Other end-times discussion

[Kaatje]

The sons of God were fallen angels. Prove me wrong

Here is my study I once did, on the Nephilim.
I must make a caveat, that it is per definition conjecture, because the Bible says not litterally that angels mated with women. So I am not dogmatic about it.


Nephilim

For this study, I used multiple resources, but lets start with the Hebrew roots.

“Nefilim” is the plural of “Nafil” The root-verb is “nafal” which means to fall.

Genesis 6:4
There were Nephilim in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men of old, men of renown.

Genesis 6:2-4 in the Jewish Tanakh
When men began to increase on earth and daughters were born to them, the divine beings saw how beautiful the daughters of men were and they took wives from among those that pleased them. It was then, and later too, that the Nephilim appeared on earth – when the divine beings cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown.”

“The sons of God” is used in different places in Scripture and means Angels.
When Satan, (once the angel Lucifer - lightbearer) rebelled against God and fell from heaven (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28), one third of the angels joined him (Revelation 12:3-4,9).

Also, Jude 1:6 tells us the angels who sinned abandoned their origins. That means they no longer kept the form given to angels in Heaven and instead took on the form of humans on Earth. This is something angels have the ability to do, but only under God’s direction for the purpose of ministering to us (Hebrews 1:14). Having human form gave them the ability to mate with human women.

So, the sons of God were fallen angels, who procreated with human females. However, while spiritual beings, they can appear in human, physical form (Mark 16:5). The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to have sex with the two angels who were with Lot (Genesis 19:1-5). It is plausible that angels are capable of taking on human form, even to the point of replicating human sexuality and possibly even reproduction.

So why do the fallen angels not do this more often? It seems that God imprisoned the fallen angels who committed this evil sin, so that the other fallen angels would not do the same (as described in Jude 6). Earlier Hebrew interpreters and apocryphal and pseudopigraphal writings are unanimous in holding to the view that fallen angels are the “sons of God” mentioned in Genesis 6:1-4.

Nefilim after the flood

Genesis 6:4
There were Nephilim in the earth in those days; and also after that…

Numbers 13:3.
And there we saw the Nefilim, the sons of Anak, who come from the Nefilim; and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Anak can, but doesn’t have to be, a name. The word “anak” means “giant” in Hebrew, so it could be translated as giant people or giant beings.
(Compare to son of Adam - human being)

So it seems that while the Flood wiped out all the Nefilim and their offspring, some of their DNA survived. If you look at the lineage of Shem, Ham and Japheth, you see where the tribes of the Giants come from.

The lineage of the post-flood giants can be traced specifically to three of Ham’s sons, Cush, Mizraim and Canaan.

And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim, And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim. – Genesis 10:13-14.

In verse 14 we have the first mention of the Phillistines (whose forefather was Phillistim), the nation of the giant Goliath. Calshuhim was the father of Phillistim and his family later resided in Capthor in the Promised Land. So we see the direct origins of the Philistines, one of the most heated enemies of the Israelites, who also carried the Nephilim gene.

And Mizraim begat Ludim, And Canaan begat Sidon his first born, and Heth, And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite, — Genesis 10:14-16.

The Jebusites, the Amorites and Gegusites (all cousins of Nimrod), are mentioned time and time again with reference to the Israelites capturing the Promised Land. These families were usurpers in the Promised Land and carried the Nephilim gene. This is why God instructed the Israelites to deal mercilessly with these nations.

When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. — Deuteronomy 7:1-3.

Notice that God describes these nations as “greater and mightier than thou” to the Israelites. The physical and military advantage was clearly on the side of the enemies of God – the nations that were home to the Nephilim giants. But what gave the Israelites the ultimate edge was that The Lord Himself was going to supernaturally intervene early on in the conflict to deliver the enemies of Israel so they could be defeated.

And today

Now this I found very interesting:
In the conquest of Canaan, the promised land, the Israelites fell short of doing what God commanded them to in 3 regions.

The region of Bashan - nowadays called the Golan. Og of the Amorites was one the major king of the area during Joshua’s time and Joshua didn’t utterly wipe out all the Amorites. (He was duped by the Gibeonites, remember?)

Hebron - nowadays called the Westbank or Samaria
During the Canaan conquests, Hebron was under the control of three sons of Anak who was considered a descendant of the Nephilim (Numbers 13:33) and also referred to as Rephaite (Rephaim).

And then there is Gaza
Gaza is located along the western coast of Canaan, bordering Egypt and after Joshua and the tribe of Judah failed to completely eliminate all the Anakim from here, as well as Gath and Ashdod, and the rest of the the area as they were directed (as we read about in Joshua 11:22), it became a major city of the Philistines and remained a major thorn in the side of the Jews all through the book of Judges.

We all know these regions from our daily news. Almost not a single day passes without some or other evil comes from those area’s, directed agaist Israel.

This to me, is more than coincidally possible, but what can it mean?
Is it possible that Satan has a foothold in those places? Are demons territorial?
More study is needed on this.

2018 by Kaatje

 

[Goodboy]

Who were the son's of God in the Old Testament

Here is my approach that explains “sons of God” in both the old and new testament, for those like me who like things to be simpler and not complicated to understand.

After the fall we became sinners and lost our right to be called sons of God because we became dead in our trespasses and sins. So we were spiritually dead and no longer sons of God. It is like if my son was to die, I would not say I have a son, but that I had a son. So yes sons of God in the old testament was only speaking of angles.

In the new testament it actually states who will be called sons of God, which are those who have accepted Jesus and whose spirit has been resurrected, hence born again.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Another take on it that people can decide for themselves.

God Bless!

 

[Hol]

Our negatives are often premature and presumptuous too...

You're right, we can pray for the US and if God wills, we'll get the criminal elements under control and live peaceable lives.

I love your idea/question of what positive things are going on?

 

[Margery]

In general though i would see the watcher world really into the dark stuff. Like NWO, mind countrol, technology against us, deception, manipulation, finanical collapse, American collapse, famine etc. Now a lot of those things might be on the way. And sure we might experience some of that too. But I am not convinced that the church is slated to uncover the roadmap blueprint to how it all goes down this side of the age of grace. We trace the lines from the tribulation back to us. And i believe there will be some carryover. But i don't believe the way to do end time blueprints though so much is tribulation backwalks. I mean its understandable to a degree. But i would see we can tend to build empires of theology on that stuff.

That is a BRILLIANT assessment!

Yes, some of that stuff is on the way but we don't need to obsess over it because we aren't here for the Tribulation. And if we were meant to know things that God appears to direct towards the generation living THRU the Trib at that time, then we would have a lot more clarity. Do aliens show up as Billy Crone and some others think or does the MOB involve tech we currently have?

Maybe we go right up to the flashpoint just before the starter pistol (AC covenant with "the many" which is a term used for Israel in Hebrew) and we see much of the underpinnings, see the groundwork for the Tribulation. We have an idea that our tech at present might fit, but what if the Lord tarries and some newer tech supercedes it and fits the prophetic picture far more clearly.

It all depends on God's timetable of events.

If that "Roadmap Blueprint" as you call it was meant for the church to uncover, I think the Holy Spirit would be illuminating more of those aspects. There is a lot of conjecture going on, that may or may not fit with how it actually goes down.

It's a fascinating subject to be sure, but seeing the prophetic framework as outlined in Daniel, Revelation and elsewhere, doesn't give us enough to create what you call "Empires of Theology" on.

We run the risk of doing newspaper exegesis where we force current events into the prophetic narrative and end up looking a little foolish as time goes on.


I'm one of the ones that think that the vaccine situation actually backfired on the globalists and now there is a growing world wide backlash against the govts that pushed it and the agenda behind it. I think it's actually part of what's driving the coming elections around the world towards the "right" wing policies which actually would work even better for the OWG and globalists than the leftists trail of destruction. They were the useful idiots of the last few years but when the pendulum swings to the right, it won't be for the better. It won't be for national identities.

The pragmatist elements of Right and Left need a functioning governmental structure that steers to OWG and away from nationalism so I look to see a conservative reaction that will be manipulated by the globalists since they work using both right and left in a Hegelian dialectic to achieve synthesis which in my opinion will be the "compromise" from the swamp creatures as the Americans call them.

edited to add, for proof just look how Trump was used to bring about all the Fauci stuff with the shutdowns, mandates and forced vaccinations in the States. He had some people in power that shouldn't have been trusted, but it happens. It will happen again if he wins even with his best efforts to avoid the snakes and swamp creatures.

Hi Andy. Yeah i am with you on the MOB. I believe what happens is we feel we need to be proactive and sniff it out so we can warm people more clearly. But I don't really see the church as the entity to disclose mysteries in prophesy too much. Maybe a little here or there. But not much. I believe Israel is the one associated with prophecy. Not the church. But that we would have crumbs from the table to certainly get a sense of something.

YES! We get a general sense, but we can't be definite, like the Trib Saints will have to be. They are the ones who will recognize everything and pay attention to the warnings in scripture. The MOB is not for the church period, it's the Trib period. Therefore they will know it and we won't till we see it from the balcony so to speak.

As we can plainly see now the left and the right are kind of both globalist lapdogs.

YUP!!!!

I also don't think it's necessary that the USA collapse. The USA along with the majority of western nations is already in the OWG camp, and it would seem to me that the antichrist would love to have the US military assets intact for his use. It bugs me when Watchers talk about the USA as if it is a foregone conclusion that it must collapse. There's 200+ countries in the world and most of them aren't mentioned in the Bible... the USA doesn't have to go away because it isn't mentioned... I do expect it to morph with one or more nations into one of the 10 end times regions.

BINGO! I think they ARE around. Weakened perhaps if they are part of the young lions of Tarshish. Part of the future OWG IF that occurs in the near future because of the dependence around the world on US banking and computer systems if nothing else. Even if the world economy does a melt down, it has to be replaced with something and the BRICS aren't ready. The systems for banking and computers (internet stuff) have been perfected in the USA. The other wannabes haven't quite managed their worldwide takeover yet and have problems at present. (looking at Russia and China as the main drivers of that bus). They use the Iranians and the unrest in the Middle East to topple the Americans but they aren't ready to take on the whole world.

Love this thread!

 

[Margery]

Oh and I should add that the OWG crowd (from Left or Right) don't much like Russia or China. They serve a purpose of gradually weakening the USA, - setting up a crisis in currency, a war or two, but the main goal isn't to let Russia or China win.

The main goal from the OWG crowd is to use the left, the right, Russia, China, Iran, world events and any crisis that happens to come along to push the OWG and some type of digital currency in place of national identity and individual national currencies plus the world reserve currency, the petro dollar.

The OWG types from Davos, WEF etc are manipulating each crisis as it happens to create their idea of a planetary govt, with a planetary digital currency with themselves at the top.

The real puppet masters aren't the OWG crowd, or in the Kremlin or the Deep State in Washington's swamp, they are the fallen angels working the Luciferian agenda to stop prophecy being fulfilled, to destroy Israel and the Jews and sidestep God's plan.

 

[mattfivefour]

The real puppet masters aren't the OWG crowd, or in the Kremlin or the Deep State in Washington's swamp, they are the fallen angels working the Luciferian agenda to stop prophecy being fulfilled, to destroy Israel and the Jews and sidestep God's plan.

Exactly! The OWG crowd are just tools, useful idiots, for Satan and his crowd. And they will be discarded once their usefulness has served its purpose

 

[Andy C]

So it seems that while the Flood wiped out all the Nefilim and their offspring, some of their DNA survived. If you look at the lineage of Shem, Ham and Japheth, you see where the tribes of the Giants come from.

This brings up a few questions.

1. Why did God cause the flood? Was it only because of the below, or was His reason also to get rid of the DNA infected by the nephilim?

Genesis 6
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

2. What does “perfect in his generations” mean from the below in Genesis 6:

9. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all fleshhad corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them withthe earth.

I believe because of the evil in mens hearts, and because of the infected DNA from the Sons of God mating with women, is why God used the flood to destroy all but the 8 in the ark.

 

[Andy C]

So it seems that while the Flood wiped out all the Nefilim and their offspring, some of their DNA survived. If

If this is true, what did Noah was “perfect in his generations” mean?

I dont believe any Nephilim DNA was in Noahs family, but at a later date, the Sons of God attempted to contaminate the bloodlines again, but were quickly stopped by God before it became widespread as before the flood. JMHO.

 

[RonJohnSilver]

If this is true, what did Noah was “perfect in his generations” mean?

I dont believe any Nephilim DNA was in Noahs family, but at a later date, the Sons of God attempted to contaminate the bloodlines again, but were quickly stopped by God before it became widespread as before the flood. JMHO.

Just a random thought here, but assuming that Satan and his minions contaminated the entire world, except for 8, that is, what?....several million people? That's a pretty high success rate. Maybe Satan thought he could try the same thing again and get it completely right that second time. On the other hand, seeing how God handled the first group of angels, Satan might have a hard time getting a second group together. Hmmm.....

 

[Tall Timbers]

several million people?

Some think there were billions. I don't know what basis they use for that conclusion.

 

[Margery]

Some think there were billions. I don't know what basis they use for that conclusion.

I think they did a numbers thing looking at how young the youngest age pre flood was for having babies, and then went upwards to the oldest age recorded, figuring a child every 2 - 3 years give or take a bit for some that might have fertility issues, or loss of a child here and there. The children would then have similar fertility numbers. It adds up pretty fast.

Some Jewish historical documents alluded to by Josephus, found in the Dead Sea Scrolls or copied into Jewish historical texts mention that at one point the women were using abortions via certain herbs to avoid pregnancy but that was towards the time just before the Flood for a few hundred years. A lot of the godly people started to die off at that time too if the texts are accurate which they might not be. The texts mention rampant homosexuality as well as homosexual "marriage" ceremonies starting to happen just before the flood. Again, not sure how accurate those texts are but if Jesus's words about Noah and Lot are a picture of life before the Flood, it may well be. So take some off for that type of activity.

So if Adam (lived to be 930) and Eve produced a baby (or twins, or some years none) every 2-3 years on average and lets say its equal male to female. Take off 100 years for maturation although some didn't need that long. Take another couple of hundred years off for whatever passed for old age. So for Adam and Eve lets say they are fertile for 700 of those years. For rough figures the next generations only 500 fertile years.

In 700 fertile years Adam and Eve could easily produce 300 to 350 children, assuming an equal male female ration that is a potential set of 150 to 175 couples in gen 2

You now have 150 couples in generation 2 who are now each producing another 100 couples for gen 3, and that would be 15,000 couples

By gen 4 the couples are now up to 225,000,000 with 6 more generations to go. By now there is a lot of cross generational marriages happening as the younger people in gen 2 are marrying the older people from gen 3.

Obviously each couple set isn't going to produce at that high rate, and allowing for birth defects entering into the next few generations, war, disease and so forth, it will reduce the potential fertility by quite a lot.

By the time you get to the 10th generation- Noah, the multiplication effect ---even though some of the original generations have died off now, --the possible numbers are still sky high. Even allowing for a lot of death due to increasing violence, fallen angels grabbing some of the women, deaths due to disease, predators, possible famines etc, the total numbers start to really add up.

It's actually hard to wrap the mind around the sheer numbers involved.

 

[Tall Timbers]

I think they did a numbers thing looking at how young the youngest age pre flood was for having babies, and then went upwards to the oldest age recorded, figuring a child every 2 - 3 years give or take a bit for some that might have fertility issues, or loss of a child here and there.

I have no idea what the population of mortals will be at the start of the Millennial Reign, but I expect that by the end of the 1000 years there's gonna be billions again.

 

[TCC]

That is a BRILLIANT assessment!

Yes, some of that stuff is on the way but we don't need to obsess over it because we aren't here for the Tribulation. And if we were meant to know things that God appears to direct towards the generation living THRU the Trib at that time, then we would have a lot more clarity. Do aliens show up as Billy Crone and some others think or does the MOB involve tech we currently have?

Maybe we go right up to the flashpoint just before the starter pistol (AC covenant with "the many" which is a term used for Israel in Hebrew) and we see much of the underpinnings, see the groundwork for the Tribulation. We have an idea that our tech at present might fit, but what if the Lord tarries and some newer tech supercedes it and fits the prophetic picture far more clearly.

It all depends on God's timetable of events.

If that "Roadmap Blueprint" as you call it was meant for the church to uncover, I think the Holy Spirit would be illuminating more of those aspects. There is a lot of conjecture going on, that may or may not fit with how it actually goes down.

It's a fascinating subject to be sure, but seeing the prophetic framework as outlined in Daniel, Revelation and elsewhere, doesn't give us enough to create what you call "Empires of Theology" on.

We run the risk of doing newspaper exegesis where we force current events into the prophetic narrative and end up looking a little foolish as time goes on.


I'm one of the ones that think that the vaccine situation actually backfired on the globalists and now there is a growing world wide backlash against the govts that pushed it and the agenda behind it. I think it's actually part of what's driving the coming elections around the world towards the "right" wing policies which actually would work even better for the OWG and globalists than the leftists trail of destruction. They were the useful idiots of the last few years but when the pendulum swings to the right, it won't be for the better. It won't be for national identities.

The pragmatist elements of Right and Left need a functioning governmental structure that steers to OWG and away from nationalism so I look to see a conservative reaction that will be manipulated by the globalists since they work using both right and left in a Hegelian dialectic to achieve synthesis which in my opinion will be the "compromise" from the swamp creatures as the Americans call them.

edited to add, for proof just look how Trump was used to bring about all the Fauci stuff with the shutdowns, mandates and forced vaccinations in the States. He had some people in power that shouldn't have been trusted, but it happens. It will happen again if he wins even with his best efforts to avoid the snakes and swamp creatures.


YES! We get a general sense, but we can't be definite, like the Trib Saints will have to be. They are the ones who will recognize everything and pay attention to the warnings in scripture. The MOB is not for the church period, it's the Trib period. Therefore they will know it and we won't till we see it from the balcony so to speak.


YUP!!!!


BINGO! I think they ARE around. Weakened perhaps if they are part of the young lions of Tarshish. Part of the future OWG IF that occurs in the near future because of the dependence around the world on US banking and computer systems if nothing else. Even if the world economy does a melt down, it has to be replaced with something and the BRICS aren't ready. The systems for banking and computers (internet stuff) have been perfected in the USA. The other wannabes haven't quite managed their worldwide takeover yet and have problems at present. (looking at Russia and China as the main drivers of that bus). They use the Iranians and the unrest in the Middle East to topple the Americans but they aren't ready to take on the whole world.

Love this thread!

Thank Margery. I appreciate the feed back. Over time i am more open to some theories like globalism as Hagelian Dialectic. Or right wing world take over to bring in the beast system. I am open to that. But honestly not very or much. I can appreciate those who hold that. But aside from that i see some greater structural problems. It gets detailed but here is a sample:

I believre America likely to become Bab the Great. During the early periods of the tribulation i believe the 10 nation confederacy forms. I don't believe the AC is the 11th horn until midpont.. Prior AC kicks off tribulation by deall with the many as pre supernatural. After Trumpet 5 he kills the 2 witnesses. That is him supernatural. So i see the 11th horn emerge from the same platue of 10 nation confederacy. But there are fights along the way. Not sure if the 11th can come after the 3 are destroyed but imagine its 11th and not 7th or something because we won't see it like that unitl the midpoint.

DISCLAIMER -- THIS IS JUST MY VIEW -- BUT STATING FOR THE RECORD (I guess we will see):
Instead of globalist take over i focus on the best it gets is clay/iron (factions ruling). Even at its hight the AC can only dominate so much. Sure its global and oppressive but weak in a lot of places. We don't don't to walk away with that vibe. Having that as the gist...I believe there are two separate stories. No one has this view. So i am here all alone. Hi...how are you....lol...nice to meet you.

I believe instead of focusing on what now becomes in tribulation....the end of the age of grace is a separate story. There will be carry over. But the tribulation does not govern or own the ending the age of grace. I see the end of the age of grace as completely different. Separate. Some carry over BUT SO MUCH MORE that is not. I see it as its own totally separate stroy. The reason is i see God concluding the church age of grace as just that. So its His conclusion.. We tend to have not doctrine for that. I might be wrong. But i would see God as having the right should He so want a separate ending.

In that i would see the wave goodbye as the 1st seal. Not AC. Not a part of the tribulation. I would see the first seal as the US Constitution (lead of gentile nations) triumphing over the world. This may sound like i'm crazy...lol. But the focus i see is on the climax of the age of grace. Not the tribulation. I believe it is a mistake not to consider that.. So i see the first seal as a gov constitution that says "We are given freedom from our creator not government." And no other nation has this. So i would see that is what conquers and give huge strength to Israel. And Israel benefits greatly from that. It is there ulitmate "peace and safety," as i see it.

But i see the second seal as the door to the tribulation. That door introducing Israel to her 70th week via Ez 38. So i believe the rapture (pretrib) likely occurs at the end of seal one and possibly during the eve of seal 2. Because the church goes out...Israel is not back front and center. So i see seal 1 and 2 as door closing/door opening. Both before the tribulation. I see the tribulation as stating on seal 3.

I know this is not a common view. In fact no one has it. But its my little pet view...lol. Its God's good bye to the church age. And a love offfering to Israel should she want to be reminded of His promise to give them a thousand year rule. Those who recognize that might believe in Christ. And be raptured with the church. So the first seal in my view is also a Christian tract on Steriods to Israel. A kiss goodbye to them (or hello depending on how you look at it).

I could be totally wrong. And maybe i am way off. I was not going to be about on this forum all about my fringe views. But i just wanted to interject here dear sister because i know that are a lot of ideas about the global take over for tribulaton. It may be shift into something at that time of the tribualtion for sure....but in the event there is some accuracy to God wanting age of grace closure...just saying. Blessings and thanks for letting me share and your feedback.

 

[Margery]

That is FUN to think about.

I have finally opened my mind to the possibility of America as Babylon. At first I didn't see how it was even remotely possible but then one of my favourite, very conservative Bible teachers (Lee Brainard) mentioned that he held to that theory and I decided to spend some time mulling it over. I have to say it has some compelling aspects even if I'm not there yet.

If we don't at least entertain the possible other theories, we really don't hold to anything with any strength, simply because we shut ourselves off from other theories that might actually convince us for them or convince us more firmly in favour of the original theory.

 

[TCC]

Here is my study I once did, on the Nephilim.
I must make a caveat, that it is per definition conjecture, because the Bible says not litterally that angels mated with women. So I am not dogmatic about it.


Nephilim

For this study, I used multiple resources, but lets start with the Hebrew roots.

“Nefilim” is the plural of “Nafil” The root-verb is “nafal” which means to fall.

Genesis 6:4
There were Nephilim in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men of old, men of renown.

Genesis 6:2-4 in the Jewish Tanakh
When men began to increase on earth and daughters were born to them, the divine beings saw how beautiful the daughters of men were and they took wives from among those that pleased them. It was then, and later too, that the Nephilim appeared on earth – when the divine beings cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown.”

“The sons of God” is used in different places in Scripture and means Angels.
When Satan, (once the angel Lucifer - lightbearer) rebelled against God and fell from heaven (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28), one third of the angels joined him (Revelation 12:3-4,9).

Also, Jude 1:6 tells us the angels who sinned abandoned their origins. That means they no longer kept the form given to angels in Heaven and instead took on the form of humans on Earth. This is something angels have the ability to do, but only under God’s direction for the purpose of ministering to us (Hebrews 1:14). Having human form gave them the ability to mate with human women.

So, the sons of God were fallen angels, who procreated with human females. However, while spiritual beings, they can appear in human, physical form (Mark 16:5). The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to have sex with the two angels who were with Lot (Genesis 19:1-5). It is plausible that angels are capable of taking on human form, even to the point of replicating human sexuality and possibly even reproduction.

So why do the fallen angels not do this more often? It seems that God imprisoned the fallen angels who committed this evil sin, so that the other fallen angels would not do the same (as described in Jude 6). Earlier Hebrew interpreters and apocryphal and pseudopigraphal writings are unanimous in holding to the view that fallen angels are the “sons of God” mentioned in Genesis 6:1-4.

Nefilim after the flood

Genesis 6:4
There were Nephilim in the earth in those days; and also after that…

Numbers 13:3.
And there we saw the Nefilim, the sons of Anak, who come from the Nefilim; and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Anak can, but doesn’t have to be, a name. The word “anak” means “giant” in Hebrew, so it could be translated as giant people or giant beings.
(Compare to son of Adam - human being)

So it seems that while the Flood wiped out all the Nefilim and their offspring, some of their DNA survived. If you look at the lineage of Shem, Ham and Japheth, you see where the tribes of the Giants come from.

The lineage of the post-flood giants can be traced specifically to three of Ham’s sons, Cush, Mizraim and Canaan.

And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim, And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim. – Genesis 10:13-14.

In verse 14 we have the first mention of the Phillistines (whose forefather was Phillistim), the nation of the giant Goliath. Calshuhim was the father of Phillistim and his family later resided in Capthor in the Promised Land. So we see the direct origins of the Philistines, one of the most heated enemies of the Israelites, who also carried the Nephilim gene.

And Mizraim begat Ludim, And Canaan begat Sidon his first born, and Heth, And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite, — Genesis 10:14-16.

The Jebusites, the Amorites and Gegusites (all cousins of Nimrod), are mentioned time and time again with reference to the Israelites capturing the Promised Land. These families were usurpers in the Promised Land and carried the Nephilim gene. This is why God instructed the Israelites to deal mercilessly with these nations.

When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. — Deuteronomy 7:1-3.

Notice that God describes these nations as “greater and mightier than thou” to the Israelites. The physical and military advantage was clearly on the side of the enemies of God – the nations that were home to the Nephilim giants. But what gave the Israelites the ultimate edge was that The Lord Himself was going to supernaturally intervene early on in the conflict to deliver the enemies of Israel so they could be defeated.

And today

Now this I found very interesting:
In the conquest of Canaan, the promised land, the Israelites fell short of doing what God commanded them to in 3 regions.

The region of Bashan - nowadays called the Golan. Og of the Amorites was one the major king of the area during Joshua’s time and Joshua didn’t utterly wipe out all the Amorites. (He was duped by the Gibeonites, remember?)

Hebron - nowadays called the Westbank or Samaria
During the Canaan conquests, Hebron was under the control of three sons of Anak who was considered a descendant of the Nephilim (Numbers 13:33) and also referred to as Rephaite (Rephaim).

And then there is Gaza
Gaza is located along the western coast of Canaan, bordering Egypt and after Joshua and the tribe of Judah failed to completely eliminate all the Anakim from here, as well as Gath and Ashdod, and the rest of the the area as they were directed (as we read about in Joshua 11:22), it became a major city of the Philistines and remained a major thorn in the side of the Jews all through the book of Judges.

We all know these regions from our daily news. Almost not a single day passes without some or other evil comes from those area’s, directed agaist Israel.

This to me, is more than coincidally possible, but what can it mean?
Is it possible that Satan has a foothold in those places? Are demons territorial?
More study is needed on this.

2018 by Kaatje

Beautiful pic by the way Kaatje

 

[TCC]

Ok regarding Fallen Angels mating with humans. I tried this over on JDF but it did not go over so well...lol. They are very pro Fallen Angel Mating theory. I used to be to for llke 20+ years. But in the past few years i have come to see that there are other sound biblical ways to look at Peter and Jude. The sticking point for me is Gen 6. It totally sounds like a contrast "Sons of God" and "daughters of men." But i came acrosss a scholar recently that is mainstream online fro the 1800s that kind of helped me consider that.

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament

Genesis 6:2 Commentaries: that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

What started me thinking is that God has created everything after its kind. He did not "create" man to be able to mate with animals and produce offspring. He did not create a cat to be able to mate with fox. Animals have innate barriers. Humans have innate barriers when it comes to what laws operate in pregnancy. So if the character of God is to make everything after its kind so that it cannot cross impgregnant, then might He have been ok with the spiritual mating with the physiical even when the physical can't interpregregnant cross speicies?

One argument i heard is that God inpregnated Mary. So there is an example of a spirit mating with a human. But I was thinking do we reallly want to use that holy example to endorse fallen angel impgregnation of human women? In my understanding, the immaculate conception is unique to God and God alone with His creation -- for extreme use of His will purpose. If fallen angeles were doing all over the place, it kind of in my mind makes the immacualte conception not as unique a thing in general...at the cost of having a certain preferred theology.

I thought this might in a way be somewhat interesting in thought provoking. I know what it is like to believe in the Fallen Angel inception view. I had it for decades. Got questions demonstrates it sees the contrast. And actually goes with the Fallen Angel view: Who were the sons of God and daughters of men in Genesis 6:1-4? | GotQuestions.org. I disagree, but i do honor its place in general consideration. But find it maybe a sing of times thing too. Where even sound bibllical approaches affirm fallen angel theory by opinion...which is what GotQuestions kind of does there at the end.

I respect the view of fallen angel theory. But the more i think about it, the more I am encouraged differently. For example with Sodom lusting after angels. These angels were in the appearance as men. So there is that. If an angel takes on the image of a man, can an angel animate DNA to impregnate women of those who were created in the image of God, is the question i would ask. Being in the image of something and being something actually are not the same thouhg. Can i angel turn themsevels into mankind and get redeemed by Christ? I don't think that is possible though. So it would not seem to reason that they could enter into "created in the image of God" gene pool. This is how i would see it.

. . . . .
The bottom line for me is if Gen 6:2 has no reaonsable way to look at it other than dividing "Sons of God" as a sepearte race or entity from "duaghters of men" then the word of God must be taken at its face value and just need to deail with it. But that commentary is a Hebrew Scholar and demonstrates in my view there is room to consider by what God meant their with Hebriac grammar and idiom.

Lastley, can we see where the actual "Sons of God" term is used in the old testament and it not be angels? I blieve so.

What does the Bible mean by “you are gods” / “ye are gods” in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34? | GotQuestions.org

What does the Bible mean by “you are gods” / “ye are gods” in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34? Are human beings in fact “little gods”?

www.gotquestions.org

I believe here GotQuestions has it right. It affirms Christ divinity to see these as human judges because of its affiliation with "the law to men." If those are angels, is Christ calling Himself an angel? I never went with the divine counsel theory. The main reason why is that angels in Psalm 82 would be told to stop sinning. Can they? Once an angel who stand in the very presence of God sins, does it then become "Touched by an Angel" tv theme of "Ok God, i'll stop abusing people, thanks for the warning." We know angels (in their great supernatural minds) are amazed at the redemption concept 1 Peter 1:12. Can angels in open face to God repent? We don't have that doctrine. But it would look quite the opposite. James 2:19 shows demons not able to repent in the face and clear knowledge of God. So it would seem a stretch for angels to be "on probation." The natural context of Psalm 82 theologically insists on men judges.

Psalm 82:6 Commentaries: I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament

It would seem that "Sons of God" can and does refer to men in Old Testament Hebrew. Based on that, other reasonable explanations of the New Testament verses of concern, that God has demonstrated His person and character in creation...

Romans 1:19-20
19 For what can be mknown about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,1 in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

...that God has demonstrated no cross breeding in creation, that we are also told angels don't marry or mate (at least respectable ones), I would side against the fallen angel theory view. Although it is very prevelant today. In some ways of course we could also say this is my opinion. And it is. But answer honestly, has anyone in any church ever seen how "Sons of God" in Hebrew idiom and grammar (along with Psalm 82:6) demonstrate it could be mankind (aside from a needed Seth or other theory to boot)? I've never heard that ever. Maybe i don't get around as much, but yeah so just thought to put it out there to see what you guys might think. Thanks. Blessings

 

[Kaatje]

Thanks, @TCC @Margery @Goodboy @Andy C, and all others that contribute to this topic.
Lots to consider!
There is so much we can glean from the Bible, and so much that we don't understand rightly, yet.
What a joy it will be when we understand everything, the way we are understood. (1 Cor. 13:12)
May that day come to pass very soon. Maranatha!

 

[mattfivefour]

For the past 50 years I have gone back and forth over the idea of who the Nephilim were. Did fallen angels --that is to say demons-- mate with human females? And currently I'm in the no they didn't camp. And I'll tell you why.

For the Nephilim, if they were the product of fallen angels/demons, to have survived the flood, it could have only been through the eight people in the ark. Now are we to believe that the Nephilim DNA, the fallen angel DNA, came through Noah or his wife? I don't think so. God specifically chose Noah to repopulate the world without the corruption that existed pre-flood. So I don't think it's possible that He would have chosen Noah or his wife had there been demonic DNA in either of them.

So if it wasn't in them, it wasn't in their sons either. That leaves the wives of the sons. Is it possible there was demonic DNA in any one of the three wives? Possibly, but unlikely. For it to be there would have meant that God allowed it to be there. God who knows everything, every single thing, the placement of every fraction of every atom of every molecule in the universe, would have known they carried that demonic DNA. And further, He would have permitted it. So would He who is able to control the affairs of man have allowed Noah's son's to marry women containing demonic seed? Or If He had, would He have allowed the wives to enter the ark to repopulate the world? Again I don't think so. God is in control of everything and he would not have allowed that. He destroyed the world because of it if you believe the theory,; therefore there's no way he would have allowed the intermingling of demon and human DNA to continue. That for me is the most compelling argument.

Yes, we can argue all sorts of theological positions, we can argue all sorts of grammatical definitions and genealogical suppositions. But ultimately it comes down to God and what was God's will and what was God's purpose. Therefore as much as there are very interesting arguments on the the Nephilim being the product of demons mating with women I don't believe it for one second anymore. I am firmly in the camp that there is some other explanation.

What is that explanation? I have no idea. But I come back to Deuteronomy 29:29-- the secret things belong onto the Lord our God; but those things which He has revealed belong to us to obey and to our children. So for me I'd rather put my effort into looking at what God clearly has said should be our purpose and our behavior towards ourselves and our behaviors towards the saved and our behaviors towards the lost. My sanctification is the most important thing in my life, because from that sanctification flows the ability to effectively witness to others. Anything else is an aside. And a distraction. And Satan loves distractions.

 

[Andy C]

Here is a topic.

Why do so many Christians assume the tribulation starts immediately after the rapture?

 

[Amethyst]

Here is a topic.

Why do so many Christians assume the tribulation starts immediately after the rapture?

I used to think the Holy Spirit was totally removed from the earth at the rapture.