That sounds like something most sound Christians would want. I don't see much of a connection connection to NAR goals/beliefs in that though.
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Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University.
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That sounds like something most sound Christians would want. I don't see much of a connection connection to NAR goals/beliefs in that though.
1LoverofGod
Well-known
Not much. And there is no connection with NAR and wanting to be Involved politically. Solid bible teachers like Jack Hibbs is being connected to NAR because he believes in being involved in politics.
Jan Markell is being connected to NAR because of her association with Michelle Bachman who was a US Senator and is a Christian still speaks out against a lawless political leadership.
Yet while Jan is labeled NAR she is one of the most outspoken Against NAR.
Like I said no one has to agree with what I say. I pay close attention to what is said out there and I have listened to some of those named in this thread as being NAR supporters and its not true
LightOfMyLife
Well-known
I
agree Christians need to take a stand for Godliness in schools on what children are being taught, and other important issues in our country. Our problem is we are fighting the forces of evil between light and darkness or Christians and unbelievers. It is a Spiritual/spiritual battle. 
1LoverofGod
Well-known
We should definitely avoid linking arms with false religion.
I do have to mention something.
Accuracy is important to have good discernment.
I have seen multiple times the same mention of the Ecumenical movement, especially in reference to TPUSA.
The brief list mentioned in the quote is not completely accurate
I am Not defending false religion here but I do believe accuracy in important to be sure we have all the facts right.
In the brief list mentioned and has been mentioned in other quotes is that JW are part of this Eucumenical movement and has been mentioned when talking about TPUSA.
I was in that cult of JW for 11 years. I know their beliefs. They are absolutely opposed to being part of anything having to do with politics or patriotism. The JW would never be involved in TPUSA or anything political because they dont believe in voting or serving in the military
I bring this up only because things are being said or quoted out there that do not have all the facts straight. This is why it is disturbing to see the names of Pastors used as promoting NAR without presenting all the facts.
I think we ought to be "wise as serpents but gentle as doves".
Have discernment but dont be so quick to judge.
Im not saying you are judging anyone but its an application we should all have especially within the body of Christ where we are admonished to not have divisions.
LightOfMyLife
Well-known
Scripture does tell us to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.
2 Timothy 4:2
1LoverofGod
Well-known
That is true. We should not be unevenly yoked either. Im not defending the way TPUSA was organized. But what I am defending is how we should know all the facts about a Christian's faith and relationship with Jesus before doubting it over "guilt by association".Scripture does tell us to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.
I think its sad how this has become a hot topic After Charlie's death when it wasnt so much a widespread focus on when he was alive
LightOfMyLife
Well-known
Erika Kirk's 1st podcast is with Megyn Kelly, and there is a problem with this. She is a Catholic which is a false teaching church. www.gotquestions.org/catholicism.html
TCC
Well-known
Wow. Thanks for the lovely reply Steph. You captured the sense extremely well. And posted it in a very poetic, amusing, and most of all succinct way
You and I have shared heritage of the lengthy post syndrome. The way you summed it up dear sister was marvelous. And, again, helpful iron to sharpen in saying more with not so much. Amen. Again, please post wherever the Lord leads your heart. For we are all different parts of the body and where and how we express even. Because of my alternative views, it has become custom for me to entertain both the concerns of ecumenicalism and affections going awry (I.e. even the Luciferian Light theory) and the more biblically Israeli baked in one too simultanously. But its just that that last one is not as focused on today because of how off the charts everything else is getting. I believe both watching the darker concerns unfolding along with the Israeli baked in theme is healthy. I just don't think it gets much equal time in evangelicalsim. And although this forum size would not make it equal time for me posting about it. At least it is said I reckon somewhere. lol.Again, thanks so much Steph for your gracious and extremely insightful heart dear sister. It is so wonderful really to have you in our forum family here. And I am excited to see where the Lord moves your heart to post. Because the things you see are very real and helpful in edifying the body (from seeing this super robustly so in our JDF days).
Blessings.
Cheeky200386
Well-known
Thank you so much for posting this! It’s unfortunate that any warnings regarding his organization and what he has said in the past is being shut down as being wrong, “accusing the bethren”, being judgemental, etc…
It’s quite upsetting and no wonder people don’t speak up. Eventually I wonder, “What’s the point?!”
TCC
Well-known
Ok so just for fun, lol, I am going to do something creative here. But before I do, I sincerely adore you dear sister. And greatly appreciate your sharing your thoughts. As had been the case back in the JDF days, I've always been blessed to be your friend when some views upon your takes get what I would see as unecessary heat. As I get closer to my creative here, I would use something in the secular realm to make my point. Whenever you have posted of concern with certain known in the media types, I take that with where you are coming from. Having come, myself, from a church that was high octane wonky off the charts on a way fringe orthopraxy kick and yet cared deeply for that body of believers (even its teachers), I have some sense of understanding that there will be different ways to see individuals in the media. And I have always thought you brought excellent perspective dear sister where and when you did bring up certain media known types. Now for the secular leading to the creative...Getting a sense to communicate the following:
The tragedy of Charlie Kirk was horrific and senseless to which we seem to all agree with here on this forum.
However, we are not all likely to agree with how his religious beliefs and affiliations are viewed. The varying comments attest to that.
That said , my personal conviction is that Charlie and his beliefs if not initially, have over time been influenced by the New Apostolic Reformation which involves the ideologies of taking dominion over the 7 spheres which is what the 7 Mountain mandate and Kingdom Now proponents seek to do… the end goal being to Christianize all areas and usher in the return of Christ in this “ Golden Age “.
That said , not everyone at his memorial was of the NAR crowd or their philosophies.
However , the undertones of the whole event was absolutely permeated with an ecumenical message to unify for a common cause … to pick up and fight where Charlie left off …. While that in some respects is admirable and understandable as we are told to be salt and light against evil, there is a spirit behind this goal that goes deeper than just being salt and light. What comes across as fighting to defend conservative / moral values is a surface deception. It’s a case of what appears is not as it seems.
In no way is my knowledge exhausted on this subject but a lot of study and research went in to why I personally think what I do.
If anything, the fact that there are some like Spencer, and a few others expressing the same insights and views on the matter has added some validity to what I’ve
been “ shouting “ for a while now. And it is out of love and honest concern for my brothers and sisters in Christ , that I share and continue to speak up about it.
Again , I’d strongly suggest to check out Spencer Smith’s series on Charlie and the NAR/ ecumenism. Each is about 15 minutes and although he , just as any of us is not the all knowing of everything, he explains specifically what and why there should be cause for concern.
In the past , I have been in a predicament where , many did not like my take on this same topic and were offended at naming names and going against the grain of the majority and it became a burden that led me to reevaluate my participation.
The bottom line is this… there is agreeing to disagree , there is respecting differing opinions, and there is also having a willingness to be challenged if there is disagreement. That does not mean one must compromise their personal views and convictions of course, but that sharing them is how we grow and mature when there’s a differing of opinions.
Regarding this issue and specifically the overhanging NAR influence and involvement involved , it’s more a reminder to do as scripture commands and test the spirits , to not idolize any man , to not believe just because but study for yourself … because deception is a thing and we are certainly in the days Jesus first and foremost AND REPEATEDLY, warned us to be careful of allowing that to happen.
@TCC … dearest Teren, … I know your stance on the role of the NAR and how we differ on some of it, but I still love you
THE SECULAR
Its like the Robert E. Lee statue...lol. The left is interesting in drowning out our history. The right open to consider our failings as a nation. But for better or for worse, Robert E. Lee is a part of American history. I'm sure there are some good stories on him. We know him for the sad aspects of the confederacy. But I believe that statue is being restored in America. For the purpose of being ok with telling the truth about our past. So I would see that similarly to pointing out the good the bad and the ugly of those known in the media. I also think it is kind and wise of you dear sister to consider how you go about perhaps so doing. As for any of us...amen.
THE CREATIVE
Stephanie Said: The bottom line is this… there is agreeing to disagree , there is respecting differing opinions, and there is also having a willingness to be challenged if there is disagreement. That does not mean one must compromise their personal views and convictions of course, but that sharing them is how we grow and mature when there’s a differing of opinions.
Charlie Kirk could have meant a lot things. And I am sure he did. Some good, some bad. And it is a blessing that the gospel got out like that to the world. I was never much of a Kirk follower. So when I saw some footage more about what he was all about (with some consideration), I was amazed how large the idea of just taking concerns to the collegiate town square has become. Certainly this was bigger than Ben Shapiros approach. It makes sense to take it to the universities as this is where minds are formed as well as heavily indoctrinated. So I know the gospel was shared there but I never got to see those videos yet. What I did notice though (as Erika pointed out: No violent retaliation) was the awesome quality of what you just shared that I highlighted here Steph. Because that is, to me, the core of what else helpfully resounded at from the memorial. In the USA, we know the challenges of sharing opinions. In much of the world, sharing opinions is greatly covetted. But like in a general revelation like way, the sentiment of the US Constitution where it affirms our rights come from our creator, what was something of note significant to me was that the art and care of taking conversation the masses is and should be a good thing. Not that that will topple any foreign governments. But the value, essence, and true to human nature (as we have been created in God) that is honored by free speech (but even more--the care to engage in conversation where we may disagree --even in like a forum like this one)...wow...that whole enchilada seemed to be on the worldwide plate for expose' -- and whatever else it was...I am impressed, and blessed that it was about that. Amen. Blessings.
Sometimes people join causes without fully grasping what they are endorsing. Even when they seem to understand, they might not fully get why a cause or a group have departed from the Bible. Because deception is deceptive.
I was part of an NAR church before it even got that name by C.Peter Wagner back in the early 90s. I was in it. I came out of it in 1998.
It was only after that experience that I began to question the teachings- why they were wrong, and why they placed such importance on infiltrating govt and power positions.
The 7 mountain mandate. I got to know how it works, why it works and how bad it is.
It infiltrates. It's drawn to politics because that is one of the 7 mountains.
Several of the preachers that Trump surrounds himself with are NAR or linked with that theology in some way. Paula White is a good example. But so is Charlie.
Paula is not a great example of a Christian teacher, yet Charlie was.
Paula preaches a false gospel of prosperity, something very different from the true gospel that Charlie taught.
That just goes to show how difficult it is. Both are NAR but one preaches for money, Word Faith heresy while the other preaches for salvation. Yet they both have a vision for their country that starts by taking control back- with the govt.
People who love their country, who want the best for their fellow human beings often fall for the ideals in the 7 mountain mandate.
I knew very little of Charlie till he died. He's my daughter's generation, a bit younger than her- he's affected a lot of young people via social media. His death was devastating to her and many like her. I started to find out more as the avalanche of information poured out.
I understand that Charlie like the rest of us is a flawed human (only he's free of that now) who loved the Lord and his country and wanted the best for the people he came in contact with.
Like every other solid Christian Charlie wanted to see people saved. He didn't exclude people, he talked to everyone who would listen, and listened to those who wanted to give him their point of view.
What he taught isn't who he is.
It's only a part of his teaching.
And what we teach as Christians is open to criticism within healthy Christian circles. Being a Berean about the teaching. That is not casting shade on the blood bought person that teaches it. It is holding up the teaching to the Bible.
There are things I passionately agree with in Charlies teachings- first being the true gospel- that Jesus died for all who believe in Him, and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and sits now at the right hand of God the Father, awaiting the moment the Father tells Him to go get us. That all who call upon Christ will be saved.
And then I also agree with his stance on free speech. That everyone has a right to speak freely, especially when the govt doesn't like it. I don't like "hate speech" laws, they always get in the way of actual freedom and keeping the govt honest. I forget which amendment of your constitution guarantees free speech but it's a beautiful thing. YAY CHARLIE
BUT the one thing that I'd disagree with him (and I wouldn't let it break fellowship over) is the NAR teaching.
Even when I was excommunicated out of that church, I still stayed in touch with anyone who would listen to me, I was still in fellowship with several who stayed there. Didn't agree with them, but they were still brothers and sisters in Christ.
You see that NAR theology, among other things teaches a form of Dominionism. Where Christians should gain control of the govt, and become the ruling power, and dominate and control society thru all the 7 "mountains".
the 7 "mountains" are: family, religion, education, media, arts and entertainment, business, and government.
The idea is to take back control over each area, and stamp out any opposition.
Anyone who gets involved in NAR isn't "all bad" or "all good" anymore than the rest of us. That teaching is very appealing. It affects people who never even heard of C.Peter Wagner or the New Apostolic Reformation. And it fits within the move to reform politics, family values, the arts, the media and every other "mountain" of culture.
Anyone can get caught up in bad teaching, it takes time to spot it, and root it out. Charlie was a young man with high ideals who wanted the best for his country, but most of all he wanted to get people saved.
I get why he'd cotton onto some of the NAR teachings. After all, I was there too back in the 90s.
And if Charlie's death draws attention to the bad side of NAR then it will only do what Charlie probably would have done given more time- which is move away from that teaching and explain why it's bad.
I was part of an NAR church before it even got that name by C.Peter Wagner back in the early 90s. I was in it. I came out of it in 1998.
It was only after that experience that I began to question the teachings- why they were wrong, and why they placed such importance on infiltrating govt and power positions.
The 7 mountain mandate. I got to know how it works, why it works and how bad it is.
It infiltrates. It's drawn to politics because that is one of the 7 mountains.
Several of the preachers that Trump surrounds himself with are NAR or linked with that theology in some way. Paula White is a good example. But so is Charlie.
Paula is not a great example of a Christian teacher, yet Charlie was.
Paula preaches a false gospel of prosperity, something very different from the true gospel that Charlie taught.
That just goes to show how difficult it is. Both are NAR but one preaches for money, Word Faith heresy while the other preaches for salvation. Yet they both have a vision for their country that starts by taking control back- with the govt.
People who love their country, who want the best for their fellow human beings often fall for the ideals in the 7 mountain mandate.
I knew very little of Charlie till he died. He's my daughter's generation, a bit younger than her- he's affected a lot of young people via social media. His death was devastating to her and many like her. I started to find out more as the avalanche of information poured out.
I understand that Charlie like the rest of us is a flawed human (only he's free of that now) who loved the Lord and his country and wanted the best for the people he came in contact with.
Like every other solid Christian Charlie wanted to see people saved. He didn't exclude people, he talked to everyone who would listen, and listened to those who wanted to give him their point of view.
What he taught isn't who he is.
It's only a part of his teaching.
And what we teach as Christians is open to criticism within healthy Christian circles. Being a Berean about the teaching. That is not casting shade on the blood bought person that teaches it. It is holding up the teaching to the Bible.
There are things I passionately agree with in Charlies teachings- first being the true gospel- that Jesus died for all who believe in Him, and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and sits now at the right hand of God the Father, awaiting the moment the Father tells Him to go get us. That all who call upon Christ will be saved.
And then I also agree with his stance on free speech. That everyone has a right to speak freely, especially when the govt doesn't like it. I don't like "hate speech" laws, they always get in the way of actual freedom and keeping the govt honest. I forget which amendment of your constitution guarantees free speech but it's a beautiful thing. YAY CHARLIE
BUT the one thing that I'd disagree with him (and I wouldn't let it break fellowship over) is the NAR teaching.
Even when I was excommunicated out of that church, I still stayed in touch with anyone who would listen to me, I was still in fellowship with several who stayed there. Didn't agree with them, but they were still brothers and sisters in Christ.
You see that NAR theology, among other things teaches a form of Dominionism. Where Christians should gain control of the govt, and become the ruling power, and dominate and control society thru all the 7 "mountains".
the 7 "mountains" are: family, religion, education, media, arts and entertainment, business, and government.
The idea is to take back control over each area, and stamp out any opposition.
Anyone who gets involved in NAR isn't "all bad" or "all good" anymore than the rest of us. That teaching is very appealing. It affects people who never even heard of C.Peter Wagner or the New Apostolic Reformation. And it fits within the move to reform politics, family values, the arts, the media and every other "mountain" of culture.
Anyone can get caught up in bad teaching, it takes time to spot it, and root it out. Charlie was a young man with high ideals who wanted the best for his country, but most of all he wanted to get people saved.
I get why he'd cotton onto some of the NAR teachings. After all, I was there too back in the 90s.
And if Charlie's death draws attention to the bad side of NAR then it will only do what Charlie probably would have done given more time- which is move away from that teaching and explain why it's bad.
I started attending an Assembly of God church in Fairbanks after the COVID restriction on church attendance ended. The services didn't raise too many red flags. Then I joined a home Bible study. Nowadays it seems like most Bible studies end up being something other than direct Bible study. We watched a video of a guy who clearly was a name it and claim it type. Bragged about his wealth. Bragged about his giving to certain causes. I shook the dust off my feet and never returned.
Amethyst
† He hath shed his own blood for my soul
Agree
Jan Markell had a good article posted here: ‘Kingdom Now?’: Today’s Self-Appointed Prophets And Apostles Need A Reality Check
for anyone wondering what on earth we are discussing and what NAR is, or the Seven Mountain Mandate, Dominionism, or the related movements of Reconstructionism etc.
It doesn't point any fingers, but it does explain why these teachings are wrong.
The people who do the teachings aren't always the "bad guys" either. Many of them get caught by the seductive nature of bad teaching.
The cure is more Bible understanding and being noble Bereans. Search the Scriptures to see if the things we think are Biblical really are.
for anyone wondering what on earth we are discussing and what NAR is, or the Seven Mountain Mandate, Dominionism, or the related movements of Reconstructionism etc.
It doesn't point any fingers, but it does explain why these teachings are wrong.
The people who do the teachings aren't always the "bad guys" either. Many of them get caught by the seductive nature of bad teaching.
The cure is more Bible understanding and being noble Bereans. Search the Scriptures to see if the things we think are Biblical really are.
Cheeky200386
Well-known
Exactly!! Thank you for explaining this so eloquently and kindly.
That might lead to a lot of people finding religion but not finding God.
TCC
Well-known
"1" thing I like about you cheeky is the same "1" (not that there are not others) that I like about Steph. You both share from such a real and lovely raw honest heart. And it is totally precious.
"What's the point?" Is a great question.
Coming from deep deep reformed roots, back then it was noted as dominionsim. And it was not articulated well at all. But the reformed version I was exposed to I suppose was kind of the cessationist version of NAR. Where they would just cleverly nudge the church theology into everything. Almost to cultic degree even. Without labels of 7 this or 10 Noahide laws etc, it was like trying to nail jello to the wall to understand if we were imagining things. So I guess on that note I would say one point could be that God has granted us to see what had been jello now have form enough to speak against it. Revealing. Not that Macarthur would be 7 mountain. Because he would not. But he would prefer the church was in charge of government. And he would shut down any freedom of religion. So I guess we could just say Macarthur was a purist that transcended 7 mountains. He would that it be just one, under the church. You'd would only know that if you had decades of insight into the ministry.
Even though there is more "revealing" now, there sure are a lot of grey areas. Because what Christian would not want better government? Or cleaner movies? Or schools that did not teach 100 different genders to our impressionable children's minds? And since America is so slated as being a government of the people by the people for the people, it would make sense that the more the church is the conscience of America, the better the ruddering direction would go. Amen. I don't think any of us would be against any of that. At least I don't think.
But to make societal power positions ways to dominate for power is the antithesis of: do not be called leader, for One is your leader. And how hard is it to come by where that statement is from? With no bible reference or inference, if we just Google "do not be called leader" bam...you get the Bible verse right away. That is how low hanging that fruit is today...lol. Then in Matt 20 it says: Do not Lord it over like the gentiles do. And we are provided insight into biblical heirchy. I would not say if a group aspires to drown out Hollywood with cleaner movies, or challenge evil school doctrines by competing the pants off public education etc as lording over. But making it "a mandate" lol, yeah that must come pretty close. And focuses on the church's power play more than to be able to see Jesus in them. Kind of a sucker punch for our age.
I am blessed that you are blessed by the things Steph mentions. She has kept me in helpful check (because I really see her gourgeous heart for Him) for several years now. Because my views do most trend dangerously close to NARs. Its good to have a strong heart and mind within life that challenges us to grow, and points very helpful observations out (with much heart and soul along the way). Anywayz just wanted to thank you for always coming to the forum with such heart. It is blessing. Blessings.
TCC
Well-known
Wow, very very well said Margery :+1).
Since you were in NAR, I have come to a question in my heart regarding where things might go. Might you think it possible that lets say NAR takes off and Christian Nationaism takes place. Might the strength and focus of that be a way potentially in which providentially America becomes more powerful and helps to super size perhaps Israel in the process for potential Ez 38 status? And if so, then it would seem to me that the things we might have concern forming like Christain Nationalism might actually be that which brings about international shifts that provide Israel with greater power and authority. So if that sort of thing happens, it would almost be like, in ways, we might be concerned with the very unfolding of prophecy by it. Not that NAR is accurately prophetic, but just that if that is the sort of thing that God permits or providentially enforces, would that not mean that the 7 mountain mandate would be a potential in How God fulfills prophecy? Ironically using NAR who thinks they are bringing on the return Christ to instead bring on Ez 38 and tribultion? Any thoughts?
I'll answer that, but maybe not in this thread. Because it would sidetrack it. But it's a great question. Can you start a fresh thread, with this exact question, so we can explore the possibilities there? And I might have to delay a bit because I got family tomorrow, and family on Tuesday (it's a long weekend up here in BC). Likely exhausted for a few days after. In about 5 or 6 days when I'm rested and firing on all cylinders again?Wow, very very well said Margery :+1).
Since you were in NAR, I have come to a question in my heart regarding where things might go. Might you think it possible that lets say NAR takes off and Christian Nationaism takes place. Might the strength and focus of that be a way potentially in which providentially America becomes more powerful and helps to super size perhaps Israel in the process for potential Ez 38 status? And if so, then it would seem to me that the things we might have concern forming like Christain Nationalism might actually be that which brings about international shifts that provide Israel with greater power and authority. So if that sort of thing happens, it would almost be like, in ways, we might be concerned with the very unfolding of prophecy by it. Not that NAR is accurately prophetic, but just that if that is the sort of thing that God permits or providentially enforces, would that not mean that the 7 mountain mandate would be a potential in How God fulfills prophecy? Ironically using NAR who thinks they are bringing on the return Christ to instead bring on Ez 38 and tribultion? Any thoughts?
For those who do not know much about what Charlie Kirk believed regarding salvation, here is a short (<1 minute) clip. I think it will settle in your mind that he is indeed with Jesus.
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