Are Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 connected?

[bigMoose]

Just to add a resource I either borrowed or compiled (can't remember where I got it from... as was just meant for my own use.) I'll share it here if it helps:

List of countries involved against Israel in the Eze 38-39 war:

Joel Rosenberg

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia and former Soviet Republics
Persia - Iran
Cush - Sudan, Ethiopia, and possibly Eritrea
Put - Libya, Algeria, Tunisia
Gomer - Turkey and possibly Germany and Austria
Bethtogarmah - Turkey, Armenia, and the Turkic-speaking peoples of Asia Minor and Central Asia
Countries with mountanous borders with Israel - Syria, Lebanon, and northern Jordan
Many Peoples with you - Possible additional Islamic Allies
[Sbeba and Dedan] - [Saudia Arabia, Yemen, Oman, and the Gulf States]

Mark Hitchcock

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia, Central Asia, and possibly Afghanistan, Turkey
Persia - Iran
Cush - Sudan
Put - Libya
Gomer - Turkey
Bethtogarmah - Turkey

Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia
Persia - Iran
Cush - Ethiopia
Put - Somalia (and definitely not Libya)
Gomer - Germany
Bethtogarmah - Armenia
Many Peoples with you - May or may not mean additional countries

John Hagee

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia
Persia - Iran
Cush - Ethiopia
Put - Libya

Tim LaHaye

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia
Persia - Iran
Cush - Sudan
Put - Lybia
Gomer - Turkey
Bethtogarmah - Turkey

Jimmy DeYoung

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia, Turkey
Persia - Iran, Pakistan, Afganistan
Cush - Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan
Put - Libya

John Walvoord

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia
Persia - Iran
Cush - East of Egypt and West of Red Sea (But Uncertain)
Put - South of Cush in Africa (But Uncertain)
Gomer - Asia Minor and others in Eastern Europe
Bethtogarmah - Armenia
[Sbeba and Dedan] - [Southwestern and Southern Arabia]

Jack Kelley

Magog - Russia
Meshech and Tubal - Eastern Turkey
Persia - Iran
Cush and Put
Cush - Ethiopia
Put - Libya
Gomer - Eastern Europe
Beth Togarmah - Armenia and Turkey (not Kurds)
Sheba and Dedan - Nations of the Arabian Peninsula to include Saudi Arabia

Grant Jeffries

The land of Magog --- Russia
Meshech and Tubal --- Somewhere in Russia
Persia --- Iran. Iraq & Afghanistan
Ethiopia --- Ethiopia and Sudan
Libya --- Libya
Ashkenaz --- Austria and Germany
Gomer --- Eastern Europe
Togarmah --- Southeastern Europe - Turkey
"Many peoples with thee" ---- Various other nations allied to Russia



Notice what is missing from all these lists: Those countries that immediately surround Israel: Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, The Gaza Strip, The Sinai Peninsula.

 

[Hol]

If Asaph's prayer were answered today, then either revival would happen or Islam will cease to be.

This is an interesting perspective to me. There's a handful of brave scholars who are taking a critical look at the Quran and Mohammad. For historical evidence they look at coinage from the 6th century, artwork, literature and have some very tough questions about the whole origin of Islam. These are Christian scholars who want to reach Islamists for Jesus, and they are having profound effects.

I'd love to see an end of Islam soon.

 

[mikhen7]

Great discussion! Thought provoking.

As an aside, I have always thought of the Ezekiel 38 description of Israel living in peace as being connected to the covenant that the Antichrist makes with them. As a result of his protection, they would no longer have anything to fear because this powerful ruler who (through Satan's power) has gained control of the world has promised them peace and what nation would dare come against them? In this scenario, the peaceful dwelling would occur after the Antichrist is revealed and, therefore, post-Rapture.

Hello Brother. That is one scenario I have read from others many times, and if we take Scripture literally, then it would have to happen simultaneously when the AC puts the covenant of death into effect. The pesky passage that always nags at me is the gathering and burning of the G/M weapons for 7 years. It can coincide with the beginning of the Tribulation, but again, I believe God to be precise, so it would have to all happen simultaneously. I have felt the reason for the Covenant of death promising the pseudo peace, was as a result of G/M happening prior to the Tribulation. I think I am still up in the air on this one.

 

[mikhen7]

I think I am still up in the air on this one.

But the more I think about it, I still think it will happen just prior to the Tribulation. Either pre or post rapture. I think the Islamist's and Russian axis has to be defused, and God will do it. The more I think about the Red Heifer and the Temple mount access, the more I believe a huge boiler is about to explode.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

This is an interesting perspective to me. There's a handful of brave scholars who are taking a critical look at the Quran and Mohammad. For historical evidence they look at coinage from the 6th century, artwork, literature and have some very tough questions about the whole origin of Islam. These are Christian scholars who want to reach Islamists for Jesus, and they are having profound effects.

I'd love to see an end of Islam soon.

Me, too. However, I think it's the religious/political/government/economic system of the end. Or maybe a militant chrislam that enforces sharia

 

[Anastacia]

Something I'm wondering-- related to Ps. 83 and Jeremiah 49...

Considering that
Jordan made peace with Israel in 1994,
and Jordan is where the Jewish remnant goes to hide during the Tribulation,
and Jordan is one of the countries the AC does not subdue (Dan. 11:42)...
When would (or did) Jer. 49:1-2 happen where Ammon/Jordan is destroyed/desolate?
And wouldnt they have to turn against Israel in the near future if Ps 83 truly is a war? But if they turn against Israel soon, it doesn't seem to line up with them resisting the AC and the Jews fleeing to Petra.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Something I'm wondering-- related to Ps. 83 and Jeremiah 49...

Considering that
Jordan made peace with Israel in 1994,
and Jordan is where the Jewish remnant goes to hide during the Tribulation,
and Jordan is one of the countries the AC does not subdue (Dan. 11:42)...
When would (or did) Jer. 49:1-2 happen where Ammon/Jordan is destroyed/desolate?
And wouldnt they have to turn against Israel in the near future if Ps 83 truly is a war? But if they turn against Israel soon, it doesn't seem to line up with them resisting the AC and the Jews fleeing to Petra.

Good questions 99.

If Psalm 83 does somehow turn out to be a prophecy , then God could easily change the mindset of Jordan.

Maybe it's sacrifices on the temple mount that may trigger them to suddenly turn on Israel assuming Psalm 83 is a prophecy ?

Just remember, Iran and Turkey use to be really strong allies and have a great relationship and now they have turned against them.

 

[Margery]

I think the Islamist's and Russian axis has to be defused, and God will do it.

That is a very important point that has to happen for the ancient Roman Empire as it was in 70 AD to re emerge.

The power in the globe has to be centred back in the old Roman Empire region which was Europe, Turkey and parts of North Africa, during the time when Rome sacked Jerusalem, burnt the Temple and pulled it apart for the gold and then expelled the Jews. That part of the Roman Empire was before the split and it's HQ was in Rome. It was much later that the HQ moved to Constantinople and the Empire was split in 2.

Dr Ken Johnson has an interesting take on the splits in ancient Rome and where the power centres moved to. He traces the Western Holy Roman Empire down to the Kaisers (Caesars) in Germany, and the eastern side to the Tsars (also derived originally from the word Caesar) in Russia.

The Tsars trace back to some intermarriage with the escapees from the Muslim invasion of Constantinople (related to the Caesar line) just before Christopher Columbus which is how they laid claim to the title.

And then there is a 3rd element from Turkey, which became the Muslim part of ancient Rome, when they took over Constantinople.

It IS VERY interesting that WW 1 ended/changed all of these 3 lines descending from the ancient Roman Empire. About the time of the Balfour declaration that would eventually lead to Israel.

Yet they still continue to today;

Western Rome centred in the European globalists (Klaus Schwab for example of the WEF) who do exert a lot of control in Washington DC, London and the West in general. It's odd that Klaus Schwab and a lot of the Germans are setting up the globalist empire with lines of control extending into Washington DC. In one sense it's the last of the Kaisers, the tattered remnant of the "Holy Roman Empire" which was the western European version of the ancient Roman Empire just not centred in Rome Italy because it moved to parts of France, Germany and Italy during the Holy Roman Empire ending with the Kaisers of Germany.

Eastern Rome that fell to the Ottoman Turks is still a force in Islam today

and finally Russia may have murdered her Tsars, but their lust for power continued unabated thru the Communist era and beyond to today.



At that time of that Balfour Declaration after WW 1 ended, several ancient nations were reconstituted out of the breakup of the old Ottoman Turkish empire. Syria, Lebanon and Jordan consisting of Ammon, Moab and Edom. Egypt broke free of the Turks, Arabia began to emerge and in fact their oil wealth at that time in history when the internal combustion engine was starting to really take off is why the king of Jordan was removed from Mecca and Medina where that dynasty ruled since Mohammed, over to Jordan, allowing the rival gang of Sauds to take over Mecca and Medina.


The trees- that are referenced in the olive tree prophecy, Luke 21:29-36 speaks of more than just the olive. If the olive tree stands for Israel (cedar for Lebanon) then other trees should show up at that time and they did. Ancient Empires that affected Israel in the past were brought back to life,

WW 2 was simply an extension of WW 1. After that Israel came together as a nation in a day.

My favourite way of looking at Isaiah 17 as the fuse that lights the powderkeg of Gog Magog maybe backwards. Because if Isaiah 17 is coming up, and that foreign plant that she imports is none other than the False Covenant, then Gog Magog comes FIRST, then the 10 Kings, then Isaiah 17?

I'm rolling that around in my brain now. Anyone have some thoughts on that? I'm probably reaching a bit to see the AC covenant in Isaiah 17.

I'm playing with the puzzle pieces, busting them apart, seeing if they could fit any other sequences.

Something I'm wondering-- related to Ps. 83 and Jeremiah 49...

Considering that
Jordan made peace with Israel in 1994,
and Jordan is where the Jewish remnant goes to hide during the Tribulation,
and Jordan is one of the countries the AC does not subdue (Dan. 11:42)...
When would (or did) Jer. 49:1-2 happen where Ammon/Jordan is destroyed/desolate?
And wouldnt they have to turn against Israel in the near future if Ps 83 truly is a war? But if they turn against Israel soon, it doesn't seem to line up with them resisting the AC and the Jews fleeing to Petra.

AND you've just hit on a big reason Jeremiah 49 might NOT be a good fit in my scenario at the time of the destruction of Damascus and Elam. Because Daniel does say "many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon."

Which might mean that Jeremiah 49 at least the Jordan sections of it, would possibly be towards the end of the Tribulation when the AC tries to go after the Jews tucked away in Bosrah (Petra). King Jesus is treading out the enemies, like grapes in the winepress in that region so it suggests He is dealing with at least a portion of the AC's armies gathered against Petra and the Jews sheltered there.

 

[Anastacia]

That is a very important point that has to happen for the ancient Roman Empire as it was in 70 AD to re emerge.

The power in the globe has to be centred back in the old Roman Empire region which was Europe, Turkey and parts of North Africa, during the time when Rome sacked Jerusalem, burnt the Temple and pulled it apart for the gold and then expelled the Jews. That part of the Roman Empire was before the split and it's HQ was in Rome. It was much later that the HQ moved to Constantinople and the Empire was split in 2.

Dr Ken Johnson has an interesting take on the splits in ancient Rome and where the power centres moved to. He traces the Western Holy Roman Empire down to the Kaisers (Caesars) in Germany, and the eastern side to the Tsars (also derived originally from the word Caesar) in Russia.

The Tsars trace back to some intermarriage with the escapees from the Muslim invasion of Constantinople (related to the Caesar line) just before Christopher Columbus which is how they laid claim to the title.

And then there is a 3rd element from Turkey, which became the Muslim part of ancient Rome, when they took over Constantinople.

It IS VERY interesting that WW 1 ended/changed all of these 3 lines descending from the ancient Roman Empire. About the time of the Balfour declaration that would eventually lead to Israel.

Yet they still continue to today;

Western Rome centred in the European globalists (Klaus Schwab for example of the WEF) who do exert a lot of control in Washington DC, London and the West in general. It's odd that Klaus Schwab and a lot of the Germans are setting up the globalist empire with lines of control extending into Washington DC. In one sense it's the last of the Kaisers, the tattered remnant of the "Holy Roman Empire" which was the western European version of the ancient Roman Empire just not centred in Rome Italy because it moved to parts of France, Germany and Italy during the Holy Roman Empire ending with the Kaisers of Germany.

Eastern Rome that fell to the Ottoman Turks is still a force in Islam today

and finally Russia may have murdered her Tsars, but their lust for power continued unabated thru the Communist era and beyond to today.



At that time of that Balfour Declaration after WW 1 ended, several ancient nations were reconstituted out of the breakup of the old Ottoman Turkish empire. Syria, Lebanon and Jordan consisting of Ammon, Moab and Edom. Egypt broke free of the Turks, Arabia began to emerge and in fact their oil wealth at that time in history when the internal combustion engine was starting to really take off is why the king of Jordan was removed from Mecca and Medina where that dynasty ruled since Mohammed, over to Jordan, allowing the rival gang of Sauds to take over Mecca and Medina.


The trees- that are referenced in the olive tree prophecy, Luke 21:29-36 speaks of more than just the olive. If the olive tree stands for Israel (cedar for Lebanon) then other trees should show up at that time and they did. Ancient Empires that affected Israel in the past were brought back to life,

WW 2 was simply an extension of WW 1. After that Israel came together as a nation in a day.

My favourite way of looking at Isaiah 17 as the fuse that lights the powderkeg of Gog Magog maybe backwards. Because if Isaiah 17 is coming up, and that foreign plant that she imports is none other than the False Covenant, then Gog Magog comes FIRST, then the 10 Kings, then Isaiah 17?

I'm rolling that around in my brain now. Anyone have some thoughts on that? I'm probably reaching a bit to see the AC covenant in Isaiah 17.

I'm playing with the puzzle pieces, busting them apart, seeing if they could fit any other sequences.

AND you've just hit on a big reason Jeremiah 49 might NOT be a good fit in my scenario at the time of the destruction of Damascus and Elam. Because Daniel does say "many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon."

Which might mean that Jeremiah 49 at least the Jordan sections of it, would possibly be towards the end of the Tribulation when the AC tries to go after the Jews tucked away in Bosrah (Petra). King Jesus is treading out the enemies, like grapes in the winepress in that region so it suggests He is dealing with at least a portion of the AC's armies gathered against Petra and the Jews sheltered there.

This is good stuff that will keep me thinking! But I'll never keep it all straight.
Margery, do you know all this history off the top of your head?!!

 

[mikhen7]

Which might mean that Jeremiah 49 at least the Jordan sections of it, would possibly be towards the end of the Tribulation when the AC tries to go after the Jews tucked away in Bosrah (Petra). King Jesus is treading out the enemies, like grapes in the winepress in that region so it suggests He is dealing with at least a portion of the AC's armies gathered against Petra and the Jews sheltered there.

Good points! Remember Ps. 91 - Even though many repeat the passage as a promise of God's deliverance from current circumstamce, it is really a prophecy that was given to Israel related to the flight(s) from Israel when AC sets up His Abomination of Desolation and the second flight when Christ returns and His feet touch the Mt. of Olives (Zech 14:3-5):

Psalm 91:1–8 (NKJV)

Safety of Abiding in the Presence of God

1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust.”

3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler
And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
8 Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.

Because I believe the true fulfillment of this Psalm/Prophecy to be the last half of the Tribulation period, Those that have fled are protected and at some point AC's armies do try to come after them in Bozra/Petra. Its like to old days of the Hebrews in Goshen. The plagues were all around them, but the Jews were protected.

 

[Margery]

This is good stuff that will keep me thinking! But I'll never keep it all straight.
Margery, do you know all this history off the top of your head?!!

I like history, always did. There seems to be a part of my brain that God gave me that sticks to historical stuff like glue. Kind of like a mental timeline with red light stops for important events.

Homeschooling the kids thru high school helped too because there was a great tape cassette series (the mid 90s) by a homeschooler named Diana Waring who went from Genesis to then the present day in a very captivating manner. I'd stick those in whenever I had an audience in the back seat, and drive. We did a lot of long distance driving at that time for various reasons. They learned, and so did I.

That was where I got the connection between the Renaissance and Reformation with the explosion out of Constantinople- as the Muslim Turks over ran that city, the people ran with books (and scrolls) in their bags to the west (and some unfortunates to the North and Russia). Almost the same time as Columbus set sail. Also the same time that Isabella of Spain and her husband whats his name started the Inquisition and expelling the Jews. I was riveted, nobody in school ever pointed out the juxtaposition or what it meant.

Mind you my non Christian grandfather had gone to Cambridge University and he loved history, so he used to tell me all kinds of the odd bits that regular teachers bleach out of the textbooks. Like the term Isabella colour, which referenced an oath that Queen Isabella made to not wash her clothes till something or other happened and it took years.

Then to see how God arranged the invention of the printing press about 100 years in advance of the Reformation so it would be ready for the explosion of knowledge as people began to try and print copies of the Bible. When we talk about the exponential curve of knowledge it starts there. When the Bible gets into print and people have access to it. The Renaissance was a revival of pagan stuff combined with a genuine revival of science and math. Without the Bible it would have all gone away, but because of the Bible, there were sudden big changes -the age of Revolutions which meant that the Bible was able to spread, and the Missionary era began. It's all interconnected.

When I come on here and mention dates and stuff I do check to see that I've not gotten it gibbled up but for the most part I remember pretty well. When I taught my kids, I approached it like my granddad used to. I acted like I was bootlegging some naughty details (which history is full of) from an extremely ancient version of "People" magazine only 600 or so years old. I also used good quality historical fiction for kids- not the modern stupid stuff full of inaccuracy and efforts to re write things so it doesn't offend various people groups.

They adored it and as a result aren't too shabby with history. Our son went to England and didn't bother leaving the British Museum till it was time to go over to France and tour the beaches of Normandy. He brought home a wonderful book on Egyptian hieroglyphics that he refused to share. Our daughter gets excited over the time line of the Exodus and who the Pharoah involved really was.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

This is good stuff that will keep me thinking! But I'll never keep it all straight.
Margery, do you know all this history off the top of your head?!!

Nope, just the holy spirit blessing us all by using Margery as a vessell to share some knowledge

 

[mikhen7]

Nope, just the holy spirit blessing us all by using Margery as a vessell to share some knowledge

She has always been a blessing in every way. And blessed in every way!

 

[Andiamo]

I like history, always did. There seems to be a part of my brain that God gave me that sticks to historical stuff like glue. Kind of like a mental timeline with red light stops for important events.

Homeschooling the kids thru high school helped too because there was a great tape cassette series (the mid 90s) by a homeschooler named Diana Waring who went from Genesis to then the present day in a very captivating manner. I'd stick those in whenever I had an audience in the back seat, and drive. We did a lot of long distance driving at that time for various reasons. They learned, and so did I.

That was where I got the connection between the Renaissance and Reformation with the explosion out of Constantinople- as the Muslim Turks over ran that city, the people ran with books (and scrolls) in their bags to the west (and some unfortunates to the North and Russia). Almost the same time as Columbus set sail. Also the same time that Isabella of Spain and her husband whats his name started the Inquisition and expelling the Jews. I was riveted, nobody in school ever pointed out the juxtaposition or what it meant.

Mind you my non Christian grandfather had gone to Cambridge University and he loved history, so he used to tell me all kinds of the odd bits that regular teachers bleach out of the textbooks. Like the term Isabella colour, which referenced an oath that Queen Isabella made to not wash her clothes till something or other happened and it took years.

Then to see how God arranged the invention of the printing press about 100 years in advance of the Reformation so it would be ready for the explosion of knowledge as people began to try and print copies of the Bible. When we talk about the exponential curve of knowledge it starts there. When the Bible gets into print and people have access to it. The Renaissance was a revival of pagan stuff combined with a genuine revival of science and math. Without the Bible it would have all gone away, but because of the Bible, there were sudden big changes -the age of Revolutions which meant that the Bible was able to spread, and the Missionary era began. It's all interconnected.

When I come on here and mention dates and stuff I do check to see that I've not gotten it gibbled up but for the most part I remember pretty well. When I taught my kids, I approached it like my granddad used to. I acted like I was bootlegging some naughty details (which history is full of) from an extremely ancient version of "People" magazine only 600 or so years old. I also used good quality historical fiction for kids- not the modern stupid stuff full of inaccuracy and efforts to re write things so it doesn't offend various people groups.

They adored it and as a result aren't too shabby with history. Our son went to England and didn't bother leaving the British Museum till it was time to go over to France and tour the beaches of Normandy. He brought home a wonderful book on Egyptian hieroglyphics that he refused to share. Our daughter gets excited over the time line of the Exodus and who the Pharoah involved really was.

I wish you were my history teacher. Flunked it both in junior high and in high school. All I got were a bunch of dates thrown at me tied to events I didn’t care about at the time. The lectures were beyond boring. It was just about impossible for me to remember the dates for the exams. I am now pretty ignorant and stunted in this area. Your way of presenting juicy tidbits would have cemented things in my brain.

 

[Anastacia]

It wasnt until I was in college that i had a professor who made history exciting. I homeschooled and that's where I also learned a lot too. We focused on Ancient Egypt and the Exodus for a few years. My oldest daughter ate it up and went on to major in History (focus on the Renaissance and the Reformation!), and my son is a complete WW2 buff. They're a lot smarter than I am. I think some people just really have a mind for history but my mind is not nearly so comprehensive!

I love the tidbit @Margery gave about the printing press being invented right before the Reformation!! I had no idea! I've heard God also made sure the very detailed Greek language was dominant just in time for when the New Testament was being written down. I cant wait to know all these cool miracles of perfect timing when we have eternity with Him!
I've always hoped that's what 1 Corinthians 13:12 means where it says:
"now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known."

But in any case, at least we're watching history being made-- with some advance notice from His Word!! And I really appreciate that I get to learn from all of you!

 

[Margery]

It wasnt until I was in college that i had a professor who made history exciting. I homeschooled and that's where I also learned a lot too. We focused on Ancient Egypt and the Exodus for a few years. My oldest daughter ate it up and went on to major in History (focus on the Renaissance and the Reformation!), and my son is a complete WW2 buff. They're a lot smarter than I am. I think some people just really have a mind for history but my mind is not nearly so comprehensive!

I love the tidbit @Margery gave about the printing press being invented right before the Reformation!! I had no idea! I've heard God also made sure the very detailed Greek language was dominant just in time for when the New Testament was being written down. I cant wait to know all these cool miracles of perfect timing when we have eternity with Him!
I've always hoped that's what 1 Corinthians 13:12 means where it says:
"now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known."

But in any case, at least we're watching history being made-- with some advance notice from His Word!! And I really appreciate that I get to learn from all of you!

1440
The Printing press was invented by Gutenberg about mid 1400s. This article has some lovely tidbits and places it at around 1440. Treasures of the McDonald Collection - Special Collections & Archives Research Center

1453
1453 Constantinople falls to the Ottoman Turks causing a mass exodus, and people carry out books and scrolls in their possessions, and flee to the west. Long forgotten works are brought to light again, launching the Renaissance around that time, and that reaches it's height soon after. Around the time the Renaissance hits it's peak, is about the time Luther whacks a few nails in the door with an incendiary document that launches the Reformation.

1454
Gutenberg puts his printing press to commercial use printing the very same indulgences for the Catholic church that Luther got all upset about a few years later. That was 1454. The Popes I guess didn't have a problem with the sale of their indulgences, but big problems once people got going printing BIBLES for their own use, the scofflaws!!! How DARE they read the Bible!!!


1492
Aug 3 1492 Columbus sets sail. Queen Isabella of Spain finances his expedition. Spain would plunder the "new world" of it's gold, creating instant wealth for Spain at the time. The New World would provide a haven for Jews and Protestant groups wanting religious freedom to mind their own business and follow God.

THAT SAME YEAR but a few months earlier-- March the 31st of 1492 Isabella and her hubs Ferdinand the second expel the Jews, just after freeing Spain from the last bits of Muslim rulership. This launches the Sephardic Jews across North Africa and the Middle East from Spain where they had lived since the Roman Expulsion in 70 AD when they destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem.

1517
By Oct 31 in 1517 or 63 short years later after the printing press in 1454, Luther nailed his 95 Theses- (he was FURIOUS with the sale of indulgences) to the door of Wittenburg Cathedral launching the Protestant Reformation. I guess the indulgences were a hot commodity and with the invention of the printing press, it saved the lazy monks from the trouble of writing their "get out of purgatory free" cards for the unwary buyers.


I double checked the dates to be sure, but look at the closeness.

God did so much to ensure the Bible got out to the maximum number of people. As you said, when Greek was dominant and Roman roads were at their peak. Travel was safer and easier then than it was for many centuries afterwards.

He ensures that Gutenberg gets going on that machine and gets the funds to keep going, and improve it using the very reason (sale of indulgences) that would launch the Reformation after a certain crabby German who loved God and His Word more than the Pope got going and got everyone upset.

God turned the world upside down and right way up.

He is truly the God of history, and it truly is His Story.

 

[mattfivefour]

He is truly the God of history, and it truly is His Story.

Truer words have never been written, Marjorie! I think that's why Satan hates history, at least true history and history in context. As with everything else, that old serpent only likes history when he can corrupt it for evil purposes.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Truer words have never been written, Marjorie! I think that's why Satan hates history, at least true history and history in context. As with everything else, that old serpent only likes history when he can corrupt it for evil purposes.

Isn't it ironic that all the lefties and do gooders right now are blind to the fact that they are acting like communists and failed to remember the destruction and death that this idealogy caused when it was birthed

 

[Margery]

Isn't it ironic that all the lefties and do gooders right now are blind to the fact that they are acting like communists and failed to remember the destruction and death that this idealogy caused when it was birthed

I think like Adrian said, it's on purpose whether they realize or not. There is such an assault on real truthful history. I think Satan made it boring in school with dry dates and dumbed down history books. Then in the last few decades it's been a retelling of history to outright change the actual events. It's way beyond the silliness that only the victors write the history books so therefore the losers need to have equal time.

Enough bystanders eg Josephus were able to write the history so that it's not just the victors in some war re telling it all, spinning it their way. The 1611 project and the idea of collective guilt such as the concept that the Crusaders (who did do some very nasty things to Jews and other Christians) are considered the bad guys when it was ISLAM that was trying to conquer the world by the sword.

The Crusades were a response against Islamic invasions. The Muslims would capture Christian children, brainwash them after giving them the usual accept Islam or die on the spot, then when they were old enough, they put them in the FRONT of the armies so their relations wouldn't want to kill them. They were called the Janissaries.

Christians gave people a choice. Islam never did. Yet modern historians equate the two. They turn a blind eye to the heap of Muslim historical atrocities and then hyperfocus on the few Christian historical atrocities.

The truth about the Holocaust is covered up, in a snowstorm of "well other groups don't think so, therefore it's controversial". The true origins of the Palestinians are covered up in favour of a PR stunt invented by Yasser Arafat.

In every classroom, this indoctrination is going on.

History is literally a war going on between Truth and a Lie just as it is with Evolution, just as it is with comparative religions or philosophy vs Christianity and Judaism.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Something I'm wondering-- related to Ps. 83 and Jeremiah 49...

Considering that
Jordan made peace with Israel in 1994,
and Jordan is where the Jewish remnant goes to hide during the Tribulation,
and Jordan is one of the countries the AC does not subdue (Dan. 11:42)...
When would (or did) Jer. 49:1-2 happen where Ammon/Jordan is destroyed/desolate?
And wouldnt they have to turn against Israel in the near future if Ps 83 truly is a war? But if they turn against Israel soon, it doesn't seem to line up with them resisting the AC and the Jews fleeing to Petra.

Maybe God protects them from the AC because they allow the Jewish people to flee to Petra.