Ezekiel 38 and Psalm 83: Relationship and Timing

[TCC]

Hi guys. Thanks so much for this thread. I had no idea this was here. Bless you guys for discussing it. To me, the things being said today in the general eschatology media seems to mention this book here and there lately. In all honesty, the way I took it without even getting into this book was how central it was to the time of this prophecy given. And not so much a prophecy for the end times or the tribulation. As I revisit this in detail, I believe my findings have become more secure in what I had originally presumed. But in revisiting this, it has given me pause toward's how others might understand this. And to be more apperciative and respectful of those views.

You guys, this is kind of hard for me to do because what developed in me over the decades in Christianity (as I began to notice how often much scripture can be twisted even in our own church's--enough for me to literally try and run from God like Jonah...literally) was a huge red flag in how evangelicalism might parade themes scripturally that to me was a twisting of scripture. And I found myself trying to align with the image of the church more than Christ because of how I felt I needed to practice an entirely other set of value the church held beyond what I saw scripture saying. And that, as you can imagine, really did an incredible amount of damage.

So seeing the potential uses of Zepheniah to me feels like reruns of all that. But because it is the word of God, and we should be willing to face it, I thank the OP and all here that have an interest in this book at such a time as this. I understand how this book looks. A lot of commentaries get carried away by its "Day of the Lord" language and it would seem they often merge it with Joel and other end time books. So its seems reasonable why we might lean in that direction. Before today, I would just see doing that as hypie like. But I believe that for me is not the most honest approach since there are many sincere good faith efforts looking at this book from varying angles. I would say though however that it does seem to be a book that can be used to influence right now how we look at that region of the world. And in all honesty, as one poster outlined earlier in this thread, I would see shoehorning Zephaniah in with current events will not work. Nor do I see that is its utility from a very practical observation of the book. So my heart is more anchored in where the idea of the book is most grounding in its historical context referencing.

. . . . .

Lets look at what The Bible Project does with this book.

Zephaniah 1:14 Commentaries: Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly.

biblehub.com

Its only a 5 minute overview. I admit in viewing this it does suggest quite a wider theme than just what is going on with Israel when it was written. Overall my understanding is this: That God meant the heavy leaning weight of the book for that day it was written as a testimony how He will purge Isreal in the tribulation period. But its import on the Day of The Lord, I would view stops dead at the threshold of its end time utility. Mainly and only that "As we see historically what happened in the book" So we know "God will refine Israel in the end." And trying to take it beyond that I believe is going too far. But it is more understandable to me now why some might.

ZEPHENIAH 1:14 DAY OF THE LORD

Zephaniah 1:14 Commentaries: Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly.

biblehub.com

If we look at commentary overview we can see it does connect Day of the Lord with end times language. But also what is a fair overview of these commentaries is that we do get a sense that The Day of the Lord emphasis in Zephaniah seems very titled toward that day. In other words, was the book of Lamentations not a Day of the Lord? Was the time the Chaldeans took the Northern Kingdom of Israel not a Day of the Lord? Was the capture of Southern Israel and temple destruction not a Day of the Lord? Was the time Israel was sacked by Rome and again the temple destroyed and the Jews diaspora-ed not a Day of the Lord? Most clearly of these commentaries it would seem Gill most clearly sees that import.

By the nature of how the book demonstrates its locations and themes (dealing with the Philistine world) it would seem that the notions of Day of the Lord largely implicate what God will do in the short term. Yes as an overlay extension to the end of time during the tribulation -- but not seemingly to use these verses to be necessarily about that time. But rather to use these verses to affirm the sober reality of God being true by the judgement that would happen there historically.

Zephaniah 2:4 Commentaries: For Gaza will be abandoned And Ashkelon a desolation; Ashdod will be driven out at noon And Ekron will be uprooted.

biblehub.com

Which we can read about in these commentaries about Gaza, for example. I believe it is a mistake to apply this book to modern day Gaza. Because the context of Zephaniah uses it in relation to the Philistines. I suppose we could extrapolate that concept and overlay it on how Iran uses Gaza to taunt Israel. Or how Hamas had been granted a foothold there by Israel. But neither really speaks to the centricity of the concept Philistine represented in that day. Because we can see by the mapping of the cities Kaatje mentioned, that overlay for today does not carry the sense overall contextual sense. And to me, that is how the word of God is written. It is context super heavy. Context being king in exegesis. And when we do that to Zephaniah, it is clearly not talking about Israel in 2025. It would have implications toward Israel's refinement in the tribulation, yes. But that is not the day we are in right now. And I believe to use this book as a shoehorn into current day prophecy is to ignore its built-in self-evident context in how to understand the book. If that makes sense?

. . . . .

As for what Magery covered. I am touched to see such interest. I did not see the video she referred to. But just in that sense it would seem that a lot of people are looking at this book with a renewed zeal of how to understand it approaching the tribulation period. So in the sense that it seems to be something several are considering, to that extent it does cause me pause in how dogmatically I might otherwise look at it. In considering this, it does not really change the way I look at the book. But it does lighten my concern over what seems to some degree could be a Sensationalizing of the book. Or so it might seem in my concern. So I thank you Margery for bring this to our attention. And I will consider this concern for this book to be something we will likely be seeing in the eschatological sphere. I don't believe it fits all that well there, to me. But it has made sense to a degree why others might. And that for me, is helpful. Blessings.

 

[mattfivefour]

I believe it is a mistake to apply this book to modern day Gaza. Because the context of Zephaniah uses it in relation to the Philistines.

Respectfully, my brother, I would take issue with a lot of what you wrote in your previous message; but I will deal with just what I quoted above, as it encapsulates my problem with everything else in your message.

I believe it's a serious mistake in itself to not apply the book of Zephaniah to modern day Gaza "because the context of Zephaniah uses it in a relation to the Philistines." Yes, the Bible is a history book. And it is 100% accurate in it's teachings and its history ... as it is in everything else. But God wasn't just giving us history.

In every thing which God has given us He has always had a deeper purpose. Within the foreseen (from His viewpoint) events of history, the Almighty Lord God created both lessons for our lives and views of the future. Why would He give us views of the future? Well, first of all, He tells us in Amos 3:7 that, "Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."

No action of God comes upon mankind unawares. God not only prepares us for blessings but also gives warning of judgment. By letting us know what is to come, God can bring us to repentance of sin or fill us with hope for our future. And He gives us pictures of our future both through descriptions of it and pictures of it told through the events of history. This is the lesson taught to us by biblical or prophetic telescoping. If we abandoned this principle, then we are left at sea amongst all the prophetic scriptures. Events that should be tied together are left blowing in the wind on their own; leaving us to try and figure out what's going on. God did not intend for us to be in the dark. His word is clear and can be accurately deciphered on any topic. Why do we presume that prophecy and, specifically, eschatology is intended to be a mystery?

 

[TCC]

Respectfully, my brother, I would take issue with a lot of what you wrote in your previous message; but I will deal with just what I quoted above, as it encapsulates my problem with everything else in your message.

I believe it's a serious mistake in itself to not apply the book of Zephaniah to modern day Gaza "because the context of Zephaniah uses it in a relation to the Philistines." Yes, the Bible is a history book. And it is 100% accurate in it's teachings and its history ... as it is in everything else. But God wasn't just giving us history.

In every thing which God has given us He has always had a deeper purpose. Within the foreseen (from His viewpoint) events of history, the Almighty Lord God created both lessons for our lives and views of the future. Why would he give us views of the future? Well, first of all, he tells us in Amos 3:7 that, "Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."

No action of God comes upon mankind unawares. God not only prepares us for blessings but also gives warning of judgment. By letting us know what is to come, God can bring us to repentance of sin or fill us with hope for our future. And he gives us pictures of our future both through descriptions of it and pictures of it told through the events of history. This is the lesson taught to us by biblical or prophetic telescoping. If we abandoned this principle, then we are left at sea amongst all the prophetic scriptures. Events that should be tied together are left blowing in the wind on their own; leaving us to try and figure out what's going on. God did not intend for us to be in the dark. His word is clear and can be accurately deciphered on any topic. Why do we presume that prophecy and, specifically, eschatology is intended to be a mystery?

On your last point Pastor Adiran, I don't. lol. Although the way we might see that would likely have vast differences. I say that as a means of hopefully clarifying those differences. For me, in general i would see that God wants us to know the future through His word and through providence (because I would see the church as children of providence). I know i have mentioned this before, but just restating it here because it is not something i have seen typically held. And that would be that I believe the way in which God operates in the end time portion of our age of grace is hugely providential. In some cases, I would almost want to say perhaps more than biblical eschatology may reveal simply. But i don't mean that. However, in comparison though, it could seem to be this way (at least in what degree i would understand God might use providence in our day). And by saying that i am not saying that God does not use scriptural eschatology to reveal end times to the generation it is for, us. Not saying that at all. I would just lean in the direction that I have not seen that we might be as prepared for how much providence actually might play into end times. Because it would make sense we might lean more to our understanding of eschatology in His word. Which does make sense. But what i am saying is just that since the church is not a chosen people as much as we would see it was for Israel, but a people out of their rejection chosen in His providence in as much. And although that might seem a bit too ethereal (i understand how it might), I would just see the description in Romans regarding the church arriving on the wings of providence (Israel's rejection), that that "word" has quite a bit more weight then we might generally put on it, is all.

When i look at Amos doing nothing less He reveal things ahead of time to his prophets, I would simply ask, so who is a prophet today? I would ask this question honestly. I understand there are different uses of that term. And it could just mean those who preach and teach. And in the sense of Amos it might well extend into that, amen. But whatever it might mean, what it does not mean is prophet as one who's sayings today will be canonized. So because of that I tend to see this in reference to the Old Testament operating system. However, even in that, I would not dismiss its sentiment. I would just qualify it a little differently. Like instead of Him informing His prophets, instead, He is informing the whole entire world (including unbelievers) through providence of which we are currently experiencing. So i realize this does not sound very safe...lol. But if I am mistaken, i am. However, as to God's intent to help us to know the future, I would say on that note His intent today is even more than just letting the prophets know. He at least would let the body of Christ see clearer. Regardless of those differences, the end result of God really really wanting us to know the future I believe is not only very present in our day, but more so than it ever has been. I just get to that observation differently.

As for the passage itself, i would be very interested in how we apply it to Ashkelon, Ashdod and Ekron though. Maybe there is. So what might we say of those? One reason i would have pause here dear brother is that 1 pastor has mentioned that whatever Trump is trying to do in Gaza won't come to pass because Gaza will be abandoned. So in that one i see quite a bit of problem. Could it be true? Sure. I guess. But if we use God's word to say "See Gaza will be abandon" therefore whatever Trump wants to do there won't work is not a reasonable use of scripture. Now if someone is a prophet, and they know that and God told them. Ok. Yeah. Let's go with that. But where is that prophet? And are we to then say, that what Trump might do in Gaza cannot be the providence of God? How do we know? We don't. Because we have not yet seen it. Does that mean i am just trying to defend some providence of God for Trump? Well i have my views. But i am not married to them. I'm fine if Gaza becomes abandoned because Zephaniah told us Trump's efforts are not providential, this is totally fine with me. Amen. Let's go there. But the likelihood of that being what Zephaniah is saying is pretty slim. So are we all believing today what we should be looking for is an abandoned Gaza? I believe the word of God does teach us in the future tense. But God's word can also just use its historical landmark to also affirm how certain Israel will be refined during the tribulation. Which is what it seems it demonstrates. Ok so if it is speaking about today, where is the study of what that all means for Ashkelon, Ashdod and Ekron? To me its just that we see Gaza and relate...and maybe tend to extrapolate the familiar? If so, that is not necessarily defense able with how God uses prophecy about the future--at least not seemingly demonstrably so. Whether that passage is about Gaza or not today has necessarily nothing though to do with if God uses prophecy to speak of our day. Because God has and does regardless how we interpret Zephaniah 2:4.

. . . . .

In summary, i don't believe God wants us in the dark. I believe actually He wants us in the light by even providence (an additional dimension added along with prophecy disclosure). So in that sense i could say i believe God wants us seeing even more than just through eschatology. I also believe He is making it pretty straight forward in providence. For example, in eschatology a big deal is that America has to degrease and the NWO increase. Those are primary views. But if what God does with providence is increase American power to bury the NWO then it becomes merely a difference in how we are understanding the how and where to apply eschatology. But that providence in that take might have a "way showing" edge beyond our thoughts upon eschatology. And that path is actually almost clearer in that if America had been protecting Israel for 7 decades, it would seem reasonable that America might still do that till the rapture. Because of 1 Thes 5. We know it will be a time of peace and safety. But if our views of the NWO crowd that out or struggle to see how that fits, we might be permitting our understanding of eschatology to have a leg up on the actual providence God is currently operating in to bring about the fulfillment of eschatology. If that makes sense though? Blessings.

 

[mattfivefour]

Again, brother, there's so much in Your stream of consciousness reply that I don't know quite where to grab hold of it all. You seem to be at times an all-in kind of guy. You seem to view what we are discussing as either being about everything being relevant only at some specific time to everything having significance for the future. But I did not say the latter. Yes, everything in biblical history is for us to learn from. Everything in biblical history has significance for us in some way. But not everything in biblical history has a relationship to the future.

Surely the lesson of Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Ekron, and Gath is the lesson that while God used the Philistines to discipline Israel, Philistia was not above God; and her five great cities would be destroyed as if they were nothing. That's the lesson for us: God may use ungodly things to scourge us, to chasten us, to bring us into obedience according to His perfect will. Our position as his children does not mean that evil or harm cannot reach us if God deems it necessary for our good. But at the same time that evil, that wickedness, has not asserted itself above the power of God. God has employed it for His perfect purposes. Therefore, it is under His power. And that's the greater truth-- that evil continues to exist only by permission of God.

So, why doesn't He just wipe out evil? Because we human beings are wrapped up in it and He loves us and wants to redeem every single one of us or of that evil, if possible. Now, we know that's not possible; Scripture tells us it's not possible. God is under no illusions about that fact. Nor should we be. But if God were to destroy evil today, millions of our souls would immediately go to Hell. But God of surgery so he has created loves every soul he has created and does not want to lose one of them (2 Peter 3:9). He knows that millions will come to Him if He just permits things to go on a little longer. He's permitted it for 6,000 years; and He will permit it until, in His perfect knowledge, He knows it's time to end this Age of Grace and allow the Great Tribulation to occur.

Anyway, I have gotten a little off my initial track there. My main point is this-- that everything has significance for us in some way, but not necessarily physically in terms of the future. And the mistake far too many watchers and newspaper eschatologists make is to try to fit the words of Scripture, especially the words of the Old Testament prophets, into the geopolitical framework of today. Just because we are in the last of the last times, does not mean that everything will line up the way we think it will. There are certain major signs, indeed; but there's far too much poking around trying to find the slightest little thing that could possibly be interpreted as an end time sign. None of that is necessary, in my opinion. The miraculous and totally amazing recreation of Israel in one day is enough of a sign to know we are in the last days. Is that not enough?

If we would put as much effort into proclaiming the gospel to everyone we can and supporting the ministries that are doing it around the world as we do examining every event for prophetic significance, I think we all would be living a lot closer to what God desires for us. As I always say, watching doesn't mean looking around: it means focusing on what we are supposed to be doing. It means being faithful to what God called us to do. As Jesus said in his end times discourse in Matthew 24: "Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes."

Even so, may each one of us be blessed.

 

[TCC]

Again, brother, there's so much in Your stream of consciousness reply that I don't know quite where to grab hold of it all. You seem to be at times an all-in kind of guy. You seem to view what we are discussing as either being about everything being relevant only at some specific time to everything having significance for the future. But I did not say the latter. Yes, everything in biblical history is for us to learn from. Everything in biblical history has significance for us in some way. But not everything in biblical history has a relationship to the future.

Surely the lesson of Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Ekron, and Gath is the lesson that while God used the Philistines to discipline Israel, Philistia was not above God; and her five great cities would be destroyed as if they were nothing. That's the lesson for us: God may use ungodly things to scourge us, to chasten us, to bring us into obedience according to His perfect will. Our position as his children does not mean that evil or harm cannot reach us if God deems it necessary for our good. But at the same time that evil, that wickedness, has not asserted itself above the power of God. God has employed it for His perfect purposes. Therefore, it is under His power. And that's the greater truth-- that evil continues to exist only by permission of God.

So, why doesn't He just wipe out evil? Because we human beings are wrapped up in it and He loves us and wants to redeem every single one of us or of that evil, if possible. Now, we know that's not possible; Scripture tells us it's not possible. God is under no illusions about that fact. Nor should we be. But if God were to destroy evil today, millions of our souls would immediately go to Hell. But God of surgery so he has created loves every soul he has created and does not want to lose one of them (2 Peter 3:9). He knows that millions will come to Him if He just permits things to go on a little longer. He's permitted it for 6,000 years; and He will permit it until, in His perfect knowledge, He knows it's time to end this Age of Grace and allow the Great Tribulation to occur.

Anyway, I have gotten a little off my initial track there. My main point is this-- that everything has significance for us in some way, but not necessarily physically in terms of the future. And the mistake far too many watchers and newspaper eschatologists make is to try to fit the words of Scripture, especially the words of the Old Testament prophets, into the geopolitical framework of today. Just because we are in the last of the last times, does not mean that everything will line up the way we think it will. There are certain major signs, indeed; but there's far too much poking around trying to find the slightest little thing that could possibly be interpreted as an end time sign. None of that is necessary, in my opinion. The miraculous and totally amazing recreation of Israel in one day is enough of a sign to know we are in the last days. Is that not enough?

If we would put as much effort into proclaiming the gospel to everyone we can and supporting the ministries that are doing it around the world as we do examining every event for prophetic significance, I think we all would be living a lot closer to what God desires for us. As I always say, watching doesn't mean looking around: it means focusing on what we are supposed to be doing. It means being faithful to what God called us to do. As Jesus said in his end times discourse in Matthew 24: "Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes."

Even so, may each one of us be blessed.

Pastor Adrian I deeply respect you brother. And I adore our forum family here. Amen. And I hear what you are saying. And it has spiritual value....amen. But I don't believe that was what the thread was all about though. Outside of which watcher camp has the best fantasy team bingo card filled out correctly, here is how i was spiritually impacted by this thread:

* I WAS DISCOURAGED -- I was very discouraged in how some would use Zephaniah 2:4 to procliam today that God will caused Gaza to be abandoned. In this way I understood that (from a different pastor -- not from this thread) is a very misguided, confused, and even desperate rendering of the very word of God. It was used to prove that Trump is not involved in the Providence of God. I am not here to defend Trump. But I happen to believe that Trump might be included in the Providence of God. I leave that to God.

* I WAS CHARMED AND BLESSED BY THE COMMON LOVE OF FAMILY INTERACTING IN THE BODY WITH THE WORD -- After I was very discouraged to see the word of God twisted in this way, I came upon this thread. And seeing that average everyday people like ourselves are looking into Zephaniah and discussing--this gave me hope. I was refreshed to see it. Because we were discussing it. And we held here that there might be some future aspect to Zephaniah. So when I saw this thread I was relieved because it brought the book back into sanity. Where it wasn't an arm wrestle against what God might be doing with Trump in the world. Nor was it used to prove that we see God's word deeper than how Providence might otherwise be functioning around us.

* IT BECAME INCREASINGLY REFRESHING AND HEALING TO SEE HUMBLE BEAUTY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST FUNCTIONING WELL -- So when I saw this thread Pastor, I saw a pool of living water. A place where our opinions and our stressing this or stressing that was not going on here. We were just discussing different ways to see this book. And sharing from our own takes. And that is a beautiful sight to see God's kids at play. And I became so grateful I changed something I posted in a different location. Because this thread ministred to me.

* BECAUSE OF BEING BLESSED I FELT LED TO SHARE FROM WHAT I WAS LEARNING AS WELL ALONG THE WAY -- Then I just entered into the discussion. Some were seeing how it was for the tribulation period and some how it emphasized the historical intent of the book. So I just joined in the thread. And shared that I thought it was (after really looking back into the book and researching it some) to me, looking like heavily focused on that time period with extra allusion to a time when Isreal would be purged. The fascinating incredient there for me was (which was new for me) that the Day of the Lord in this context seemed to highlight "A day of the Lord" concept more than "the Day of the Lord" concept. Which I admit is rare to actually see land smack dab in our laps. But in that way, this book does that...for me it does...anywayz.

And that is why I posted what I did. Then I believe Pastor you mentioned that you were under the impression that I did not think Zephaniah had prophetic intent for our day. Or at least that is how it sounded. And I responded to you that I see it as defining its historic period and alluding to Israel being refined in her 70th week. But that I did not see it as a book today to apply it to Gaza (geopolitically). The reason is because the other cities mentioned are historic heels dug in. Context defines itself. We can differ on how true or not that might be. Or that you would see it perhaps in the sense of spiritual value for today more than it being a prophesy to match. And this was something I shared with you about how I mostly feel about the book of Revelation. In that similar way...amen. So in a way you are preaching to the choir. lol. But I understand in my blood and how I am wired, I will be very hot toward the geopolitical. Because in my upbringing the word was very twisted before me. And in these days as you share we have great issues with strong arming the word today. Amen. So I want to stay agile. I want to stay fluid. I want to say humble, teachable and open. But at the end of the day, I have kind of been primed to have a geopolitical interest. Like a historian would be more interested and gravitate to history or things related more than math or English. So I believe I am primed in this way I am far more interested in seeing the charactor of God play out in our age than how it technically matches Eschatology. So even on that note, I am very much with you brother. But what I fight to see is not political accuracy. Its to breathe in the depth of His character exposed in a seashell. A child laughing. A moment like coming to this thread and it provide healing. Seeing the character of God in all these things I believe doth Trump technical eschatology. Amen. I agree. Blessings.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

[very minority view of Ezekiel 37-38-39]


I think we're watching Ezekiel 38-39 prophecies happen in front of our very eyes.
I think Zephaniah 2, Isaiah 17, and Psalm 83 occur intertwined/concurrently with Gog-Magog, invasion toward Israel, etc. in Ezekiel 38-39.

I think the prayer in Psalm 83 leads into God bringing all of the House of Israel into Israel, which includes all of the Jewish people from Abraham forward, and the dry bones (Ezekiel 37) are all of the Jewish bones everywhere, and God knits them back together, breathes life into them, and puts them all back in Israel. I think God breathing life into them implies The Holy Ghost, so that would explain how they know God, Jesus as the Messiah, etc. I think this may be part of how God creates the mighty Jewish army that annihilates the enemies (along with with His miracles and power, etc.). Given the multi-front war Israel is fighting against traditional enemies, Psalm 83 is an apropos prayer.

If Israel is to burn the weapons for 7 years, considering how fast modern warfare is and the speed at which everything is happening now, we need to be looking up and listening closely