How Close Are We to the Rapture?

[Goodboy]

He doesn't want any to perish, even though as Jesus points out in Matthew 7:13 that few find salvation.

You may want to read a thread I started below which is just my opinion, not saying you are wrong.

Thread 'Narrow is the Gate'

Dec 7, 2024

Narrow is the Gate

First let me clearly state that “The percentage of people saved” is a very minor point and should not cause any Christians to be in division. Satan loves to bring up a point with hopes to divide us. I am not saying it cannot or should not be discussed, just that it should not cause division among Christians. I have my opinion, but have no need to convince anyone that I am correct. My opinion is that more people will be saved than those that won’t.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that...

• Goodboy
• Replies: 9
• Forum: Bible Studies

• 

 

[TCC]

Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum explains in Footsteps of the Messiah (a wonderful book btw) that you are absolutely correct about the Nation against Nation Kingdom against Kingdom.

That is a Jewish Idiomatic expression meaning World War. In other words the times of the end would start at a time when the entire world was at war. WW1 which btw was how the Balfour Declaration came about - it granted the Jews their homeland which was then agreed on in the San Remo Conference both as a result of WW1.

When Jesus telescopes time it can be confusing. He goes from wars and rumours of wars- the time of "not yet" and then the Jewish idiom for world war. That is the beginnings of the birth pains.

It's not the Fig Tree (that would blossom at the end of WW2), but it is the time of the beginnings of the birth pains. Luke 21:29 says something a bit different than Matthew. here it is: 29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

Matthew only mentions the fig tree (Israel- one of her national symbols) but Luke includes AND ALL THE TREES. If a tree is a nation, and the fig is Israel who might "all the trees" be that COME BACK TO LIFE around that time?

The clue (I think) is the Ottoman Empire. When it dissolved in WW1 (birth pains began) there were some nations that roared back to life around the time of Israel. Jordan, Syria, Lebanon as well as Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. If Israel's "tree" began to put forth leaves, AND ALL THE TREES (her ancient enemies) also put forth THEIR LEAVES.

Suddenly God's nation springs back to life in 1948 and these other nations along with Egypt are ready to attack.

I would date the Fig Tree from the rebirth of Israel in 1948 but the time of the Birth Pains from the start of WW1 when the Ottoman Empire begins to dissolve.




For the most part I think the Olivet discourse whether Matthew, Mark or Luke - are MOSTLY for the Jews, for believing Israel within the Tribulation.


BUT NOT all.

just like the above.

Jesus gives a broad overview of time from the Cross (He mentions it in Luke 17) to the end of the Tribulation so it covers a lot of territory and goes back and forth a lot.

It's just that I think little tiny parts of it may have a slightly different time frame. They aren't all the same talks btw. They occur at different places and times if you look carefully. And they shoot back and forth in time. Luke 21 goes from talking about the Jewish diaspora in 70AD and shoots ahead in time to the end of the times of the Gentiles at the end of the Tribulation.


Look at the differences.

Chronologically it's like this:
Luke 17- the Pharisees ask about the coming Kingdom. He answers, then starts to talk privately with his disciples later about the Days of the Son of Man. He explains it would be like Noah and Lot's day. He gives some of the same signs that seem to relate to the church age ahead for the disciples and mentions the end of the Tribulation when He appears for all to see, then jumps back to the cross. He gives the illustration of Noah and Lot, then V 30-37 which are difficult whether you place them in the Tribulation or at the Rapture. This is the only one of the similar accounts that He discusses the Cross.

Then comes Luke 21 which starts out in the Temple with the widows Mite and goes on to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD but at v 24 the scene shifts forward in time. Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles, where the Gentiles tread the Temple underfoot don't finish till the end of the Trib when Jesus comes back and reclaims the world but especially the Temple Mount and Jerusalem as HIS. Not to be confused with the fulness of the Gentiles that Paul speaks of in Romans 11:25

Luke 21:29 has that interesting inclusion of "and all the trees" alongside the fig tree. Luke often includes bits that are of interest to the Gentiles, he isn't speaking as directly to the Jews as Matthew does.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are almost identical. Mark leaves out Noah, but Matthew includes it. And both Matthew and Mark are the actual Olivet discourse. It occurs in time just after the discussion in the Temple from Luke 21. But they've walked away now, and Jesus continues to teach.

Matthew 24

Matt 24: 4-8 where He discusses the stuff before the Tribulation. From 9-31 are definitely Tribulation.

32-35 are the fig tree but unlike the Luke 21:29 this time it's just Israel, the Fig Tree. So does that mean that Luke includes the other trees because he includes the Gentiles a lot, while Matthew is directed at the Jews? I don't know but it's possible.

36-51 are another area of debate. The use of the Father knowing the time in v 36 seems to suggest this is the Rapture due to the bridal picture. Only my Father knows for sure was the standard response when people asked the Jewish bridegroom when his wedding would take place back in Jesus time. This is immediately followed by the days of Noah. Again I think because the people in the Trib will KNOW when Jesus is coming- it can be calculated to the day once that covenant is signed, this is another indicator that the days of Noah are referring to the time Jesus comes for His bride.

40-41 1 taken, 1 left could be either way. This I think is referring to the end of the Trib, but again, not sure. I like to keep an open mind on these difficult passages. There are good arguments on both sides.

vs 42-44 is the Thief in the Night passage. Seems to dovetail best with Paul's 1 Thess 5:1-4 again using that thief in the night. We are not of the night as Paul says so we are not surprised, but those of the night who aren't expecting the thief will be shocked. Sudden destruction awaits them, not us.

Mark 13 is a shorter recap of Matthew's version of the Olivet. Both Matthew and Mark are taught from the Mt of Olives but pick up the account as Jesus and the disciples are walking away from the Temple towards the Mt of Olives.


Getting down to Rev 18, the destruction of Babylon, towards the end, yes this is definitely a weak spot in my argument that the Tribulation won't be a time of widespread economic normalcy.

But I'd toss in the beginning of the Seals, Harm not the oil and the wine- the luxury goods are not to be harmed even when there is mass starvation setting in. Which suggests that for the world leader class, riches and wealth continue while the poor are oppressed to the point of death. And that would fit with Babylon and her trade in slaves and the emphasis at the first part of Rev 18 on luxury goods.

However you are quite right about the end of Rev 18 which talks of the voice of the bridegroom not being found in her. That is a very strong argument against my position.

My counter point to that would be that Babylon falls towards the end, but before the armies are massing around Jerusalem, and Armageddon. The believing remnant are hidden at Petra (Bosrah) or around the world in various places that the Lord will use to preserve the remnants of the Gentile nations to repopulate the Millennial kingdom.

But I'm not so set on it that I couldn't be persuaded that the Noah and Lot examples are about the Tribulation period.

Thanks Margery. I appreciate your point about all the trees. I had thought what that meant is that nations at that time, in general, would become clearly what ever they could be. Like China with AI tracking and control, and Saudi Arabia with its elaborate theme parks, cities, and enginuity (being the place housing Mecca), and Europe with its hate speech laws, and America with it billionaie playboy president, and like that. Like all the nations of end times will become apparent in what they were about. But, I kind I like your connecting it to Israel enemies. I think that is likely a lot closer. My view there had been a bit more poetic perhaps than exegetically substantive.

All The Trees Exegetically -- Perhaps
But then I began to see something else about the trees...which I think you will like this view because it cuddles right up to yours. But from an entirely different perspective. And that is...what if "all the trees" means Ez 38? This is a prophetic passage that if for our day would be very trackable. Because it is the prophecy with most detail in all the bible (on any one subject centralized in 2 chapters Ez 38-39). Its not a prophecy tidbit. Its a prophecy theme park. And in it...drum roll please...are other nations. So I believe it may be like saying: All the trees = the blossoming of Ez 38. Something you can track very closely. But only if we believe the self evident reveal of Ez 38 & 39 for our age. A lot of Christains won't even entertain that.

I came to realize this view during the Uturn season on JDF. Uturn was most active for about a year and left the forum about 6 to 8 months before it closed. But during that time, I discovered that Uturn was able to track 10k data points watching pieces slowly fall into place. It amazed me that we could do that. Because typically if you go oncto YouTube you get the sense that Ez 38 can occur any day. Not from what I saw. We really need Saudi normalization with some other nations to follow for Ez 38 to be the fully blossoming tree it will become. I don't know of any scholar (I am sure they are out there somewhere) that tracks progress on Ez 38 meticulously. But it seems what the watcher world seems to settle for is: We know its soon. We don't need to watch it closley evolve. Lets look at other things. Play them up. And then compare.

But I don't think that really understands the "all the trees." Because if God gives us Ez 38 and 39 raw like that, by which a layperson can see all the geopolitics involved (who is pro or against Israel...what nations are involved, what nations not...how the alignment should look etc). And that it is a rather nuanced and meticulous endeavor, it would seem evangelicalism trends toward the sensational (not having as much patience, diligience and warewithal to painstakenly see just what % level Ez 38 might be at for example today December 7, 2024--because it takes an interest in geopolitical manueverings--which for some could just be boring). But, it would seem to me that Ez 38 is likely more accurate in being a belwhether indicator of our day and time than how we look at technology, finance, government corruption, deception, and of course Trump etc. We tend to like the Revelation Blueprint, and then walk all that back to today and connect the dots. To me this has "some" merit. But it is, to me, like barrowing contemporary ideology of the 21st first century and overlaying it onto the 1500s. I used that absurd contrast for poetic exageration effect. Rather than what is actually provided for us in our context, Ez 38. Like a fine swiss Watch, I believe those 2 chapters have far more "relational eschatological accuracy" for our age then walking back the 70th week into the age of grace. Of course there will be cross over. But its more exotic to walk the tribulation back into our day than whatch meticolous geopolitical alignment with Ez 38. And so the "walk back" wins. Because its a shinier object. Which personally I think by doing will have the potential to reinterpret key areas of eschatology all along the way.

For example, the Abraham Accords look to be much more likely a part of Ez 38 than the covenant with the many. It may be the covenant with the many at some point. But lets skip over Israel's peace and security and jump to the antichrist. Back walk it into 2024. And come up with our own forced template of what everything means in light of forming our own tree. That, I guess, is the sort of trouble we can exchatologically get distracted by. Which ironically makes in some ways perhaps our views on eschatology a distraction itself, unfortuantely. Or at least the potential is there. But I didn't say all this to just vent. lol. Just that, yeah, I think your intuition on the "enemies of Israel" as "all the trees" is leaning in the right direction. Amen.

. . . . .

By the way, thanks for the Arnold reference to world war association. Outside of that mention though, I don't think we hear all that much about that sort of thing. Have you?

Luke 17:30-37
As for Luke 17:30-37, the Left Behind series would treat that as the rapture. I think it fits perfectly in the tribulation though. Because I would see that event to be the Rev 14 angel reapers. Along those same lines, I had looked at the Jewish Feast Days in the Fall to be fulfilled at Christ's return. And I do believe that is accurate. But having thought previously that the Feast of Trumpets might be the rapture, I believe differently now. From best I can tell, this is the order and meaning of those last Fall feast days:

• Feast of Trumpets -- The Sign of the Son of Man (mourning when seen...10 days before the day of atonement)
• Day of Atonement -- Rev 14 reapers for those who did not repent within 10 days after seeing the Sign of the Son of Man
• Tabernacles -- The thousand-year reign

So I would see the reapers have a very powerful role at the tail end of the tribulation.

. . . . .

Buying and Selling Motif in the Tribulaiton Era
As for the buying and selling at the end of the tribulation era, I appreciate you recognizing where you argument would have its potential weak points. In concert with that there is this one other area too I think that can be helpful in getting as much a sense as we can of what that might be like. In Daniel 2:42 it details the clay feet with iron to represent parts of that kingdom to be strong and parts week. We have tended to make this all about cyborging creation. But even if true (which I don't really subscribe to as much), the word of God defines that "the worst" it will get under the most powerful antichrist control of the world is clay feet mixed with iron. Even when the AC has ultimate control of the earth, it still has plenty of weak spots. That is not as exotic as a one world government that mind controls everything all over the place strongly. Our era is really into the science fiction of that (underscoring the "fiction" part of it). Some even extend the AC rule to 7 years instead of 3.5 so we can really juice that thing up. This is one huge exegetical issue with making the 1st seal AC. He does not rule the world for the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. It would appear that this clay/iron kingdom mix evolves in the scope of the tribulation. Not before. Even if not correct on my part, what is certain is the AC does not rule fro 7 years. And when it does it is weak all over the place on earth. Not a very sexy novel to sell. But that is the God's honest truth. So I just bring this up because we have a lot of sensational themes today that can tend to color biblical interpretation. So I guess this is my bid for sensationalizing the unsensational...lol...as it were. I don't mean it won't be horrific or massively controlling for 3.5 years. Or maybe even beyond 3.5 years as the harlot rides the beast seemingly as part of perhaps this feet governance. But where the harlot ridding and the beast controlling line divides (outside of the midpoint where the beast demands worship), it is timing we likely don't have the tools today to exactly know to the degree it will go down exactly and when.

In any event dear sister, thank you so much for your thoughtful heart. And being a beautiful member of the body refining and sharpening one another. Amen. Blessings.

 

[Margery]

Thanks Margery. I appreciate your point about all the trees. I had thought what that meant is that nations at that time, in general, would become clearly what ever they could be. Like China with AI tracking and control, and Saudi Arabia with its elaborate theme parks, cities, and enginuity (being the place housing Mecca), and Europe with its hate speech laws, and America with it billionaie playboy president, and like that. Like all the nations of end times will become apparent in what they were about. But, I kind I like your connecting it to Israel enemies. I think that is likely a lot closer. My view there had been a bit more poetic perhaps than exegetically substantive.

All The Trees Exegetically -- Perhaps
But then I began to see something else about the trees...which I think you will like this view because it cuddles right up to yours. But from an entirely different perspective. And that is...what if "all the trees" means Ez 38? This is a prophetic passage that if for our day would be very trackable. Because it is the prophecy with most detail in all the bible (on any one subject centralized in 2 chapters Ez 38-39). Its not a prophecy tidbit. Its a prophecy theme park. And in it...drum roll please...are other nations. So I believe it may be like saying: All the trees = the blossoming of Ez 38. Something you can track very closely. But only if we believe the self evident reveal of Ez 38 & 39 for our age. A lot of Christains won't even entertain that.

I came to realize this view during the Uturn season on JDF. Uturn was most active for about a year and left the forum about 6 to 8 months before it closed. But during that time, I discovered that Uturn was able to track 10k data points watching pieces slowly fall into place. It amazed me that we could do that. Because typically if you go oncto YouTube you get the sense that Ez 38 can occur any day. Not from what I saw. We really need Saudi normalization with some other nations to follow for Ez 38 to be the fully blossoming tree it will become. I don't know of any scholar (I am sure they are out there somewhere) that tracks progress on Ez 38 meticulously. But it seems what the watcher world seems to settle for is: We know its soon. We don't need to watch it closley evolve. Lets look at other things. Play them up. And then compare.

But I don't think that really understands the "all the trees." Because if God gives us Ez 38 and 39 raw like that, by which a layperson can see all the geopolitics involved (who is pro or against Israel...what nations are involved, what nations not...how the alignment should look etc). And that it is a rather nuanced and meticulous endeavor, it would seem evangelicalism trends toward the sensational (not having as much patience, diligience and warewithal to painstakenly see just what % level Ez 38 might be at for example today December 7, 2024--because it takes an interest in geopolitical manueverings--which for some could just be boring). But, it would seem to me that Ez 38 is likely more accurate in being a belwhether indicator of our day and time than how we look at technology, finance, government corruption, deception, and of course Trump etc. We tend to like the Revelation Blueprint, and then walk all that back to today and connect the dots. To me this has "some" merit. But it is, to me, like barrowing contemporary ideology of the 21st first century and overlaying it onto the 1500s. I used that absurd contrast for poetic exageration effect. Rather than what is actually provided for us in our context, Ez 38. Like a fine swiss Watch, I believe those 2 chapters have far more "relational eschatological accuracy" for our age then walking back the 70th week into the age of grace. Of course there will be cross over. But its more exotic to walk the tribulation back into our day than whatch meticolous geopolitical alignment with Ez 38. And so the "walk back" wins. Because its a shinier object. Which personally I think by doing will have the potential to reinterpret key areas of eschatology all along the way.

For example, the Abraham Accords look to be much more likely a part of Ez 38 than the covenant with the many. It may be the covenant with the many at some point. But lets skip over Israel's peace and security and jump to the antichrist. Back walk it into 2024. And come up with our own forced template of what everything means in light of forming our own tree. That, I guess, is the sort of trouble we can exchatologically get distracted by. Which ironically makes in some ways perhaps our views on eschatology a distraction itself, unfortuantely. Or at least the potential is there. But I didn't say all this to just vent. lol. Just that, yeah, I think your intuition on the "enemies of Israel" as "all the trees" is leaning in the right direction. Amen.

. . . . .

By the way, thanks for the Arnold reference to world war association. Outside of that mention though, I don't think we hear all that much about that sort of thing. Have you?

Luke 17:30-37
As for Luke 17:30-37, the Left Behind series would treat that as the rapture. I think it fits perfectly in the tribulation though. Because I would see that event to be the Rev 14 angel reapers. Along those same lines, I had looked at the Jewish Feast Days in the Fall to be fulfilled at Christ's return. And I do believe that is accurate. But having thought previously that the Feast of Trumpets might be the rapture, I believe differently now. From best I can tell, this is the order and meaning of those last Fall feast days:

• Feast of Trumpets -- The Sign of the Son of Man (mourning when seen...10 days before the day of atonement)
• Day of Atonement -- Rev 14 reapers for those who did not repent within 10 days after seeing the Sign of the Son of Man
• Tabernacles -- The thousand-year reign

So I would see the reapers have a very powerful role at the tail end of the tribulation.

. . . . .

Buying and Selling Motif in the Tribulaiton Era
As for the buying and selling at the end of the tribulation era, I appreciate you recognizing where you argument would have its potential weak points. In concert with that there is this one other area too I think that can be helpful in getting as much a sense as we can of what that might be like. In Daniel 2:42 it details the clay feet with iron to represent parts of that kingdom to be strong and parts week. We have tended to make this all about cyborging creation. But even if true (which I don't really subscribe to as much), the word of God defines that "the worst" it will get under the most powerful antichrist control of the world is clay feet mixed with iron. Even when the AC has ultimate control of the earth, it still has plenty of weak spots. That is not as exotic as a one world government that mind controls everything all over the place strongly. Our era is really into the science fiction of that (underscoring the "fiction" part of it). Some even extend the AC rule to 7 years instead of 3.5 so we can really juice that thing up. This is one huge exegetical issue with making the 1st seal AC. He does not rule the world for the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. It would appear that this clay/iron kingdom mix evolves in the scope of the tribulation. Not before. Even if not correct on my part, what is certain is the AC does not rule fro 7 years. And when it does it is weak all over the place on earth. Not a very sexy novel to sell. But that is the God's honest truth. So I just bring this up because we have a lot of sensational themes today that can tend to color biblical interpretation. So I guess this is my bid for sensationalizing the unsensational...lol...as it were. I don't mean it won't be horrific or massively controlling for 3.5 years. Or maybe even beyond 3.5 years as the harlot rides the beast seemingly as part of perhaps this feet governance. But where the harlot ridding and the beast controlling line divides (outside of the midpoint where the beast demands worship), it is timing we likely don't have the tools today to exactly know to the degree it will go down exactly and when.

In any event dear sister, thank you so much for your thoughtful heart. And being a beautiful member of the body refining and sharpening one another. Amen. Blessings.

I disagree about the AC length of rule- as that looks clear as a 7 year rule broken in 2 parts. The time frame is mentioned over and over.

The covenant with death and hades as Isaiah termed it, the prince to come as Daniel describes it has a start point that the entire Tribulation counts down from.

There is a significance in the midpoint, as the Tribulation has 2 halves but the start is marked by the appearance of the AC which Paul makes clear in 2 Thess 2 which is all about the revealing of the AC.

The sequence of the Seals backs up this chronology - again this first rider rides in conquering and to conquer. He masquerades as a Messiah on a white horse, but ends up bringing death and destruction with him. Jesus opens that first Seal (and all the Seals), this is His wrath that allows this guy out to do damage.

Paul's description of the Rapture and the ensuing Tribulation has a sequence.

The Restrainer restrains until He is taken up (The Holy Spirit acting thru the church is the Restrainer) God's judgment (the other purpose of the Trib) cannot fall on the Church which is Christ's body here on earth. That judgment fell on Christ on the Cross and we are in Him and He in us so the Church is not subject to that type of judgment that falls on the earth dwellers, the left behind. Rev 6 is all the Seals, and the end of that chapter says the world knows the Wrath of the Lamb has come. So those who say the Wrath is after the first half ignore Rev 6 as do those who say the first half is the wrath of man.

The sequence using Isaiah, Daniel, Thessalonians, and Revelation has events building on one another.

First is the talk of peace and safety contrasted with sudden destruction. In between those contrasts is the Rapture of the Church. This happens at a point that God the Father sets and it seems to be tied to a number only He knows that Paul mentions in Romans 11. It comes at the end of Rev 3 and before we see the church before the Throne of God starting in Ch 4 but identified by the song they sing in Ch 5:9-10 where they sing you have redeemed US by your blood. We are also the only group besides the Lord Jesus who is allowed to "reign as kings and priests". This is a church age privilege.

Sudden destruction after the Rapture is allowed to fall on a now fallen world that for that moment doesn't have believers in it. Those who believe after the Rapture must keep their salvation, the age of grace is over. Those saints go thru the wrath.

In the midst of the chaos the AC arises - the time frame is unknown- several hours to several weeks or months elapse but however short this period is, it is punctuated by the signing of the covenant with death and hades.

That passage is from Isaiah, (don't have time to look it up tonight) but it's obvious from the description in Isaiah that the govt of Israel (the many) is worried about this scourge that is blasting his way thru other nations. They make their agreement with him (death and hell) to avoid the same trouble they see happening around them.

This suggests that the AC has a period to arise after the Restrainer lets him. time frame unknown. I've made the point before that you don't make a covenant with a nobody, you have to see value in it, which is exactly what Isaiah points out. Something bad is happening, this guy is a problem, and Israel tries to prevent trouble by making the covenant with him.

The covenant has some kind of guarantee of peace and safety for Israel. This is why it's not the Abraham Accords as those are merely an agreement to recognize Israel and do joint projects, allow tourism etc. Diplomacy and Trade. The Covenant has to establish Israel's right to the land, her right to exist and if the contest of Daniel is a suggestion, it also includes rights to build the Temple.

Some look at the covenant with the AC as the Ezek 38 precondition of living in peace and security, and it may be so--but I prefer to look at the onset of Ezek 38 right after the Rapture in that period of time when almost no Jew or Gentile knows Christ yet, because those believers are gone. Several times God makes a point of saying He is making Himself known thru Ezek 38 which suggests that nobody, neither jew or gentile knows Him yet.

The purpose of Ezek 38 is the beginning of God making Himself known to an unbelieving world. Especially the Jews. That doesn't fit in my view anyway with the AC taking credit for the whole Ez 38 slaughter on behalf of God's chosen people Israel.

I think the AC rises in the aftermath of the destruction from God on Russia, Iran, Turkey and allies.

Be that as it may, Ezek 38 is fascinating, and I've spent years puzzling over it.

I won't be able to get back to you on this tomorrow- and I'll see how I feel. When I'm tired, I'm foggy and it's hard to write or even to read stuff clearly. Till then- it's fun to go over these things! God bless you!

 

[TCC]

Thanks Margery. Yes it is. And thanks. I've heard before this view of making a death with hades. I believe this is Isaiah 28:15. I can see why the statement made sound like the AC. But as far as i am aware, Isaiah 28 was an historical warning that came to pass via Assyria and or Egypt, Are you aware of commentaries that make that Isaiah connection to the AC? I don't see it in the chapter though. There is a prophecy in that chapter regarding Messiah coming. But i don't see a reference to AC. It would seem from commentators that it is hyperbolic language describing the way Israel acted. Like "as if" Israel said that. Like in the way they acted more than the focus on the one they covenant with.

Isaiah 28:15 Commentaries: Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we have made a pact. The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by, For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourse

I hear what you are saying about 2 Thes 2 and the AC reveal. I have had a few positions on that area of scripture. But today there seems to be premium of focusing on the time the AC makes a covenant with the many as the "reveal." The reason i don't hold that as much these days is because revealed to who? The angels? To me the disclosure flows into his making himself to be God. I know its worded in such a way that it could sound like the man of lawlessness's first appearance. As i think about it i am not even sure if the two witnesses front off the AC. Which is another factor though. I would see the 2 witnesses in the first half. If true, it would be difficult for a full reign of AC to function i would think with the 2 witness traveling the world. If they do. I think the AC will have power. It would seem nearing the midpoint they say, "Who can go up against the beast?" But strategically getting stronger in my understanding would not necessarily mean world ruler though.

. . . .

This is just additional adage to help me hopefully seem less soupy headed from the above. The church thought the 1st seal was a good judgement for 1800 years. You will not find AC as the 1st seal prior to 1800. Check. This in and of itself does not mean its not AC. But its something. You will not find a white horse anywhere in any place in the bible (but this one we are discussing--which is an allusion) as deception. But you do find one in Zechariah implying triumph for Israel or resembling Cyrus. You won't find any white horse in any culture any time in history that implies false. The exegesis on seal one as AC is this: Well it can't be Christ so lets make it deceptive. That is pretty much it. And that is not exegesis.

Like i said, your point about a covenant with the many dear sister totally has merit. But outside of that one consideration, there is an army of alternative push back data that suggests its a 20th/21st century darling. Arnold F. believes as you do. And i asked him personally for exegesis on that. He said, "It has to be a judgement." And on that i agree. I just think its the New World Order being judged. And that does not exactly fit the evangelical blueprint. I guess we are alive at a time where we can see if it swims or sinks. But what Rev 6:2 is, as antichrist it can't be exegeted that way. Or if it can, we haven't. And yet we, know it is.

Well thanks for engaging. Take your time. And reply where you might, amen. I'm not trying actually to convince here. Because i realize it is far afield. But i just wanted to demonstrate that its not just a fly-by-night idea. We are alive at a time to see if its real. And i don't mind being wrong. And because of Q and all that, maybe its better that i might be. Because i admit, it feels a little fruity holding it. lol. Blessings.

 

[mattfivefour]

I disagree about the AC length of rule- as that looks clear as a 7 year rule broken in 2 parts. The time frame is mentioned over and over.

The covenant with death and hades as Isaiah termed it, the prince to come as Daniel describes it has a start point that the entire Tribulation counts down from.

There is a significance in the midpoint, as the Tribulation has 2 halves but the start is marked by the appearance of the AC which Paul makes clear in 2 Thess 2 which is all about the revealing of the AC.

The sequence of the Seals backs up this chronology - again this first rider rides in conquering and to conquer. He masquerades as a Messiah on a white horse, but ends up bringing death and destruction with him. Jesus opens that first Seal (and all the Seals), this is His wrath that allows this guy out to do damage.

Paul's description of the Rapture and the ensuing Tribulation has a sequence.

The Restrainer restrains until He is taken up (The Holy Spirit acting thru the church is the Restrainer) God's judgment (the other purpose of the Trib) cannot fall on the Church which is Christ's body here on earth. That judgment fell on Christ on the Cross and we are in Him and He in us so the Church is not subject to that type of judgment that falls on the earth dwellers, the left behind. Rev 6 is all the Seals, and the end of that chapter says the world knows the Wrath of the Lamb has come. So those who say the Wrath is after the first half ignore Rev 6 as do those who say the first half is the wrath of man.

The sequence using Isaiah, Daniel, Thessalonians, and Revelation has events building on one another.

First is the talk of peace and safety contrasted with sudden destruction. In between those contrasts is the Rapture of the Church. This happens at a point that God the Father sets and it seems to be tied to a number only He knows that Paul mentions in Romans 11. It comes at the end of Rev 3 and before we see the church before the Throne of God starting in Ch 4 but identified by the song they sing in Ch 5:9-10 where they sing you have redeemed US by your blood. We are also the only group besides the Lord Jesus who is allowed to "reign as kings and priests". This is a church age privilege.

Sudden destruction after the Rapture is allowed to fall on a now fallen world that for that moment doesn't have believers in it. Those who believe after the Rapture must keep their salvation, the age of grace is over. Those saints go thru the wrath.

In the midst of the chaos the AC arises - the time frame is unknown- several hours to several weeks or months elapse but however short this period is, it is punctuated by the signing of the covenant with death and hades.

That passage is from Isaiah, (don't have time to look it up tonight) but it's obvious from the description in Isaiah that the govt of Israel (the many) is worried about this scourge that is blasting his way thru other nations. They make their agreement with him (death and hell) to avoid the same trouble they see happening around them.

This suggests that the AC has a period to arise after the Restrainer lets him. time frame unknown. I've made the point before that you don't make a covenant with a nobody, you have to see value in it, which is exactly what Isaiah points out. Something bad is happening, this guy is a problem, and Israel tries to prevent trouble by making the covenant with him.

The covenant has some kind of guarantee of peace and safety for Israel. This is why it's not the Abraham Accords as those are merely an agreement to recognize Israel and do joint projects, allow tourism etc. Diplomacy and Trade. The Covenant has to establish Israel's right to the land, her right to exist and if the contest of Daniel is a suggestion, it also includes rights to build the Temple.

Some look at the covenant with the AC as the Ezek 38 precondition of living in peace and security, and it may be so--but I prefer to look at the onset of Ezek 38 right after the Rapture in that period of time when almost no Jew or Gentile knows Christ yet, because those believers are gone. Several times God makes a point of saying He is making Himself known thru Ezek 38 which suggests that nobody, neither jew or gentile knows Him yet.

The purpose of Ezek 38 is the beginning of God making Himself known to an unbelieving world. Especially the Jews. That doesn't fit in my view anyway with the AC taking credit for the whole Ez 38 slaughter on behalf of God's chosen people Israel.

I think the AC rises in the aftermath of the destruction from God on Russia, Iran, Turkey and allies.

Be that as it may, Ezek 38 is fascinating, and I've spent years puzzling over it.

I won't be able to get back to you on this tomorrow- and I'll see how I feel. When I'm tired, I'm foggy and it's hard to write or even to read stuff clearly. Till then- it's fun to go over these things! God bless you!

Everything you have said up until the Ezekiel 38 section is exactly what I believe the Bible allows us to know. And I thank you have encapsulated it perfectly. Well done. Very useful for people new to the study event times.

But after that -- with the Ezekiel 38 stuff-- we're back into sheer speculation based on human thinking. Interesting, but nothing to hang one's hat on. And until events occur I do not think the Bible gives us enough to go on. So I'm back at Deuteronomy 29:29.

 

[Margery]

Everything you have said up until the Ezekiel 38 section is exactly what I believe the Bible allows us to know. And I thank you have encapsulated it perfectly. Well done. Very useful for people new to the study event times.

But after that -- with the Ezekiel 38 stuff-- we're back into sheer speculation based on human thinking. Interesting, but nothing to hang one's hat on. And until events occur I do not think the Bible gives us enough to go on. So I'm back at Deuteronomy 29:29.

Absolutely! I'm speculating on Ez 38, and as always I view things in a set of ranked probabilities or possibilities. It definitely doesn't give us enough to tell exactly how Ez 38 pans out. Which is why it's so fun to think about.

As for the other stuff, I go by the principle of what makes the most sense in context with the other related passages. And that has always made the most sense to me but I can understand how other points of view happen.

 

[TCC]

Just to clarify (as I am aware my perspectives would come with potential controversy to a degree), I do share in the view that the first half of the tribulation is not peaceful. And riddled with judgement. As I would understand the timing of judgement cycles reveals that both all the seal judgements and all to most of the trumpet judgements occur in the first half of the tribulation. Not everyone shares this chronoligical order. But I would see the second half of the tribulation as only or predominantly the bowl judgements. So yeah just wanted to clarify that even though I don't see a 7 year AC rule, that is not to say there is not massive judgement and calamity throughout the entire first half of the tribulation (including trumpet 5 which seems particularly alarming).

Other spots where I would see a bit different perspective I tend to have from conventional evangelical views is that although I do share in the view of a pretrib rapture (before the tribulation starts--amen), I would not see the removal of the church to be the restrainer. I'm not like 100% it could not be. For I understand how it makes a lot of biblical sense. Its just that there are quite a number of views regarding how to exegete the passage with the restrainer. And in observation of that, I tend to lean toward a removal point to be the ultimate reveal of the AC at the midpoint. I understand this is not popular or even semi-mainstream. But it would appear to me to match up the two witnesses removal to be the event that permits the AC to have full and unrestrained rule forward. So in that sense it would infer to me also how 2 Thes 2 is targeting the midpoint rather than the original covenant with the many the man of lawlessness makes. This perspective of mine has no differences with the church being removed before the tribulation. It just has a different weight upon the role of restraining the AC in favor of like a Matt 24 highlighting differences of what appears to be a major point of shift for that age, the abomination of desolation.

Although I would not go as far as to say the church experiences no seal judgement, I would pretty much limit it to one I would see as a transition point for the gentile heavy church age phase out, amidst of mirror display of temporal import (a taste of the thousand year reign) on behalf of Israel while the church is also present. But other than the radius of AC rule during the first half, the role of the restrainer, and the 1st seal role, I believe Margery, our views are very similar, amen. I appreciate your consideration that there might be other approaches within a potential scope of orthodoxy. Blessings.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

When Jesus says in Luke 21 v 36 to pray that your worthy to escape these things, is he more addressing the Jews so that they may escape when the Antichrist announces himself or is it a dual verse for believers to escape in the rapture also ?

32“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[TCC]

When Jesus says in Luke 21 v 36 to pray that your worthy to escape these things, is he more addressing the Jews so that they may escape when the Antichrist announces himself or is it a dual verse for believers to escape in the rapture also ?

32“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

Amen. Yes I agree. Brother it took me 25 years before I got Andy Woods clarifying that. I heard no one before then even come close to making that distinction. How did you come to understand that? Thanks

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Amen. Yes I agree. Brother it took me 25 years before I got Andy Woods clarifying that. I heard no one before then even come close to making that distinction. How did you come to understand that? Thanks

It was just a thought that kinda kept nagging me in my mind while a Tom hughes Damascus update came up and i decided to re-read it to see if my line of thought was correct

 

[TCC]

It was just a thought that kinda kept nagging me in my mind while a Tom hughes Damascus update came up and i decided to re-read it to see if my line of thought was correct

Wow. So Tom Hughes is aware of that nuance. I've really come to love that man. He like makes being a peacemaker look fun. What a ministry.

 

[TCC]

Something that just popped into mind regarding the Church being the restrainer. Even though i have different views on that, there is one massive potential that likely insists the church in some powerful way does have "at least" some restrainer function. As least even occurring to how i am looking at things (which is not so much the church as restrainer). But this one perspective that just came to mind hugely suggests a restrainer like function of the church. In the way i am thinking about it, this would not be so much in regards to straining the AC as much as what it might performatively imply.

I lean toward the view that the rapture is possibly lined up with the timing of Ez 38. In this perspective, the church raptures just before Ez 38. So like, lol, if that iis accurate, it would appear that Ez 38 is in part somewhat possibly a response to a world where the church is taken away from her. Like because the church is here, Israel is protected by age of grace principles. Like the church serving as a protection to Israel. And if the Ez 38 eve is a real timing, then the way that would look is Israeli collapse under this condition: once the church raptures. That actually carries pretty significant weight in my estimation. I believe the replacement of us is the 2 witnesses. Which in part does keep the AC at bay in ways.

So the two witnesses seem to carry with them a preservative effect functioning somewhat in place of the church. Only preserving the world from AC. If true, God is using the church in the age of grace to be a protection from His displeasure with Israel (in ultimate sense) in her partial hardening. Like God is honoring Israel (even in their unbelief) through the church. And therefore makes incredible sense that once the church is removed Israel would no longer be under that partial hardening protection by God indirectly. And therefor Ez 38.

Wow, in that sense the church has been a restrainer use toward Israel at least. God having been patient with Israel for 2,000 years. I know a lot of conjecture here, but if that is anywhere near a use of the church, one would not know a rapture day or hour, but the season. Not that we should look for exact dates or use something like this for date setting. But just maybe something like an Indiana Jones like key unlocking in some sense, a way possibly to receive hint. Like a mystery shrouded in Ez 38. With unveiling potential.

Well this is an interesting hypothesis. And of course mere conjecture. But intriguing nonetheless. And a condition of the church as restrainer on some significant and real level and way. Blessings.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Wow. So Tom Hughes is aware of that nuance. I've really come to love that man. He like makes being a peacemaker look fun. What a ministry.

He may, the video i was watching regarding Tom was tryna calm the hype down about the events in Damascus being the fulfilment of Isaiah17.

The thought randomly popped in my head why Jesus would tell christians to pray that your worthy to escape when his sacrifice is basically the only thing that makes us worthy(i hope im right) to escape and by belief im him is what gurantees that.

THat's what prompted me to look into it further i guess this morning and raise it here to see what others take on that is.

 

[TCC]

He may, the video i was watching regarding Tom was tryna calm the hype down about the events in Damascus being the fulfilment of Isaiah17.

The thought randomly popped in my head why Jesus would tell christians to pray that your worthy to escape when his sacrifice is basically the only thing that makes us worthy(i hope im right) to escape and by belief im him is what gurantees that.

THat's what prompted me to look into it further i guess this morning and raise it here to see what others take on that is.

I think it's great that we are looking at things with an open biblical mind. Like Isaiah 17. On that one I feel like it may be a future fulfillment. But I am ok too if it already was in totality, merely historic. Which i don't think so. But I don't have all that much riding on Isaiah 17, but I do have an openness to be watchful nonetheless. I don't feel like some on the watch that a destruction of Damascus is necessary for an Ez 38 determinant. I suppose it could be. But Ez 38 has a much clearer set of criteria. From what I understand, Ez 38 would not happen any day. I believe there are some pieces yet forming. I would see those as more telling of timing than Damacus destruction.

I didn't realize this was all that recent for you. Wow. Yeah good time to check into that. Amen. As for Syria, my understanding is it is one of those countries on the Rumsfeld regime change watch list. I try as best I can to view international shifts formostly yes through biblical senses. But also it would seem that the watcher concern of a one world government, to me, is not just from knowing the Bible, but in light of knowing how totalitarian globlist strategies have become so apparent. In that sense I don't really track globlist related events so much for seeing a one world governmetn as I would to get a sense of what nations are currently experiencing and how that might fit within a multi-tierd sociopolitical front:

• The nuanced strategies of globalism
• The genuine interests of generic nationalists (that are not Christian Nationalists)
• The merged compliance of The Military Industrail Complex and NATO
• And -- the seemingly teaming efforts of joint anti-globalist forces (the more complex it would seem of the batch)

From what I can tell, usually only 2 or 3 of the above are considered all that much in assessing the lay of the sociopolitical sphere in our day. And granted, this is complex even if only 3 of the 4. And rediculously complex if all 4. For sure. I just find those four filters seem to tell a pretty accurate story over the past decade. And a pretty reasonable belwhether for near term trajectories. So in that I guess I would primarily see Syria as another money laundering escapade of globalism (having wanted to oust Bashar years ago). Generally for what its worth from the peanut gallery, lol, I would say Syria is an allowance afforded for greater capture. Allowing globalism some sense of superiority would seem to be necessary to catch them completely off guard.

It would seem efforts to crowd out Trump relevance would be to increase middle east tension, incite Russia, encourage China to go after Tawian, and bring bird flu pandemic to emerge simultanously...as a way to welcome Trump into office. Keeping him ineffective and distracted is what the game theory potential resonates with me as. I guess we will see. But on that other note...

Here is where I think Andy does a pretty good job (more than I have seen elsewhere) in seeing Luke 21:36 in biblical context.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

If you had not seen this before. Thanks for bringing it up. To me, its one of those hidden gems. Blessing.s

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

I'm full of pondering thoughts today and been mostly reading r and r articles.

I know the rapture is imminent, but if Damascus is destroyed next year, i wonder if the rapture would be even closer to happening maybe after that event.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I'm full of pondering thoughts today and been mostly reading r and r articles.

I know the rapture is imminent, but if Damascus is destroyed next year, i wonder if the rapture would be even closer to happening maybe after that event.

The Rapture is closer every day than the day previous

Given my very minority view on Ezekiel 37-38-39, any time, now for either/both

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

The Rapture is closer every day than the day previous

Given my very minority view on Ezekiel 37-38-39, any time, now for either/both

Im well aware of your minority ez 38 view but i still love ya sis

 

[mattfivefour]

I know the rapture is imminent, but if Damascus is destroyed next year, i wonder if the rapture would be even closer to happening maybe after that event.

In my view, brother, (and I know it is not generally accepted) Damascus is not destroyed until near the end of the Great Tribulation as the world approaches the Battle of Armageddon. I believe that Ezekiel chapters 37 through 39 asking with Isaiah 17 fits that period and not any other prior to that.