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Ecclesiastes 4:2
- Thread starter Quantrill
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Anastacia
Let Him do to me whatever seems good to Him 2Sam15
Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed— and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors— and they have no comforter. And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive. But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.
Ecc. 4:1-3
Solomon seems very disheartened by all the injustice, evil, and tyranny. Looking at mankind, in general, most of us do not walk with God, and so most don't have His comfort, His assurance, help, salvation. Without Him, really, we are each without hope. ...I'd agree that if a person chooses to live and die without Jesus, someday they will wish they were never even born. Sadly, most already feel like that while living, so how much more will they regret it for all eternity. In these last days, we see wickedness abounding and it is definitely very depressing. I feel sad for those who are still growing up, and those not even born yet.
So I concluded that the dead are better off than the living. NLT
Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. KJV
And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive. NIV
So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. NASB95
So I congratulated and thought more fortunate are those who are already dead than the living who are still living. AMP
Ecc. 4:2
Ecc. 4:1-3
Solomon seems very disheartened by all the injustice, evil, and tyranny. Looking at mankind, in general, most of us do not walk with God, and so most don't have His comfort, His assurance, help, salvation. Without Him, really, we are each without hope. ...I'd agree that if a person chooses to live and die without Jesus, someday they will wish they were never even born. Sadly, most already feel like that while living, so how much more will they regret it for all eternity. In these last days, we see wickedness abounding and it is definitely very depressing. I feel sad for those who are still growing up, and those not even born yet.
So I concluded that the dead are better off than the living. NLT
Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. KJV
And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive. NIV
So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. NASB95
So I congratulated and thought more fortunate are those who are already dead than the living who are still living. AMP
Ecc. 4:2
@Anastacia
But...is it just saying the dead are better off than the living?
He praised the dead 'which are already dead'. More than the living 'which are yet alive'.
Why wouldn't he just say, 'I praise the dead more then the living'?
Quantrill
But...is it just saying the dead are better off than the living?
He praised the dead 'which are already dead'. More than the living 'which are yet alive'.
Why wouldn't he just say, 'I praise the dead more then the living'?
Quantrill
Many people make the mistake with the Book of Ecclesiastes thinking that because it's in the Bible it must contain the teaching of God. Well, it does in its conclusion, but all that precedes that does not... at least not directly. You see, when reading the book of Ecclesiastes, it is crucial to understand that it is a record of the thinking of a man who was exploring life trying to find out its meaning. It it is not a series of teachings from God to tell us how to live or think. In fact some of the things in the book are against God's will for us; but it was necessary that Solomon be allowed to examine every aspect of life and the pursuit of happiness and purpose.
By the 4th chapter of this book, Solomon's examination of life has brought him to the realization that there is a lot of suffering in life and not a whole lot of meaning for a man or woman on their own. Consequently he says that, to his way of thinking, the dead are better off than thy living. The living have to deal with the problems and the suffering of life, but the dead (remember this is in Solomon's mind) are free from such suffering. So not only is it better to be dead than alive, it's better that you were never born in the first place because then you'd never have to suffer. This is just one of the many conclusions Solomon comes to as he examines life.
As we follow Solomon's thinking as he looks at riches and women and pleasures and everything else in search of something that was satisfied, we see that he finds nothing of any usefulness, any real purpose, any real satisfaction. Therefore, at the end of the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon gives his conclusion. He says "When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this: Fear God and keep His commandments, because this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil." (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) And this is the only teaching that you can pull from the book of Ecclesiastes and use as a guide in life.
Then what is the point of the book? God uses the whole book to show us the vanity or futility of anything except living in humbleness before God. As God has allowed Solomon to experience, everything on earth, without God in the picture, winds up as meaningless, leads Solomon to the conclusion above: that nothing except following God has any meaning. Therefore, these last words alone are God's instruction to us it of this book.
I hope this helps.
By the 4th chapter of this book, Solomon's examination of life has brought him to the realization that there is a lot of suffering in life and not a whole lot of meaning for a man or woman on their own. Consequently he says that, to his way of thinking, the dead are better off than thy living. The living have to deal with the problems and the suffering of life, but the dead (remember this is in Solomon's mind) are free from such suffering. So not only is it better to be dead than alive, it's better that you were never born in the first place because then you'd never have to suffer. This is just one of the many conclusions Solomon comes to as he examines life.
As we follow Solomon's thinking as he looks at riches and women and pleasures and everything else in search of something that was satisfied, we see that he finds nothing of any usefulness, any real purpose, any real satisfaction. Therefore, at the end of the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon gives his conclusion. He says "When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this: Fear God and keep His commandments, because this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil." (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) And this is the only teaching that you can pull from the book of Ecclesiastes and use as a guide in life.
Then what is the point of the book? God uses the whole book to show us the vanity or futility of anything except living in humbleness before God. As God has allowed Solomon to experience, everything on earth, without God in the picture, winds up as meaningless, leads Solomon to the conclusion above: that nothing except following God has any meaning. Therefore, these last words alone are God's instruction to us it of this book.
I hope this helps.
Yes, it helps in the overall understanding of the book of (Ecclesiastes). But it is that phrase in (Ecc. 4:2) that interests me.
"I praised the dead which are already dead." Which indicates to me he has in view that there are 'dead' who are yet physically alive.
"more than the living which are "yet alive." Which indicates to me he has in view that there are those 'living' who are not yet physically born.
My opinion.
Quantrill
Brother, I take a much simpler approach: I take Solomon's words at face value. He's praising the dead because they're already dead and therefore (in his thinking) free of suffering; and he does so more than the living because they're still alive and still suffering. I think anything beyond that becomes supposition. And that's the dangerous move from exegesis to eisegesis ... from which most errors flow.
Except the simpler approach would have been for him to say, " I praise the dead more than the living". Because that is all you are saying he said.
Consider this statement from Jesus. (Luke 9:60) "Let the dead bury their dead"
Does that add anything to (Ecc. 4:2)?
Quantrill
Yes. But the book of Ecclesiastes is Hebrew wisdom literature written in a Hebrew poetic style. And when you realize that you'll understand that things back then weren't said in a direct manner, but in a poetic manner. Solomon's words in those verses is classic Hebraic poetry delivering a wisdom message.
I do not think so. Although both passages refer to the dead, the topics under discussion are quite different. We've already discussed Solomon's topic; Christ's topic is that of dedication to Messiah. Jewish belief at that time was that nothing was greater than family obligations under the law. Jesus is teaching that family obligations and responsibilities came second the following Him. Jesus made it clear that anyone who wants you to follow him would pay a price. Let those who are not willing to follow Messiah, in other words those who are still dead in their sins, stay with their families and look after them. But If you want to follow Jesus, and leave all those things behind.
Does that help?
If it helps you, that is fine. I don't disagree with what you said. But, it doesn't add or take away the point I was making. Which is, the terms 'the living' and 'the dead' in Scripture can describe and divide the whole human race as of God or not of God. Not just the ones physically walking the earth at this time or any given time.
Consider (Luke 20:38): "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."
Quantrill
Matthew6:33
Set your face like flint - Isaiah 50:7
I think any discrepancy is probably due to semantics with the Hebrew poetic language. I do not think the 'dead unsaved' are being praised.
How about the 'living who are not yet born'.
Solomon is in a depressed state, loathing life under the sun. Life on earth. (Ecc. 4:1) To him, the unsaved dead are better off then those of God, the living, who have not yet been born. Because the 'living' still have a journey to walk through this oppressed life on earth.
My opinion.
Quantrill
True. But remember these are Solomon's ideas, not God's truth
That, sir, is a dangerous position to take.
So, Solomon is the 'author' of (Ecclesiastes) and not God?
The book of (Proverbs) are Solomon's ideas also. I guess they are not God's truth either.
Let's see...the Pentateuch are Moses ideas and not God's truth.
Your statement sets you up as the one who determines 'God's truth' as written in the Bible.
Quantrill
Not at all. You completely misunderstand both the book and my comments. In the book of Ecclesiastes, God allows us the unique insight of Solomon's thinking in order to show us that there is nothing of any true satisfaction in life except reverencing God and obeying His commandments. In order to do that we had to be privy to Solomon's ideas as he explored the various pleasures that the world could offer. It is obvious from the entire book that every worldly thing that Solomon tries is unprofitable and senseless; thus it demonstrates flawed human thinking, not God's thinking. So to take Solomon's earthly thinking and decide that it is always speaking God's truth is a very dangerous position ... because it is demonstrably false.
Matthew6:33
Set your face like flint - Isaiah 50:7
I think you answered your own question well in the bold. To him (Solomon in his thoughts) not God's thoughts. @mattfivefour correctly asserts that God is allowing Solomon to explore the limits of human wisdom. This is a teaching guide for us and all that would seek human wisdom.
Solomon himself explains this in Ecclesiastes chapter 1.
Ecclesiastes 1:12-18 NASB95 — I, the Preacher, have been king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with. I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted. I said to myself, “Behold, I have magnified and increased wisdom more than all who were over Jerusalem before me; and my mind has observed a wealth of wisdom and knowledge.” And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind. Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain.
Here again:
Is the book of (Ecclesiastes) inspired by God?
The mental state of Solomon at the time was exactly what God wanted to produce; what He wanted written.
Are the words in (Ecclesiastes) the Word of God? Or not?
Solomon is not demonstrating 'flawed human thinking'. He is demonstrating God's view of fallen man under the sun. Solomon is one who has come to his senses in his old age. And God is using him to declare the truth. And who could declare it better than one who had the ability to enjoy every pleasure under the sun.
Solomon is not producing human thinking, unless you believe (Ecclesiastes) is not inspired by God. If it is 'earthly thinking' as you say, then it is not inspired by God.
Everything Solomon says in (Ecclesiastes) is truth. God's truth.
Thus, (Ecc. 4:2) is truth. God's truth. There is plenty in (Ecclesiastes) we can search and dig for better understanding of God.
You have, on the other hand, displayed the ability to discard anything in (Ecclesiastes), on the basis that it is 'human and earthly thinking'.
As I have said, 'a dangerous position'.
Quantrill
Divine inspiration involves both the Divine and the human. What Solomon wrote is what God wanted him to write. They are God's thoughts. What is said, in the book of (Ecclesiastes), that is not God's thoughts?
Everything written in (Ecc. 1:12-18) are God's thoughts.
And no, my question to you was, 'how about the living that are not yet born'? Post #(11) Which you haven't answered.
Quantrill
@Quantrill, repeating yourself won't make your position stronger, and I think you might be misunderstanding the posts leading you to repeat yourself. As for me, I endeavor to avoid this kind of back and forth as it is generally fruitless.
It's by their own free will that a member responds to any posts, whether they are directed to them or not. If one doesn't respond, maybe another will, or maybe no one will feel inclined to. Please don't feel that anyone must respond to any of your posts. I sometimes choose not to respond to a post that is directed towards me. The reasons for that are numerous.
Of course they don't have to respond. But Matthew6:33 did respond, and that incorrectly. Thus he didn't answer my question to him. I was pointing that out. He certainly doesn't have to respond back.
Quantrill
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