Update from “on the ground” in Israel

[Cheeky200386]

Thanks Hol. I did not know that...lol. Like i have no idea who that guy is. But thanks for complimenting my points. In general, i consider Amir/Hibbs generally too Hollywood for me. I live right down the street from Jack's Church. Lovely body of believers there. I am no stranger to the celeb world. Jmacs...etc. I would not go to Jack for crucial info. But he holds a barameter of sorts in a socialogical sector of inform that I do see as crucial. Jack Hibbs/Amir represent a segment of Evangelicalism that would carry much weight in the sense of God demonstrating something about His relation to the church through that population.

I kind of see evangelical sectors kind of like we might view the 7 letters in Rev. But not trying to match names. Just saying that maybe seeing a composite of what we notice in churches today can help inform us of some things about our Father's interaction, vibe, and orientation toward us and the world events today. That may sound odd. But an example would be something like this.

1. American Reformed -- A camp I am very familiar with
This camp has a moniker placed on it, to me, by literal scholar Carl Trueman -- Orthodoxy as Performing Art
The irony there would be that they see themselves as the purest non-commonner type church alive. However, as the moniker suggests, closer to a church run on opinion (and worse, opinion of itself).

2. Calvary Chapel -- A camp I am marginally familiar with
Here you have varying views on scripture. Jack Hibbs is borderline Lordship Salvationist -- a covenient baby sitter from the pulpit tool. The good side of Jack is he is the only pastor I recall hearing that does not know the future prophetically (where even John Macarthur, cessationist, predicts America destruction psuedo-like prophetically). Not that he (Jack) does not know prophecy. But that he is careful to be open to how God might channel direction today. Will we be blessed? Hope so. Will we be destroyed? Hope not -- God please give us more time. I see his desire in politics as mostly healthy. But good he is balancing it more now without Trump so much, amen. But still weary of Jerry Boykin like connections (ecumenicalism).

When JD Farag represented Calvery Chapel he represented more of the free Grace side. Encouraging Abba Father like ideas from the pulpit. So very different styles. And there are many others. But in general Calvery Chapel just came out of a season under the American Reformed suspicion of being too permissive with wild sided Charismatic/Pentecostal views and scolded by John Marcarthur for not disciplining the Jesus People. Of which Harvest side Greg Laurie lauds in the recent movie. So there is that view. Which also has its set of endorsements to other not so safe Christian (presumed) voices.

We also have the watcher community with the vast conference circuit connections. And varying Jan Markel views. I think Jan does a great job, but to me the template used for end times, again--to me, is way too Revelation heavy...for the age of grace.

3. Baptist / Fundementalists -- There are varying degrees and levels (Southern Baptists, Independent etc). There are some harsh trends there. And really control freakish cult like themes that can come out of this batch. There are also some very profound ones like Leighton Flowers. And great commentary overviews in general by Jon Harris like camp. There is Al Mohler and the leanings of wokedom a bit. And of course the Gospel Coalition. And the woke themes there seen in such ways like Alister Begg. And all that theme park variety of what is going on in the body dynamic from that perspective.

So just looking at those 3 general arenas we get a sense of the range in which God is seen as in the body of Christ. But this also helps to distinguish themes in our lives that would have to, if we were honest, have some good and some bad in each. So when we line up like terms and concepts of the bad next to the like term concepts of the good by contrast, we can sort of see the playing field in how Christianity is seen in America today. And there are other countries. Etc. To the degree we get a sense of where these factions are at. The struggles each have. The good in each. We get a sense.

For example one general overall theme that comes to mind is Christian Nationalism and Christian culture. What theatrics are in that theme park? We see we can make things about Christian Nationalism vs. being spiritual "This is not our home." Or we can see nuances of why some Christians would want to push back against the government, and parlay the greater schematic of Providence shifting about the world stage (the glabalism vs. nationalism struggle). We can see those who make Christian Nationalism a thing. And those who make anti-Christian nationalism "not" a thing -- or a thing to not be (which I actually side more with). But these all make up themes I believe God would want us to be aware of. Because if we are not aware of our own body, how can we possibly tell what time it is? The world condition IS NOT our tribal views. That would merely be our tunnel vision of events views, actually.. I believe. So to the extent we try to understand the thinking in some of these camps (the good and bad), is the best shot we have at understanding the lay of the land. And how God might move given those conditions amidst current providential events also unfolding. That sounds like a lot. But when we see that for what it is, when say America becomes super powerful and makes Israel strong (against a backdrop of everyone saying the opposite kind of), its just because when we take the time, I believe, to weather where others are coming from. What is bunk or what is biased etc. We get a chance at seeing soberly because we spent varying time weighing things out.

But I don't think its about being an expert in any one thing. Just a child like heart toward understanding. Or having a heart to understand outside our core general leanings out of considering how to best be for ones from any of those groups, I reckon. Not to judge. Although judgement sometimes is needed. But to understand (the golden rule). So if there was one huge rubric hermeneutic for end times -- i'd say it would be the golden rule (John 15:15). To the extent we take honest interest to see the hearts of others: wrong, right, or indifferent. And try to see it soberly and maturely...we practice in the spirit the golden rule. And that golden goose lays the golden egg of maybe seeing what the Father is doing. He told us, "Do it unto me to the least of these..." is what? Doing it to honor the Father is to be seen in Him loving one another. And to know what He is doing is to in common biblical sense, I believe though love one another. Out of that sphere of living I believe "tells on itself." And seeing things for how they are is not necessarily rocket science. But I bit is if we stay too long with the bottle of strong drink bias and tribal thinking, it can tend to cloud perspective. If there were one thing that would be an antibody to what God is doing today, it would be being tribal, I think. Unfortunately that is kind of "in" today. Kind of manly and big bad bob like. But understanding what the Father is doing as at least a marginal composite of his body persepctive...eh...probably not so much. Yet after loving one another from that in the spirit place, wisdom in what the Father is doing is just like there handing out on all the walls like paintings to kind of plainly see. THIS IS MY VIEW and as a cessationist I am not meaning for this to sound like be prophetic. I just mean it to be like reading street graffiti with spirit tinted glasses, perhaps. Kinda my take. But probably sounds cookoo...lol. .

So if America gets stronger and stronger (what if we peg the value of gold to Bitcoin?). Just a sample of what could happen). But if we see the golden age as Trump worship deception, and not as a likely posture to help Israel...i just think in general that I don't think that is holistically looking at what, in what way, and how things are occuring can likely or possibly further inform us, me thinks. It's not rocket science. But if it goes that way...it would not be because I'm psychic. it would be because I was watching. The body with care. And outside of His spirit, I am sickly selfish. So just saying.

How that all relates to Amir is just that there are some concerns with him, but for whatever reason the Lord has, he seems to have found in part, a good place to speak from that is rather edifying to the body. But in other capacities I would not consider them. But this one, in spades, yes, I would. Amen. His takes even seem to transcend a camp of Jan Markell's where Amir seems to be bringing in far more Ez 38 bacon for breakfast. I love bacon. Blessings.

I’m in the independent Fundamental Baptist camp and I haven’t heard of or know much about the people or groups you mentioned in my camp. I heard of Southern Baptists only because I heard they had a split with Beth Moore. I also heard about JD Greer mentioned in a book I read about sold out pastors. Otherwise, I don’t know anything about them and their views.

The one thing I have seen with Independent Baptist churches is that they have been infiltrated by Calvinists and it pisses me off to no end. They creep in and try to change people over time. I detest the deceptive approach.

I do listen to Billy Crone, Andy Woods, Brandon Holthaus pretty regularly.

 

[TCC]

I’m in the independent Fundamental Baptist camp and I haven’t heard of or know much about the people or groups you mentioned in my camp. I heard of Southern Baptists only because I heard they had a split with Beth Moore. I also heard about JD Greer mentioned in a book I read about sold out pastors. Otherwise, I don’t know anything about them and their views.

The one thing I have seen with Independent Baptist churches is that they have been infiltrated by Calvinists and it pisses me off to no end. They creep in and try to change people over time. I detest the deceptive approach.

I do listen to Billy Crone, Andy Woods, Brandon Holthaus pretty regularly.

Thanks Cheeky. I would consider myself Independent Baptist too. I would also lean toward fundementalism more than I would evangelical ecumenicalism. I believe Baptists have strong hunger for God's word. And eat it up and are very well grounded in His word. Whereas Southern Baptists tend to be a bit more relaxed on that. Testimonies from some over the years. However, there are exceptions like Leighton Flowers being very Southern Baptist and knows the word extremely well.

THE RICH HERITAGE OF FUNDAMENTALISM PROPER
The church owes a great debt to fundemntalism as this denomination stood against the wiles of evolution creeping in the church at the turn of the 20th century. I try to read views historically of the church where fundamentalism and evangelicalism sometimes dance together and sometimes seem to fight. There's a lot of great rich church history surrounding the evolution of both camps in America. You have encouraged me to get back into those works. It's just the way I study is like looking at several things simultanously...and sometimes doing that gets me thinking a little too deeply...lol...if you can imagine that. Or what that might look like if I might feel that. So it takes a toll on me. But so drenched with the hearts of men and women on both sides of that isle that has added to some good and some bad outcomes in the church over the decedes. I think it is healthy to understand as best we can...but life does not always afford us the time.

THANK YOU
Thanks for reading all that by the way...lol. Wow. I am blessed a few have found it to read all the way through. It is of the more gritty (I call) views I would put forth. Gritty in the sense of it being stated on purpose to move the needle off our common path. I try to keep that to a minimum...because I think that sort of thing should be kept to a minimum. But very blessed you did read it. In short I would just say this...

THE GRAMMAR OF OPINION
I think highly of fundamentalism proper. But it does seem a camp prone to permit opinion to drive doctrinal preferences in ways. We have seen over the years that the danger can become dogmatics found within fundamentalism. Spencer Smith on YouTube offers some pretty interesting and helpful perspectives from time to time being from the fundamentalist views. But I would say that if you find Independent Baptist somewhat easy pray for Calvinist takeovers...it does say something about how the Reformed Camp in America operates. But it also suggests something about those churches that become easy pray. Like, why would they be somewhat easy takeover territory for the reformed camp? In part I would suggest the similarity to be the dangers of doctrines having too much support from "opinion basis." Because Calvinism is thickly cloaked in opinion. And so are some of the tendencies in fundamentalism. This means that if a church tends to operate too much leaning on their opinions of doctrine and how they might be shaped by Christian thought more perhaps than might be healthiest, this can become a prime soil for takeover.

THE CONVICTION QAUGMIRE
In general this is kind of the condition I find that seems to be similar in a lot of denominational thought. Where we may not be so aware of just how much opinion plays into how we cement doctrinal convictions. This is why I wrote what I did. The long post you graciously read. Because the antidote to opinion, is grander insight of the pros and cons of our leanings, I believe. Today we are in an age heavy with super dupper double down convictions. My camp against your camp like mentality in the church. And although we need to have strong conviction, it would seem that the rearing of how best that is becoming of the church in Christian maturity can often be eroded by perhaps an overly protective view of our convictions in ways.

That is not to say our convictions should not be protected. Or that we should relax on defending the convictions we have in faith. Not at all. But that is rather meant to highlight how holding our convictions with strength that deepens often comes with the allowance of them being challenged perhaps in not always most comfortable ways. While also considering as James mentions we are created in the image of God...and that we consider one another with this sensitivity and know that a person with perhaps very different views might be as helped by our heart toward them in sincerity as the truth protected in the views in which we differ. I am a firm believer in the power of understanding the body as a means of safe guarding our own views. Because the more we allow them to mature in the contrast of others, the more they truly become ours in living faith transcending opinion. But if in cases of churches that get overriden by Calvinism, they may cave because convictions can often be grounded too securely in opinion,. And they can more easily be shifted from there. It is almost an oxymoron actually it would seem. That we guard our convictions in ways that can actually transform them into mere opinions.

FREE RANGE CONVICTION FEEDING
We might think that churches become easy plunder because they are too accomodating. And yes, I would agree that is an ingredient too. But if our convictions form our character that resonates in our person as ones who believe in living faith, the tendency to be empathetic would not necessarily = undo tolerance. Because if our empathy towards the views of others is rooted in His Spirit's hospitality, He in us would discern. Not so much "we" in us. Early on in my posting of this forum I did share the view I believe that the church is largely in a Laodicean like era. Not all churches in every respect. But an overarching tendency for the church today is, from what I have seen, to be very used to resting in opinion based doctrinal ethics. Where we could either overly defend or underly defend. But if the spirit is maturing in us, there would be an increasing tension between empathy and tolerance of evil, in my estimation.

BLESSINGS...
I hear your pain though. If ever interested Beyond the Fundamentals on YouTube has an excellent series on Calvinist Infiltration. This channel is on the cutting edge of literally helping churches stop the mad gold rush of church infiltration these days. Some of these videos are really long. But provide not only excellent content, but real ongoing case studies to share in the moment real time with other believers caught in this warfare. The channel does have some other stray directions. But I have not seen any other ministry like that one regarding church takeovers. Your heart as expressed might find much rich and deep edification there. Those videos are long though...lol. I am usually always doing something else while they edify in the background. I hope some of this is of gracious edification in some ways for you dear sister. Blessings.

 

[Cheeky200386]

Thanks Cheeky. I would consider myself Independent Baptist too. I would also lean toward fundementalism more than I would evangelical ecumenicalism. I believe Baptists have strong hunger for God's word. And eat it up and are very well grounded in His word. Whereas Southern Baptists tend to be a bit more relaxed on that. Testimonies from some over the years. However, there are exceptions like Leighton Flowers being very Southern Baptist and knows the word extremely well.

THE RICH HERITAGE OF FUNDAMENTALISM PROPER
The church owes a great debt to fundemntalism as this denomination stood against the wiles of evolution creeping in the church at the turn of the 20th century. I try to read views historically of the church where fundamentalism and evangelicalism sometimes dance together and sometimes seem to fight. There's a lot of great rich church history surrounding the evolution of both camps in America. You have encouraged me to get back into those works. It's just the way I study is like looking at several things simultanously...and sometimes doing that gets me thinking a little too deeply...lol...if you can imagine that. Or what that might look like if I might feel that. So it takes a toll on me. But so drenched with the hearts of men and women on both sides of that isle that has added to some good and some bad outcomes in the church over the decedes. I think it is healthy to understand as best we can...but life does not always afford us the time.

THANK YOU
Thanks for reading all that by the way...lol. Wow. I am blessed a few have found it to read all the way through. It is of the more gritty (I call) views I would put forth. Gritty in the sense of it being stated on purpose to move the needle off our common path. I try to keep that to a minimum...because I think that sort of thing should be kept to a minimum. But very blessed you did read it. In short I would just say this...

THE GRAMMAR OF OPINION
I think highly of fundamentalism proper. But it does seem a camp prone to permit opinion to drive doctrinal preferences in ways. We have seen over the years that the danger can become dogmatics found within fundamentalism. Spencer Smith on YouTube offers some pretty interesting and helpful perspectives from time to time being from the fundamentalist views. But I would say that if you find Independent Baptist somewhat easy pray for Calvinist takeovers...it does say something about how the Reformed Camp in America operates. But it also suggests something about those churches that become easy pray. Like, why would they be somewhat easy takeover territory for the reformed camp? In part I would suggest the similarity to be the dangers of doctrines having too much support from "opinion basis." Because Calvinism is thickly cloaked in opinion. And so are some of the tendencies in fundamentalism. This means that if a church tends to operate too much leaning on their opinions of doctrine and how they might be shaped by Christian thought more perhaps than might be healthiest, this can become a prime soil for takeover.

THE CONVICTION QAUGMIRE
In general this is kind of the condition I find that seems to be similar in a lot of denominational thought. Where we may not be so aware of just how much opinion plays into how we cement doctrinal convictions. This is why I wrote what I did. The long post you graciously read. Because the antidote to opinion, is grander insight of the pros and cons of our leanings, I believe. Today we are in an age heavy with super dupper double down convictions. My camp against your camp like mentality in the church. And although we need to have strong conviction, it would seem that the rearing of how best that is becoming of the church in Christian maturity can often be eroded by perhaps an overly protective view of our convictions in ways.

That is not to say our convictions should not be protected. Or that we should relax on defending the convictions we have in faith. Not at all. But that is rather meant to highlight how holding our convictions with strength that deepens often comes with the allowance of them being challenged perhaps in not always most comfortable ways. While also considering as James mentions we are created in the image of God...and that we consider one another with this sensitivity and know that a person with perhaps very different views might be as helped by our heart toward them in sincerity as the truth protected in the views in which we differ. I am a firm believer in the power of understanding the body as a means of safe guarding our own views. Because the more we allow them to mature in the contrast of others, the more they truly become ours in living faith transcending opinion. But if in cases of churches that get overriden by Calvinism, they may cave because convictions can often be grounded too securely in opinion,. And they can more easily be shifted from there. It is almost an oxymoron actually it would seem. That we guard our convictions in ways that can actually transform them into mere opinions.

FREE RANGE CONVICTION FEEDING
We might think that churches become easy plunder because they are too accomodating. And yes, I would agree that is an ingredient too. But if our convictions form our character that resonates in our person as ones who believe in living faith, the tendency to be empathetic would not necessarily = undo tolerance. Because if our empathy towards the views of others is rooted in His Spirit's hospitality, He in us would discern. Not so much "we" in us. Early on in my posting of this forum I did share the view I believe that the church is largely in a Laodicean like era. Not all churches in every respect. But an overarching tendency for the church today is, from what I have seen, to be very used to resting in opinion based doctrinal ethics. Where we could either overly defend or underly defend. But if the spirit is maturing in us, there would be an increasing tension between empathy and tolerance of evil, in my estimation.

BLESSINGS...
I hear your pain though. If ever interested Beyond the Fundamentals on YouTube has an excellent series on Calvinist Infiltration. This channel is on the cutting edge of literally helping churches stop the mad gold rush of church infiltration these days. Some of these videos are really long. But provide not only excellent content, but real ongoing case studies to share in the moment real time with other believers caught in this warfare. The channel does have some other stray directions. But I have not seen any other ministry like that one regarding church takeovers. Your heart as expressed might find much rich and deep edification there. Those videos are long though...lol. I am usually always doing something else while they edify in the background. I hope some of this is of gracious edification in some ways for you dear sister. Blessings.

This is incredibly helpful. I will definitely check out that channel regarding church takeovers. I love Spencer Smith too! I especially loved his Third Adam series and the one about Satan targeting children.

You know I never really thought about why Independent Fundamental Baptist churches are falling to Calvinism. That is a great question to consider as to what their weaknesses are. Thank you for pointing that out!

I appreciate how thought provoking this post was. A lot to pray and think about.