Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University.

[GLC11]

and on the not fighting.


Saving faith is a gift from The Holy Ghost, which can be accepted or refused (free will), otherwise it would be irresistible grace, as in Calvinism.

Once saved, always saved (OSAS). As I understand OSAS, once a person is saved through saving faith (NO WORKS) (faith alone in Christ alone, in accordance with Scripture alone, by the grace of God alone, to the glory of God alone), God will not let the person go, that the person is still saved, no matter what. Otherwise Salvation would be faith plus works. This is what virtually everyone on the board believes.

Sin after Salvation. People still have free will, and still have a sin nature, so we still sin. We try not to sin because of the Holy Ghost working inside us, but we still have free will.

When I was a little girl, my Maternal Grandmother used to ask me, "Wouldn't it be terrible if Jesus came back right now and found [whatever my latest transgression(s) was/were]?" This is what I needed at the time, along with getting scared about Hell with a very graphic description of the place and what happens after death to non-believers and contrasting with believers. Now that I know more, I know Jesus already knew what I was doing, had done, and would do, even before I did it

If someone is sinning, then the process in Matthew 18 (Church discipline), which starts with one person going to the sinner privately, etc. When the sinner is a child, it's a very easy situation because the Parent(s) deal with it both as a fellow Christian and as the Earthly authority, as appointed by God. It may or may not be quite as simple when it is the wife, depending on whom she has offended.




*Some Christians, like the Lutherans, believe that free will also allows a person to knowingly and deliberately renounce his or her faith (give the gift of Salvation back) and become unsaved because otherwise no true free will and it would be a form of irresistible grace, as in Calvinism. This renouncing of faith does not include under duress like torture, does not include losing it by sinning, and does not include having God, the devil, or any person take it away involuntarily. The person can also later choose to re-accept the gift of saving faith. Those, who believe OSAS, say that a person, who deliberately renounces faith (other than under duress, like torture) wasn't saved in the first place.

**Some Christians believe that once saved, a Christian doesn't ever sin again. I have no explanation for this.


15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Matthew 18:15-17, KJV

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6, KJV

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Ephesians 6:1-4, KJV

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Ephesians 5:19-33, KJV

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GLC11]

I'm not buying the Candace conspiracy holes she does down. She's gone off the deep end a while ago, sadly.

She has gone off the deep end terribly, but she is emboldened because her daily views of her live stream are growing exponentially. It’s really scary because I am in a conservative group online. It’s mostly related to conservative politics, all women, but the majority are Christian. However, there is a large portion of Catholics, and it seems like they are the ones who argue with everyone and want to side with Candace on this topic about Charlie. Candace is Catholic and spread false lies that “Charlie was converting to Catholicism” and now there is a lot of arguing in this group with women going toe to toe about Protestant vs Catholic views. AND heated endless debates about “Israel today” not being the “Israel in the Bible”, that dispensationalism just was born in the 1900’s, that the Rockefellers created the current Israel…. It goes on and on and there are 20k women in this group. The arguing almost always seems to be driven by what Candace is spewing and it never was that way before. It’s a Facebook group for women who follow a TPUSA podcaster, and has always been respectful!

I watched a conservative podcaster say how in the conservative podcast world, they are all aware that Candace has recently recruited 25% of the conservative podcast audience and it’s astounding how many believe her.

Candace always speaks with bold confidence to make people think she can’t possibly be lying. She is wildly entertaining and has everyone hooked. She asks questions, ignores her own gaps, demands answers like she is some authority… and produces nothing! Then says “I never said that”

She has a team that makes 30 second sound bite reels of her spreading her anti semitism and crazy claims about the Charlie assassination. These get lots of views on TikTok and Instagram and she really has single handedly played a large role in getting the young demographics to turn on Israel.

So you have people wondering if she is being paid by Islamists, or even liberals because she has recently started going after Trump (because of us shooting at Iran) and now she has her followers convinced that Trump is “owned by Bibi” and he is wasting US dollars on Israel.

It’s like, lady, do you want to hand the 2028 election right back to the dems? She is doing a lot of damage within the young conservative movement.

Sorry for my rant, Candace gets me steamed. I can’t stand that she is doing this to Charlie’s wife and the TPUSA staff.

I have a friend who I have known for 15 years and we can’t even talk right now because anti-semitism has literally become her entire personalty.

Listen to how awful Candace sounds here tonight on this short reel her team posted.

And the comments show how her supporters love her!

CANDACE on Instagram: "My Message to Turning Point USA."

Candace Owens confronts Turning Point USA executives about Charlie Kirk's departure from the pro-Israel cause, allegations of bullying by Jewish donors, and a potential motive for his death.

www.instagram.com

 

[TCC]

What is the best way to explain this?

Lordship Salvation teaches that genuine faith in Christ includes repentance and submission to Him as Lord, and this will result in a life of obedience. Critics counter that this confuses salvation with discipleship and risks turning grace into legalism.

Salvation comes by making the true decision that you acknowledge Jesus died for your sins, he really rose from the dead and he did this so we can get to heaven. It’s a free gift and you just need to accept it to go to heaven


If one continues to not repent and while they truly believe they are saved, they just continue to sin and don’t seem to show sorrow , are we saying “that person is still going to heaven but will not have rewards?”

Or?

1 Cor 11

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy way, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a person must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For the one who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not properly recognize the body.

 

[1LoverofGod]

I know that sometimes, those of us who come from that background of legalism, still find it hard to wrestle with verses like these. Or have a hard time explaining them.

Matt 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

James 2:14-26
“
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.”

Rev 3:16

“So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.”


It can get complicated reconciling these with “by grace alone”, “ salvation only”

When I used the James chapter 2 verses in my post it was not used as a bases for what it takes to be saved. These verses apply to the believer after salvation. Its referring to working out salvation which comes in the process of sanctification that begins when you are born again.
I used it to go with the context of what I was saying in post 483 about enduring trials and how it takes faith to endure. If someone can let trials cause them to abandon the faith they had that saved them and never feels led to return to that faith, then one could question whether that person was ever saved. That is apostasy.
That would fall under the unforgivable sin, sinning against the Holy Spirit by rejecting Jesus.
Earlier up thread I also used the verse......

"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."
2 Corinthians 13:5

This verse encourages us to examine our faith to be sure we are saved.
Sometimes someone might think they are saved but may not be. When we are saved the fruits of Jesus in us will be evident, so much so even unbelievers should be able to see the light of Jesus in us because we are working out our salvation, not that we used works to save us.

I lack good communication skills and often what I am trying to say might be misunderstood. I apologize for any confusion..

 

[1LoverofGod]

**I need to say honestly I have not been engaging in a fight here nor trying to start one. I have just tried to do what I thought a Christian should do, make a defense for our brethren, and make a defense for the apologetics.
I have tried to be gracious about it, but sometimes in reading text its hard to know what the heart or mindset of anyone who makes a text.
Im not the kind of person who would treat someone unkind. My own family who has treated me unkindly hasn't ever gotten unkindness from me. I dont like fighting. I dont even like debating. I dont often correct anyone on anything. I wasnt picking on someone at all
I think it was an error on my part to get myself in this discussion that isnt even about the death of Charlie Kirk. I was trying to explain why something was wrong but what my intentions were only makes me look like Im something Im not. I shouldn't have ever gone there with this.
I apologize to TCC and anyone I have unintentionally offended

 

[Greg]

Rose, I don't think you offended anyone and there's nothing wrong with what you wrote. It resulted in a good discussion.

 

[TCC]

**I need to say honestly I have not been engaging in a fight here nor trying to start one. I have just tried to do what I thought a Christian should do, make a defense for our brethren, and make a defense for the apologetics.
I have tried to be gracious about it, but sometimes in reading text its hard to know what the heart or mindset of anyone who makes a text.
Im not the kind of person who would treat someone unkind. My own family who has treated me unkindly hasn't ever gotten unkindness from me. I dont like fighting. I dont even like debating. I dont often correct anyone on anything. I wasnt picking on someone at all
I think it was an error on my part to get myself in this discussion that isnt even about the death of Charlie Kirk. I was trying to explain why something was wrong but what my intentions were only makes me look like Im something Im not. I shouldn't have ever gone there with this.
I apologize to TCC and anyone I have unintentionally offended

Thanks Rose. You are a very precious sister dear lady. You are super loved in our community, and yes, by me too. Your convictions make us think. There have been a few posts in this thread that have truly been touched by the level of discussion that can be had by family in His love. And that is something in part you helped to share with the forum. There are your convictions, and there are also details that as we discuss them, with His spirit upon our intensions (as honest but human as they may at times be), because of our genuine care for one another (even though we may not always see the same) can provide a wealth of discussion not often common (of which has in a few places been noted in the open here in this thread). And that quality level of consideration would not be so easily offered (or ever offered) if it were not for precious hearts like yours to bring your God honest convictions to the family table. With care, and our desire to yield to His helping us to navigate our own hearts as well as being as considerate as we may be before others, He tends to reward our love, our care, and our willingness to share our hearts with one another. As far as we might. And that is super huge of you dear sister to be such a rich and lovely member of our forum family. There are so many awesome qualities about you dear sister that the Lord most certainly uses here. I'm blessed and even privileged to honestly search my heart before Him. Just one of the things you bring to our humble home. Thank you for your kind gesture.

I never mean to thrpe a monkey wrench into our fellowship. But at time it might seem important from time to time to perhaps state things in a way that is a little left or right of center that might help general consideration and/or provide context for a little bit of side discussion along the way. I too need to be more aware of how that might come across. And of course apologize as well for where it might have caused a sense of stir in your or others. But in light of how helpful for some here this discussion might have unfolded (for a number of reason--and perhaps some as well not so stilted on one side of the issue or the other...but maybe touch lives in ways not so related but used by God for His family anyways. Thanks for your gracious heart in him dear sister. Blessings.

 

[Cheeky200386]

She has gone off the deep end terribly, but she is emboldened because her daily views of her live stream are growing exponentially. It’s really scary because I am in a conservative group online. It’s mostly related to conservative politics, all women, but the majority are Christian. However, there is a large portion of Catholics, and it seems like they are the ones who argue with everyone and want to side with Candace on this topic about Charlie. Candace is Catholic and spread false lies that “Charlie was converting to Catholicism” and now there is a lot of arguing in this group with women going toe to toe about Protestant vs Catholic views. AND heated endless debates about “Israel today” not being the “Israel in the Bible”, that dispensationalism just was born in the 1900’s, that the Rockefellers created the current Israel…. It goes on and on and there are 20k women in this group. The arguing almost always seems to be driven by what Candace is spewing and it never was that way before. It’s a Facebook group for women who follow a TPUSA podcaster, and has always been respectful!

I watched a conservative podcaster say how in the conservative podcast world, they are all aware that Candace has recently recruited 25% of the conservative podcast audience and it’s astounding how many believe her.

Candace always speaks with bold confidence to make people think she can’t possibly be lying. She is wildly entertaining and has everyone hooked. She asks questions, ignores her own gaps, demands answers like she is some authority… and produces nothing! Then says “I never said that”

She has a team that makes 30 second sound bite reels of her spreading her anti semitism and crazy claims about the Charlie assassination. These get lots of views on TikTok and Instagram and she really has single handedly played a large role in getting the young demographics to turn on Israel.

So you have people wondering if she is being paid by Islamists, or even liberals because she has recently started going after Trump (because of us shooting at Iran) and now she has her followers convinced that Trump is “owned by Bibi” and he is wasting US dollars on Israel.

It’s like, lady, do you want to hand the 2028 election right back to the dems? She is doing a lot of damage within the young conservative movement.

Sorry for my rant, Candace gets me steamed. I can’t stand that she is doing this to Charlie’s wife and the TPUSA staff.

I have a friend who I have known for 15 years and we can’t even talk right now because anti-semitism has literally become her entire personalty.

Listen to how awful Candace sounds here tonight on this short reel her team posted.

And the comments show how her supporters love her!

CANDACE on Instagram: "My Message to Turning Point USA."

Candace Owens confronts Turning Point USA executives about Charlie Kirk's departure from the pro-Israel cause, allegations of bullying by Jewish donors, and a potential motive for his death.

www.instagram.com

I just wonder if she is knowingly lying to others or if she is truly self-deceived.

 

[GLC11]

Rose, I don't think you offended anyone and there's nothing wrong with what you wrote. It resulted in a good discussion.

100% agree!

 

[GLC11]

I just wonder if she is knowingly lying to others or if she is truly self-deceived.

Same
The behavior is so bizarre that it seems like she is being coerced

 

[Tall Timbers]

Same
The behavior is so bizarre that it seems like she is being coerced

Or she's got mental health issues and isn't taking her medicine. Like most talking heads, I've not been exposed to her other than to read about her. What I hear about her makes me think of Kanye West.

 

[Work4Peanuts]

Good morning friends! (Or good day, depending on where you are)

I am in the hospital recovering from surgery , so I have been reading a lot in our Forums.

First off, upward several posts, 1LoverOfGod shared a letter from Charlie to Netanyahu.

That is likely going to get some attention today from Candace and the people saying the crazy stuff about Charlie changing his views on Israel. It sounds like the letter is a true and real letter. His producer confirmed it, the NY Post did an article , but there are already people trying to spin it.

What I really want to chime in on is this other recent topic because I was so very interested.

My background in bullet points, so everyone understands where I am coming from:

- I am 56 years old and spent 52 of those years in Southern CA. Four years ago I moved to Montana.

- as a young girl, I had the seeds of salvation planted very early on from my father who was a devout attendee of John MacArthur’s church. I grew up around many MacArthur books and was gifted many more as well as his study Bible. I was taught and believed in Calvinism.

- later I married and moved from La County to South Orange County. For 8 years we attended a very legalistic, Calvinist church. The pastor is on the radio, taught classes at Masters University and hired many associate pastors who came from Masters.

-I want to try to speed this part up a little because there is a lot to say. My husband was not saved when we married, but he did attend church with me and then he suffered a full widow-maker heart attack at the age of 45, but by the grace of God, the paramedics got his heart beating and whisked him to the hospital. I was at home with our 4 kid ages 5,4,2 and 2 (twins) and got the phone call no wife ever wants to get. However, he was a true miracle! Shorty after, he became so intent on learning everything about God. He read all the Strobel books, I don’t have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Turek and Geisler and started attending Bible courses held on weeknights at our church. I will fast forward this somewhat since all of you are already well versed on the damage that Calvinism and legalism can do, but basically, my husband felt he became saved, but then spent the next 7 years doubting because of this church. He felt so convicted by the teachings about no fruit, and evidence etc. There was a time when several families left because they all were so hurt. One mom was so upset because her 13 year old gave his life to Christ and a ministry leader said “well, we just need to see if there is fruit now”

Ugh, it was awful and painful to leave a place we called a home church for 8 years, and even now, years later, I can still stay up at night recalling hurtful conversations. There were many and it also impacted many who left.

- when we left, my husband did like a 180 and had us all start going to Rick Warren’s church! The main campus where Rick himself taught. I knew in my bones that this was all prosperity gospel and it was definitely a complete flip from where we were. We went for about 3 years, but NOT involved really. Just for the weekend message. I was homeschooling my kids through a Christian campus and had great fellowship and Bible study options. I started listening online to both Jack Hibbs and John Randall during Covid and then when they opened their churches, started to attend both of those churches off and on. I was closer to Randall’s Calvary Chapel but sometimes would drive to Chino to see Hibbs on his campus too.

-In 2020 I told my dad that I profusely disagree with Calvinism (interesting conversation). He and I just both strongly disagree on that topic, but I don’t doubt his salvation.

We are attending another Calvary Chapel in Montana and I listen to Hibbs online all the time too.

I am praying so hard now because I feel my husband is saved but also has doubts even now because of what he went through.

I know at that other forum, we could never mention MacArthur ever or …. Well, you know. I do have to say though, while I disagreed on Calvinism, I do still have some of his books and will occasionally listen to some of his messages on other topics. Like End Times (there! I said it!)

I know not every pastor is going to always be 100% correct, but I feel that since I know better about Calvinism, I can still safely benefit from some of MacArthur’s teachings. It’s not like he is Catholic or Mormon

This all said, I have a basic question for all of you.

How do we feel is the best way to explain how to know if you are saved?

One more question:
what is the best way to explain “once saved always saved”? Yet not let people feel that is a free pass to keep sinning?

Sorry for typos
I am in a dark hospital room typing on my phone. I have been up all night reading about Trump and Netanyahu and everything that took place yesterday with their announcements, still watching in shock and horror how conservatives are turning antisemitic (thank you Candace and Tucker).

Watching Catholics and Protestants fighting feverishly online right now about whose religion is correct (all spurred on by Candace once again . Saying “Charlie was converting to Catholicism and I told him he was too smart to be a Protestant”)

And I got very riveted by the discussion here. I am so pleased that everyone made nice and are discussing it civil. This is our safe family here! I am so astounded by the depth of knowledge in this community. Satan would surely love to get us fighting.

1 John 5:13
This is how we know. It is that simple. (Romans 10:9-10)

Romans 8:16
The Spirit confirms our salvation.

John 10:28
OSAS

Ephesians 2:8
We are saved by grace through faith. It is God's grace and it is a gift.

Romans 6 (The whole chapter)
This is how we react to God's free gift and the grace that we've been given, and why we don't freely sin just because we are given grace.

1 John 1:9
What we are to do when we do sin.

John 15:5
Being rooted in Jesus is how we produce fruit. It is His work.

James 2:17-18
Works are an evidence that we have a living faith, likewise, lack of works is evidence of a dead faith. But works do not save us.

 

[Amethyst]

Or she's got mental health issues and isn't taking her medicine.

I think a case could be made for people in history going 'mad' after embracing rabid Jew-hate.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

When I used the James chapter 2 verses in my post it was not used as a bases for what it takes to be saved. These verses apply to the believer after salvation. Its referring to working out salvation which comes in the process of sanctification that begins when you are born again.
I used it to go with the context of what I was saying in post 483 about enduring trials and how it takes faith to endure. If someone can let trials cause them to abandon the faith they had that saved them and never feels led to return to that faith, then one could question whether that person was ever saved. That is apostasy.
That would fall under the unforgivable sin, sinning against the Holy Spirit by rejecting Jesus.
Earlier up thread I also used the verse......

"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."
2 Corinthians 13:5

This verse encourages us to examine our faith to be sure we are saved.
Sometimes someone might think they are saved but may not be. When we are saved the fruits of Jesus in us will be evident, so much so even unbelievers should be able to see the light of Jesus in us because we are working out our salvation, not that we used works to save us.

I lack good communication skills and often what I am trying to say might be misunderstood. I apologize for any confusion..

The James 2 verses mirror what is said in Ephesians 2, especially verse 10.


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:4-10, KJV

 

[Tall Timbers]

I reckon this thread has run its course.