I keep forgetting how to do quote by quote capture. But I think the nature of this discussion and the finer points insist i figure it out...lol. Thanks for reading all that Margery (and all who did). I'd like to apologize too for calling DEI as DEA...lol. I corrected that in the last post but the first one's date to edit expired already. Apologies if that made it perhaps even murkier than sometimes my ideas can organically be outside the box making them somewhat murky already.
Why the shift? Because it works. The shift to the left worked too for it's time and season. The current shift to the right is taking advantage of the anger towards open borders and other craziness. I don't think the left could move as quickly towards technocracy for example but the swing to the right allows a lot of things that masquerade as right wing such as govt efficiency to be put in place without much delay.
What I meant by "Why the Shift" was more along the lines of "the ghost in the machine" species (why are things going right leaning now) more than why the globalists shift to the right. This may be something globalists get refined in. But I think in general, an intro to that could be seen in Carney at WEF conference. The way he painted things was not exactly a shift to the right. Moreover, it was a rearranging of the face of conservativism to go after to compete it out of existence.
I understand what you are saying Margery though. I understand it is smart for globalism to use the right's fascination and speed to set things up with technocracy (and AI). I don't disagree here. You make a good and valid point that to the degree globalism can infiltrate that and shift/guide its rudder in their directions would be a master class plan thought line of theirs.
I believe though it is likely here at this point we will be focused on two very different themes. For it would seem a general approach your take (which is actually in the majority evangelical thought from what i can tell--so you are in good company if and when you do) is to understand world economical and sociopolitical shifts through the eyes of globalist intent. Which is kind of the exact opposite of what I am hopeful here in expressing. i believe this is "my bad," because my perspective are often certainly the outlier here. Your tracking i believe is exactly where it likely should be, as this is kind of what seems to be groundswell interests in evangelical theory making sense of chaos...lol. Totally understandable.
In my reply to Pastor Adrian,
@mattfivefour I mentioned I would explain something i meant in my reply to you. In what we are discussing here there are certainly "layers." For me, the choice meat of layers would be in what i guess i would call organic sociology. Whereas, at least in the sense of what we are speaking about here, it would seem the layer of choice for you might be more the co-mergence of the right by globalism. Not that it had not been influencing the right already. But it would seem from our POV's and vantage points, our tracking might be a bit different in scope.
Why the shift? Because it works. The shift to the left worked too for it's time and season. The current shift to the right is taking advantage of the anger towards open borders and other craziness. I don't think the left could move as quickly towards technocracy for example but the swing to the right allows a lot of things that masquerade as right wing such as govt efficiency to be put in place without much delay.
Most of the right wing doesn't see the globalist ties within the Right, they only see evil on the Left. And as the shift to the right happens (in response to idiocy and evil on the Left) the enemy doesn't miss a beat.
I agree. But to tie this with the previous point, the fork of preferential POVs here I would not merely see as matters of preference (although there certainly could be an argument for that...and even where there is not one, there would still be benefit to the body of Christ to track globalist manhandling on the right, amen). I believe at this juncture though the fork path with a greater value (in my estimation) is the "wave" of the right as defeating globalism. That is a hard pill to swallow i think. Even in my just stating it here, lol, it feels fake...lol. Like to me it feels like: "Come on Teren, we all know that globalism will be the neo right guiding us to Luciferian worship." Not that you are saying that at all dear sister (or even if you were that would be off the beaten path). It is just that is where my studies in 2017 led me. To that same Luciferian Light theory. And that is kind of where the bulk of evangelicals who have interest with end times would be. There is a fascination with how the hidden agendas manipulate the world. Like Billy Crone appearing on OAN. I like Billy and love OAN. But together they are a very different outlook than mine. Although i am at least glad a pastor with that much "in your face-ness" can come on such a large network like OAN and speak free....amen. Then there is also like Tom Hughes who kind of has been also leaning in that direction. Not so much Jan Markel. But I would see very differently than Jan too in general (although i like quite a bit of her views). I will use her as a clarifying element in a moment.
But first, I not only admit i am totally fringe...lol....but even feel to a degree embarrassed to present like that. It just feels cheesy and somewhat pollyannish or naive...and maybe even a bit myopic (which may not be the first thing that comes to mind when reading things i say...but to me it still feels a bit like that in my own little world i am projecting on all ya'll). lol. Sorry for that. If its any concession, i have to live with it...lol. But it is for that previously mentioned fork path difference (the right conquers globalism--granted...only a premise at this point) that "would" be the likely most helpful over-arching perspective to track by, in my estimation.
For example, Pastor Adrian in his reply here noted that America could be used of God to definitely be a part of literal prophecy unfolding. And it could too be that which the Lord uses to strengthen Israel prophetically in our day. Amen. So lets say the second one happens. Is it globalism agenda to prop up Israel? Playing both sides against the middle is a exercised strategic approach to dominate. But there is still something to Jesus saying that a house divided against itself shall not stand. I believe our era might tend to rewrite that like: We have come of age like a fine aging wine. We can divide and conquer. For we know how to be a house looking like it is divided against itself for our advantage...muhahaha."
Yes, this science of political strategy works. But I believe it can tend to put us into an eschatological bind potentially. Its premise or substance (in how i would be looking at things) is the same reason i veered away from this perspective in 2018. Back then the trend was to see (on some developing fronts) Albert Pike had a dream of 3 world wars. And it is demonstrated how society would be manipulated and the world would come to a place where tyrants are our own. Where tyrants are within and without and there is no way out.
Pike Presumed Statement Overview
The idea back then was to overlay this theory onto Revelation. And demonstrate how general revelation (like Pike's assumed dream and thoughts) would correspond with how God might likely use the mason and other players into the one world government that would bring on the tribulation. I ended up doing several hours of research on this. And the dream and letter are not authenticated documents. We just kind of ran with something. The research there i did was much deeper than this article. But this article covers several core elements of the issue.
Trending News: Explore the controversial claims surrounding Albert Pike's alleged letter predicting three world wars, including details on Hitler, Israel, and potential global conflicts.
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More Detailed Background
This was my line of thinking after the Gotthard Tunnel celebration aired. And it seemed (like Olympic performances & often Superbowl half time events depictions) the formation of where things were headed via the UN, WEF, and this blend of Trump's America would take common historical governance to a new level. That conservatism would be the NEW NWO. Affirming kind of, Pike's dream. that the right would just produce a right wing tyrant and cause dissolution all over the place...having seemingly nowhere to turn. So yeah, after that research i found that there was no standing concerning Pike. That is not to say Masons don't have plans. Or globalists don't have plans. It is just that I saw that having too much of an interest in seeing how evil brings us to the tribulation was to a degree in large part, hyped. Yet we know something of that nature happens "in" the tribulation. And "might" leading up to it. But I reckon my concern is that we mighted have swapped Pike's non-existent dream with globalists. And make them the grand wizard of our age that brings us into the tribulation. And to be fair, of course, there might be truth to a NWO bringing on the tribulation. I have absolutely no concerns that there might be something like that...for i came out of those vary concerns to finally read the book of Revelation after 25 years of never touching that book really.
So yes, evil "may" bring us to the tribulation. It may well playout that way. But back in those days of my coming to finally read the book of Revelation, a new and strange idea occurred to me: Is it possible that the 70th week is something God might want His stamp on? From what i could tell, believers in good and well-meant faith research would often come to the place of seeing how the tribulation was a climax of evil world control. The global reset. And now, there are views of the right through a Trump America to also do their version of a global reset. I suppose that could happen. But from what i can tell, its not like watchers at large have any other idea than that. The age of grace ends with some form of evil bringing us into the tribulation. And even though i agree there will certainly be overlap, the 70th week may not belong to globalism. And if it does not, it would be for a very powerful reason possibly: God's prerogative to claim His 70th week with Israel...more than let's say for example it being a product of the 10 kings without a nation.
On that note, it brings me to Jan Markel and her concern with The Board of Peace. Amen, and that she has concern. There is a lot of strange cartoons going on in that whole board of peace thing. And Jan makes a good point in that the 10 kings who don't have a kingdom may be among those on that board. Amen. It may be. But that perspective presumes God might have no purogative in demonstrating the tribulation is His 70th week.
I am not the biggest fan of Presuppositional Apologetics. Not because I don't believe Christianity as true is not the right starting place. In some cases i think that is honorable of course. But pound for pound it can train churches to exercise circular reasoning as viable.
Joseph Partain taught at Covenant College from 2002-2008 and is now working as an adjunct for the philosophy department at Belmont University in Nashville, TN. He recently wrote an article, “…
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So I realize for me to have my take for example: "God's prerogative might be that His power introduces the tribulation....and not a band of bad faith actors bringing on a reigning age of Satan." I realize it takes "presupposition" too to think this way. I guess my question would be though dear sister: Have you (or we) ever heard this view, ever? God making His 70th week mark as a way shower of His ownership and intent of the tribulation age (His 70th week for Israel)? Is it potentially anathema that God might have a purgative beyond evil taking us into the tribulation? Of course I am asking this in gest. But in asking this, it almost feels like i am asking a question like I'm from another planet...lol. We know the answer is "Of course He does." But I would suggest we don't see perhaps any reason why things would not go according to how we are looking at end times. I do. And one of them would be that even though globalism will want to pit two sides against one another, perhaps there is a path where they can't. And maybe even genuinely and literally overthrown. Overthrowing globalism likely seems too far outside of reality to give any credible thought to. And i realize it has not even 1 camp in eschatology (that I know of). But in case there is a purogative where God might want the world to see the story of globalism collapse in relation to potential sociopolitical indicators hinting at least the possibility of this kind of thing occurring, this might be a time to consider such a potential wager is the point hopefully being made here.
I agree that the enemy does not miss a beat shifting from left to right. But I guess my stress point is: Is there a real and living model where what the enemy is doing pales in comparison to what God is doing (and not just rhetorically--but genuinely). Like what if the enemy is working on the beast system formation through the right. And in the tribulation down the road those shifts will come to most evil fruition. But for the age of grace, I just think that if God uses that sort of thing now to shift the world into a healthier economic eco system outside the central bank because He would want the world to get a pre-taste of thousand year reign apocalyptic power (especially as a wink wink to Israel who will be reigning with Him), that would be a much bigger newspaper headline than "Earthlings Yet Get Suckered Again by the Illusionary Power of False Luciferian Light Pretending to Help the World Out of a Central Banking System." Of those two contrasting ways of looking at what is going on today, the one that would have a "temporal" focus or "earthly" focus (if there might be any ounce of % to what i am suggesting have merit) would be the ideas related to the tracking of what the devil, the globalists, and the political trends are doing as they pertain to bringing potential evil in this world to tribulation climax. If there is an ounce of % of potentially accuracy to what i am saying, it might be less earthy and less temporal to consider what our age would look like if the focus on God's heart might be temporary good for the world as a taste of what is waiting for us on the other side of the tribulation should we be led to the wisdom of considering such riches for us at stake--that would be the lesser earthy take likely. What i am not saying is that view i just articulated is true. Or must be true. I believe it is or potentially is. But at the moment, it can mean not a whole lot more than being a theory waiting in hope. And in my waiting in hope, I don't wish to overlay hopes onto the views of other in what i see. I try to make everything that is a potential for my view go to boot camp first. Do 10,000 push ups and then its probably more safe to talk to me. What i don't do is just consider any hope means my view is likely accurate. For that is an extremely slow motion trainwreck lol. But instead, I do try to hold hope in my views feet to the fire. Adversely, where is the holders of the view that the beast system leads us into the tribulation doing that same sort of thing though? Outside of some encouraging conversations on our awesome forum family conversations (where we have to a degree consideration, amen) there is very little if any feet holding to fire in the paradigm of "the beast system brings on the tribulation." My view might at times meet as one who got a little drunk off the NAR cool aide...lol. Which is a way to see it to an extent, ok i guess. But it does suggest just how foreign it might be to consider something so beautiful "because" of that nature and species of bias that exists in our current social moment context. And noticing that, to me, actually can become a "tell" of sorts.
I realize it is a pretty radical different view like to believe that instead of looking at symptoms leading to the tribulation we could look for symptoms of the 1,000 year reign. On some levels it might look actually insane. It might even seem like a contrived ploy to inch pretrib believers toward maybe even thinking the next thing to happen is the 1,000 year reign and not the tribulation. I forgot the term for that but like some in the reformed camp believe that we are in the thousand year reign right now or something. I'm not suggesting that. Rather I am suggesting that God's implication in having Israel with us for almost 80 years now might have more to do with His intent for the world to believe that an ultimate time is coming where Christ governs the world. I believe this is at least in large part fitting because God is using a nation itself to imply that He will be the stone out of the mountain to conquer all worldly nations. I believe this is something considered by you before as well Margery. So i am just saying that what if the interest in having Israel here with us for close to a century = Christ indeed will reign the earth (for it is impossible for Isael to form, much less survive almost a century of never ending assault against this tiny country unless God enforces care to have a nation and its protection). Its just the point I am making is that there tends to be a fascination and instinct even in how to track watching what evil does. In the event this is not coming across too clearly i would like to try something in expression. Please note I mean this with the upmost respect of differing views respect and am just using it as a mode of helpful but definite contrast. Here goes:
- The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [1]
- The Hope In Christ [2]
In what i am suggesting is that perhaps the "world shifting" (like Venezuela, like Honduras, Like El Salvador) is God permitting some potential breathing room before this world becomes a bowling alley. If that is why there is a right wing shift, then it would have less to do with politics as usual. And what goes with that. it would have to do with the right wing shift as it relates to a good and freeing purpose of God, as viewed through the [2] filter. Not, "Well we know someday we will reign with Christ but right now the focus has to be dark or we might be fooling ourselves (the [1] filter)."
In the [1] filter the idea is to not get tricked. In the [2] filter it is not to miss the deeper purpose. Albeit we might see understanding how a beast system forms as "His purpose." But ultimately i would differ. His purpose is to rule the world rightly. So what is connected to that is not so much the beast system but the anti-antiChrist. What goes with Israel being a country again with us is not as much, the beast will use Israel to rebuild a temple to demand worship. Yes Isreal means "one who struggles with God." But it also means "God prevails." We know Israel struggled with God for 2,000 years in their diaspora. But their return implies the part of their name where God prevails. So in the 20th and 21st century language...I believe the message to the world in the age of grace is not [1] Beware of the beast system coming, but [2], we can hope in Christ. If that is the dinner tux Israel is wearing now, then it would not be a stretch to say that the link that most profoundly relates to God as prevailing is His coming rule. So if that is so, and it seems to be, it might be helpful to consider what other social artifact hieroglyphics "accompany" the "God prevails/Hope in Christ [2]" filter might include along the lines of Israel coming to the dinner table in tux. We afford this in our assertion and concern for the Abrahamic Covenant toward Israel. So that would be [2] filter. Having them here as they are and focusing on the beast system aspects for an age we won't be in (when compared to God offering the super low hanging fruit of Israel representing how God prevails) is more like [1] filter. More focus on thought threads not to be duped than thought threads like [2]. For example, "What if God wants to show the world hyper grace now before the tribulation?" We know that can't happen because He told us we would go into tribulation [2]. We know "know" the real way to look at our age is not whatever else God might do, but that we know evil will prevail (in the short term) because God prevailing in Israel implies that evil will prevail prior to the tribulation (even though no scholar dares define how the Ez 38 war ends if it is prior to or during the tribulation and God be made super known to the world...an implication of the grandiosity of where the focus could be well placed even in our day perhaps, amen). So just saying i am trying to draw a contrast. To say that the shift to the right today is an act of God is like saying in Trump we do trust. And i think embroiled bias in all of that makes it really hard to detect if there is substance in that thought arena outside of that one of NAR. To me, what is hiding in plain sight is not so much the masonic order's symbology implying we should have known better. But God, who most certainly does...know better. When we look at [1] and [2] what do we think we see?
I see the MAGA trend used to protect Israel to a degree. I don't think MAGA is about Israel - it's purpose is to MAGA, not MIGA.
I think all these trends are in place to bring about prophetic fulfillment, not to make a particular nation great again even if that does happen. Because the making great again has a purpose, and an end goal that is about Israel, and Prophecy, not about making lives better in a particular country.
I agree with this as it relates to prophecy. Was the Sabbath created for God or man? So in that same sense, I whole heartedly believe that God might want and bring the world to better fiscal soundness so that people do live better. Just like we as mere humans treat our cats and dogs as family. With cordial love and care and not just food or entertainment. In this sense I would suggest though that we might slightly move past the heart of God. I mean i don't think God is interested in doing this or that to "fulfill prophecy." As though that might be some greater goal than what that prophecy does. And dear sister i know you are not saying that. Amen. What i am desirous to do though is reduce the stigma with goodness for temporal blessing to God's creation as an overly selfish thought. When we see NAR we see the desperation of kind of wanting to hold to their own carnal senses. In Trump conquering the world. And in their being right about prophecy. In contrast, since God is good. I think it is ok that He improve the world for a minute for the purpose that His creation "experience" its good. Because ultimately that is who He is. For example, the reason He saves us is: Ephesians 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the [k]boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. And in that sense if He wants to demonstrate what the heart of His looks like in a temporal sense...it would practically be of the essence of it being for its own good. And received as though it were His aim. Because it kind of is.
I'm not sure how this might come across. Having come from ideologies in past denominations that would tend to overly spiritualize things so that I would have to scratch my head and ask Jesus, "But what you really mean is that the Sabbath is for God though right?" But I'm just trying to say that if the way people come to know God is through a hearty temporal provision of His, whether it is long or short term, i think God would want them to see and taste that He is good. For 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 months, 5 years, 5 centuries etcetera. This is why NAR does freak me out...lol...but does not hold the power to disenfranchise the goodness of God in the temporal because of their views. I think NAR is actually onto something only in that their thinking and attempting to see God's good (however misled and confused it is--AND IT IS) i believe in part is a mirror for the real church. The believing church. I am sure some in NAR are saved despite. But I am just saying that as messed up as NAR is it can be helpful if they are in some way a mirror for us to fix ourselves in. Not to be like them perhaps as some kind of other side to their infatuation with the familiar coin (a potential common denominator being inclined to our own perspectives--way way way too much). Something i have not shared in a while. But seems to have not really changed in the 5 years i had taken notice somewhat in this type of potential help from God to us His church.
Nebuchadnezzar for example was good in some ways for Israel, bad in some ways at the time, and God dealt with his pride, he went nuts for 7 years, then repented of his pride and God restored him. He ends his time in the Bible by belief in God. He destroyed a lot of lives, he led people to worship that statue and he did some awful stuff, but ended up being used by God to help us see thru Daniel, what the outline of history would be.
Thanks so much for your heart with concern toward my discussions Margery. In many places we so agree. And we strive to see where we might. I am not doing that so much here because i want to just be helpful where differences that i believe are paramount might be. Again we agree here. Where the difference is in what i am saying (not that it has to be true) is this: Yes, what you say here is true. And the way God shows that in the close of the age of grace that includes gentiles (not just unbelieving Israel) is possibly by showing us that God reminds us of the book of Daniel by bringing Israel back on the scene with its emphasis toward: God prevails. And what God prevails looks like in the age of grace as a God ordained possible talking point is to maybe give our age a taste of the age to come. Not the tribulation, but the thousand year reign. So if that is the greater takeaway and our focus is in how evil fulfills God's will. I guess we do see somethings. And if my notion is wrong, we would likely just see what is. But in the event God is implying by having Israel in our midst ideas of "his prevailing" more than how evil fulfills prophecy...I would see doing that as not exactly wrong (that our focus might be on how evil forms that closing chapter of the age of grace). But i believe it could tend to truncate the purpose for prophesy in some ways, potentially. In that those who might come to know Him believe that he is good (the opposite of the eating of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...in barrowing from the above analogy).
The early church for 1700 years seemed to consider that the approaching of the tribulation would steam forward through corridors of supernatural blessing. It is possible they were wrong. But these views of the age of grace providing darkness leading to tribulation i believe is a more modern notion in the church history. I am sure there is room for discussion there. And we can disagree. i am just trying to articulate the best i can where what i am saying has a unique place. I don't think it should because i am saying it. It does seem odd that even though I have heard similar views merely hinted at twice in the watcher world, what i am sharing here though i don't think should be as non-mainstream as it is. Its almost like, to me, a huge elephant in the room. I believe it is something evangelicals should at least be considering. But we (the evangelical watcher world perspective) for the most part would not even consider it much of an option. If it were, my posts would be super much shorter....lol. But its worth the effort because I don't think the way things are leaning it is something we can rule out just yet. If so, I will concede. But right now, it looks like more than ever these are things the church could be seeing and discussing. At least on some level.
Well thank you Margery and CCF for an opportunity to at least consider such things on our forum. If this ends up being more true than not, this cannot be the only corner of the world where it could be a consideration. But i am grateful to have this corner of the world with my forum family. Amen
God fore knew that we would have difficulty understanding some things, and I think He expresses His Word more completely, with shades of meaning that different opinions bring to the text.
In other words, debate is ok, and differences may sharpen our understanding of His Word.
Very well said dear sister
Amen. It reminds me of something I posted in private regarding John 15 "love one another." Because it would seem that built in to that is the ability to see "What the Father is doing" [as] we love one another. Perhaps the more love, the more we see. And in how you said in what you said in the latest quote, It kind of looks like God fixed it so we would have to share to see. Blessings
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This one minute video perhaps might demonstrate a small token of how the right in the midst of a pitch black liberal forum still gets a standing ovation. I would imagine globalism taking interested on the popular glow of leverage and become camillians. But this story unfolding could also be about a world allowed 80 seconds to midnight rest of sobriety before the kicker...and it in essence be more than a temporal thing over there in the corner, while the real meat and potatoes be about the tribulation. Because if by chance it has something to do with the 1,000 year reign offer, and the further "revelation" of His goodness to be believed upon, those 80 seconds would be of signature importance even as the very reign of Christ to be is. After the 7 years, God will still be good. Perhaps the 80 seconds to midnight might be a last call reminder of that. And if so, to see it anywhere near merely as a pitstop along the way to the really BIG show, the tribulation, might be a reasonable focus. But perhaps it could be in discussion if it be the best one. Unfortunately, it is not even a discussion point in any real sense in the active and public watcher world consideration circuit. It might likely end up being more like something never discussed. But we'll have all eternity for that. Blessings.
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