Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University.

[TCC]

I understand why you would say that I lack discernment. And like I shared earlier, yes, of course its possible that when I hear certain themes in how LS abused the scriptures, it sounds the same. So yes, of course there could always be a sense where reading too much into something can occur. However, having gone through so many years of discerning, I don't believe that makes one less discerning. I can appreciate Pastor Adrian's post as you mention. Although I did actually miss it since he changed his pic...lol. So my bad. And I agree with what Pastor Adrian said. It is an inconvenient reality that those that come out of LS camps can tend to perhaps go too far the other way. I understand that. But that does not mean everyone who comes out of LS has that issue.

I take this sentiment in love. I don't take it as anectdotal. I would never rule out that I might see "too much" into something. Amen. So there is room for that. When the scripture talks about genuine faith or being tested, I'm fine with that. In LS there are not really rewards. But the way I understand God testing faith is to see the genuiness of it.

For example 1 Peter 1:6-7 the way I understand that is this: In the first century, it was understood that having wealth and success were indicators God was blessing you. Now the believing Jews are experiencing testing and trials that might suggest to them punishment in contrast. And Peter is letting them know that their faith being purified under trail is valuable and that is why things are happening. I don't see this as to prove whether it is genuine or not. I see this is God purging and pruning what is already saving faith.

I believe there is a tendency for Pastors today to lean toward non-clarity on this issue because of the effects of LS in the church. For example, for Jack uses testing of faith to prove saved or not. But to me that is lacking in discernment. Its to prune what is real. Testing of faith actually to my understanding only happens to believers. There is no faith to test in unbelievers. We tend to blur this line. And pastors have standing. So when they speak on issues we tend to give them the honorable consideration that they are right. But the very fact that Jack blends the testing of faith with salvation, to me, is where he is lacking in discernment. And so doing in a very well known American culture where LS is a strong and serious concern in culture. Is Jack not aware of what is going on? Is it perhaps his lack of discernment that LS is not as pervasive as it has become? He does not even seem to know LS exists. And to me, if he is going to teach that testing the genuiness of faith is to see if you are saved or not (same marketing pitch of Jmac), is actually not discerning that the testing of faith is God bringing out the best in the individual. Its a lazy way to use scripture and affirm a leadership fruit inspecting role over the congregation. They can watch, but what they should be watching for is not if you are real or not but if God is moving in your life or how the church can compliment that or challnge where unbelief might be more evident. But for church leadership to be the Bastian light or the Fruit Inspecting Crusade, that is lacking in discernment. Because it starts out using human logic (we need to inspect your fruit to see if you are saved) instead of spiritually discerning how the church can orient toward best understanding of its members.

We are going to differ here sister. I understand where you are coming from. I understand you mean well. I understand your love and care for me. I understand your concern for those in the fourm. And I understand that his, you share of your heart, in marvelous ways. Amen. But I just don't believe the best summary statement is just me needing discernment. The last 25 years of what I have been through I believe deserves more consideration than that. Maybe not necessarily from you or any one in the forum. But just in general....so yeah...just saying. I apologize for how this may sound, but: Its not that I am too trigger happy having gone through LS. I go out of my way not to be. But Hibbs uses language out of convenience in a cultural abnormality he does not seem to be aware exists. That is not me having a lack of discernment. I may have that in other places. And I may be innacurate in thinking lazy borrowing of LS language and it not be LS are two different things. But the lack of discernment to me is on Jack. The reason I say that is because Jmac did the same thing. Say one thing here, and another there. I understand there is a code of ethics among pastors. And there will be a protection of sorts among pastors. Like I can appreciate Hibbs not going after issues he would surely have had with Macarthur.

But I am not misunderstanding that faith in Christ will produce fruit. And that God will bring us through trials. I am not lacking in discernment of that. I am fine with the reality that God wants genuine faith. And He wants true believers. And He will bring us through trials. I'm not stumped that God does that. I am not lacking in discernment that God does that. I am saying that for Jack to lazily borrow LS language (causing some to think he might be LS...included google AI) is Jack's problem. Not mine. And that is not to say I don't have to work on where it is mine. Will Jack work on his? Like I said, I'll just ask him. Blessings.

 

[GLC11]

I know that sometimes, those of us who come from that background of legalism, still find it hard to wrestle with verses like these. Or have a hard time explaining them.

Matt 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

James 2:14-26
“
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.”

Rev 3:16

“So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.”


It can get complicated reconciling these with “by grace alone”, “ salvation only”

 

[1LoverofGod]

I understand why you would say that I lack discernment. And like I shared earlier, yes, of course its possible that when I hear certain themes in how LS abused the scriptures, it sounds the same. So yes, of course there could always be a sense where reading too much into something can occur. However, having gone through so many years of discerning, I don't believe that makes one less discerning. I can appreciate Pastor Adrian's post as you mention. Although I did actually miss it since he changed his pic...lol. So my bad. And I agree with what Pastor Adrian said. It is an inconvenient reality that those that come out of LS camps can tend to perhaps go too far the other way. I understand that. But that does not mean everyone who comes out of LS has that issue.

I take this sentiment in love. I don't take it as anectdotal. I would never rule out that I might see "too much" into something. Amen. So there is room for that. When the scripture talks about genuine faith or being tested, I'm fine with that. In LS there are not really rewards. But the way I understand God testing faith is to see the genuiness of it.

For example 1 Peter 1:6-7 the way I understand that is this: In the first century, it was understood that having wealth and success were indicators God was blessing you. Now the believing Jews are experiencing testing and trials that might suggest to them punishment in contrast. And Peter is letting them know that their faith being purified under trail is valuable and that is why things are happening. I don't see this as to prove whether it is genuine or not. I see this is God purging and pruning what is already saving faith.

I believe there is a tendency for Pastors today to lean toward non-clarity on this issue because of the effects of LS in the church. For example, for Jack uses testing of faith to prove saved or not. But to me that is lacking in discernment. Its to prune what is real. Testing of faith actually to my understanding only happens to believers. There is no faith to test in unbelievers. We tend to blur this line. And pastors have standing. So when they speak on issues we tend to give them the honorable consideration that they are right. But the very fact that Jack blends the testing of faith with salvation, to me, is where he is lacking in discernment. And so doing in a very well known American culture where LS is a strong and serious concern in culture. Is Jack not aware of what is going on? Is it perhaps his lack of discernment that LS is not as pervasive as it has become? He does not even seem to know LS exists. And to me, if he is going to teach that testing the genuiness of faith is to see if you are saved or not (same marketing pitch of Jmac), is actually not discerning that the testing of faith is God bringing out the best in the individual. Its a lazy way to use scripture and affirm a leadership fruit inspecting role over the congregation. They can watch, but what they should be watching for is not if you are real or not but if God is moving in your life or how the church can compliment that or challnge where unbelief might be more evident. But for church leadership to be the Bastian light or the Fruit Inspecting Crusade, that is lacking in discernment. Because it starts out using human logic (we need to inspect your fruit to see if you are saved) instead of spiritually discerning how the church can orient toward best understanding of its members.

We are going to differ here sister. Its not that I am too trigger happy having gone through LS. I go out of my way not to be. But Hibbs uses language out of convenience in a cultural abnormality he does not seem to be aware exists. That is not me having a lack of discernment. I may have that in other places. And I may be innacurate in thinking lazy borrowing of LS language and it not be LS are two different things. But the lack of discernment to me is on Jack. The reason I say that is because Jmac did the same thing. Say one thing here, and another there. I understand there is a code of ethics among pastors. And there will be a protection of sorts among pastors. Like I can appreciate Hibbs not going after issues he would surely have had with Macarthur.

But I am not misunderstanding that faith in Christ will produce fruit. And that God will bring us through trials. I am not lacking in discernment of that. I am fine with the reality that God wants genuine faith. And He wants true believers. And He will bring us through trials. I'm not stumped that God does that. I am not lacking in discernment that God does that. I am saying that for Jack to lazily borrow LS language (causing some to think he might be LS...included google AI) is Jack's problem. Not mine. And that is not to say I don't have to work on where it is mine. Will Jack work on his? Like I said, I'll just ask him. Blessings.

This verse of course is in reference to the time of the tribulation....
"But he who endures to the end shall be saved."
Matthew 24:13

However, it does apply for us in this time as well.
Why? Because its not impossible for someone to let trials effect them so much that they might abandon the faith, even blaming God for their trials
So how do we endure?
It takes Faith. As saved believers indwelled by the Holy Spirit, He is our Helper. Does He make trials go away? Not necessarily. His purpose is to remind us of Gods Word that gives us Hope and His Promises that boosts our faith to believe He is Faithful.
Thr Holy Spirit also convicts us when the sin nature enters our minds again reminding us of who we are in Christ as a new creation and stirs our spirit to turn away from sinful thoughts. We have free will to yield to the Spirit and listen to His convictions or ignore Him and fall into sin, but even so, we still can boldly go before the throne of God in confidence to obtain Grace because of our High Priest who advocates for us.
That said, our trials do test our faith, because in our faith we trust God to Help us get through our trials, and The Holy Spirit helps us with this because we cant get through on our own.
If we lose faith over our trials, God is merciful to lead us back to faith.
But if we choose not to and walk away from our faith, then this applies.....

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."
1 John 2:19

This is where we can know if one is saved.
A saved believer executes their faith in all circumstances believing in the God Who gave His Son to save us, this demonstrates that we are saved
Believing is the catalyst of salvation, but believing in faith.
Working out our faith in Action confirms our faith, otherwise faith without works is dead.

14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
James 2:14-16

 

[TCC]

This verse of course is in reference to the time of the tribulation....
"But he who endures to the end shall be saved."
Matthew 24:13

However, it does apply for us in this time as well.
Why? Because its not impossible for someone to let trials effect them so much that they might abandon the faith, even blaming God for their trials
So how do we endure?
It takes Faith. As saved believers indwelled by the Holy Spirit, He is our Helper. Does He make trials go away? Not necessarily. His purpose is to remind us of Gods Word that gives us Hope and His Promises that boosts our faith to believe He is Faithful.
Thr Holy Spirit also convicts us when the sin nature enters our minds again reminding us of who we are in Christ as a new creation and stirs our spirit to turn away from sinful thoughts. We have free will to yield to the Spirit and listen to His convictions or ignore Him and fall into sin, but even so, we still can boldly go before the throne of God in confidence to obtain Grace because of our High Priest who advocates for us.
That said, our trials do test our faith, because in our faith we trust God to Help us get through our trials, and The Holy Spirit helps us with this because we cant get through on our own.
If we lose faith over our trials, God is merciful to lead us back to faith.
But if we choose not to and walk away from our faith, then this applies.....

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."
1 John 2:19

This is where we can know if one is saved.
A saved believer executes their faith in all circumstances believing in the God Who gave His Son to save us, this demonstrates that we are saved
Believing is the catalyst of salvation, but believing in faith.
Working out our faith in Action confirms our faith, otherwise faith without works is dead.

14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
James 2:14-16

Thanks Rose and GLC11. I really love my forum family here. And it, for me, is a priviledge to be here. You guys are my only forum. I've tried others, but there is the sweet aroma of family in Him here. So I just want to thank you guys for putting up with me...lol..I know I can be a handful at times, but hopefully my true heart toward our forum ever blossoms true. I don't have much in response to the above. Not because I don't have ways of looking at things from very engrossed studies on all the above. It would be too much. And this is more like a passing diference on a thread more than a thesis paper on soteriology. I'd like to just clear something up first though.

It had been mentioned that there might be some tensions or concern from me regarding Calvery Chapel. That is understandable in how I phrased things. But Calvery Chapel to me is a solid bible believing denomination. And it has its set of concerns that may be similar or different from other denominations. But I just want to be clear that in no wise do I have it out for Calvery Chapel. I have a lot of concerns, yes. But for all intensions and purposes, I've made it a practice to see the good in denominations because there are concerns with pretty much any denomination. The reason I singled out CC is because I come from the reformed camp that targeted CC specifically in Strange Fire Conference. Which was a huge thing.

So my view on that is I would submit Jmac was not the bridge builder I think would have been more helpful at his level of impact. And in that sense I would have seen his views of CC strained, even performative. That does not mean I don't think there are real concerns. But then again, I would likely have far more issues with the reformed camp...lol. So I am an equal opportunity concerner. I don't know of any denomination that is not, as I shared, in some way under what I would view as Laodicean influence. So for me, that is meant to even the playing field rather than playing favorites or going on witch hunts. So I just wanted to make it as clear for now that if any one is a member of CC here, I'm like totally good with that. I don't have the beaf Jmac had with CC. Even though I come from that same world. I always wanted Jmac to be more a bridge builder. Which when COVID hit did provide some inroads for him to do that. But pound for pound I see the church at large in general in quite a mess. And there by the grace go I or any of us. Amen. I think that is a healthy place to start. And in case it does not come accorss as such, just wanted to clarify.

. . . . .

As for a handful of verses and their meanings. So here is my cheat sheet:

Matt 7:21-23 -- The ironic weight here is on LS believers. "Didn't I..." Conversly, "When did I..." Matt 25:37-39

James 2:14=26 -- 1st century very early account -- Jews needed to still be pried lose from their "We are the chosen" motif...and grow up in grace

Rev 3:16 -- Spewing out of mouth in my estimation is not losing salvation, but losing their church and witness...AND, discipline

Matt 24:13 -- Tribulation with focus on v.31 as "the end." In Rev it escalates in God's ownership over the earth realm. Fully SAVED = Jews gathered for the wheat barn (1,000 year reign) -- the ultimate "expression" of salvation...to be fully saved (Matt 13:24-30). Many will not make it till the end. Many will die...Rev 20:4

1 John 2:19 -- Taken in context, I have found the best way to discern 1 John is in relation to there being overriden by Gnostics. Understand what they taught is a master key puzzle piece to see John's theological silloutte. In this instance, the Gnostics did not stay with the church. Today I don't believe it has the same weight. Many leave the church because of bad experiences and they are immature. They may be saved. They may not be saved. But context is king in 1 John for a wide host of reasons I believe.

Revisit Jame 2:14-26 -- After much deep and open research, I do not see this section as a salvific issue. This is likely one of the earliest letters written when Judiasm was still trying to discern how to transition. "We are chosen." Might have had them think they did not need to be about anything. This book, to me, established what living faith in Christ looks like in contrast to Jewish sentiment from their fathers of priviledge. Being a very early book meant the church would need to see the difference from Judiasm. We use it contemporaily as saved/not-saved. But the best I have been able to tell honestly (after like looking at some many sides) is this is a portrait of Christ's desired fruit in a believer. And it needed to be stated in writing. Just like 1 John, because if 1 John in the 90s was not written, historians would have more a claim on Christianity coming from gnosticism. But 1 John being written so late in the century affirms Christianity was very different. James, to me is the other book end. The early capture of: "What it means to believe in Christ is not WE ARE THE CHOSEN of Israel like we had been thinking. It is not shown in heritage, lineage, or priviledge, it is shown as a living love through you. And that distinction needed to be made known early on.

. . . . .

We may differ in how we approach these verses. Some are more of the Arminian belief, some of us of the Reformed, and some of us just somewhere on the outskirts of all of that. Some believe we can lose salvation. Some think we cannot. Some don't know. Some say we can't lost it but we can forfit it. Me? I believe this:

OSAS. Once you become a new creation you pass from death to life and have eternal life sealed by the Holy Spirit. There is nothing you can to undo being a new creation. But you can sin up a storm and lose massive wealth eternally. We tend to not say that or lean to crutches of LS to keep the saints in line. But what should keep the saints in line is the truth and His spirit. Not doctrines of men. Or how they see they need to state things for temporal effec5. Sometimes regardless how well a leader articulates or not, church discipline takes place. Then that becomes more of an issue for all the church to honor the process. For it is a biblical one. And no leader is perfect. Best to go with imperfection in honor of what God's intention for purity of the church is than crticize leadership.

That is not what I meant to do with Jack. This is a family forum. We have different views. I had some concerns with Jack, and just stating them out of family related discussional concern. We have had some pretty beautiful posts cometh out of all of this, amen. If I am at Jack's church I may not agree with everything, but while I am there if they would have cause to discipline me, I would understand. I would go with it. Fortunately lol...that is not the case. I doubt I will be able to ask Jack personally. But I would like to get how his church or some elders there are thinking on this. Thanks to all my forum family for such a rich and deep heart in him. This level of rappart and care is the supernatural. And is what I believe can happen when new creations interact with one another. Amen. Blessings.

 

[GLC11]

This level of rappart and care is the supernatural. And is what I believe can happen when new creations interact with one another. Amen. Blessings.

AMEN!

 

[GLC11]

I find myself thinking way too deeply on this conversation today.

What about how there are many critics of altar calls on the scale of what Greg Laurie and Billy Graham do?

They think it’s not really sharing the gospel and you are setting people up for false conversions.

Greg argues that he is casting a wide net and even if only 10% are true Christians, it’s a win.

Aren’t critics of large event altar calls behaving the same as a person that believes in LS? Casting doubt because there may not be “real fruit”?

 

[GLC11]

What is the best way to explain this?

Lordship Salvation teaches that genuine faith in Christ includes repentance and submission to Him as Lord, and this will result in a life of obedience. Critics counter that this confuses salvation with discipleship and risks turning grace into legalism.

Salvation comes by making the true decision that you acknowledge Jesus died for your sins, he really rose from the dead and he did this so we can get to heaven. It’s a free gift and you just need to accept it to go to heaven


If one continues to not repent and while they truly believe they are saved, they just continue to sin and don’t seem to show sorrow , are we saying “that person is still going to heaven but will not have rewards?”

Or?

 

[Greg]

GLC11, I really like your last two posts immediately above. Lots to think on.

I guess where I'd call it is it's not for me to judge, know, or even guess. Squarely God's province, and I think he'll be much better at it than any fruit inspector/fault finder or say a prayer and who cares about sinning advocate could ever be. To the extent possible, I want whatever comes out of my heart to be as right as possible, especially where it regards others. And I fail at that every single day. But I do know how Jesus felt about hypocrites.

Maybe that's over simplification or a cop out, but for me increasingly it's that simple.

 

[GLC11]

GLC11, I really like your last two posts immediately above. Lots to think on.

I guess where I'd call it is it's not for me to judge, know, or even guess. Squarely God's province, and I think he'll be much better at it than any fruit inspector/fault finder or say a prayer and who cares about sinning advocate could ever be. To the extent possible, I want whatever comes out of my heart to be as right as possible, especially where it regards others. And I fail at that every single day. But I do know how Jesus felt about hypocrites.

Maybe that's over simplification or a cop out, but for me increasingly it's that simple.

I think you are right. It is that simple. And to try to overthink and complicate it isn’t what God asked us to do. Yes, be bereans, but stop trying to overthink and analyze how one becomes saved. It really is simple. And fight the temptation to judge others on “how Christian they act”. Focus on your own actions as a means for becoming a disciple.

I hope my overthinking self can knock it off!

I so love Jack Hibbs! I don’t think he preaches Lordship salvation, but hey, look at me. I bring up these questions and I waiver on sounding like a Calvinist myself .

Nobody can be absolutely perfect about their speech every day.

Precise Hermeneutics is so important for interpretation, but not everyone can always be “on their game” 24/7.

 

[Tall Timbers]

What about how there are many critics of altar calls on the scale of what Greg Laurie and Billy Graham do?

I wish my church did alter calls...

 

[Greg]

I think you are right. It is that simple. And to try to overthink and complicate it isn’t what God asked us to do. Yes, be bereans, but stop trying to overthink and analyze how one becomes saved. It really is simple. And fight the temptation to judge others on “how Christian they act”. Focus on your own actions as a means for becoming a disciple.

I hope my overthinking self can knock it off!

I so love Jack Hibbs! I don’t think he preaches Lordship salvation, but hey, look at me. I bring up these questions and I waiver on sounding like a Calvinist myself .

Nobody can be absolutely perfect about their speech every day.

Precise Hermeneutics is so important for interpretation, but not everyone can always be “on their game” 24/7.

I wasn't getting that vibe from your thoughts at all, but the discussion when LS comes up usually goes to one side or the other. Maybe less so here where we mostly all know each other than in discussion in other contexts.

Absolutely agree on Jack -- he's great. Andy Woods is still my favorite for going really deep, but Jack's way up there too.

 

[GLC11]

I wasn't getting that vibe from your thoughts at all, but the discussion when LS comes up usually goes to one side or the other. Maybe less so here where we mostly all know each other than in discussion in other contexts.

Absolutely agree on Jack -- he's great. Andy Woods is still my favorite for going really deep, but Jack's way up there too.

I do love Andy too! Enjoy his weekly Friday Pastor’s Perspective.

I do not support Lordship Salvation, but I was kind of laughing at my posts today because it seems like all those old Calvinist teachings I grew up on sometimes cause me to fumble and grapple with questions, and I have to get my “balance” back

 

[Amethyst]

Andy Woods doesn’t have even a hint of LS

He believes Demas (deserted Paul for the world) was saved
and also all the fallen Israelites that God struck down in the wilderness for their excessive disobedience.

 

[Cheeky200386]

When I was a new Believer, I felt like a brand new person. The term born again really fits. In faith we believe through God's grace, his wonderful eternal gift to us.

I felt like a brand new person though... one day while reading parts of the Bible for the first time, when I read "and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", I began to understand why I felt like a new person. The feeling itself isn't that important as far as it goes, but having the Comforter is real confirmation of God's promise(s).

To this day, decades later, whenever I think to thank the Holy Spirirt, I get a little choked up. I couldn't imagine living in this world without the Comforter.

Me too!! I will never forget how I felt like a fog had lifted over my eyes. I was filled with so much joy and just felt different. It was hard to explain at first when I was telling my siblings all the good news that I learned Jesus is real and the Bible is true!! It was like I found out a secret Treasure for the first time. I have never felt the same since putting my faith in trust in Jesus Christ for dying for my sins. That is purely feelings based and didn't help when I instantly felt in the trap of Calvinism from online searching.

After a year of struggle and despair of trying to figure out if I was the elect and how many sins were too many to disqualify me, I kept studying scripture and found solid Pastors. Then I was comforted in knowing that I understood and accepted the Gospel message, which is scriptures based.

The feeling different was crazy and will always stand out to me. I always get chocked up when I think about how close I was to going to Hell, how God saved me, and what Jesus did for me. I'm even getting teary writing this now. God is too good to me.

 

[Cheeky200386]

Andy Woods doesn’t have even a hint of LS

He believes Demas (deserted Paul for the world) was saved
and also all the fallen Israelites that God struck down in the wilderness for their excessive disobedience.

Andy Woods is my favorite Pastor who draws out the book nerd in me. I could watch his videos for hours and I used to before children.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

One more question:
what is the best way to explain “once saved always saved”? Yet not let people feel that is a free pass to keep sinning?


And I got very riveted by the discussion here. I am so pleased that everyone made nice and are discussing it civil. This is our safe family here! I am so astounded by the depth of knowledge in this community. Satan would surely love to get us fighting.

and on the not fighting.


Saving faith is a gift from The Holy Ghost, which can be accepted or refused (free will), otherwise it would be irresistible grace, as in Calvinism.

Once saved, always saved (OSAS). As I understand OSAS, once a person is saved through saving faith (NO WORKS) (faith alone in Christ alone, in accordance with Scripture alone, by the grace of God alone, to the glory of God alone), God will not let the person go, that the person is still saved, no matter what. Otherwise Salvation would be faith plus works. This is what virtually everyone on the board believes.

Sin after Salvation. People still have free will, and still have a sin nature, so we still sin. We try not to sin because of the Holy Ghost working inside us, but we still have free will.

When I was a little girl, my Maternal Grandmother used to ask me, "Wouldn't it be terrible if Jesus came back right now and found [whatever my latest transgression(s) was/were]?" This is what I needed at the time, along with getting scared about Hell with a very graphic description of the place and what happens after death to non-believers and contrasting with believers. Now that I know more, I know Jesus already knew what I was doing, had done, and would do, even before I did it

If someone is sinning, then the process in Matthew 18 (Church discipline), which starts with one person going to the sinner privately, etc. When the sinner is a child, it's a very easy situation because the Parent(s) deal with it both as a fellow Christian and as the Earthly authority, as appointed by God. It may or may not be quite as simple when it is the wife, depending on whom she has offended.




*Some Christians, like the Lutherans, believe that free will also allows a person to knowingly and deliberately renounce his or her faith (give the gift of Salvation back) and become unsaved because otherwise no true free will and it would be a form of irresistible grace, as in Calvinism. This renouncing of faith does not include under duress like torture, does not include losing it by sinning, and does not include having God, the devil, or any person take it away involuntarily. The person can also later choose to re-accept the gift of saving faith. Those, who believe OSAS, say that a person, who deliberately renounces faith (other than under duress, like torture) wasn't saved in the first place.

**Some Christians believe that once saved, a Christian doesn't ever sin again. I have no explanation for this.


15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Matthew 18:15-17, KJV

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6, KJV

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Ephesians 6:1-4, KJV

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Ephesians 5:19-33, KJV

 

[dwb]

I watched part of a Candace Owens (yes, I know) podcast tonight where she is now reporting her sources are telling her Tyler Robinson says he didn't shoot Charlie Kirk. That the story about the father seeing his son on video and talking him in to turning himself in is false. According to Candace, a family friend saw the video and thought it was Tyler, and the friend then contacted the father. She reported that Tyler seemed "bewildered" when asked if he shot Charlie Kirk, and also that he has never set foot on that campus.

I don't have a link because it was included on a blog site. Here is a link with part of the story.

Candace Owens comes up with new theory on Charlie Kirk, says Tyler Robinson has been framed, everything is a lie - The Times of India

US News: Candace Owens has come up with a new conspiracy theory claiming that she now has sources confirming that Tyler Robinson was framed and he was not the .

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Who knows, the whole thing was fishy from the beginning and nothing would surprise me.

 

[Tall Timbers]

She reported that Tyler seemed "bewildered" when asked if he shot Charlie Kirk, and also that he has never set foot on that campus.

They have physical evidence, as well as video. I don't think there's a mistake.

 

[Cheeky200386]

They have physical evidence, as well as video. I don't think there's a mistake.

I'm not buying the Candace conspiracy holes she does down. She's gone off the deep end a while ago, sadly.

 

[Tall Timbers]

I'm not buying the Candace conspiracy holes she does down. She's gone off the deep end a while ago, sadly.

That seems to be the case. Not sure how she manages to have any audience.