Greg
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Or go the now traditional route of doing it in a car. Maybe a VW microbus would be a cool twist, with the ocean in the background.
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Is the RAPTURE Really This Month? The Bible’s Timeline Is Shocking
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TCC
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Thanks Margerie. I appreciate the feedback. Yes of course these are inferences. But there are like a ton of inferences today that make grand parade like sense to much of evangelicalism I would also deem as inference...but just have been accepted as that which we totally build eschatology totally on. So in that we, this contrast is likely not as great as it may seem. If we decloth the eschatological emperor sold so profoundly as to have massive conferences and conventions surrounding. If we decouple inference from absolute rock solid certain Christian eschatological doctrine from that camp, in my mind, there would not be merely any great emperial doctrine to contrast much. And in that sense, the inference in Ez 38 related context might appear quite a bit more pallatable. If that makes sense.
So yeah though like on one hand I totally agree that of course it is conjecture. But what is not conjecture is God's character revealed in scripture and ulitmatley in His Son. We could say much of the eschatological tones of today are based on God's justice and dealing with sin. And that might seem to be enough to justify the lengths we might go in perhaps overstating the case of the beast system all over the place. But the just judgement of God is only as helpful to grasp as it would be as a backdrop to His mercy and love. In other words, if there were no cross we would have something like the Muslim faith. But God's just judgement is even understood a bit less troubling as we see His mercy and kindness.
In eschatological times it could be discerned that God's greatest attribute is the tribulation. So people need Jesus. But I think it is kind of the other way around. That God's biggest attribute is disclosed in His Son. That He condescended to become human flesh. Dwell among us. And reveal His inner most heart in dying on the cross for His creation. It is the rejection of that that brings His justice. So as long as it is the age of grace, we would do well to see eschatology through those eyes ourselves being also in the age of grace. And not superimpose the tribulation justic aspect of God onto the age of grace. An age where His goodness and patience reign supreme over the earth.
So it kind of is for that reason that is believe that the way to look at this is primarily through His character. And if His character might be an hermeneutic, it suggest a bit more than inference perhaps. Because if God is merciful and kind not desiring the death the of the wicked, I ask the following: Would it not make sense to us that One who has a disposition such as God provide a very powerful last ditch effort for Israel to know Him before the tribulation? If that means that Israel can actually be removed from the coming judgement for Israel if they rapture with church? That, to me, seems so strong in His character, it would be hard for me to consider it not larger than possibility.
But I do get what you are saying. And no matter how aligning views might be of God as to how it affects eschatology, He reserves the right to His own character potrayed. Amen. But for me, I actually would suggest following Ez 38 to know rapture timing to be considered because it likely (not certainly) falls at the heels of the tribulation. And to the degree we can watch Ez 38 form in the age of grace as something for our day...and the rapture is sometime near, its not a huge conjecture to consider the rapture to holistically align. Especailly in light of the tribulation being the 70th week...a week not for church. So because of that intersection and the allowance of being able to watch Ez 38 prophecy like a finely tuned swiss watch, it might call for humble attention of the church to steer its sense about prophetic stances to defer to Israel instead. But something like that makes, to me, it even more so beyond mere conjecture.
But pound for pound, it is still conjecture. But I believe of the highest octane calibur. So much so I would see it leave a lot of the traditional views and approaches (that are litterred with conjecture daily) in the conjecturing dust. Me thinks.
But something else to consider too about the nature of Ez 38. We tend to see Israel here with us now for over 70 years God fulfilling along the way the Abrahamic Covenant. I believe there is certainly room to consider it. But we tend to stop there. A place I believe that does not exactly go far enough. I do believe that God is on the way to fulfilling the Abrahamic Covenant with Israel. But I don't think that is the utter focus of their being here. Israel being here fulfills Ez 37 as much as it does the Abrahamic Covenant. In fact, I would argue it fulfills more of Ez 37 than the Abrahamic Covenant. Because in the Abrahamic Covenant God will honor them beyond their obedience or disobedience. But in the tribulation aftermath will utterly bless Israel for their obedience during the triublation. That is the ultimate Abrahamic Covenant connection. The end of the age of grace will not be the ultimate conclusion of the Abrahamic Covenant. But it will be the conclsuion of God's patients for this world system. That is a pretty major paradigm shift.
So since that change is paradigmatic, what goes with how the end of this age results in = what operating system God is most likely operating in. Sure he is operating in a condition where Israel is being brought along through the mercies of the Abrahamic Covenant. But contextually, with their ending in the age of grace, that would not be the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant does not end with Ez 38. But this is the economy we find ourselves (as well as Israel) in. And that economy, though fulled by Abrahamic Covenant undertones, is functional for the age of grace for purpose. What purpose? To bring Israel back echoing Abrahamic Covenant reality, yes. But more so as the generation of Israel that goes through Ez 38. A prophecy in bulk laid out we can all follow in our day. As we follow that prophecy we are not following the "heart" of the Abrahamic Covenant. We are following the heart of a countdown to the end of the age of grace. With the epitome of that being, Ez 38 culmination.
So would it make sense for Ez 38 to occur in the age of grace? Not really. For Ez 37 is emphasizing God's faithfulness to unfaithful people. That belongs in the age of grace. Whereas Ez 38 would seem to mark a new chapter. Perhaps not the tribulation proper. But something different than the age of grace that has afforded such return and blessing toward Israel. And in all of that is this thought: So what triggers Ez 38? Certainly not the age of grace. Is Israel only protected now because of the Abrahamic Covenant? Yes, in part. But this is the episode where Israel is traveling upon the Abramaic Covenant wings during a church age of grace--something not known uniquely as the nation of Israel until the last century. I believe what likely triggers Ez 38 is what otherwise beyond the Abrahamic Covenant might preserve her.
One thing that preserves her is the fact that it is still the age of grace. Amen. Another thing that preserves her is the church. Since we are here, it is likely God is extending mercy toward Israel in all of their disobedience because of the church being present on the earth. Many believe the church is the restrainer. So lets call the church as much of a restrainer protecting Israel as it is in keeping the Antichrist at bay. In this sense, that the church is a preserver unto Israel, if the church raptures...what is left to preserve Israel? Therefore, it would seem very spiritually reasonable that Ez 38 is Israel's fate on earth without the preservation God has for them under the protected banner of the church being on earth. A kind of inverse of Romans 11:28-32. Israel's rejection of Christ was a opportunity for the gentiles. Now, the presence of the gentile church is an opportunity for Israel...to remain intact as a nation. Remove the church, and what is to hold God's hand back from judging the 1948 Israeli generation? Nothing I am aware of. And because of the church being the preservative effect upon Israel (an inverse principle demonstrated by Romans 11), it would seem very likely that once the church is gone, Israel is exposed to the wild. A world where the church is removed from. A condition where they no longer remains under the protection of church presence (God not destroying Sodom as long as Lot was there: we are Lot). And since the tribulation is defined as the 70th week...it would only stand to reason God to highlight Israel by judgement and miraculous underscoring rescue as for whom this week accents. Israel. All of those components together I believe make a bit more surrounding of the exegeical camp than stand alone conjecture. Yes, still conjecture. But remarkably high octane species I would say. Certainly more solid a notion than the changing winds of how the shot calling seems from the prophecy watching camp takes often. No?
Well thanks for taking the time to read all of this. Truly. Blessings
Ronnie
Charter Member
I appreciate the paragraphs and line breaks, makes for easier reading.Thanks Margerie. I appreciate the feedback. Yes of course these are inferences. But there are like a ton of inferences today that make grand parade like sense to much of evangelicalism I would also deem as inference...but just have been accepted as that which we totally build eschatology totally on. So in that we, this contrast is likely not as great as it may seem. If we decloth the eschatological emperor sold so profoundly as to have massive conferences and conventions surrounding. If we decouple inference from absolute rock solid certain Christian eschatological doctrine from that camp, in my mind, there would not be merely any great emperial doctrine to contrast much. And in that sense, the inference in Ez 38 related context might appear quite a bit more pallatable. If that makes sense.
So yeah though like on one hand I totally agree that of course it is conjecture. But what is not conjecture is God's character revealed in scripture and ulitmatley in His Son. We could say much of the eschatological tones of today are based on God's justice and dealing with sin. And that might seem to be enough to justify the lengths we might go in perhaps overstating the case of the beast system all over the place. But the just judgement of God is only as helpful to grasp as it would be as a backdrop to His mercy and love. In other words, if there were no cross we would have something like the Muslim faith. But God's just judgement is even understood a bit less troubling as we see His mercy and kindness.
In eschatological times it could be discerned that God's greatest attribute is the tribulation. So people need Jesus. But I think it is kind of the other way around. That God's biggest attribute is disclosed in His Son. That He condescended to become human flesh. Dwell among us. And reveal His inner most heart in dying on the cross for His creation. It is the rejection of that that brings His justice. So as long as it is the age of grace, we would do well to see eschatology through those eyes ourselves being also in the age of grace. And not superimpose the tribulation justic aspect of God onto the age of grace. An age where His goodness and patience reign supreme over the earth.
So it kind of is for that reason that is believe that the way to look at this is primarily through His character. And if His character might be an hermeneutic, it suggest a bit more than inference perhaps. Because if God is merciful and kind not desiring the death the of the wicked, I ask the following: Would it not make sense to us that One who has a disposition such as God provide a very powerful last ditch effort for Israel to know Him before the tribulation? If that means that Israel can actually be removed from the coming judgement for Israel if they rapture with church? That, to me, seems so strong in His character, it would be hard for me to consider it not larger than possibility.
But I do get what you are saying. And no matter how aligning views might be of God as to how it affects eschatology, He reserves the right to His own character potrayed. Amen. But for me, I actually would suggest following Ez 38 to know rapture timing to be considered because it likely (not certainly) falls at the heels of the tribulation. And to the degree we can watch Ez 38 form in the age of grace as something for our day...and the rapture is sometime near, its not a huge conjecture to consider the rapture to holistically align. Especailly in light of the tribulation being the 70th week...a week not for church. So because of that intersection and the allowance of being able to watch Ez 38 prophecy like a finely tuned swiss watch, it might call for humble attention of the church to steer its sense about prophetic stances to defer to Israel instead. But something like that makes, to me, it even more so beyond mere conjecture.
But pound for pound, it is still conjecture. But I believe of the highest octane calibur. So much so I would see it leave a lot of the traditional views and approaches (that are litterred with conjecture daily) in the conjecturing dust. Me thinks.
I do believe that God is on the way to fulfilling the Abrahamic Covenant with Israel. But I don't think that is the utter focus of their being here. Israel being here fulfills Ez 37 as much as it does the Abrahamic Covenant. In fact, I would argue it fulfills more of Ez 37 than the Abrahamic Covenant. Because in the Abrahamic Covenant God will honor them beyond their obedience or disobedience. But in the tribulation aftermath will utterly bless Israel for their obedience during the triublation. That is the ultimate Abrahamic Covenant connection. The end of the age of grace will not be the ultimate conclusion of the Abrahamic Covenant. But it will be the conclsuion of God's patients for this world system. That is a pretty major paradigm shift.
So since that change is paradigmatic, what goes with how the end of this age results in = what operating system God is most likely operating in. Sure he is operating in a condition where Israel is being brought along through the mercies of the Abrahamic Covenant. But contextually, with their ending in the age of grace, that would not be the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant does not end with Ez 38. But this is the economy we find ourselves (as well as Israel) in. And that economy, though fulled by Abrahamic Covenant undertones, is functional for the age of grace for purpose. What purpose? To bring Israel back echoing Abrahamic Covenant reality, yes. But more so as the generation of Israel that goes through Ez 38. A prophecy in bulk laid out we can all follow in our day. As we follow that prophecy we are not following the "heart" of the Abrahamic Covenant. We are following the heart of a countdown to the end of the age of grace. With the epitome of that being, Ez 38 culmination.
So would it make sense for Ez 38 to occur in the age of grace? Not really. For Ez 37 is emphasizing God's faithfulness to unfaithful people. That belongs in the age of grace. Whereas Ez 38 would seem to mark a new chapter. Perhaps not the tribulation proper. But something different than the age of grace that has afforded such return and blessing toward Israel. And in all of that is this thought: So what triggers Ez 38? Certainly not the age of grace. Is Israel only protected now because of the Abrahamic Covenant? Yes, in part. But this is the episode where Israel is traveling upon the Abramaic Covenant wings during a church age of grace--something not known uniquely as the nation of Israel until the last century. I believe what likely triggers Ez 38 is what otherwise beyond the Abrahamic Covenant might preserve her.
One thing that preserves her is the fact that it is still the age of grace. Amen. Another thing that preserves her is the church. Since we are here, it is likely God is extending mercy toward Israel in all of their disobedience because of the church being present on the earth. Many believe the church is the restrainer. So lets call the church as much of a restrainer protecting Israel as it is in keeping the Antichrist at bay. In this sense, that the church is a preserver unto Israel, if the church raptures...what is left to preserve Israel? Therefore, it would seem very spiritually reasonable that Ez 38 is Israel's fate on earth without the preservation God has for them under the protected banner of the church being on earth. A kind of inverse of Romans 11:28-32. Israel's rejection of Christ was a opportunity for the gentiles. Now, the presence of the gentile church is an opportunity for Israel...to remain intact as a nation. Remove the church, and what is to hold God's hand back from judging the 1948 Israeli generation? Nothing I am aware of. And because of the church being the preservative effect upon Israel (an inverse principle demonstrated by Romans 11), it would seem very likely that once the church is gone, Israel is exposed to the wild. A world where the church is removed from. A condition where they no longer remains under the protection of church presence (God not destroying Sodom as long as Lot was there: we are Lot). And since the tribulation is defined as the 70th week...it would only stand to reason God to highlight Israel by judgement and miraculous underscoring rescue as for whom this week accents. Israel. All of those components together I believe make a bit more surrounding of the exegeical camp than stand alone conjecture. Yes, still conjecture. But remarkably high octane species I would say. Certainly more solid a notion than the changing winds of how the shot calling seems from the prophecy watching camp takes often. No?
Well thanks for taking the time to read all of this. Truly. Blessings
VERY good point Teren! Another evidence towards seeing Ezek 38 and 39 as after the Rapture. Terrific!
And for the record, I agree with the idea even though I downplay it in my mind and heart as inference and conjecture, simply because I don't like to leap ahead into assuring others that this is so. I'm a cautious sort as I think you are as well.
Andiamo
Hanging on to the Throne
Excellent video by Brother Chooch TOL End Times. I have watched him for entertainment purposes but got annoyed at his association with date setters especially Barry Awe and how he makes much ado about things like blood moons. But I love what he says here.
He is a good egg.
youtu.be
He is a good egg.
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Andiamo
Hanging on to the Throne
I have always loved his heart and his excitement about the rapture - this video was so good and I wonder how many other “watchmen” will admit these things. I still disagree with his holding to the idea that the supposed signs in the stars and moon could have any significance prophetically at all, but it sounds like he is definitely putting those ideas into proper perspective now, if not to bed…None of us are perfect, we are all still learning and get messed up sometimes.
As someone who messes up REGULARLY I totally agree. Thanking God He is patient and kind with us, extending mercy beyond any human ability!
I want to mark the date setters so we can avoid them. Name them and teach others why, especially when they come out with a fresh set of dates. I think it's more than ok to try to compassionately teach their broken hearted disappointed victims how to avoid them in future and why it's biblical to do so.
Because date setters are almost universal in the way they tell people that this is the way we are supposed to watch for the Rapture.
It's almost like they figure the angels who spoke to the disciples after the Ascension of our Lord told everyone to go out and guess dates, mess up their lives and their witness by constantly pointing to disappointing dates.
Their victims actually think this is pleasing to the Lord because they've been taught wrong. Compassion will reach them better than mockery.
As for the date setters, they are immune to mockery and rebuke. They seem to think their hard headed doubling down on false prophecies makes them heroes of the faith or something.
It's the followers that matter.
Because date setters are almost universal in the way they tell people that this is the way we are supposed to watch for the Rapture.
It's almost like they figure the angels who spoke to the disciples after the Ascension of our Lord told everyone to go out and guess dates, mess up their lives and their witness by constantly pointing to disappointing dates.
Their victims actually think this is pleasing to the Lord because they've been taught wrong. Compassion will reach them better than mockery.
As for the date setters, they are immune to mockery and rebuke. They seem to think their hard headed doubling down on false prophecies makes them heroes of the faith or something.
It's the followers that matter.
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Mike Winger has the most compassionate, yet unflinching expose on the date setters, focused on "brother" Joshua and all those who enabled him to create this fiasco.
He calls it like it is.
This is a quote from the start, his transcript:
"This is going to be an autopsy on the probably the worst, most disastrous, most harmful fake rapture, false rapture prediction in the history of humanity. At least that's my opinion about it. I'll explain why as we go. Some of you are like, "What do you mean? I didn't really hear about it." I mean, cuz we're all in our bubbles online. Uh even though we all think everybody else is in a bubble, we don't think we're in a bubble.
But here's the thing. I want if if you were one believing in the rapture, if you were one who was confident, maybe you even made predictions about it, uh I want this video to offer you some hope, but also some very serious, nononsense, straightforward confrontation about these issues.
I want to do both. I want to confront you, but I want to offer you hope. But we're going to do an autopsy on this thing first. We're going to walk through what happened. We're going to walk through how bad it was and we're going to explain like why why this was totally preventable, completely avoidable, and um how you can learn and avoid avoid it in the future."
He gets into various people that pushed this, and he is very compassionate towards those duped by this false prophet/wolf in sheeps clothing.
He plays clips that show us how Joshua doubles down on the lies about Jesus telling him all this and how trustworthy it is.
He covers Shervin Youssefian's horrible excuse for an apology towards the end- (Shervin Youssefian is the video that started this whole thread) in which Shervin said he's sorry "IF" he hurt anyone, then goes on to say something on the order of Jesus allowed this to teach us to apologize and started a whole apology teaching in which he apologizes for a whole bunch of other things that were general - if he hurt people, if he misunderstood his wife and a whole bunch of other distractions.
He does a great job of calling for repentance for those caught up in this false teaching, explaining how to get back to right teaching. He confronts people lovingly but firmly and lays out what is wrong.
He does not at any point expose anyone to ridicule, and is very supportive of those with genuine apologies like Mike the Medic guy.
WELL WORTH LISTENING TO. You can treat it like a podcast, and just listen, or you can read the transcript but it is worthwhile.
There are 2 schools of thought, both good and have good evidence in their positions. One is that the days of Noah are before the Rapture, as well as after- the other is that the days of Noah are during the Rapture as a sign of the 2cd coming.
Yes. I'm aware of the positions and take the Second Coming as the correct position. Others do not, including some who have posted on this thread and/or other threads. Not something to divide on, but definitely something that if incorrect, sends the wrong messages over and over and over again about who can know, who will know, who should know the signs of his return to earth vs to the air to take his bride for 7 years.
I never heard of him but he is a Dr. Are you saying he uses the title he earned to sound like he has a Dr in Theology?
I call nurse practicioners doctors. They are, by my way of thinking.
Andiamo
Hanging on to the Throne
His channel is not about chiropractic. His channel is about the rapture and the name of the channel is “Dr Barry Awe” and so assumptions can be made even if he is not intentionally misleading people.
He is also introduced or referenced to by other watchers as “Dr.” in their videos.
