Perfection, when will we gain it?

[mattfivefour]

Those who continue in sin are those who work iniquity, you must turn from sin and turn to Christ and allow the transformation of the Holy Spirit and have its fruits and thus put on His robe of righteousness, or you will hear the words at the second coming from Christ Himself, 'I never knew you, depart from me....'

The robe of righteousness is put on by faith, not by effort. It comes entirely from Christ, not from us. We do not work it in; the Holy Spirit works it out.
And the practical outworking of the nature of Christ is His work as we yield more and more to Him ... which is a progressive work as He reveals more and more of ourselves to us. This is why Paul went from considering himself as the least of the apostles (1 Corinthians 15:9) at the beginning of his ministry to the least of the saints (Ephesians 3:8) in the middle of his ministry to the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15) near the end of his life. For closer we draw to Him the more we see our own inability and the weaknesses of our flesh and the glory of His perfection and His provision for us. Indeed, the longer we walk with Him the more we experience and appreciate His grace. As the old hymn says: the longer we serve Him, the sweeter He grows!

Anyway, I sense perhaps you are SDA in your beliefs. Do you, perchance, hold to the doctrine of Last Generation Theology?

 

[Hobie]

Including yourself as one who no longer sins?

I guess you've never seen a individual with an inherited 'Latin temper', the Irish know, need I say more.... All I can say is I pray in faith, but I am on the road to sanctification with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hobie]

Hi Hobie, I too am curious about about how you view your position IN Christ according to scripture. It appears from your posts that you believe we must attain some level of sinlessness in our own effort to be considered justified before God. Or that we must maintain it in our own effort in order to be considered worthy of salvation.

I noticed you linked to a Seventh Day Adventist article, do you consider yourself an Adventist?
IMO, someone who is eschewing evil in their own effort outside of resting in Christ's finished work is still leaning on Law instead of Grace through Faith to try and merit their own salvation (and sanctification).
The two are incompatible.

Galatians 2:16
New King James Version
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Yes, but to faithful followers, Christ and His truth are what matters, not a label. Now, no one is justified by the law, but by faith, and it is the work of the Holy Spirit. So what does it say on those are led by the Spiirt...

Galatians 5:22
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[Hobie]

From Romans Chapter 7. Do you believe that the Apostle Paul was saved?

13Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but howto perform what is good I do not find. 19For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Look at the whole picture and tell me if this is the actions of a saved saint...

Acts 7
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 8
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Paul had to face a actual intervention by Christ Himself, a absolute shock of a magnitude not many see. And we see what Christ as He is clear
that you have to go beyond and surpass even the righteousness of the literal law, to what He gives as the underlying basis of the Law, which is Love.

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 22:36-40
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This is clear, being under to law to Christ is beyond the level of the literal law, that it surpasses even what the Jews and their teachers thought it was and followed. The entire law, including both moral and ceremonial aspects, revealed by God, existed with a view to the coming of Christ at that point in history. The law was intended by God to keep before the minds of Israel and men everywhere that the real meaning and purpose of the law lay in the full and final revelation when Christ would come to this world. And what does Christ say, He says that ones righteousness would go beyond the law if one wanted to enter into heavenly kingdom and eternal life.

 

[Hobie]

The robe of righteousness is put on by faith, not by effort. It comes entirely from Christ, not from us. We do not work it in; the Holy Spirit works it out.
And the practical outworking of the nature of Christ is His work as we yield more and more to Him ... which is a progressive work as He reveals more and more of ourselves to us. This is why Paul went from considering himself as the least of the apostles (1 Corinthians 15:9) at the beginning of his ministry to the least of the saints (Ephesians 3:8) in the middle of his ministry to the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15) near the end of his life. For closer we draw to Him the more we see our own inability and the weaknesses of our flesh and the glory of His perfection and His provision for us. Indeed, the longer we walk with Him the more we experience and appreciate His grace. As the old hymn says: the longer we serve Him, the sweeter He grows!

Anyway, I sense perhaps you are SDA in your beliefs. Do you, perchance, hold to the doctrine of Last Generation Theology?

We still have freewill to choose, God does not take that away. I am Adventist, and I dont go by a label of LGT but am studying to see what Gods Word says, as there is no harm in that. And we see..

1 Corinthians 1:7-8
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Andiamo]

Look at the whole picture and tell me if this is the actions of a saved saint...

Acts 7
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 8
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Paul had to face a actual intervention by Christ Himself, a absolute shock of a magnitude not many see. And we see what Christ as He is clear
that you have to go beyond and surpass even the righteousness of the literal law, to what He gives as the underlying basis of the Law, which is Love.

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 22:36-40
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This is clear, being under to law to Christ is beyond the level of the literal law, that it surpasses even what the Jews and their teachers thought it was and followed. The entire law, including both moral and ceremonial aspects, revealed by God, existed with a view to the coming of Christ at that point in history. The law was intended by God to keep before the minds of Israel and men everywhere that the real meaning and purpose of the law lay in the full and final revelation when Christ would come to this world. And what does Christ say, He says that ones righteousness would go beyond the law if one wanted to enter into heavenly kingdom and eternal life.

My point was, look at how the Apostle Paul describes the battle with his sin in that passage of Romans. Upthread it seemed that you were alluding to a performance based salvation. If our performance mattered when it comes to our position IN Christ, even the apostle Paul would be cast from the Lord’s presence as evidenced in the passage of Romans I posted.
Do you believe that the Apostle Paul will be cast from the Lord’s presence? Read the passage in Romans and answer yes or no.

 

[Hobie]

My point was, look at how the Apostle Paul describes the battle with his sin in that passage of Romans. Upthread it seemed that you were alluding to a performance based salvation. If our performance mattered when it comes to our position IN Christ, even the apostle Paul would be cast from the Lord’s presence as evidenced in the passage of Romans I posted.

I saw it, and its a hard battle, I struggle daily, but once on the road to sanctification the changes come. Now the true character of faith with its resulting work will be what declares whether Christ is in us, we wont continue in sin and iniquity if we are Christs. My question would be, why Christians would want to continue in the walk of the flesh and into its wages when they claim Christ

 

[Kem]

And Andiamo's point was "Do you believe that the Apostle Paul will be cast from the Lord’s presence? Read the passage in Romans and answer yes or no."

 

[Andiamo]

And Andiamo's point was "Do you believe that the Apostle Paul will be cast from the Lord’s presence? Read the passage in Romans and answer yes or no."

Yes Hobie, this is the bottom line I am trying to point you to here.
I absolutely adore this passage. I thank Almighty God that He inspired Paul to write it.
We should all desire to win the battles of sin in our lives. But these battles have zero effect on our salvation…our position IN Christ which was accomplished by Him and Him alone on the cross.
Read the passage and answer, Hobie.
Will the Apostle Paul be cast away from the Lord?

 

[Hobie]

And Andiamo's point was "Do you believe that the Apostle Paul will be cast from the Lord’s presence? Read the passage in Romans and answer yes or no."

Thats up to God, doesnt matter what I believe..

 

[Andiamo]

Thats up to God, doesnt matter what I believe..

It absolutely does matter what you believe. Belief and faith in what Jesus, God the Son, accomplished for us on the cross and His resurrection from the dead is the entire basis of Christianity.

 

[Kem]

Since we do know that God Himself directly inspired the Bible and we know that the Bible is absolute truth I will post what God has to say about Paul through Paul's mouth.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:7-8

 

[Hobie]

Yes Hobie, this is the bottom line I am trying to point you to here.
I absolutely adore this passage. I thank Almighty God that He inspired Paul to write it.
We should all desire to win the battles of sin in our lives. But these battles have zero effect on our salvation…our position IN Christ which was accomplished by Him and Him alone on the cross.
Read the passage and answer, Hobie.
Will the Apostle Paul be cast away from the Lord?

And how is one IN Christ? Certainly not continuing in sin and iniquity and lust of the flesh as Christ makes clear...

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[Matthew6:33]

Thats up to God, doesnt matter what I believe..

It does matter what you believe. The wrong belief can have you believing errant doctrine and on the path to hell when you die.

As we have learned recently in the news, God may call us to account at any moment.

Not something to just throw your hands in the air and just say 'well its up to God it doesn't matter what I believe'

God has given you what you need if you are really seeking Him.

 

[Hobie]

It absolutely does matter what you believe. Belief and faith in what Jesus, God the Son, accomplished for us on the cross and His resurrection from the dead is the entire basis of Christianity.

God is the absolute Judge on these matters, not man.

 

[Andiamo]

God is the absolute Judge on these matters, not man.

What does He judge? Our behavior? Or our position IN Christ, which is not earned but received by trusting in His magnificent work on the cross…the sacrifice of Himself?

 

[Matthew6:33]

Why did Jesus die on the cross for my sins and say 'it is finished' if it was not finished?

 

[Hobie]

It does matter what you believe. The wrong belief can have you believing errant doctrine and on the path to hell when you die.

As we have leaned recently God may call us to account at any moment.

Not something to just throw your hands in the air and just say 'well its up to God'

Then let me ask you, do you think its the correct path to continue in sin and iniquity to say nothing of believing we can continue in it and not pay its wages?

 

[Hobie]

We all know what Paul says in Romans 6:23

 

[Andy C]

God is the absolute Judge on these matters, not man.

I do feel bad for you that you cant live your life with the assurance of salvation. I cant imagine going through life wondering if I did enough, did I sin one too many times…..etc. Instead, I daily thank my Lord Jesus for what HE did for me, something I could never earn by my own attempts at being good.