Can modern Israel really still claim God's promise to Abraham?

[mattfivefour]

I have been asked to begin a discussion on the subject of Israel and the land they occupy. Specifically, does Israel have an existing right to that land? And if so, just how much land? The purpose of this thread opener is not to answer all those questions but to set the ground for the discussion. I will, howeve, quote from a very reasoned article on this topic written by Australian Pastor Dean Dwyer who is very knowledgeable in Bible prophecy.

He frames his argument in the context of there being two types of covenant in the Old Testament-- conditional and unconditional. Conditional means God promises to do something as long as the other party does something. For example many of God's blessings upon Israel are conditional upon Israel's obedience to God. But some covenants are not dependent on man. They are unconditionally made by God without any human interaction and absolutely no conditions attached. They are as solid and unchanging as God Himself. As you will see, the covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 15 is one of these.

"Although promises were clearly made to Abram (as he was still known at the time) in Genesis 12 and 13, a covenant was not formally established until Genesis 15. If you want clarity on the absolute certainty and reliability of God’s promises to Israel, particularly in relation to its land grant, Genesis 15 provides it. Yet, prior to 1948, some struggled to see it, despite the fact that Genesis 17:7-8 clearly confirms its nature as an everlasting covenant through Abraham’s descendants: “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.“

"In Genesis 15:8, Abraham (Abram) asks God how he will be assured of the fact that God has promised he and his descendants the land: “And he said, ‘Lord GOD, how shall I know that I will inherit it?'” It was not an expression of faithlessness but a desire for confirmation of the divine promise. In response, God affirmed His covenant with Abraham (Abram) in a remarkable ceremony (Genesis 15:9-17), unilaterally committing Himself to carry out the terms of the covenant. Could God be trusted? Of course. Numbers 23:19: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has he said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?”

"Parties to a covenant passed through severed animals as a pledge that if either one broke the covenant, that party would suffer the same cutting that their animals had undergone. Because it is impossible for the Lord to be severed and mutilated, Abraham (Abram) could rest assured that he would undoubtedly receive the promised seed, the promised blessing, and the promised land. In Genesis 12:1 God told Abraham (Abram) that He would show him the land. In Genesis 13:17 God told Abraham (Abram) that He would give him the land. But in Genesis 15:18 God told Abraham (Abram) He had given him the land. God’s covenant made it a settled matter. Psalm 105:8-12: “He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant, saying, ‘To you I will give the land of Canaan as the allotment of your inheritance,’ when they were few in number."
(Full article at https://harbingersdaily.com/as-the-...am-accords-it-forgets-the-abrahamic-covenant/)

Anyway, there you have it: a starting point. Let the discussion begin.

 

[Kem]

Because it is impossible for the Lord to be severed and mutilated, Abraham (Abram) could rest assured that he would undoubtedly receive the promised seed, the promised blessing, and the promised land. In Genesis 12:1 God told Abraham (Abram) that He would show him the land. In Genesis 13:17 God told Abraham (Abram) that He would give him the land. But in Genesis 15:18 God told Abraham (Abram) He had given him the land. God’s covenant made it a settled matter. Psalm 105:8-12: “He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant, saying, ‘To you I will give the land of Canaan as the allotment of your inheritance,’ when they were few in number."

To my mind, this says it all. Abraham was not even awake when God made the covenant and God's faithfulness was the only thing involved, not the faithfulness of Abraham or any of his descendants. As God said,
"for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.
"And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, [then] your descendants also could be numbered.
"Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you." Genesis 13:15-17

And the promise came through Isaac Genesis 26:3-4
"Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father.
"And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

Then though Jacob Genesis 28:13-14
"Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father.
"And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

These promises were not given to other descendants of Abraham, just through Isaac and Jacob whom God later named Israel.

 

[bigMoose]

I hope we have a good and deep discussion in this area, as the world looks like it is going to challenge Israel on all fronts. I think it good for us all to come to a good understanding of the Abrahamic promises and covenant ourselves, and also to understand the other options that the world is going to throw out. If we can firmly grasp the Biblical Truth, we can then develop counter points to what the world may put forth.

I hope we could perhaps also add a discussion of Genesis 12:3 into this thread. I have been in discussions with individuals (not fully engaged in sound Biblical principles) and hope to develop some "change my mind" points to challenge them with.

Here is the crux in Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Who is the you in our 2025 world? Can we define it by geography? Lineage/Genetics? Belief System? Jewish? Jewish/Christian? I do not want to bias the discussion this early with their points, but am very interested in our boards thoughts on this.

 

[TCC]

Thanks Pastor. We have had similar discussions on the boards previously. And I am grateful that you would see a potential of God's disciplinary hand upon Isarel today of sorts. That was helpful to see in that light (per some previous discussions). In general, I would say the promises are paused during Israel unbelief period. Matthew 23:39 seems to indicate a pause of noticeable covenant blessing until the end of the tribulation. But what is kind of super fascinating to note, is even in that, God's way of "pausing" includes the following apparently:

• Israel return to their land
• Israel super growth per Ez 37
• Israel being unmistakably at the epicenter of worldwide media
• Israel having blessings and riches massively poured upon them during their returned years

So that is a pretty cool version of being on pause, i must say. I believe that Israel is still under the covenant but paused exegetically and officially. However, even though Israel historically rejected her messiah, the Abrahamic Covenant I believe never ceases because of claims of its eternal value from God. How that looks along the way, though, is where i believe we can get in trouble.

In general what i see today often is many voices in the church presume to speak for God concerning on how that covenant works with Israel today. For me that is kind of a turn off because God has really not consulted any of us on that. Its outside our sphere of operations i believe. I think we have can have some general tones of that covenant and activity even now in small and subtle ways. But what tends to occur more so that i see is that some can tend to run into the next county with how they understand it all plays out.

The Abraham Accords i think is a good example. We have some in the body saying that Israel should not fall for that trick. As if the Abraham Accords formed in ancient Israel under those covenant era guidelines. But the way i would understand this is that Israel is already in hardcore unbelief. Partnering with neighbors may not help. But it is, in my view, so far removed from what can honor God today in Israel that I would see takes (although beautifully well meaning) to not apply today "at all." Because there is no sense the Israel here today is the ancient Israel under contract with God. They are as far as God is concerned. But Israel, to me, is so many standard deviations away from the statistics bell shaped norm that there is no way i would see that could possibly apply in their current condition. Me thinks.

So in this "Israel" generation before us, I believe they are MORE something else as a witness of God's faithfulness to the world than they are in some sense sharing (from their POV) in a covenant with God. I believe Israel is a showcase of God's honor toward His creation. And that He will bring them to repentance later. But the fact they are on the world map and so huge in the news always...testifies of His covenant heart toward creation. Outside of that and how they fulfill prophesy, i don't think there are active components for Israel to actually service within the Abrahamic covenant. They are too spiritually hardened to even (in my estimation) to be able to function at that level.

However in the sense of the Abraham Accords, what would be a forbidden thing in their ancient condition, today is perhaps that which God will most use to bring them temporal super status. My take is then the rapture then Ez 38. So in the sense of this discussion, I would see that once the church leaves, the preservation power over Israel in their "showcase" moment, is over. And perhaps on top of everything else, Ez 38 be a response from God for their addiction to the world via the Accords. So maybe there is an aspect like that?

. . . . .

Bottom line though is that i would generally view a common practice today that, in my estimation, tends to shoehorn in the Abrahamic Covenant overreach as though Israel today in this generation functions exactly like it did when they were in their ancient form. Which that in and of itself, IMHO, can tend to exist as perhaps not exactly permitting proper relevance to historical events in God's own trajectory of dispensational operations and how that all might work concerning Him. Like it just works the same. Which to me omits too many other co-traveling conditions that co-exist in how God is also operating in today.

The tendency seems to cultivate a way in which we form storyboards based on how we think the Abrahamic Covenant applies today. But we are not told exactly in the word how that works. That i am aware of. I believe some conjecture is of course reasonable since we don't know. But i have also have seen huge swaths of the philosophy of "everything" summed up in a nice package as to how to quarterback Israel from the Livingroom Christian couch. If anything, to me, this is a testament to how we so don't belong in that instructional place. But like i said, of course some conjecture and certainly consideration is healthy. Like offering discussing on this here in the form, a beautiful family move. Amen.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Can modern Israel really still claim God's promise to Abraham?​

Yes

 

[Kem]

Yes

Boiling it down to the most basic succinct answer.

 

[mattfivefour]

The tendency seems to cultivate a way in which we form storyboards based on how we think the Abrahamic Covenant applies today. But we are not told exactly in the word how that works. That i am aware of. I believe some conjecture is of course reasonable since we don't know.

Brother, I am not quoting your entire post even though it is relevant, because it is very long and the part i did quote is most relevant. I think you are complicating it too much. Myself I take God's never-ending covenant with Abraham very simply. He said that He have the land to Abraham and his descendants. No limit, no restrictions, no ending. so, who are we to posit ANYTHING other than the land is Israel's? When we begin to view weirdly circumstances or Israel's behavior as mitigating --even for a short period-- the purpose of the covenant, then we are attempting to modify what God has said, and what God has done.

Under the Abrahamic Covenant, neither Abraham nor His descendents have any part in its performance. It is s gift from God. No riders, no addenda, no changes. As given to Abraham in Genesis its terms remain to this day. It is as immutable as God Himself since it was made by Him, for His purposes, sealed by His actual words.

 

[AnyMinute]

To my mind, this says it all. Abraham was not even awake when God made the covenant and God's faithfulness was the only thing involved, not the faithfulness of Abraham or any of his descendants. As God said,
"for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.
"And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, [then] your descendants also could be numbered.
"Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you." Genesis 13:15-17

And the promise came through Isaac Genesis 26:3-4
"Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father.
"And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

Then though Jacob Genesis 28:13-14
"Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father.
"And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

These promises were not given to other descendants of Abraham, just through Isaac and Jacob whom God later named Israel.

I don't believe Israel has ever taken full possession of all the land promised under the Abrahamic covenant and later expounded upon in the Old Testament.

I believe they will after some prophesied battles take place (land clearing and squatters removed) to include the final battle of armageddon Revelation 16:16, Zechariah 14:2-3 Joel 3:2.

And they will certainly be in full possession of the land while Jesus reigns from there in the Millennium. Not only the land but the full promised blessings (this touches on Genesis 12:3)!

 

[dwb]

I agree the answer is absolutely yes! The Bible is very clear on this, but those who don't believe in the Bible think differently.

 

[pixelpusher]

I have not read every word of this thread in detail but what comes to mind is Ezekiel 36:22-23:

Therefore tell the house of Israel that this is what the Lord GOD says: It is not for your sake that I will act, O houseof Israel, but for My holy name, which you profaned among the nations to which you went. 23 I will show the holiness of My great name, which has been profaned among the nations—the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when I show My holiness in you before their eyes.…

The thought is God intends to keep His promises for His Name - perhaps I have taken this out of context, but I believe He said what He meant, and meant what He said when He gave the land to Abraham and his decendents.

 

[1LoverofGod]

Examining Joel 3:2 about the dividing of the land, I look at two things here.
God calls Israel His Heritage, and God says its His land.

2 "I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land."
Joel 3:2

Since this is a future prophecy it seems to me that in God using these two phrases, Israel is His heritage, and the land is His, this implies that God has given His land to His heirs, the children (or descendants) of Israel.
So, yes, the land rightfully belongs to the nation of Israel today, and future, because by God's covenant He made Israel heirs to His land.

 

[Greg]

I agree with almost everything above. Genesis 15 makes it crystal clear God unconditionally gave the land between the Nile and the Euphrates to Israel. They haven't yet enjoyed all that, not even in the time of Solomon. But they will... I believe in the millennial kingdom. Until then, it's increasingly a burdensome stone. Maybe there will be a short time of peace ahead, but we know how that will go.

 

[TCC]

Brother, I am not quoting your entire post even though it is relevant, because it is very long and the part i did quote is most relevant. I think you are complicating it too much. Myself I take God's never-ending covenant with Abraham very simply. He said that He have the land to Abraham and his descendants. No limit, no restrictions, no ending. so, who are we to posit ANYTHING other than the land is Israel's? When we begin to view weirdly circumstances or Israel's behavior as mitigating --even for a short period-- the purpose of the covenant, then we are attempting to modify what God has said, and what God has done.

Under the Abrahamic Covenant, neither Abraham nor His descendents have any part in its performance. It is s gift from God. No riders, no addenda, no changes. As given to Abraham in Genesis its terms remain to this day. It is as immutable as God Himself since it was made by Him, for His purposes, sealed by His actual words.

EDITED as of 10:41 Saturday PST, 10-4-25...so sorry for the typos...it was late. It should read much more straight forward for any who might have already given it a shot. A very important issue of discussion. Amen...and blessings.

Thanks Pastor. lol. I believe I was answering the wrong question. Forgive me brother. Originally i was thinking it was how we might view if the Abrahamic covenant is in effect today and if so how. lol. Although you were kind of asking that in reference to their land, I think I decided to take it into another county. Wow. So sorry. Ok, so as far as the land, yes, as TT pointed out. They will have it in the millennial kingdom. I guess how i might understand it specifically is that prior to 1948, they may have had a right to it, but experientially only when God would determine the end of the diaspora. But yes, that land given to them in the Old Testament is theirs forever. Amen. In that sense though, in diaspora they did not have God's permission to dwell in the land promised for 2,000 years. On account of their chastisement from the first century.

The point I was going after like a cat playfully attacking a string of yarn like, was even though they are on their land as promised, they will in the short term (Ezekiel 38) lose some of it for a minute from that war. From discipline + a likely entrance into the tribulation....the cat walk unto the thousand year reign.

Although God promised an eternal covenant with Israel, they would be susceptible to chastisement if they themselves did not honor it. For example the 70 years in captivity, not permitted to their land for that time. And Lamentations capturing what it looked like for Israel to cling to their land during a period God would not permit them to dwell therein. I would see that same aspect of their wondering the desert (even at their initial timeframe to receive that land). And a 40 year interval of God not permitting Israel to receive their promise, even initially again because of discipline.

I agree pastor it is an eternal covenant initiated and kept by God, thus the burning furnace and pillar of cloud passing between the pieces. What i was just referring to earlier would be like Gen 17:10, where even in this covenant made and kept by God alone, Israel being able to benefit from and experience its core blessing, they were to remain obedient. So a promise that is eternally secure for Israel, and kept by God as an eternal promise and eternal offering. Yet, Israel's ability to experience it would seem to have some notions of Israeli obedience to experience the fullest blessing of it. So like God does not keep that promise dependent on their obedience--as example they live there today...not so obedient. So God keeps it always and does not end or annul the covenant based on Israel's obedience. But for Israel to lay hold of that promise biblically would seem accessed through faith in living action of obedience.

Again, the promise itself is set forever. The endowment fully realized concerning Israel would seem to have conditions though, no? If their dwelling in their land is symbolic of that eternal promise, it is enjoyed by Israel in their obedience. And from an historic view, it would seem that the world gets to see God provide them with their land regardless of their obedience (but still, wow, with a lot of contemporary tension...that is for sure). A graced expressed of the God of that covenant to them before all. That the fact that Israel is dwelling there in Ez 37 manner, amidst all the controversy...testifies to the "eternity" of that promise God gave to Israel.

I would though suggest "this" [the following] sense is a part of what is expressed in God's word too though brother. Experientially in noticing how that functioned in their wandering the desert for 40 years, and the Babylonian exile for 70.

9 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your [j]descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

14 But as for an uncircumcised male, one who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

Blessings.

 

[mattfivefour]

In making your case, brother, you seem to be conflating two types of covenant-- conditional and unconditional. You mention Genesis 17 where God's covenant is conditional; but, respectfully, the covenant of Genesis 15 is unconditional and therefore is not subject to the same alterations as the others.

 

[AnyMinute]

Here is the crux in Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

I think your entire question would make for a great thread on it own.

I quoted this part because of the word you in bold. I think it is very important to consider since God used the word 'you' specifically when speaking to Abram multiple times throughout the Abrahamic Covenant.
As stated earlier up thread, I don't believe Abraham, or his descendants, ever saw the entirety of the land and blessings promised.
The writer of Hebrews tells us in Hebrews 11:8-16

8By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

So if they did not receive the promises at that time when will they?
God said multiple times to Abram that he (you) and your descendants will receive all the promised land and the included blessings.

As I posted before, I believe that will take place in full, during the Millennium. Abraham, who died in faith, will be resurrected along with all the other Old Testament saints at the end of the tribulation.
Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

They will go into the promised kingdom, along with the tribulation saints who are separated out during the sheep an goat judgement. Matthew 25:31-34

I hope this isn't a derail from the original question and I'm certainly open to correction.

 

[mattfivefour]

I hope this isn't a derail from the original question and I'm certainly open to correction.

Not a derail at all. In fact I view it as part and parcel of the thread topic. After all, it is the special status of Israel among all the nations of the world which is the point of this discussion. Do the promises that God made to Abraham and his descendants still hold true today? Or were they just for a certain period in history?

 

[AnyMinute]

Do the promises that God made to Abraham and his descendants still hold true today?

Like our direct and man of few words Tall Timbers answered, YES!

Or were they just for a certain period in history?

Personally I find those who can't see the biblical relevance of the modern State of Israel, their miraculous rebirth so to speak (still in process), to be blinded with a form of replacement theology or worse, antisemitism.
If they can't see how God is working before our very eyes, bringing to a conclusion all He has promised and foretold, then they really need to ask Him to open their understanding.

 

[TCC]

Not a derail at all. In fact I view it as part and parcel of the thread topic. After all, it is the special status of Israel among all the nations of the world which is the point of this discussion. Do the promises that God made to Abraham and his descendants still hold true today? Or were they just for a certain period in history?

This is what i was thinking the core issue was too initially. It kind of ends up there i think mostly in ways. Blessings.

 

[TCC]

In making your case, brother, you seem to be conflating two types of covenant-- conditional and unconditional. You mention Genesis 17 where God's covenant is conditional; but, respectfully, the covenant of Genesis 15 is unconditional and therefore is not subject to the same alterations as the others.

I'm not sure I understand the disconnect though pastor. How is it conflating though? Well, the way I am asking it is like this: If we look at Gen 15 and say it is eternal and whatever is made in 17 has no bearing...I am not sure of the point on that. Surely 15 does not mean that Israel would occupy its land from the time of capture and forevermore. If we say "eternal" in that respect, then 40 years they did not have their land, and 70 years they did not have their land, and 2,000 years they did not have their land. So they are on their land experiencing the eternal covenant. The fact that we can say, "they are back" means God would not let them have their land for 2,000 years providentially. Respectfully brother to just say I'm conflating i don't think helps clarify the reality that the land of Israel belongs to them experientially under conditions. Because that is kind of what we have seen for centuries, no? That is not to say chapter 15 is not eternal. But what it does not mean is that Israel could have insisted to God after rejecting their Messiah that He keep their land because of the eternal Gen 15 promise, though, and not let Rome chase them from their own land, correct? What am i missing?

 

[bigMoose]

So the you in Genesis 12:3 is best considered as: Abraham and his (genetic) descendants throughout the ages?