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Are Old Testament Saints In the Rapture? And do the OT Saints Come to the Bema Seat With the Church?

I don't get your point. :noidea:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Daniel is speaking of the time of the end which is after the Rapture and speaks of what will happen to some. How does that change what Paul says will happen during the Rapture? 🤔

Please explain to me your version of what Paul is saying about the dead in Christ in the verses I listed in 1 Thessalonians before and again below. :noidea:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul speaks of an event which is the Lord descending with a shout after which the dead (bodies) in Christ rise first. Then in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Paul says that we who are alive are caught up together with them. Who is them? The Old Testament saints.
Thanks for your reply Goodboy. After seeing what Andy put, I think a lot of it is falling into place. The term "in Him" to me could be a category of all who have died that are saved or just specific to the church. Context, context, context. BUT since Rev 20:4 is there it means something to seemingly occur after the tribulation and before the thousand year reign of Christ. So this is how it is starting to seem for me:

1) The church (dead first) and the living rapture
2) The tribulation
3) The Old Testament saints are resurrected after the tribulation (and Daniel 12:2 would be seen as an overview...specifying those saved in the first resurrection and those who would not be in the 2nd resurrection "after" the thousand year reign.

If that makes sense?
 
Maybe I am misunderstanding the question as it would not be the first time, but here it what I believe. :)

Yes, the Old Testament Saints will go with us in the Rapture as per the Bible verses below.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note:
To be more specific in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 above it is the bodies of the dead in Christ that rise during the Rapture. Their soul and Spirit are already with Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

As far as the different Christian dispensations, to me they are just different experiences for Christians. The Old Testament Saints and those in the Tribulation mostly believe because of signs. Those of us in the Grace age mostly believe by faith alone. While the verse below is not referring to salvation, it is a principle that I believe applies.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Because we in the Grace Age are not given signs (Much) there is not as much required of us to prove our belief as those who are given signs (Much).

My understanding is salvation is really the same for all which is to believe in the Savior (Jesus) for salvation. So why is our time called the grace age? Because while it is faith in Jesus that saves in every dispensation we are not required any proof of our faith. For instance those in the Tribulation must prove their faith by not receiving the mark which means persecution for them. James makes the point that God asked Abraham to prove his faith in the verses below.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Right or wrong that is what I believe or you could say my two cents! (y)
This is a good point Goodboy. But since James is written to the church, why would God insert what was provided by signs to the Jews something He would be telling 1st century believers? Going by the distinctions you make though? It makes a lot of sense. But the orientation of God using James for the age of grace seems to suggest that it is also response to signs? Or why would James be used for faith alone in the age of grace considering your distinction though? Thanks :)
 
This is from GotQuestions.org.

The Bible states that New Testament saints who have died will be resurrected at the event we call the rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). The Bible is less clear about when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. It is our view that Old Testament believers will be joined to their resurrected bodies at the end of the tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom (Isaiah 26:19; Hosea 13:14).
Amen brother. And thanks for your reply. This is a view that is seeming to make a lot of sense as I consider. Interesting though that Daniel 12 is left out along with Rev 20:4. Which combined, for me, makes the argument pretty exegetically tight, no?
 
I think, based on how one interprets the relevant scriptures, a reasonable case can be made for both possibilities -- the rapture only for the Church and the rapture including the OT saints. But, of course, the decision is God's and, to be frank, entirely irrelevant to us.These are the topics that can divide saints, yet have no relevance to how we love and serve Christ.

I think Satan loves it when we argue about these things. I sometimes wonder if God purposely allows this in order to try our sanctification. These disagreements easily poke our human nature and the old man rears his head, giving us the opportunity to crucify him again, and show our love for Jesus.

Certainly, this one is an interesting topic to think on. But let's never allow it to cause bitterness, anger or frustration in it divergent views. I'm not saying that anyone is, but I sense the possibility.
Amen. As one who brings quite a quiver full of controversy, I well understand the concern. Thanks brother for considering the discussion value here. One time while on JDF I came across a teaching that blew my mind. It was from YT. And it was the 7th Trumpet rapture view. Which might sound really foreign. It was for me. The content creator of that view was feisty. And he felt like he had to insult you and push you around and beat you up and belittle and all of that in order for him to feel one qualified to share his inner thoughts on the matter. This is what came along with the Servus Christ crowd (the ultimate comment sections on YT of division for sure).

I was actually surprised that the 7th Trumpet rapture view holder actually considered me worthy to share why he would believe that. But when he did it blew my mind because I never saw those kinds of arguments before. And always stayed with pretrib (even after challenge that view withstood by whatching 15 hours of videos against that position--which just made pretrib all the more valid). But this one about the 7th Trumpet threw me for a loop.

So I posted on JDF what that view was, and if the forum could help me walk it back. For there were a few brief days I legitimately considered it. Which is rare. Because most of the rapture views outside of pretrib are pretty weak. And so the forum graciously weighted in. And after a few days it was becoming apparent to me why that view is not as strong as I once thought. I know most people are not as into necessarily walking in the shoes of deep consideration on other views because of the obvious dangers inherent. But on that day of learning the 7th Trumpet rapture view, I had seen God demonstrate in scripture over and over and over again how pretrib is not that easy to dismiss. To my surprise...because I would be open to any view that made the most biblical and exegtical sense. And that view just happens to be pretrib. Like actually not by a little, but by a lot. Because I put in quite a bit of effort to allowed it in my heart to honestly be challenged.

So when I got to the 7th Trumpet rapture view, for me, this was next level. And seamingly unbreakable. But through some careful days of thought and brotherly care, it became clear how that view has holes too. And how exceedingly strong the sense of why its called the 70th week utterly matters. But on this issue, it is much much less a hill to die on, amen. So thanks for saying Pastor it could be either. I had been fine thinking it was both church and OT saints. But as I look at it now, what is actually on the plate for me with views of this nature is not necessarily the thing we are discussing as if it were the apple on the tree branch dangling. Rather, my approach to scripture often is to consider that 1 apple dangling by shaking all the branches of that tree and see what falls first. In this case, for me, Dan 12 and Rev 20:4 make so much more sense now why they are what they are and their exegetical potential. And in seeing that, what is for me of greater value (like buying the whole farm for that one lot on it where treasure is buried) is how God has seen fit to layout scripture. Which can become a lantern to the feet of exegetical discernment.

. . . . .

This was the case for me with the book of Revelation. It was a book I purposely stayed away from for decades. Then in 2017 I decided to deep dive. I had to put the commentaries away because they were all saying different things, themes, and approaches. So by just reading it over and over for 8 weeks a lot of the themes and style started to make their own path of general layout. And what I would see as "a" healthy framework for it emerge. Now when this or that comes up, I have kind of a bulwork of Rev layout (in kind of its generic enormous playing field) by which to compare and contrast. How things could or could not fit spoken. So i guess in a way I tend to strive for the macro by the micro. Learning like that piece of info here and there that brings "general layout" principals likely clearer in view. Of course there is always errors that can be made in surmising templates like that. But from what i have seen, this approach tends to work for me in general. So thanks for seeing the value :) Blessings.
 
Who Will be Raptured? The answer is the Church. Those who died in faith previous to the Church age will have to wait a bit longer to get their new bodies.

From Footsteps of the Messiah, pgs 142-149, by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

B. The Rapture of the Church

In this section, the rapture will be discussed in detail, followed by the timing of this event.

1. The Actual Event
Three key passages need to be studied for an understanding of the rapture. They are John 14:1-3, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, and I Corinthians 15:50-58.

a. John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

While this passage does not detail the rapture, it contains the promise of it: Yeshua promised to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time or the circumstances, only the fact that He will come for His saints. The purpose is to take them to where He was then going. Since Yeshua was then going to heaven, this is a coming to take the saints to heaven and not to the earth. This is important because in post tribulationism, the saints meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to the earth. But that is not the promise here. Yeshua is coming to take the saints to heaven. This fits well with pretribulationism.

b. I Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Yeshua will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage describes the course of the rapture. In verses 13-15, Paul answered a question that was raised in Thessalonica: Do believers who have died miss out on the benefits of the rapture? The people who asked this question understood that there was a rapture to come, but they did not understand how dead saints would be involved in the event. Apparently, while Paul had been with them, he had taught some truths concerning the rapture as it related to the living, but not to the dead. But now, some believers had passed away, and those they left behind were distressed not knowing what the future had in store for them. So, Paul comforted the bereaved family members with the truth that dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture; in fact, they will receive them first.

Speaking of the death of believers, Paul said that they were “asleep” (v. 13). When used as a synonym for death, the term “sleep” is applied to believers only, never to unbelievers. Thus, the Bible views the death of believers as a temporary suspension of physical activity until the believer awakens at the rapture. Just as physical sleep is temporary (a temporary suspension of physical activity until one awakens, yet there is no suspension of mental activity), so is death: It is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one awakens at the resurrection. Therefore, I Thessalonians 4:13 does not teach “soul sleeping,” for there is no cessation of spirit-soul activity, only of physical activity.

Having stated that the dead believers benefit from the rapture before the living do, Paul spells out the chronological sequence of the rapture in seven stages to show why this is true (vv. 16-17). First, the Lord himself shall descend from heaven. At some point in the future, Yeshua will come out of the heaven of heavens and descend into the atmospheric heavens.

Second, the Lord’s descent will happen with a shout. The Greek word used is that of a command of a military leader who comes out of his tent and issues an order. One day, the Chief Commander will come out of His heavenly tent and give the order for the resurrection and the translation to occur.

Third, the Lord’s descent will also happen with the voice of the archangel. Angels are often used to put God’s plan into motion. Michael the Archangel will be used in the case of the rapture. The content of what the voice says is not stated. But if known military procedure can be applied to this situation, then this is simply a repetition of the original order. The sub-commander repeats the order (the “shout”) of the chief commander. Yeshua will give the command for the course of the rapture to begin, and it is Michael’s task to set it into motion, so he repeats the command.

Fourth, the Lord’s descent will also happen with the trump of God. The sound of the trumpet was used as a summons either to battle or to worship. With Michael’s repetition of the command, the trumpet sounds, and this triggers the rapture itself. Thus, this trumpet serves as a summons for the plan to get into motion.

Fifth, the dead in Messiah shall rise first. This is the resurrection, and it is why the dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture. To the contrary, they will begin to enjoy the benefits of the rapture first. The expression “in Messiah” limits the resurrection at the time of the rapture to those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body, which only began in Acts 2. Thus, this resurrection of dead saints is to be limited to church saints only. The Old Testament saints will be resurrected at a later point in God’s prophetic program.

Sixth, then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds. The resurrection of the dead saints is followed by the translation of the living saints. Every believer without exception will be removed from the earth and will be united with the Lord Yeshua in the heavens. The living believers will be caught up with the dead ones. The expression “to be caught up” is the source of the term “rapture.” The Greek word used in I Thessalonians 4:17 is harpazo. When the verse was translated into Latin, the word rapio was used. The English word “rapture” comes from this Latin source. Charles Ryrie explains:

Rapture is a state or experience of being carried away. The English word comes from a Latin word, rapio, which means to seize or snatch in relation to an ecstasy of spirit or the actual removal from one place to another. In other words, it means to be carried away in spirit or in body. The Rapture of the church means the carrying away of the church from earth to heaven.[32]

Seventh, the raptured saints will meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord. Both the resurrected dead believers and translated living believers will meet the Messiah in the air. Once they have been united with Him in the air, they will permanently remain with Him and return with Him into heaven, as already promised in John 14:1-3.

It should be noted that I Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not provide details as to the timing of the rapture, as it focuses on the chronological sequence in which the events will occur.

c. I Corinthians 15:50-58
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua Messiah. 58 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

This passage deals with the change in the nature of the bodies of the raptured saints. Verse 50 declares the necessity of this change, stating that flesh and blood are unable to inherit the kingdom of God, and decay cannot inherit immortality. The background to this statement is found in Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

This is further developed in Genesis 3:17-19:

17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have hearkened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the herb of the field; 19 in the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.

Because of sin, man has become subject to corruption and mortality. All men are seen as guilty, by imputation, of participating in Adam’s sin, according to Romans 5:12-14:

12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: 13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

Mankind is living under the sentence of death, where his physical body is subject to corruption and mortality. The sin nature is in it, and the results of sin are evident in the death of the body. This kind of body, subject to sin, mortality, death, and corruption, cannot enter into the eternal state. A change will be necessary (resurrection or translation) before the bodies can enter the kingdom of God.

In verses 51-52, the change is described. The emphasis is on the rapidity of the event. It will be done in an instant. The Greek word for “instant” is atomos. The word “atom” originates from this term. The emphasis is that the change will happen in an “atom” of time. It will be that quick. Furthermore, it will be in the twinkling of an eye. This is not a reference to blinking, but rather to a sudden flash of recognition. It is like seeing a person, and then in a sudden flash recognizing who he is. It is this sudden flash of recognition that is meant by the “twinkling of an eye,” and so, the expression also emphasizes the rapidity of the change.

The event is said to happen at the time of the last trump. Both midtribulationists and posttribulationists try to identify this trump with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation. However, when Paul wrote I Corinthians, Revelation had not been written yet. The Corinthians would not have had any knowledge of seven trumpets. But Paul used the definite article “the” before “last trump,” and so he must have expected his readers to know what he was talking about. The only knowledge they would have of trumpets are those spoken of in the Old Testament. The last trump refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing shofars during this feast. There are a series of short trumpet sounds followed by one long trumpet blast which is called the tekiah gedolah, “the great trumpet blast.” This is what Paul meant by “the last trump.” As such, it says nothing concerning the timing of the rapture; only that the rapture, whenever it comes, will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets. Furthermore, the last trump is the same as the trump of God found in I Thessalonians 4:16. This verse explained that at the sound of the last trump, the dead are raised as incorruptible, and the living will be changed. According to verse 52, the problem that keeps the dead body out of heaven, corruption, will be changed through the resurrection, and the body will become incorruptible. The mortal living will put on immortality through translation.

The nature of the glorified body is not the subject of much revelation. What is revealed clearly about the resurrection body is found in I Corinthians 15:35-49 and 53, where Paul made six points:

It is an incorruptible body (v. 42).
It is a glorified body (v. 43).[33]
It is a body of resurrection power (v. 43).
It is a spiritual body (vv. 44-46).
It is a heavenly body (vv. 47-49).
It is also an immortal body (v. 53).
It is possible that additional information as to the nature of the glorified body of the believer may be gleaned from a study of the nature of Yeshua’s resurrected body. But some caution must be used, as this source of information has one major drawback: It is not always easy to determine if what was true of the body of Yeshua was due to His resurrection or due to His deity. Thus, some of the following observations concerning His body could possibly be true of all resurrected bodies. But they may not all be true, for some may be related to His divinity. The following list summarizes these attributes of Yeshua’s body:

✡ Yeshua’s voice was recognized as being the same as the one He had before His death and resurrection (Jn. 20:16).
✡ His physical features were recognized, though not always immediately (Jn. 20:26-29; 21:7).
✡ It was a very real body of flesh and bone, since it was embraceable (Jn. 20:17, 27).
✡ The resurrected Messiah was able to suddenly disappear (Lk. 24:31) and go through walls (Jn. 20:19).
✡ It was a body that was able to eat food (Lk. 24:41-43).
A number of these attributes may be true of all resurrected bodies, but whether this is the case cannot be known until the rapture.

First Corinthians 15:54-58 explains that the change from corruption to incorruption and from mortality to immortality results in the final victory over death.
Thanks TT. For now I only got as far as a. John 14:1-3. But will check the rest out later. At this point though, two questions emerge.

1. Based on this view, it would seem to imply that the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth would not include the resurrected church? But that we would be stationed in heaven...not the earth?

2. 24 Elders (Rev 4, 5, and 19) -- There are varying views on what they are. One view is that this is both the church and the OT saints resurrected. If the OT saints are not resurrected until after the tribulation, then this view can't be accurate. If it is the church raptured, what would the 24 stand for?

What would be your understanding on this brother? Thanks :)
 
As Mattfivefour stated, it is not worth arguing or debating about. So I will make this last point for those who agree with me and just want to know how I would respond, not to get into a debate with anyone who disagrees. 😊

In the three verses below Paul is reassuring those he is speaking to that their relatives and friends who are believers that have died will be resurrected.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


In the next two verses Paul states that the dead in Christ will be Raptured before those who are still alive.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


In the next verse Paul states why he has stated what he did, as it should comfort them who are concerned about their relatives and friends that have already died.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So I am sure some who Paul is speaking with have relatives or friends that died before Jesus arrived. If Paul is not including them, don't you think someone would have asked what happens to them? Also, what would be the purpose of Jesus choosing a different time to resurrect the bodies of the Old Testament Saints. :noidea:

OK, I am done and will not continue to make my point as it is not a salvation issue.

God Bless! :)
Thanks Goodboy. Just on that point though in question. I would just say the possibility of resurrecting the OT saints at a different time to be because the church and Israel have been greatly shown as having distinction. Currently any Jew can become a part of the church. But the nation of Israel itself would seem to have yet an upcoming plan for the tribulation period. In that sense, I would just humbly interject that the reason the rapture is pretrib, is because of this distinction. Should God carry that distinction out, Rev 20:4-6 makes an excellent case for OT Israel to rule with Christ on earth for a thousand years. And the exegetical linkage be unmistakable. At least in how it seems to lay it out.

It is this section in scripture where I wonder if the church is "grafted" in perse for this reign as well because of such verses like Rev 3:

21The one who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne. 22 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Not sure if that means with Christ during the thousand year reign. But it sounds pretty stellar. Perhaps a different sort of rule? Blessings.
 
Thanks Goodboy. Just on that point though in question. I would just say the possibility of resurrecting the OT saints at a different time to be because the church and Israel have been greatly shown as having distinction.
TCC as you seem to still have some interest in this and have replied to others and me, I will respond to what you stated to me. However, as not to cause an argument or debate with anyone, I will PM directly to you with my reply. 😊
 
TCC as you seem to still have some interest in this and have replied to others and me, I will respond to what you stated to me. However, as not to cause an argument or debate I will PM you with my reply. 😊
Thanks Goodboy. For me, i don't view discussion as debate, or differing views to be devisive. They can be. But on their face, with respect and gracious care...we will someday judge angels. I appreciate your heart in the matter brother, in how you might consider to reply. Blessings.
 
Thanks TT. For now I only got as far as a. John 14:1-3. But will check the rest out later. At this point though, two questions emerge.

1. Based on this view, it would seem to imply that the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth would not include the resurrected church? But that we would be stationed in heaven...not the earth?

2. 24 Elders (Rev 4, 5, and 19) -- There are varying views on what they are. One view is that this is both the church and the OT saints resurrected. If the OT saints are not resurrected until after the tribulation, then this view can't be accurate. If it is the church raptured, what would the 24 stand for?

What would be your understanding on this brother? Thanks :)

1) The Body of Christ will co-reign during the Millennium. Arnold Fruchtenbaum delves into the reigning role of the Body of Christ in Footsteps of the Messiah, so in the first point I think you're mis-reading the content.

2) OT saints are in heaven now, just without their new bodies. Jesus cleaned out Abraham's Bosom after His death. As far as the 24 Elders, I've read several ideas about that. As for me, I'm content to wait and find out because so far anyway, I haven't been able to make a Word-based determination of who they are.
 
1) The Body of Christ will co-reign during the Millennium. Arnold Fruchtenbaum delves into the reigning role of the Body of Christ in Footsteps of the Messiah, so in the first point I think you're mis-reading the content.

2) OT saints are in heaven now, just without their new bodies. Jesus cleaned out Abraham's Bosom after His death. As far as the 24 Elders, I've read several ideas about that. As for me, I'm content to wait and find out because so far anyway, I haven't been able to make a Word-based determination of who they are.
Thanks TT. I actually have the book. I should check it out. I was just responding to the statement:

"While this passage does not detail the rapture, it contains the promise of it: Yeshua promised to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time or the circumstances, only the fact that He will come for His saints. The purpose is to take them to where He was then going. Since Yeshua was then going to heaven, this is a coming to take the saints to heaven and not to the earth. This is important because in post tribulationism, the saints meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to the earth. But that is not the promise here. Yeshua is coming to take the saints to heaven. This fits well with pretribulationism."

But you are likely referring to perhaps what else Arnold gets into. Plus I imagine that when it says that we will forever be with the Lord, well, if He rules in Jerusalem, we'd be there too would be the implication likely. But yeah, interested to check out Arnold on this. Because I never really got into the weeds much on if the church is part of that 1,000 year reign on earth deal.

On point 2, thanks. Yeah, its a tricky one. The one I actually favored was 12 tribes + 12 Apostles (of the to become church). So that made sense. But if the casting of crowns implies rewards at the resurrected beama seat and the OT saints don't have that yet, it would not neatly fit. Thanks for your reply brother. Blessings.
 
On point 2, thanks. Yeah, its a tricky one. The one I actually favored was 12 tribes + 12 Apostles (of the to become church). So that made sense.

When I can't find the answer to something of interest in the Word, either I haven't found the answer or it isn't there. If it isn't there I don't usually chase that rabbit, although sometimes I catch myself doing that. I find that playing the guessing game isn't productive, generally speaking. On lots of topics for which there isn't a definite answer, I'm content to wait until I'm in heaven to know.

I have this thought that the answer to most everything is in the Bible somewhere, we're just not smart enough to see those things we can't find the answer to, or maybe... maybe sometimes we're not meant to know until later.

I'm good with whoever those 24 are.
 
When I can't find the answer to something of interest in the Word, either I haven't found the answer or it isn't there. If it isn't there I don't usually chase that rabbit, although sometimes I catch myself doing that. I find that playing the guessing game isn't productive, generally speaking. On lots of topics for which there isn't a definite answer, I'm content to wait until I'm in heaven to know.

I have this thought that the answer to most everything is in the Bible somewhere, we're just not smart enough to see those things we can't find the answer to, or maybe... maybe sometimes we're not meant to know until later.

I'm good with whoever those 24 are.
Yes me too brother. Amen. But I don't chase it to know about them...exactly. It does have other ramifications though :p potentially...just sayin
 
Fifth, the dead in Messiah shall rise first. This is the resurrection, and it is why the dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture. To the contrary, they will begin to enjoy the benefits of the rapture first. The expression “in Messiah” limits the resurrection at the time of the rapture to those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body, which only began in Acts 2. Thus, this resurrection of dead saints is to be limited to church saints only. The Old Testament saints will be resurrected at a later point in God’s prophetic program.
Great explanation on this debated topic.
 
Thanks TT. I actually have the book. I should check it out. I was just responding to the statement:

"While this passage does not detail the rapture, it contains the promise of it: Yeshua promised to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time or the circumstances, only the fact that He will come for His saints. The purpose is to take them to where He was then going. Since Yeshua was then going to heaven, this is a coming to take the saints to heaven and not to the earth. This is important because in post tribulationism, the saints meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to the earth. But that is not the promise here. Yeshua is coming to take the saints to heaven. This fits well with pretribulationism."
The distinction that the Fruct is making is framed around the pre-trib post- trib debate. Pre-trib believes we will meet Jesus mid sky to join Him in Heaven. Post-trib thinks He is coming to earth to be with His bride, no ‘secret’ rapture, though some believe the bride is raptured at the end of the 7-years. Here’s something to better explain from the Gospel Coalition (no link, I don’t recommend learning from them).

“The belief in the rapture is widely held among most evangelicals. The basis for the rapture primarily 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 regarding the hope for believers of a future resurrection of their bodies. This resurrection will occur in the last days at or near the time when Jesus returns to earth. The question is whether or not the rapture is a separate and distinct event from the second coming of Christ or if it occurs simultaneously when Christ returns to earth at the end of the tribulation. Those who affirm a pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and pre-wrath view of the rapture see it as a separate or secret return of Christ for the church occurring well before he actually returns to the earth publicly. Those who affirm a post-tribulation view see the rapture as occurring simultaneous to the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.”
 
Who Will be Raptured? The answer is the Church. Those who died in faith previous to the Church age will have to wait a bit longer to get their new bodies.

From Footsteps of the Messiah, pgs 142-149, by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

B. The Rapture of the Church

In this section, the rapture will be discussed in detail, followed by the timing of this event.

1. The Actual Event
Three key passages need to be studied for an understanding of the rapture. They are John 14:1-3, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, and I Corinthians 15:50-58.

a. John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

While this passage does not detail the rapture, it contains the promise of it: Yeshua promised to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time or the circumstances, only the fact that He will come for His saints. The purpose is to take them to where He was then going. Since Yeshua was then going to heaven, this is a coming to take the saints to heaven and not to the earth. This is important because in post tribulationism, the saints meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to the earth. But that is not the promise here. Yeshua is coming to take the saints to heaven. This fits well with pretribulationism.

b. I Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Yeshua will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage describes the course of the rapture. In verses 13-15, Paul answered a question that was raised in Thessalonica: Do believers who have died miss out on the benefits of the rapture? The people who asked this question understood that there was a rapture to come, but they did not understand how dead saints would be involved in the event. Apparently, while Paul had been with them, he had taught some truths concerning the rapture as it related to the living, but not to the dead. But now, some believers had passed away, and those they left behind were distressed not knowing what the future had in store for them. So, Paul comforted the bereaved family members with the truth that dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture; in fact, they will receive them first.

Speaking of the death of believers, Paul said that they were “asleep” (v. 13). When used as a synonym for death, the term “sleep” is applied to believers only, never to unbelievers. Thus, the Bible views the death of believers as a temporary suspension of physical activity until the believer awakens at the rapture. Just as physical sleep is temporary (a temporary suspension of physical activity until one awakens, yet there is no suspension of mental activity), so is death: It is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one awakens at the resurrection. Therefore, I Thessalonians 4:13 does not teach “soul sleeping,” for there is no cessation of spirit-soul activity, only of physical activity.

Having stated that the dead believers benefit from the rapture before the living do, Paul spells out the chronological sequence of the rapture in seven stages to show why this is true (vv. 16-17). First, the Lord himself shall descend from heaven. At some point in the future, Yeshua will come out of the heaven of heavens and descend into the atmospheric heavens.

Second, the Lord’s descent will happen with a shout. The Greek word used is that of a command of a military leader who comes out of his tent and issues an order. One day, the Chief Commander will come out of His heavenly tent and give the order for the resurrection and the translation to occur.

Third, the Lord’s descent will also happen with the voice of the archangel. Angels are often used to put God’s plan into motion. Michael the Archangel will be used in the case of the rapture. The content of what the voice says is not stated. But if known military procedure can be applied to this situation, then this is simply a repetition of the original order. The sub-commander repeats the order (the “shout”) of the chief commander. Yeshua will give the command for the course of the rapture to begin, and it is Michael’s task to set it into motion, so he repeats the command.

Fourth, the Lord’s descent will also happen with the trump of God. The sound of the trumpet was used as a summons either to battle or to worship. With Michael’s repetition of the command, the trumpet sounds, and this triggers the rapture itself. Thus, this trumpet serves as a summons for the plan to get into motion.

Fifth, the dead in Messiah shall rise first. This is the resurrection, and it is why the dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture. To the contrary, they will begin to enjoy the benefits of the rapture first. The expression “in Messiah” limits the resurrection at the time of the rapture to those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body, which only began in Acts 2. Thus, this resurrection of dead saints is to be limited to church saints only. The Old Testament saints will be resurrected at a later point in God’s prophetic program.

Sixth, then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds. The resurrection of the dead saints is followed by the translation of the living saints. Every believer without exception will be removed from the earth and will be united with the Lord Yeshua in the heavens. The living believers will be caught up with the dead ones. The expression “to be caught up” is the source of the term “rapture.” The Greek word used in I Thessalonians 4:17 is harpazo. When the verse was translated into Latin, the word rapio was used. The English word “rapture” comes from this Latin source. Charles Ryrie explains:

Rapture is a state or experience of being carried away. The English word comes from a Latin word, rapio, which means to seize or snatch in relation to an ecstasy of spirit or the actual removal from one place to another. In other words, it means to be carried away in spirit or in body. The Rapture of the church means the carrying away of the church from earth to heaven.[32]

Seventh, the raptured saints will meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord. Both the resurrected dead believers and translated living believers will meet the Messiah in the air. Once they have been united with Him in the air, they will permanently remain with Him and return with Him into heaven, as already promised in John 14:1-3.

It should be noted that I Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not provide details as to the timing of the rapture, as it focuses on the chronological sequence in which the events will occur.

c. I Corinthians 15:50-58
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua Messiah. 58 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

This passage deals with the change in the nature of the bodies of the raptured saints. Verse 50 declares the necessity of this change, stating that flesh and blood are unable to inherit the kingdom of God, and decay cannot inherit immortality. The background to this statement is found in Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

This is further developed in Genesis 3:17-19:

17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have hearkened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the herb of the field; 19 in the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.

Because of sin, man has become subject to corruption and mortality. All men are seen as guilty, by imputation, of participating in Adam’s sin, according to Romans 5:12-14:

12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: 13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

Mankind is living under the sentence of death, where his physical body is subject to corruption and mortality. The sin nature is in it, and the results of sin are evident in the death of the body. This kind of body, subject to sin, mortality, death, and corruption, cannot enter into the eternal state. A change will be necessary (resurrection or translation) before the bodies can enter the kingdom of God.

In verses 51-52, the change is described. The emphasis is on the rapidity of the event. It will be done in an instant. The Greek word for “instant” is atomos. The word “atom” originates from this term. The emphasis is that the change will happen in an “atom” of time. It will be that quick. Furthermore, it will be in the twinkling of an eye. This is not a reference to blinking, but rather to a sudden flash of recognition. It is like seeing a person, and then in a sudden flash recognizing who he is. It is this sudden flash of recognition that is meant by the “twinkling of an eye,” and so, the expression also emphasizes the rapidity of the change.

The event is said to happen at the time of the last trump. Both midtribulationists and posttribulationists try to identify this trump with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation. However, when Paul wrote I Corinthians, Revelation had not been written yet. The Corinthians would not have had any knowledge of seven trumpets. But Paul used the definite article “the” before “last trump,” and so he must have expected his readers to know what he was talking about. The only knowledge they would have of trumpets are those spoken of in the Old Testament. The last trump refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing shofars during this feast. There are a series of short trumpet sounds followed by one long trumpet blast which is called the tekiah gedolah, “the great trumpet blast.” This is what Paul meant by “the last trump.” As such, it says nothing concerning the timing of the rapture; only that the rapture, whenever it comes, will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets. Furthermore, the last trump is the same as the trump of God found in I Thessalonians 4:16. This verse explained that at the sound of the last trump, the dead are raised as incorruptible, and the living will be changed. According to verse 52, the problem that keeps the dead body out of heaven, corruption, will be changed through the resurrection, and the body will become incorruptible. The mortal living will put on immortality through translation.

The nature of the glorified body is not the subject of much revelation. What is revealed clearly about the resurrection body is found in I Corinthians 15:35-49 and 53, where Paul made six points:

It is an incorruptible body (v. 42).
It is a glorified body (v. 43).[33]
It is a body of resurrection power (v. 43).
It is a spiritual body (vv. 44-46).
It is a heavenly body (vv. 47-49).
It is also an immortal body (v. 53).
It is possible that additional information as to the nature of the glorified body of the believer may be gleaned from a study of the nature of Yeshua’s resurrected body. But some caution must be used, as this source of information has one major drawback: It is not always easy to determine if what was true of the body of Yeshua was due to His resurrection or due to His deity. Thus, some of the following observations concerning His body could possibly be true of all resurrected bodies. But they may not all be true, for some may be related to His divinity. The following list summarizes these attributes of Yeshua’s body:

✡ Yeshua’s voice was recognized as being the same as the one He had before His death and resurrection (Jn. 20:16).
✡ His physical features were recognized, though not always immediately (Jn. 20:26-29; 21:7).
✡ It was a very real body of flesh and bone, since it was embraceable (Jn. 20:17, 27).
✡ The resurrected Messiah was able to suddenly disappear (Lk. 24:31) and go through walls (Jn. 20:19).
✡ It was a body that was able to eat food (Lk. 24:41-43).
A number of these attributes may be true of all resurrected bodies, but whether this is the case cannot be known until the rapture.

First Corinthians 15:54-58 explains that the change from corruption to incorruption and from mortality to immortality results in the final victory over death.
Great info!

However, I’ve got a bone to pick with you TT! Not really!

I’ve been studying “Footsteps…” and I can’t put it down! Between the three studies that I’m involved with at church, I’ve been working my way through this and it is the richest source of information for believers! Especially those whose daughter and her husband are both “Ammil”. 🙄

Now I’m armed for the next time I’m told that Darby is the “father of the Rapture theory.” I knew this before this book, but I feel so much more confident and equipped! That’s not the only reason for my interest though. There are some very execellent points and I’ve just started on the section dealing with the Rapture!
 
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