.

 

[mattfivefour]

Arnold Fruchtenbaum's insights as posted by TT above and our own @Margery's analysis at US includes Trumps entire 20 point peace plan into a UN resolution establishing "a credible path to Palestinian Statehood" strike me as far more likely than the idea you presented, brother. Yours was intriguing, but upon examination, for the reasons posted above, I think not likely.

 

[TCC]

No.

They have land and blessings in the areas given to Ishmael (of Hagar) as well as Esau (Jordan), and Lot's sons by his daughters (Jordan).

Most of them are descendants of those moved into the area now known as Israel (including the "west bank") during the years after the first Zionists began arriving in the 1890s. Before that the land was pretty desolate with few inhabitants (some of whom were still Jewish btw) as Mark Twain observed in Innocents Abroad when he toured the area including Jerusalem.

The Ottoman occupation had been brutal- they taxed the trees, so those were chopped down, resulting in desertification increasing over the centuries. NOT much lived there including plants.

Until the Jews began coming back. As God promised (do a search, look it up) the desert began to bloom as He turned their hearts to come back to their land.

But as the Jews began to prosper, local Arabs from Jordan (Esau and Lot's descendants mixed with some of Ishmael and the sons of Abraham born after Sarah died), Gaza got a lot of Egyptians, Bedouin tribes moved in, and Syrian, Lebanese and others from Iraq joined in.

As they came they began to slaughter the Jews - a huge massacre in Hebron in the 20s and others. They began to create a story - the grand mufti of Jerusalem Yasser Arafats uncle- fabricated a story about Mohammed going up from the Temple site to heaven making it the "3rd holiest site in Islam". That was begun around the 20s.

The arabs including that grand mufti worked WITH Hitler on a plan to murder all the Jews in Israel that escaped from Hitler's "final solution".

You should know that Britain didn't allow the escapees into what was then called Palestine during the period between the wars after the Ottoman empire died. In spite of the Balfour declaration (look it up) and the San Remo thing (look that up) both of which I mentioned up thread that give the Jews a homeland that btw INCLUDED ALL OF WHAT IS NOW JORDAN.

You see God DID have mercy on the arabs. They WERE given the larger share of Israel- it's called JORDAN! That IS "Palestine"

But because of their ancient hatred (look that up in the Bible, it's in Obadiah I think, one of the prophets dealing with the descendants of Esau) they refuse to be satisfied so when Israel became a nation in 1i948 they invaded.

Egypt took Gaza and Jordan took the "West Bank".

Israel regained these areas in 67 and at different points, also the Golan Heights region (northern kingdom of Samaria) and will gain more in future.

But at no point does God give that land to any but the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

That land promise is given down thru those lines, to those particular descendants and God calls Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The descendants of Abraham outside that line, have no claim on that land and if you look at the size of the Arab lands around Israel and Israel's size you can see that God blessed them in their own places with wealth and land.

There is no need to go after the sliver He gave to the Jews.

Those people have a choice: Go with God's blessing and bless Israel (don't claim it, but live in peace inside Israel as many do) or go with the curse that comes on those who chant

"from the river to the sea, Palestine, will be free"

The River is Jordan
The Sea is the Med.

The bit in between is what they want. ALL OF IT

They don't want a 2 State solution, that is wishful thinking of Western politicians.

They want ALL of it.


and these people, tortured the prisoners in Gaza within their homes. The people of Gaza ARE Hamas. They ARE the ones who teach their children how best to kill Jews, how to conduct knife attacks. Kiddie shows on tv in Gaza show how and the teach the kids that will ensure that Allah is pleased and they get to go to "heaven" by murdering, raping and butchering Jews.

Giving them even a part of Israel is rewarding the horrors they've done to the Jews since the 1890s.

Israel belongs to the sons and daughters of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Thanks Margery. Well place post and research. I'm not suggesting though that God did not and does not give Israel its land. I'm suggesting the land is already divided.

map of what god promised israel abrahamic covenant - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

I understand what you are saying. that Palestine has a country and we should not pretend Palestine should be worked into Israel somehow. I don't disagree with that. My concern was not that its ok to give away Israeli land. That is not the issue as far as i can tell. But like in a stupid way, lol, I believe at least American intentions are not the same as the UN intensions. Its naive. But I think it believes that it is trying to stabilize the land. Ultimately if that happens, America might get push back from God possibly yes. But in general I don't believe it is the American intension to dissolve Israel. I understand jockeying for favor from both Israel and the Arab world is wishy-washy and America having it blow up in our laps in the form of like being hit with an emp or something. I understand playing footsies with the Arab world in this issue could become very toxic for America. I understand those sentiments. But again, I just stress that I believe that the land of Isreal belongs to them. Amen.

We are likely going to see this differently, but my point is we cannot know for sure what possible tension God might have toward Israel both in their disobedient state and how He uses things to fulfill prophecy. We cannot know that though. I'm not saying that God is Schizophrenic (giving Israel land and then disciplining them out of His promise). I'm simply saying God is sovereign over this issue. And how He might use nation states to discipline and fulfill prophecy I believe is where the revelatory import should lead us to consider. Not in how much land Israel can hold onto. If it were about that, Israel currently holds, what 10% of promised land if that? This phenomenon before us to me implies its not exactly about that. If it were, we should be saying the same thing about Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, All of Jordan, lower fringes of Turkey. All that land is much greater. If we send Palestinians to Jordan, that is still Israels land. So because of the difficulty present in currently stressing for Israel to hold on to Jerusalem and all of their land I don't believe is a big enough point on this current event horizon. Because most of Israel (or should I say the majority of Israel) is not in their position. They only currently hold a very small fraction of it. To me that suggests that what we are dealing with is ultimately not about the land. Because the super Lion's Share of it is not even on the table.

. . . . .

I realize what our biblical sentiments are reflect beautifully in a symbolic gesture to not give up what land they currently have. Amen. I realize we don't see it as symbolic. And I honor the care of defense on behalf of Israel keeping their land. But God saw fit to bring Israel back to a penny and some change of their promised land to begin with. The fact, to me, that most of the promised land was not something God providentially brought them back into sets the stage for the context Israel is in currently under His care. The 2% to 10% of what the Abrahamic covenant affords them is NOT this context providentially. Quite literally. Established by God Himself in how He determined the boundaries Israel would providentially reenter and operate in on the scene. And since its clearly not the issue of Israel's land, due in part to God's mercy mixed with very real boundaries He established for their 21st century context, and it is apparent to all in this, the unfolding of what utility before God Israel and nation states surrounding this issue are about are 97% like sovereignly determined by God. To me it would be about the Abrahamic Covenant if Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, All of Jordan, and lower fringes of Turkey (or Russia...whatever that map posted is showing there). I see it is at least a discussion to have. But to me, God is looking at this through prophetic eyes. Not so much Abrahamic Covenant Eyes. Not that He does not have those and holds to His promise in his heart. But 90% of the missing land of Israel today is pretty much not the focus here at all. God does make it an issue in the tribulation because there it won't be stupid attempts at middle east diplomacy. It will be about those who oppress Israel from their land.

Something else i consider. Trump often comes very sideways at issues. He used the Deal of the Century ideology to form the Abrahamic Accords. His language is more direct now. But while much of the world thought that Trump was dissing Bibi during His middle east tour, the outcome of that was Trump showing affection toward Israel. And he and Bibi were fine. What we don't know is how much is the annexation idea on hold for or if that itself is some kind of political optic. Trump often does backroom moves while saying another thing. Its almost certain in some cases that the louder Trump is on some issues, the more likely he is distracting from something else he is really doing. I think the sentiment of Christians to want to protect Israel in their Abrahamic Covenant endears the heart of God. I'm just suggesting that the writing on the wall is not so much about the Abrahamic Covenant as it is in how God moves to fulfill prophecy. I guess in my parlance, I can see God want to accent something to the Arab world in this. But to what degree i cannot say. I believe in whatever mode that is might come from a blueprint none of us fully understands. I think it is awesome the Christian family deeply shares in Israel's Abrahamic Covenant. That has got to endear God's heart. But most of that land is not even in play today. What is in play? Prophecy fulfillment.

We may likely not agree. And that is ok. My guess is just that keeping an open mind in what providence brings can inform quite a bit upon a number of events. But if we limit our choices to the Abrahamic Covenant (90% of which is not even in play today) there could be quite a bit (maybe proportionately 90%) we miss to soberly calibrate is all. In any event thanks for the heart felt earnest post reply. It come from a heart of gold toward the apple of God's eye. Amen. Blessings.

 

[dwb]

This is just awful.
insanity: insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I honestly believe Pres. Trump is truly unaware of the hate level of the Gazan people. He is thinking that giving them a nice place to live, with good jobs and schools, will change their minds and they all of a sudden become peaceful. These are not normal people.

 

[Andiamo]

Arnold Fruchtenbaum's insights as posted by TT above

I can’t find this post…someone point me to it

 

[Andiamo]

Don't mourn, or grieve but rejoice that the time is coming close. We can't stop the events from happening, our redemption draws near.

I was saving this post to read, after my initial reactions…and now realize why it got a laugh when I posted my “Kushner” right underneath it Great post Margery! Amen!!! We are leaving soon.