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Is Futurism a false doctrine?

Hobie

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The Protestant Reformers, including John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin,, John Knox, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, Jonathan Edwards, and John Wesley and many others as well as most Protestants believers held to the view of Historicism in Christian eschatology. That the Early Church of Christ and the Apostles, had been led into the Great Apostasy by the Papacy and identified the Pope with the Antichrist. This caused a problem for the Roman Catholic church so they turned to their most devoted scholars to come up with a different interpretation of Bible prophecy to come up with a different view. So they turned to two who were summoned to push back the reformers' teachings, and we see their work today.

Spanish Jesuit Francisco Ribera published a commentary on the book of Revelation which proposed that the bulk of the prophecies would be fulfilled in a brief three-and-one-half-year period at the end of the Christian era, known as Futurism. In that short space a single individual, according to Ribera, would rebuild the Temple, deny Christ, abolish Christianity, be received by the Jews, pretend to be god, and conquer the world. Thus the Protestant contention that the apocalyptic symbols pointing to the Roman Catholic church as an apostate religious system was push aside, and the focus of the prophecies was diverted from that time to the far distant future.

Then you have another Spanish Jesuit, Luis de Alcazar come up and published a scholarly work on Revelation, to also refute the Protestant Reformation view. Alcazar's wrote that all the prophecies of Revelation had been fulfilled in the past in the early centuries of Christianity. Alcazar writings were developed into a system of interpretation known as preterism.

Over time these specific systems of counter interpretations of the Antichrist spread and began to penetrate Protestant thought. Preterism was the first; it began to enter Protestantism in the late eighteenth century. Preterist interpretations of the prophecies have today become very widespread today in Protestantism. Then the ideas of futurism, although refuted at first, eventually spread into Protestantism during the nineteenth century. So the questions becomes, if these interpretation were deliberate works by these 'priests' of the Roman Catholic church to counter the Reformation, should Christians even be using it?
 
I don't think any serious Christian uses some external technique to interpret Scripture: they simple draw from Scripture what Scripture says. For me, years of exegesis of Scripture have led me long ago to a view that could best be described as dispensational premillennialism. This, by definition, is a form of Futurism. But it certainly didn't come from some RCC teaching.

I have explored Historicism and found it to be a form of extended Preterism. To me it is an obsolete and failed method of Bible interpretation. It was popular among the reformers who lived in times when the modern world, in particular the return of the Jews to their homeland and its creation as a nation once again, was unimaginable. That combined with their natural (considering what they were fighting against) focus on the papacy led them into this view---a view I have come to consider as erroneous. It seemed to work well until the modern day and the events of modern history.

I do not believe there is any real doubt that we are currently living in the end times, exactly as the Bible --when viewed without learned a priori preconceptions-- describes would happen. And I am looking forward to all God has told us is yet to come.
 
I don't think any serious Christian uses some external technique to interpret Scripture: they simple draw from Scripture what Scripture says. For me, years of exegesis of Scripture have led me long ago to a view that could best be described as dispensational premillennialism. This, by definition, is a form of Futurism. But it certainly didn't come from some RCC teaching.

I have explored Historicism and found it to be a form of extended Preterism. To me it is an obsolete and failed method of Bible interpretation. It was popular among the reformers who lived in times when the modern world, in particular the return of the Jews to their homeland and its creation as a nation once again, was unimaginable. That combined with their natural (considering what they were fighting against) focus on the papacy led them into this view---a view I have come to consider as erroneous. It seemed to work well until the modern day and the events of modern history.

I do not believe there is any real doubt that we are currently living in the end times, exactly as the Bible --when viewed without learned a priori preconceptions-- describes would happen. And I am looking forward to all God has told us is yet to come.
And yet they keep getting fulfilled much like the birth of Christ, so needs to be looked at and studied to see what it reveals for us..
 
I'm curious.
Lets look at what history shows, as the Roman Catholic Church back in the Dark Ages, maintained a close relationship with the state, bringing together church and state to rule with the power of the state. We see the consequences that arose from the close alignment of church and state, including how it persecuted any who disagreed with its doctrines, the Inquisition with its devastation, the Crusades which did much damage to the Jews it came across as well as to the Muslims, and its wars on peoples to force out and deny the religious rights by force using the state. This relationship has evolved over time as the Reformation fought its influence on the Kings and leaders of the nations, but its stance on who is a heretic and dissenter and religious freedom has not.

Now look at what we see today...
President Trump quipped about “forgetting” the separation of church and state and declared “we’re bringing religion back to our country” during a National Day of Prayer event on Thursday.
“They said separation of church and state, they told me. I said, let’s forget about that for one time. We said, really? Separation? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I’m not sure,” Trump remarked during the Rose Garden ceremony... https://www.dailywire.com/news/trum...ringing-religion-back-as-new-commission-forms

"Americans are used to hearing about the tradition of separating church and state, but the two are increasingly fused in President Donald Trump’s administration.
The First Amendment, after all, in addition to guaranteeing free speech, says that Congress shall “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”... https://www.cnn.com/2025/09/22/politics/kirk-funeral-trump-christianity-government-analysis

"Project 2025's impact on the separation of church and state is significant. The plan envisions a complete upheaval of the federal government's structure and priorities, which could lead to a shift towards authoritarian theocracy.
In discussions about burgeoning threats to American democracy, church-state separation and the many rights and freedoms that depend on them, a movement called Project 2025 looms large.

“This initiative, spearheaded by the billion-dollar Shadow Network of Christian Nationalist organizations and their political allies we’ve been warning you about, is a substantial threat to church-state separation and the future of our democracy,”..https://www.au.org/the-latest/church-and-state/articles/destroying-life-and-liberty-a-christian-nationalist-playbook-outlines-a-broad-scheme-to-overthrow-american-democracy-and-install-a-theocracy/

We see the collapse of the safeguard of our religious freedom looming and the rise of Christian Nationalism and the joining of church and state again.... What exactly is Christian nationalism and how does it manifest?
 
I hear what you are saying, brother (even though I completely disagree with your view of the constitutional meaning and purpose of the so-called separation of church and state.) But, respectfully, even if you were correct, I fail to see how we can arrive at the view you espouse without resorting to an exegesis of the biblical texts. That was, after all, the point that @Matthew6:33 was making: that without exegetical biblical interpretation we cannot discern anything prophetically.
 
I hear what you are saying, brother (even though I completely disagree with your view of the constitutional meaning and purpose of the so-called separation of church and state.) But, respectfully, even if you were correct, I fail to see how we can arrive at the view you espouse without resorting to an exegesis of the biblical texts. That was, after all, the point that @Matthew6:33 was making: that without exegetical biblical interpretation we cannot discern anything prophetically.
Well, you see it can be easily explained that even an atheist could understand. Now whether they believe it, is another matter that would then need to be addressed. My plea is ls let me address these issues, and fully explain them and how they come together, who is the Beast, who is the Image, then all can choose whether to accept or reject what God unveils for us.
 
Well, you see it can be easily explained that even an atheist could understand. Now whether they believe it, is another matter that would then need to be addressed. My plea is ls let me address these issues, and fully explain them and how they come together, who is the Beast, who is the Image, then all can choose whether to accept or reject what God unveils for us.
Alright. Providing you use Scripture alone.
 
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Alright. Providing you use Scripture alone.
Thats fair enough, but to lay the ground work lets look at who the Protestant Reformers saw before Futurism and Preterism was brought in by the Jesuits and caused the distortion we see today in what Christians believe.

The Protestant Reformers used the historicist method of interpretation for the prophecies in the Daniel and Revelation and see clearly what came as a result, "nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalts himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God.” (1646 Westminster Confession of Faith)



So there is firm ground to stand on when the Papacy is held to be the AntiChrist power which is the Beast of Revelation. That Babylon the Great, and Man of Sin and Son of Perdition, Little Horn power of prophecy that usurped the early church from Christ. So we can start with Daniel and work our way from there if that is ok...
 

“Revelation in Late Antiquity and the Early Church.​

Chiliasm. As Wainwright discusses, Chiliastic of Revelation interpretation predominated during the second and third centures of this era. Chiliasts (from the Greek for "thousand," chilioi) took a literal interpretation of Rev 20:4-5 and looked forward to a thousand year reign with Christ on earth. The word "millenarian" (from the Latin for "thousand year," mille annus), is used today for people who take a literal view of this passage. Chiliastic readings in the second century ce tended towards materialistic interpretation of the millennium kingdom and the wealth described in the New Jerusalem. Wainwright mentions a number of important early church figures who were also Chiliasts; chief among these are Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian (others, such as Hippolytus and Lactanius, are not as important for the development of Christian doctrine and dogma).
Justin Martyr is the first Christian author to write on the Apocalypse. In his "Dialogue with Trypho" chapter 80, he claims that all "right-minded Christians" believe that "there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declars." He goes on to write in chapter 81: "And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Chirst would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place."

Irenaeus, towards the end of the second century, also takes a Chiliastic interpretation of Revelation. In his "The Refutation (Detection) and Overthrow of Gnosis Falsely So-Called," usually called "Adversus Haereses" or "Against Heresies," he writes of the millenium:

"John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first "resurrection of the just,"(7) and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. The apostle, too, has confessed that the creation shall be free from the bondage of corruption, [so as to pass] into the liberty of the sons of God. (8) And in all these things, and by them all, the same God the Father is manifested, who fashioned man, and gave promise of the inheritance of the earth to the fathers, who brought it (the creature) forth [from bondage] at the resurrection of the just, and fulfils the promises for the kingdom of His Son; subsequently bestowing in a paternal manner those things which neither the eye has seen, nor the ear has heard, nor has [thought concerning them] arisen within the heart of man,(9) For there is the one Son, who accomplished His Father's will; and one human race also in which the mysteries of God are wrought, "which the angels desire to look into;"(10) and they are not able to search out the wisdom of God, by means of Which His handiwork, confirmed and incorporated with His Son, is brought to perfection; that His offspring, the First-begotten Word, should descend to the creature (facturam), that is, to what had been moulded (plasma), and that it should be contained by Him; and, on the other hand, the creature should contain the Word, and ascend to Him, passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God.”

Paper from here: https://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/royaltyr/chiliaug.html

Then the ideas of futurism, although refuted at first, eventually spread into Protestantism during the nineteenth century.
Your church history doesn’t go back to the second century as it should.

A huge influence toward a non-literal interpretation came from the RCC’s beloved Augustine. (I don’t think he should be beloved. He introduced many heretical errors.)
 
I agree with Hol. The early Church, the one we should look to for an understanding of doctrine, was futurist.That is indisputable, based on the writings of the Church Fathers.

The problem with looking to the Reformers for doctrine is they were caught up in a terrible world in which an oppressive and anti-Bible organization essentially ruled almost every aspect of life. Their view was warped by the RCC giant they faced and by the fact that they could not see future prophecy as being real since clearly (among other things) to them Israel would never again be a nation.

My friend, we owe the Reformers a MASSIVE debt for standing up to false religion and preserving the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. Often at the risk of their own lives. Because of them and their sacrifices we have the doctrine of the full word of God and, therefore, the true faith preserved. Glory to God!

BUT ...

... that is where our attention to the Reformers needs to end. Due to the circumstances in which they lived, their views of much else were, quite simply, wrong. I'll point to John Calvin as just one key example if how wrong they could be.

So, if you are intending to discuss futurism through the eyes of the reformers, I will ask you not to bother. Respectfully, the Reformers have no credibility here in that regard. They were simply wrong when saying "the Early Church of Christ and the Apostles had been led into the Great Apostasy by the Papacy." Regardless of RCC pseudo-history, the papacy did not appear until 200 years later (middle of the third century.) So, if your appeal is to their writing, please forget it. Not here.

If you want to exegete from Scripture, then that is another matter. I'll wait for your response before deciding whether to end this thread.
 
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