The Four Animals in Daniel 7 -- Do They Related to End Time Nations?

[TCC]

This thread is a spin off of something Rose posted in the Rest of the World category. The article she presented had to do with Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania officially going with European energy and disconnecting from Russian supply. Which may have overtures to Ez 38 reasons for Russia having a hook (forced) to participate in Ez 38 perhaps. So instead of laying out an entire picnic spread down on that thread's front porch, I thought this might interest some as a discussion.

Have you guys looked into the differences between these animals and the Nebu statue (Dan 2): Head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, feet of iron and clay? Below are quick references -- except that 3rd article (that 3rd article has a lot of detail...I would question some of its findings...but it is well thought through and detailed...and helpful to this discussion if interested).

1. The first one is the well respected ICR quick references to provide some credibility factor to looking at Daniel's animals in this way

Search Tools | The Institute for Creation Research

www.icr.org

2. The second is from a website called TruLight Radio XM. I have decided not to post the link because it categorizes pretrib rapture as false doctrine. And I did not believe it to be appropriate to post there link. I believe there are many great ministries out there that are not pretrib. But I won't post the link as to limit confusion over the rapture issue. Instead I have posted the page of interest for this topic below. It was done a while ago. So it is somewhat taken from a snapshot in time along the way. I thought it might be helpful to see how considering the way this ministry considers how to look at the second animal, the bear, is an interesting approach. And at least some helpful fodder in the context of potential relevance in a discussion about the Daniel chapter 7 animals as end time nation potential. PLEASE SEE POSTING BELOW...

3. This is taken from a website I would not recommend for research. It is outside the Christain scope of orthodoxy. Therefore I have taken the precaution to upload a link to this PDF in my Google docs: FourBeastsofDaniel7_24.pdf There may be some observations in this pdf that I would not hold to. But the bulk of this perspective I would see as having relevance at a discussion worthy table. It is the only detailed work I could find quickly enough. If anyone knows of one better to use, please feel free to post it or counter with. I am just trying to find material that has looked into the 4 Daniel Animals. And its sad that I cannot find any really great weigh-ins from Orthodox Christianity. Maybe this is because there is nothing to that? Got Questions likely thinks so...

4. I am putting this link to Got Questions dealing with the four animals. What I don't understand is in Rev 13 we see them: Lion, Bear, Leopard, Dragon. We see them there. And it is told to Daniel these nations are the the end times. Yet, we just go with scholars of old who could see history play out on the otherside of Daniel, but would also be exposed to the reality of Daniel being sealed until the time it is for. I am not saying that time is now. But why do we limit these 4 animals like Got Questions does? For Got Questions seems to just have an absolute absence prior to Rev 13. Like these nations jump from the 1st century to the last 42 months on earth. I believe the reason we see the four animals in Daniel is to "have an idea today" about what they will become during the tribulation. But Got Questions does not see that as important or relevant. Granted, we won't know why all the in's and out's for sure. But does it not strike anyone as odd that we just turn a blind eye to end time nations today and Danial? lol. LIke what's going on? lol.

What are the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7? | GotQuestions.org

What are the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7? What kingdoms do each of the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7 represent?

www.gotquestions.org

. . . . .

TruLight Radio XM​

The Bear with 3 Ribs in his mouth​

Bible Prophecy explained –
The Prophecy of THE 3 RIBS IN THE MOUTH OF THE BEAR.

Bible prophecy always come true, even if the Church did not understood this for decades, This Prophecy is now very clear.
God told Daniel: Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

We Now understand!
In Daniel Chapter 7. Daniel sees 4 Beasts.
Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

These 4 Beasts are 5 Countries or World Nations will battle to be in control during the end times.
The Lion = UK England
The Eagle wings broken away from the Lion = USA America
The Bear = Russia
The Leopard = Germany
And then the 10 Horn Beast = the EU Europe Union/NATO.
In Daniel 7 v 5.
And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

“It had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it”
Three ribs = Bones of Contention. Two Dogs fighting about ONE bone.
This means 2 Countries fighting about one Piece of Land.
Tree Ribs means, 3 Pieces of Land in 3 Different Battles.

HISTORY OF THE BEAR and Other Countries.

Russia vs China
Russia has taken 3 Piece of Land from China in a war in the 1689.
Mongolia , Tuva also Zinjiang and Xikong renamed to Kazakhstan, Kirghiztan and Taijikastan.
This the 1st Rib in the Mouth of the Bear.

EU vs Russia
EU / NATO taken 3 Countries away from Russia.
These 3 Countries was part of Russia before they become NATO countries in 1991, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. (The Baltic States) currently members of NATO.
This the 2nd Rib in the Mouth of the Bear.

Russia vs ISIS
Russia is currently at war against ISIS in Syria and has now moved to Iraq as ISIS Forces fled from Syria to Iraq.
With the win in Syria. The UN will pass Syria under Russian control. This includes a piece of land called Golan Heights that Israel won in the 7day war of 1967.
Currently a Bone of Contention between Syria and Israel. And the UN are requesting to return this land to Syria, SOON under Russian control.

The 3 Bones in the 3rd Rib is Syria, Iraq and Golan Heights in Israel.
The 3rd Rib in the Mouth of the Beast.

Currently Today.
The Bear has the 1st Rib between his teeth in his mouth safely.
The Bear is currently battling NATO in a legal battle to get the 2nd Rib back in his mouth, being Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. (The Baltic States).
This Legal Battle could turn to a nuclear war soon!
And then The Bear as we know is Battling ISIS in a war in Syria soon to be won, and then Continuing to complete the action in Iraq. After this 2 Countries was given to Russia, They will claim the land in Israel’s control = The Golan Heights.

Israel will not release this land and this reason for the Gog and Magog war. Ezek 38 and 39 prophesied about!
Bible Prophecy says, Russia (The Bear) will have these 3 Ribs in his mouth between his teeth.
So expect two Epic Battles.

DOG FIGHT NR 1
Russia against NATO for the Baltic States = Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
And

DOG FIGHT NR 2
Russia against Israel for the Golan Heights.
“Arise, devour much flesh” Russia told itself.
By Pastor Dirk .

 

[1LoverofGod]

This thread is a spin off of something Rose posted in the Rest of the World category. The article she presented had to do with Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania officially going with European energy and disconnecting from Russian supply. Which may have overtures to Ez 38 reasons for Russia having a hook (forced) to participate in Ez 38 perhaps. So instead of laying out an entire picnic spread down on that thread's front porch, I thought this might interest some as a discussion.

Have you guys looked into the differences between these animals and the Nebu statue (Dan 2): Head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, feet of iron and clay? Below are quick references -- except that 3rd article (that 3rd article has a lot of detail...I would question some of its findings...but it is well thought through and detailed...and helpful to this discussion if interested).

1. The first one is the well respected ICR quick references to provide some credibility factor to looking at Daniel's animals in this way

Search Tools | The Institute for Creation Research

www.icr.org

2. The second is from a website called TruLight Radio XM. I have decided not to post the link because it categorizes pretrib rapture as false doctrine. And I did not believe it to be appropriate to post there link. I believe there are many great ministries out there that are not pretrib. But I won't post the link as to limit confusion over the rapture issue. Instead I have posted the page of interest for this topic below. It was done a while ago. So it is somewhat taken from a snapshot in time along the way. I thought it might be helpful to see how considering the way this ministry considers how to look at the second animal, the bear, is an interesting approach. And at least some helpful fodder in the context of potential relevance in a discussion about the Daniel chapter 7 animals as end time nation potential. PLEASE SEE POSTING BELOW...

3. This is taken from a website I would not recommend for research. It is outside the Christain scope of orthodoxy. Therefore I have taken the precaution to upload a link to this PDF in my Google docs: FourBeastsofDaniel7_24.pdf There may be some observations in this pdf that I would not hold to. But the bulk of this perspective I would see as having relevance at a discussion worthy table. It is the only detailed work I could find quickly enough. If anyone knows of one better to use, please feel free to post it or counter with. I am just trying to find material that has looked into the 4 Daniel Animals. And its sad that I cannot find any really great weigh-ins from Orthodox Christianity. Maybe this is because there is nothing to that? Got Questions likely thinks so...

4. I am putting this link to Got Questions dealing with the four animals. What I don't understand is in Rev 13 we see them: Lion, Bear, Leopard, Dragon. We see them there. And it is told to Daniel these nations are the the end times. Yet, we just go with scholars of old who could see history play out on the otherside of Daniel, but would also be exposed to the reality of Daniel being sealed until the time it is for. I am not saying that time is now. But why do we limit these 4 animals like Got Questions does? For Got Questions seems to just have an absolute absence prior to Rev 13. Like these nations jump from the 1st century to the last 42 months on earth. I believe the reason we see the four animals in Daniel is to "have an idea today" about what they will become during the tribulation. But Got Questions does not see that as important or relevant. Granted, we won't know why all the in's and out's for sure. But does it not strike anyone as odd that we just turn a blind eye to end time nations today and Danial? lol. LIke what's going on? lol.

What are the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7? | GotQuestions.org

What are the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7? What kingdoms do each of the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7 represent?

www.gotquestions.org

. . . . .

TruLight Radio XM​

The Bear with 3 Ribs in his mouth​

Bible Prophecy explained –
The Prophecy of THE 3 RIBS IN THE MOUTH OF THE BEAR.

Bible prophecy always come true, even if the Church did not understood this for decades, This Prophecy is now very clear.
God told Daniel: Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

We Now understand!
In Daniel Chapter 7. Daniel sees 4 Beasts.
Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

These 4 Beasts are 5 Countries or World Nations will battle to be in control during the end times.
The Lion = UK England
The Eagle wings broken away from the Lion = USA America
The Bear = Russia
The Leopard = Germany
And then the 10 Horn Beast = the EU Europe Union/NATO.
In Daniel 7 v 5.
And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

“It had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it”
Three ribs = Bones of Contention. Two Dogs fighting about ONE bone.
This means 2 Countries fighting about one Piece of Land.
Tree Ribs means, 3 Pieces of Land in 3 Different Battles.

HISTORY OF THE BEAR and Other Countries.

Russia vs China
Russia has taken 3 Piece of Land from China in a war in the 1689.
Mongolia , Tuva also Zinjiang and Xikong renamed to Kazakhstan, Kirghiztan and Taijikastan.
This the 1st Rib in the Mouth of the Bear.

EU vs Russia
EU / NATO taken 3 Countries away from Russia.
These 3 Countries was part of Russia before they become NATO countries in 1991, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. (The Baltic States) currently members of NATO.
This the 2nd Rib in the Mouth of the Bear.

Russia vs ISIS
Russia is currently at war against ISIS in Syria and has now moved to Iraq as ISIS Forces fled from Syria to Iraq.
With the win in Syria. The UN will pass Syria under Russian control. This includes a piece of land called Golan Heights that Israel won in the 7day war of 1967.
Currently a Bone of Contention between Syria and Israel. And the UN are requesting to return this land to Syria, SOON under Russian control.

The 3 Bones in the 3rd Rib is Syria, Iraq and Golan Heights in Israel.
The 3rd Rib in the Mouth of the Beast.

Currently Today.
The Bear has the 1st Rib between his teeth in his mouth safely.
The Bear is currently battling NATO in a legal battle to get the 2nd Rib back in his mouth, being Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. (The Baltic States).
This Legal Battle could turn to a nuclear war soon!
And then The Bear as we know is Battling ISIS in a war in Syria soon to be won, and then Continuing to complete the action in Iraq. After this 2 Countries was given to Russia, They will claim the land in Israel’s control = The Golan Heights.

Israel will not release this land and this reason for the Gog and Magog war. Ezek 38 and 39 prophesied about!
Bible Prophecy says, Russia (The Bear) will have these 3 Ribs in his mouth between his teeth.
So expect two Epic Battles.

DOG FIGHT NR 1
Russia against NATO for the Baltic States = Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
And

DOG FIGHT NR 2
Russia against Israel for the Golan Heights.
“Arise, devour much flesh” Russia told itself.
By Pastor Dirk .

Interesting information.
Thank you for your contribution.
I noticed that you referenced me at your opening.
Not that I am upset over it, but because I'm not the only one who has had the view of the Bear representing Russia, and I'm sure you are aware of this, it would be nice if you would like to offer a differing view, that maybe consider making the comparison a bit more broad rather than use me as an example. I just prefer not having a spotlight on me when it's a very broad view point among many. Thank you for understanding.
I do appreciate your input. Please keep doing so.

 

[TCC]

Hi Rose. Thanks for your reply and checking this thread out. I had no idea you thought Russia was the Bear animal. Generically, most people do not think that at all. I would not have guessed you might. Which is fascinating that you actually do. Pretty cool. My mention of you was not to link you to my study. The material I provide is somewhat questionable. I'm not sure I even want to link me to all that...lol. But rather, it was more an overture to a conversation we had earlier. In honor of what we spoke about. So yeah, because it is not customary so much for me to go from one thread and start another, I guess I wanted to highlight that bridge.

In the way it reads to me dear sister, I am just saying that I am referencing Rose because you posted a timely article on three nations that likely will effect Russia. Your comments reflected that it might. But the idea about Ez 38 was not intended to link you to it...because you never mentioned Ez 38 correlation in your thread about those three nations. Much less my mentioning you to imply a view you might hold of Russia being the Daniel Bear animal. I hope in glancing over how I stated it it reflects that. I apologize if it seems to imply something else. For me, it links you only to two things. 1) That I am choosing to post a separate thread from where Rose brought up 3 countries that might effect Russia in significant ways. And 2) That I make a link to Ez 38 as my presumption aside from whether this might be something you hold as possible.

But more so, like this: Rose posted about Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania being in the news. So I am not trying to bring up these three countries on my own. Not that I mean to tie you into any views I hold about those three countries. But just that you found an article, a current event, that suggests those three nations as potentially weakening Russia. And we in current events are being told that by legitmate news. That these three countries are moving on from Russian energy. I apologize if it seems beyond that. For any connection with you dear sister was purely meant as a wink and nod in honor of what we discussed. Again, I am actually surprised that you think Russia is Daniel's bear. Most don't. Or at least would not officially hold that as a position. At least from what I have seen over the years. But I will be careful in the future in what types of cross overs I might make with any in our forum. For that would be totally Grean Acres of me to just pull people into my views inadvertently...lol. Then I would be like a South Park character or something. So yeah, its is always best to be helpful to clarify. Thanks for pointing that out. Blessings.

 

[1LoverofGod]

Hi Rose. Thanks for your reply and checking this thread out. I had no idea you thought Russia was the Bear animal. Generically, most people do not think that at all. I would not have guessed you might. Which is fascinating that you actually do. Pretty cool. My mention of you was not to link you to my study. The material I provide is somewhat questionable. I'm not sure I even want to link me to all that...lol. But rather, it was more an overture to a conversation we had earlier. In honor of what we spoke about. So yeah, because it is not customary so much for me to go from one thread and start another, I guess I wanted to highlight that bridge.

In the way it reads to me dear sister, I am just saying that I am referencing Rose because you posted a timely article on three nations that likely will effect Russia. Your comments reflected that it might. But the idea about Ez 38 was not intended to link you to it...because you never mentioned Ez 38 correlation in your thread about those three nations. Much less my mentioning you to imply a view you might hold of Russia being the Daniel Bear animal. I hope in glancing out how I stated it it reflects that. I apologize if it seems to imply something else. For me, it links you only to two things. 1) That I am choosing to post a separate thread from where Rose brought up 3 countries that might effect Russia in significant ways. And 2) That I make a link to Ez 38 as my presumption aside from whether this might be something you hold as poosible. But more so, like this: Rose posted about Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania being in the news. So I am not trying to bring up these three countries on my own. Not that I mean to tie you into any views I hold about those three countries. But just that you found an article, a current event, that suggests those three nations as potentially weakening Russia. And we in current events are being told that by legitmate news. That these three countries are moving on from Russian energy. I apologize if it seems beyond that. For any connection with you dear sister was purely meant as a wink and nod in honor of what we discussed. Again, I am actually surprised that you think Russia is Daniel's bear. Most don't. Or at least would not officially hold that as a position. At least from what I have seen over the years. But I will be careful in the future in what types of cross overs I might make with nay in our forum. For that would be totally Greaan Acres of me to just pull people into my views inadvertently...lol. Then I would be like a South Park character or something. So yeah, its is always best to be helpful to clarify. Thanks for pointing that out. Blessings.

I wasn't connecting that thread to Ezekiel 38. The Baltic States have nothing to do with the my mentioning the Bear and the Gog and Magog war. Sorry for the confusion. It's just a habit of mine when I refer to Russia to call it the Bear. Many call Russia the Bear and I just picked it up. It's doesn't really matter to me what animal represents Russia because the leader of Russia that leads the Ezekiel 38 invasion of Israel will be an animal regardless of what kind, in my opinion.

 

[TCC]

I wasn't connecting that thread to Ezekiel 38. The Baltic States have nothing to do with the my mentioning the Bear and the Gog and Magog war. Sorry for the confusion. It's just a habit of mine when I refer to Russia to call it the Bear. Many call Russia the Bear and I just picked it up. It's doesn't really matter to me what animal represents Russia because the leader of Russia that leads the Ezekiel 38 invasion of Israel will be an animal regardless of what kind, in my opinion.

I just wanted to note here that I honestly did not even know you said, "bear." lol. When I see someone say that, I assume they mean the national animal it goes by and not at all that they mean it is Daneil's bear from Daniel 7. For me, that is an automatic. So I guess I could see where that might seem like I hugged your bear, kidnapped him, and took him to another country. lol.

For me Rose though, I see bear mentioned with Russia a lot. And in the commons, they are. But that has nothing to do with Daniel 7. In the same way that is how anyone who says bear for Russia means that--at least how I might see it. To me dear sister, that is a given. But I can see now how it might look like I constructed an entire study around your one simple mention...lol.

Sorry if that looks that way. And yeah it makes sense you would want to clarify. I had friends growing up that would automatically become my attorney and tell others what I really meant. Which was a bit annoying. For sure. So i relate dear sister how it might seem I might have tried to be your attorney or something. To me I don't even think about people using bear for Russia. Because in seeing this study I posted here...we evangelicals tend to omit the 4 animals of Daniel as a rule. As an example I posted Got Questions doing just that. So the nature of my article is not..

"How come only Rose knows Russia is the Daniel 7 2nd Animal Nation?" lol. Nope. But rather this...

HOW COME EVANGELICAL AMERICA AND POSSIBLY THE WORLD JUST GO WITH MATCHING DANIELS STATUE WITH HIS ANIMALS? WHY ARE WE OUT TO LUNCH THERE? lol

That is more the whole nature of the study...which would likely include "you" in those that don't think Russia is the bear. But not "you" in a way of pointing you out. I just mean "you" included in a group I would normally always not to see Russia as Danial's chapter 7 bear. Its just not a thing though. For me its a given that way. But yeah...its not a very common topic...so it makes sense it might be a little unusual to bring up. I can see that now. Sorry.

. . . . .
<Mod Edit>

What is exciting to me is that however God might move, He seems to have wanted to include America. And its rather trendy not to think so. I guess I am more like a hippie child. That sees that as a red cape for charging at exactly where God might be moving. Not like a Christian Nation, <Mod Edit>. But just that God genuinely seems interest to use America. And I think it is down right American and Christian to just be ok to see it that way. So in actuality....though...that is what is behind this study. But I am totally willing to be talked off the ledge. And open to any adverse view. Because its healthy to possibly be wrong. Very healthy. And maybe in that sense...this is a study in "healthy." lol. Blessings.

 

[TCC]

So if any might be interested in this kind of thing, typically the Daniel 7 animals representing end time nations are typically understood in prophesy as: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. With Rome being understood as a living near prophecy of future end time NWO last form of global governance before the 1,000 year reign. I've kind of always sensed they would be near time fulfillments but also key nations to emerge at the end of the age of grace.

If the above is correct, then the timing seems interesting. It was something I was not all that able to figure out too well. But I was thinking about it lately, and if this sort of thing interests any, to me, it would seem kind of interesting of late because of what happened in Syria. Syria is not mentioned in Ez 38. And recently its military has had to come to a place of complete reorginization. Why that interests me is because of Daniels second animal, the bear.

CONJECTURE
If the bear is Russia, then it seems to borrow its long history with a focus on one future moment. Perhaps Ez 38. If the bear is a picture of Russia in Ez 38, then this suggests something about the future end time age use perhaps of these animals. The bear has three ribs in its mouth. Those who see it as Russia see those ribs as countries Russia had control over but gained independence. That focus would be, "why are the ribs in his mouth?" And the focus be: "those under the power or influence of Russia that is not Russia. Now this would make sense if those 3 ribs might be: Turkey, Iran, and Syria. The first two would imply the ribs want bigger military giant Russia to lead the charge. Russia, Turkey, and Iran had been meeting in Astania, Kazakastan (the region known to Josepus as Magag). The purpose for the annual meetings was over Syria. So if Syria is not in Ez 38, and recently lost its organized military status, it places Syria in an unique position potentially.

Is it possible that Syria is the 3rd rib in Russia's mouth asking for power attack of Israel, but not involved with Ez 38 because it does not have military capacity yet? And if so, might that suggest how near to Ez 38 things might be? Well this is just something I was considering yesterday. What for me was more difficult was the Leopard if end time nation. Because it does not really fit anything well enough. But if Russia is dipicted as an end time nation with a photo op of Ez 38, then timing kind of makes a bit more sense in regards to the placement of these four animals...if...they are end time nations too.

TIMELINE

Lion -- America -- Age of Democracy and Refinement of the West (from 1776 concept to its Role in potential Ez 38 Set-up...Israel's Peace and Safety/Abraham Accords)
Bear -- Russia -- Leading Nation of Ez 38. Not sure of why prompted up on one side in that sense. But Maybe leaning toward its being "hooked."
Leapard -- Infant government emerging during first half of tribulaiton (during the rise of Antichrist)
Dragon -- Second half of tribulation dynasty

In that sense we would have 2 ruling nations from the age of grace (America/Russia) and 2 ruling styles during the tribulation: The first half & the second half. Just some thoughts if any might consider to weigh in. Blessings.

 

[KMendel]

Well, TCC, I'm not sure you are correct in saying "most Christians - including us on the forum" - don't recognize the bear as Russia.
I have ALWAYS considered the bear as being Russia, and I would venture a guess that many here on the board would be in agreement.
Maybe we're not all as limited as you seem to think we are. Don't mean to sound snarky................but............

 

[TCC]

Glad to hear. In part, I would think there is enough consideration on our forum for me to post it. But in general, what I mean is that if you look at commentaries it is very very rare that you will see anything other than: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome+. This seems to always be the case for the huge most part. If I have given the impression this forum may not be open to other considerations, I apologize. I was not intending to.

But in reference to that, I come with a whole host of different eschatology than mainstream evangelicalism. And I would not fault any for not seeing my views upon that. So whenever I might, I try to include that to afford for differences. So if I come across that way, I apologize. But really any of that from me is meant more in honoring that I come to this forum with huge eschatological differences in general. And knowing that just wanting to be self aware honorable. Because my views are quite different not from just this forum but all of evangelicalism.

But I am glad you shared that (brother? Sister?).

What kind of blew me away in considering this was wow, what if that bear emblem = Ez 38 moment? I had thought that years ago...but I was even thinking that way a stretch. But what refreshed that for me was wondering if those three ribs might relate to the AC downing three kings. But as I sobered up from that, it would not be likely those three kings would be telling the AC to kill much flesh---meaning themselves...lol. That would be ridiculous prophetic interpretation. But I did hold a concern if Putin might be AC because of those three ribs for a good 5 minutes. And that is whey it kind of made a bit more sense in that God might be capturing an end time nation in their most profound to prophecy movement. If true, wow, that is pretty amazing.

Also what would be new for me in my thoughts last night would be that the Leopard be not known yet because it could well be governing conditions in the 1st half of the tribulation prior to the dragon government rule. Which also fascinated me in that if so, we would have 2 nations from the age of grace and 2 ruling types from the tribulation. Which is a pretty stable balance of imagery if true. In any event thanks for weighing-in. I appreciate it Blessings.

PS -- by the way...any thoughts on the bear being propt up on one side if Russia?

 

[Andy C]

From the late, and current resident in Heaven, Jack Kelley

“The beasts of Daniel 7 are God’s view of Gentile Dominion, earlier symbolized from man’s point of view by the polymetallic statue of Daniel 2. Each of the animals in Daniel 7 has characteristics that clearly point to the four kingdoms represented in the statue of Daniel 2. Babylon’s symbol was a lion with Eagle’s wings. The bear with one side raised up above the other signifies Media-Persia where Persia became the more dominant partner. The four headed leopard is Greece under the rule of the four generals who succeeded Alexander. The terrifying beast with 10 horns that Daniel couldn’t describe is Rome in both its 1st and 2nd appearances. Daniel 7 shows the anti-Christ arising from this beast. Additionally, both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 describe the Lord’s everlasting kingdom following the fourth one.

Seeing the four beasts of Daniel 7 as anything different than another view of the 4 nations of Gentile dominion requires a substantial re-interpretation of the chapter, and is inconsistent with what we know of history”.

Comparing Daniel 2 And Daniel 7 – Grace thru faith

gracethrufaith.com

 

[Greg]

I think of Andy Woods on this -- the Bible interprets itself, and Daniel explicitly does so. Anyone wishing to take it further and read current events into it -- have fun and maybe you'll be right. For me, I guess there are other things to chew on, and increasingly I tend to be very cautious and conservative having seen many in the watcher community go all in on some speculative things. But yeah, at times I also speculate with the best (or worst) of them.

 

[1LoverofGod]

Gog and Magog war has nothing to do with the Daniel 2&7 animals in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.
Rosh of Ezekiel 38 being referenced to Russia doesn't mean Putin is Gog. He may be "Goggish" but Gog is mearly the title of the leader of Rosh. The symbol of the bear for today's Russia doesn't come from the Daniel 2 and 7 animals or kingdoms they represent. Ezekiel 38 is a different prophecy from the four kingdoms mentioned in Daniel.
Just clarifying this because somehow the topic of the animals of Daniel got tied in with the Ezekiel 38 Gog and Magog prophecy because of Rosh being identified as Russia and it having the bear as it's symbol but it's not related to Daniel's prophecy of the four kingdoms whatsoever

 

[Margery]

From the late, and current resident in Heaven, Jack Kelley

“The beasts of Daniel 7 are God’s view of Gentile Dominion, earlier symbolized from man’s point of view by the polymetallic statue of Daniel 2. Each of the animals in Daniel 7 has characteristics that clearly point to the four kingdoms represented in the statue of Daniel 2. Babylon’s symbol was a lion with Eagle’s wings. The bear with one side raised up above the other signifies Media-Persia where Persia became the more dominant partner. The four headed leopard is Greece under the rule of the four generals who succeeded Alexander. The terrifying beast with 10 horns that Daniel couldn’t describe is Rome in both its 1st and 2nd appearances. Daniel 7 shows the anti-Christ arising from this beast. Additionally, both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 describe the Lord’s everlasting kingdom following the fourth one.

Seeing the four beasts of Daniel 7 as anything different than another view of the 4 nations of Gentile dominion requires a substantial re-interpretation of the chapter, and is inconsistent with what we know of history”.

Comparing Daniel 2 And Daniel 7 – Grace thru faith

gracethrufaith.com

I LOVE Jack's work, and I'm always glad to see it pop up. He was a very clear thinker and teacher. I miss the fact that he is gone from us, to be with the Lord but so glad his wife keeps up his site.

That lopsided bear is Media-Persia and the 3 ribs it was crunching away on are Babylon, Egypt and Lydia- all 3 of which were conquered by the MedoPersian Empire. As Jack said, one side of the dual Medes and Persians Empire, dominated the other. It's very clearly laid out in the history books- but in Daniels time it was yet to come.

 

[KMendel]

Thank you, Andy and Margery, for bringing this info to us!! I've been ill-informed on this. Now it makes more sense to me.

 

[TCC]

@KMendel I'd ask you to consider the last three posts. In relation to saying that most of Christianity would not see the bear animal vision as Russia. And these views don't really leave room for consideration. This is generally how most Christians believe. Am I imagining that @KMendel?

Thanks to the example Andy's awesome quote from Jack. I actually really like the quote. But in the last part of it it says: "Seeing the four beasts of Daniel 7 as anything different than another view of the 4 nations of Gentile dominion requires a substantial re-interpretation of the chapter, and is inconsistent with what we know of history." What is actually really cool about Jack's focus is how he seems to imply the reality that there will be strong indicators in the gentile world proving prophecy. God using the gentile world to somewhat upstage Israel as being the main way God used to convey biblical truth. A fascinating overture intended or not.

Now I agree with the historical use of the animals. Possibly with the exception of Babylon. Not for the reason of the Lion w/wings emblamtic match. But Daniel is not written in sequel order. Even still chapter 7 comes after chapter 4. This chapter was well after the event of chapter 4. So it would seem that this vision includes a past event along with future pro;hecy. What I don't believe I have ever seen is anyone demonstrating biblical prophesy of the future that includes the past as part of it. To be fair, we do see commentators doing that with parts of Revelation. Like the Rev 12 sign and also the kings in Rev 17. It is understandable why it is thought like that. But the probablem with using those kinds of passages to affirm that prophesy of the future can include the past do not have full enough fulfillment to with certainty make that claim. So if there is a definite example from scripture outside of conjecture where prophesy of the future includes the past, I'd like to see it. I've never seen that.

I believe Andy's quote of Jack is helpful to demonstrate that I have reasonable mental equilibrium to consider that most believers would track like how Jack sees it. And Jack may be correct. But what tips the scale in a direction where we might consider not is not where Jack is demonstrating an exegetical way of thinking. He just makes no room for what is somewhat common in scripture. That God often uses a near term event (like Antiacus) to affirm the legitimacy of a later greater fulfillment (like the antichrist during the tribulation). I understand Jack's concern of hair brain ideas that might attempt to reinterpret the Daniel 7 chapter. But in his making that statement, it to me is somewhat a logic fallacy to suggest that it would be wrong to interpret Daniel 7 differently than how Jack is looking at. In scholarship there is always variance. But the way Jack expressed his point was similar to being a long the lines of assuming one's interpretation is ultra solid. Yet it does not take into account the problem of being certain that prophecy of the future includes events of the past. With the statue it is clearly laid out. Most of the Daniel 7 chapter leans toward end times thousands of years in the future. At least in the actual thesis of why Daniel is being told that. So, just saying.

. . . . .

Greg brings up a good point too, in that there are many opinions about prophecy that go way off the rails today. We have no shortage of them. So in that sense there is a general moratorium to back away from giving any credence to consider Russia as the bear. In the sense Greg is coming from, in general I agree. Which is why I would look at the scenorio in a hopefully more wholistic way. As well as bringing that opportunity to the forum. Where perhaps appropriate.

On Andy Woods, I would like to say something there in respect to this though. I love Andy. He has helped me a lot along the way out of reformed thought. I believe I have heard no less than 200 sermons of the man in just the past few years. I would also agree in the bible interpreting itself. But this does not always solve a problem by saying that to the extent we might use our own sense upon things to see in what way scripture does that. For example in Rev 13 we see those 3 animals again. To what affect? To no effect?

I consider Andy Woods a very solid bible teacher. However, his view of the mustard tree I would see is somewhat of a slight violation of his own principle (that the word interprets itself). Because the thinking behind his view on the mustard seed is that it grows into a jaded kingdom because the mustard plant does not organically grow into a tree. So he sees that as hyperbole. And because of that he sees the mustard seed plant to suggest that the kingdom in that view includes false believers. And distorted Christianity. In part the logic that goes with that is leaven always being used to describe sin (as a counter balancing metaphor from another parable). But using the bible to interpret itself would realize the wave offering included leavn bread. And the wave offering is for the holiday of pentecost. So I would see the sense of seeing leaven as always being sin to not be wholistic though. Again, there, just saying.

. . . . .

In the last post it references Daniel 2 and 7 as Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Yet chapter 7 is years after Nebuchadnezzar's death. I understand what is meant. But these two visions are typically merged together, and we just moved on. This is the primary approach in commentaries. And it is why I would say what I did (however I might have) about most believers (and it would seem that includes a significant portion of this forum too) would just leave the animals as matching the statue and history. The end.

The other point brought up there is actually something I left on the table too for a while. The point about Rosh. Rosh Hashanah = head of the year. Some believe Russia is in Ez 38 because of Rosh. But that is not how I get there. In that post there is a level of certainty of what the Bear symbol is not. And this I find to be common in commentaries too. So just saying @KMendel, its not just me.

Whether or not the bear represents Russia and/or Ezekiel 38 is likely not determinable to large effect, amen. But the reason I would surmise on that level is not to build weird theology. Or posture random rabbit trails. It's just that if there is or might be a correlation, it would inform upon other arenas in consideration. Such as timing, season, sequence etc. of things perhaps associated with our age. For me its more of a postulate for other considerations. But the entertaining of the Bear as Russia can, as we have seen, meet of very stiff opposition. Perhaps even as it should or might. So outside of your gracious weigh-in @KMendel, we didn't get very far, lol, did we?

As for Russia in Ezekiel 38, I would hope to leave this as potential edification. Because there is merit to it. Whether ultimately if Russia is involved in Ez 38 of course is in God's hands. They certianly are lined up though rather well these days for such a reasoned position potential. But the way I get Russia in Ez 38 is not Rosh. The common denominator is actually: The Scythians.

Now there is quite a bit of history to that people. They ruled various areas above the black sea for centuries. There is a mention on the Great Wall of China in opposition to Magog. Although there were a lot of nomads China sought to keep our by building their wall, it would seem the region at that time known as Magog got some special focus by China. Throughout the Millenial prior to the 1st century, Scythians had vast arenas of rule depending on what century you look at. In some cases it was most of the territory of Russia all the way down to the Great Wall of China. But Josephus is especially helpful here. In his historic account, he understood Magag, in the 1st century, to be Kazakastan. Which is pretty irrelevant in modern day eschatological consideration. But there are those who are familiar with this.

The people most known in the 1st century to reside at the time of Josephus were the Scythains. Now, if we visit Russia, they have exhibits in museums that celebrate the Scythians as their cherished ancestors. And this is something you can find online as well. Russia considers themselves descendants of Scythians. To make matters more intriguing, Russia, Turkey, and Iran formed an alliance of sorts in 2017. This was to help solve the trouble region of Syria during the days of all those refugees. Russia, Turkey, and Iran would meet once a year in the city of Anastasia Kazakestan. I would recommend checking that city out if not familiar. It is quite intriguing. But in general, what we have is the leader of a nation that considers themselves ancestors of the people Josephus identified as Magag. Meeting in the Josephus area known as Magog every year. And the countries Russia met with were Iran and Turkey (two of the major players in Ezekiel 38). So its not like it is some random view that Rosh is Russia because it sounds like it. The history surrounding this issue is far deeper. Far more telling as to hugely suggests Russia.

Now that in and of itself does not make Daniels bear Russia. Granted. But what I have hopefully demonstrated at least in meager part is there is more to the story than necessarily leaving it where commentaries mostly do. Because if aspects of Daniels chapter 7 prophesy belong in our day (and Rev 13 would suggest they might...using those same animals...interpreting itself), then maybe considering some things for discussion sake is not necessarily the same as entertaining romote rabbit trials that for sure are prevelent today in eschatology.

. . . .


I appreciate however far we might have made it on this point. And it is clear there are dangers in romancing too much of scripture for our own good. Amen. To the extent thee might be some research down the road to bring helpful other features, that would be cool too. Blessings.

 

[Margery]

Ezek 38: Russia does see their foundations within Magog or the Scythians. Rosh in Hebrew means head or prince. While a few earlier prophecy teachers looked at the similarity of the sound- the identity of Russia in Ezek 38 and 39 is based geographically (you can't get much further north than Russia as seen from Jerusalem) and ethnically.

That means Russia is in Ezek 38 and 39. Most scholars agree with that.



That does NOT mean that Daniel's beasts connect to Ezek 38.



To use the old rule "when the plain sense of Scripture makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up with nonsense".



Russia in Ezek 38 is not pictured as a bear or in fact as an empire. Gog (chief prince) of Magog (Magog means the Scythians and their descendants which encompass Ukraine, the southern steppes of Russia, parts of Turkey and a lot of the "stans" of the former USSR- it is not just Kazakhstan or the other stans)

The Great Wall does have a history of being referenced as the Ramparts of Gog and Magog and was built in part to keep that bunch of marauders out. Little history gem, this is where the Cossacks come in- and they are revered as part of Russia to this day.

George and I knew a very very old retired Russian Cossack who served in the White Army during the Revolution (I met him back when G & I were newly married) He was pretty ancient at that time. He was a treasure in the Russian community down in Vancouver. He wasn't up to storming the Great Wall of China but he did try to stop the Russian Revolution.




As for the beasts of Daniel and Revelation 13 this is too long a reply for me to give here right now. I agree with Jack Kelly and with got questions here: What are the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7? | GotQuestions.org

Just let me say this

Whenever a new controversial opinion or interpretation is being considered the burden of proof doesn't lie with the standard accepted interpretation, it lies with the person bringing up a new idea.

In other words the new idea has to prove itself thru Scripture before it is considered. This is what the Bereans did with Paul. Acts 17:11 They searched the scriptures to see if these things (the new ideas Paul was telling them about) were so. Acts tells us this SHOULD be the way we treat new information

We saw that happen over the past 2 decades with Bill Salus and his Psalm 83 theory. He had to go thru a lot of proof texts and answer why the standard interpretation might need to be revised a bit to allow his interpretation on Psalm 83. That process is still going on.

Jack Kelley's view above IS a summary of the standard interpretation, as is the Got Questions answer and they sum up the position that most scholars hold to.

To allow any new interpretation, first the person bringing it must answer why their theory stands up to Bible scrutiny, why it fits the text (AND HISTORY) better than others.

And so far history and other Bible texts line up with the standard interpretation- that Jack Kelly outlines, and God Questions as well.

"when the plain sense of Scripture makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up with nonsense".

 

[TCC]

Ezek 38: Russia does see their foundations within Magog or the Scythians. Rosh in Hebrew means head or prince. While a few earlier prophecy teachers looked at the similarity of the sound- the identity of Russia in Ezek 38 and 39 is based geographically (you can't get much further north than Russia as seen from Jerusalem) and ethnically.

That means Russia is in Ezek 38 and 39. Most scholars agree with that.



That does NOT mean that Daniel's beasts connect to Ezek 38.



To use the old rule "when the plain sense of Scripture makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up with nonsense".



Russia in Ezek 38 is not pictured as a bear or in fact as an empire. Gog (chief prince) of Magog (Magog means the Scythians and their descendants which encompass Ukraine, the southern steppes of Russia, parts of Turkey and a lot of the "stans" of the former USSR- it is not just Kazakhstan or the other stans)

The Great Wall does have a history of being referenced as the Ramparts of Gog and Magog and was built in part to keep that bunch of marauders out. Little history gem, this is where the Cossacks come in- and they are revered as part of Russia to this day.

George and I knew a very very old retired Russian Cossack who served in the White Army during the Revolution (back when we were newly married) He was pretty ancient at that time. He was a treasure in the Russian community down in Vancouver. He wasn't up to storming the Great Wall of China but he did try to stop the Russian Revolution.




As for the beasts of Daniel and Revelation 13 this is too long a reply for me to give here right now. I agree with Jack Kelly and with got questions here: What are the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7? | GotQuestions.org

Just let me say this

Whenever a new controversial opinion or interpretation is being considered the burden of proof doesn't lie with the standard accepted interpretation, it lies with the person bringing up a new idea.

In other words the new idea has to prove itself thru Scripture before it is considered. This is what the Bereans did with Paul. Acts 17:11 They searched the scriptures to see if these things (the new ideas Paul was telling them about) were so. Acts tells us this SHOULD be the way we treat new information

We saw that happen over the past 12 decades with Bill Salus and his Psalm 83 theory. He had to go thru a lot of proof texts and answer why the standard interpretation might need to be revised a bit to allow his interpretation on Psalm 83. That process is still going on.

Jack Kelley's view above IS a summary of the standard interpretation, the one that most scholars hold to. To allow any new interpretation, first the person bringing it must answer why their theory stands up to Bible scrutiny, why it fits the text (AND HISTORY) better than others.

And so far history and other Bible texts line up with the standard interpretation.

"when the plain sense of Scripture makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up with nonsense".

Thanks Margory. Appreciate the additional history. Awesome As I noted in personal reply, I am fine with leaving it at the feet of commentaries. However, it could also be noted that proof of commentaries limiting the 4 animals to not having any potential sense of dual prophetic meaning in light of Rev 13 could qualify for lacking in affirming well enough the solidity of their views. We settle on them because we see it historically. And if the book of Revelation did not come along with them again, I suppose that would be enough. But to conclude that those commentary views with such ascertion made, in my humble estimation, would equally qualify as controversial. For the omittion of Rev 13 relationship, and the lack of scholarly expertise to explain how prophesies of the future necessarily include the past. On that note, just saying, you don't see too many commentaries (that I know of) explain that Daniel 7 is years after Nebu's death.

So the way I look at it is it is settled science in the sense we see its major import in antiquity. Amen. As for if there is more to come (or that has developed a long the way), we can only consider. The reason I just say this is because sense of conclusive answer should never be completely enhouased is seeing too much certainty where reasonable hermeneutic had been lacking and not really addressed at all by scholars. Almost as if they would be the final word without helping the reader better understand the past being in future prophesies and why Rev 13 in a non-starter. Those are enough hermenuetically to observe in part that commentaries themselves may fail the test beyond controversy, by that same standard. Me thinks, anyways.

I understand this is accepted to keep the crazies out. lol. And like I said, best to leave it there. Just for the record though, I agree the bear as Russia as a picture of Ez 38 is lacking. The reason, to me, is prompt up on one side. There really is no way currently to substantiate that. So as appealing as a story form of sorts as those animals might tell, Russia prompt up on one side has no referent. And if something is prophetic, it would have that element. Perhaps something in the future could surface on that. But we have nothing like that tangible on the radar. The other thing too is if those animals are post 1st century (aside from the dragon), it would be a curious case as to why just 2 possibly in the age of grace--perhaps so close to a tribulaiton timeframe. One being Russia. Sure they make headlines. So really what led me to the consideration of Ez 38 was, "why?" Like what about Russia matters? Not Ukraine.

So yeah, it was just a question in the event others might have looked into other things on that. Although for sure we can understand why we don't pin the tail of animal prophesies on current nations willy nilly...lol. Amen. Like some have stretched to do with the Leapard and Germany. But for me, it was not so much about random animal pinings, as it was about what seems to be forming in the middle east and such regarding Ez 38 potential status. So I appreciate the comments and posts. It is where we are in our eschatological concept. And I appreciate this forum for allowing the question to be explored. Amen. Blessings.

 

[Margery]

We settle on the commentaries and these normal positions on subjects precisely because they actually do line up with Scripture- not just history.

The burden to prove any new position always rests on the person with the new idea.

First as Acts says- the new person (Paul) has to prove it from Scripture- this is what Paul did

- and SECOND after that -the hearers HAVE TO GO TO SCRIPTURE to see if what Paul said lines up.

 

[KMendel]

I am grateful to Margerie and Andy for sharing the info on Daniel's Animals...............very enlightening.
Is it not possible that Daniel's Animals were given to us to secure that info in light of ancient history and a
prophetic view - but, in today's age we can also see the same animals representing current countries and
governments???? Many times in the bible prophecies are carried out in two parts............perhaps this is the
second part of those prophecies?? Something we can relate to in the here and now??

On another note, we have to be careful that we don't let our imaginations run away with us........
I could say California is the bear because we have a bear on our state flag. We do need to go back to scripture
to make sure we are on the right track and not just grasping at straws. I have always seen - in these CURRENT times
- that the bear could be Russia, the eagle could be the USA, the lions could be Great Britain. I never really knew who
the leopard represented...........

Please notice, TCC, how short my reply is............

QuoteReply
Re

 

[TCC]

I am grateful to Margerie and Andy for sharing the info on Daniel's Animals...............very enlightening.
Is it not possible that Daniel's Animals were given to us to secure that info in light of ancient history and a
prophetic view - but, in today's age we can also see the same animals representing current countries and
governments???? Many times in the bible prophecies are carried out in two parts............perhaps this is the
second part of those prophecies?? Something we can relate to in the here and now??

On another note, we have to be careful that we don't let our imaginations run away with us........
I could say California is the bear because we have a bear on our state flag. We do need to go back to scripture
to make sure we are on the right track and not just grasping at straws. I have always seen - in these CURRENT times
- that the bear could be Russia, the eagle could be the USA, the lions could be Great Britain. I never really knew who
the leopard represented...........

Please notice, TCC, how short my reply is............

QuoteReply
Re

lol. Noted. As per my discussion with Margery, I am honoring the core of this to settle with the commentaries. Not that I agree that is where Daniel 7 stops. This thread was just an attempt to discuss in event others might have research beyond the conventional views. A pastor at my old church said he was converted in part by Daniel 7's accuracy historically. Noting the rarity in the world of what actual prophecy looks like. So there are awesome strong points even in leaving at the commentary level.

I agree K. too that we need to be careful. What that might look like from my perspective is that I would be surprised if Germany turns out to be the Leopard. That seemed to water down how prophesy radiates in profound fashion. Much like those with views that the seal judgements are birth pangs leaving them outside the tribulation proper. Some even see seals over centuries occuring. I believe accurate fulfillment won't leave us guessing. As for the Leopard, where I land on that (if there be dual prophesy) is likely during the tribulation. We may never know (this side of eternity) even if dual prophesy if valid there. There is that Leopard Statue with 2 wings at the UN. So I guess we'll have to wait for them to add two more...and more heads to boot. That wasa joke. As all of us got a taste of the UN in all her glory via COVID, perhaps that kind of thing will be in the infant stage of tribulation ruling class of the day. In general though I am far less interested in what things are or become then.The age we live in is remarkable enough, amen. Again thanks for all who participated in the thread. Blessings.

 

[TCC]

Just an update. In my earlier post (which update option expired recently) I said Anastasia Kazakastain. I think that is actually like an Instagram account or something...lol. The correct name of the city is: Astana.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

That is the a video of it. Its pretty well done. The guy does it from a neutral point of view. Just under 13 minutes. But some of the darker videos on it get into some wild details about it. Unfortunately they tend to stray off into bad language. So if interested, this one I believe is pretty G rated. Blessings.