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Are Old Testament Saints In the Rapture? And do the OT Saints Come to the Bema Seat With the Church?

TCC

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I'm reading a book right now...which means i should make my way over to that "What are you reading" thread...i have been meaning to. But i am reading the following book:

A Heroe's Welcome. The Doctrine of Future Rewards and the Bema Seat of Christ. By Ronald Barnes.

I am reading it because in the American Reformed tradition, that line is blurred. The focus is on if what we do for the Lord affirms us as a believer, and that the reward is Christ. As the saying goes, "Isn't He enough?" He is. But what comes with that seems to also be rewards...for that comes with Him as Him the one we come to. I'm kind of taken back even to consider how incredible it is of God to actually have rewards as a motivation. Well i did not post this to get into all of that. I have quite a bit to share in that respect though. But in the book I am reading the author says that the Bema Seat is just for the church. I never really thought about it much before because of my upbringing, but is that true? lol. So what about the dead in Christ who rise first? Do they have something different? Is there a way we know they don't share in the Bema Seat with the Church? Please forgive if this was posted before. It's just i never really got here before. In addition i was wondering what we do with Rev 20:4? Anyone?

So what prompted this besides the book is @Andy C post in the Is President Trump the Antichrist? thread. Andy was going a completely different direction, but did remind us the church won't be here when the AC comes. It's just like me to be in a theme about the AC and instead come up asking about the rapture...lol. But as some might have gathered, i tend to lean toward the beauties of God in His wrapping up of the ages. So i reckon this is par for the course for me. So i''d love to hear some takes on this. Blessings.

 
It would seem the below indicates only those in Christ, which is the entire church, will be who goes up in the rapture, not the Old Testament saints.

1 Thessalonians 1:

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are leftwill be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.


The below verses in Daniel I believe could be referring to the end of the tribulation when Old Testament believers/non believers will be resurrected.

Daniel 12:1-2

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.




The sheep and goats judgement is only for those who survived the tribulation.

Matthew 25:31

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdomprepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 
Good question, i don't really have an answer on that as i've heard 2 opinions

1. That the OT saints will go with us in the rapture
2. The OT saints be at the sheep and goat judgement because they weren't alive in the age of grace after Jesus passing

I'd be interested to hear others thoughts as well
Maybe I am misunderstanding the question as it would not be the first time, but here it what I believe. :)

Yes, the Old Testament Saints will go with us in the Rapture as per the Bible verses below.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note:
To be more specific in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 above it is the bodies of the dead in Christ that rise during the Rapture. Their soul and Spirit are already with Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

As far as the different Christian dispensations, to me they are just different experiences for Christians. The Old Testament Saints and those in the Tribulation mostly believe because of signs. Those of us in the Grace age mostly believe by faith alone. While the verse below is not referring to salvation, it is a principle that I believe applies.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Because we in the Grace Age are not given signs (Much) there is not as much required of us to prove our belief as those who are given signs (Much).

My understanding is salvation is really the same for all which is to believe in the Savior (Jesus) for salvation. So why is our time called the grace age? Because while it is faith in Jesus that saves in every dispensation we are not required any proof of our faith. For instance those in the Tribulation must prove their faith by not receiving the mark which means persecution for them. James makes the point that God asked Abraham to prove his faith in the verses below.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Right or wrong that is what I believe or you could say my two cents! (y)
 
I've always thought they would go at the sheep/goats judgment, the reasoning being that the 'reward' that the OT saints looked for was what they understood as the 'kingdom,' that being the time when the Messiah, then unknown to them, would reign forever. Today, we understand that time period as the Millennium, when Jesus and David will reign supreme. So, in that line of understanding, the expected promise (the Kingdom/Millennium) matches the reality. The rapture is for church-age saints only so that's out. Heaven or the eternal state seems possible but I still think the Millennium is a better match for their expectations.
 
The rapture is for church-age saints only so that's out.
Why do you say the Rapture is for the Church Age saints only? 🤔

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul speaks of an event which is the Lord descending with a shout after which the dead (bodies) in Christ rise first. Then in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Paul says that we who are alive are caught up together with them. Who is them? The Old Testament saints.

The bodies of the Old Testament saints will be resurrected but our bodies will just be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


So the Old Testament Saints are clearly included in the Rapture. :noidea:
 
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Why do you say the Rapture is for the Church Age saints only? 🤔

Daniel 12:2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

The rapture takes all believers to be with the Lord so no everlasting contempt. Could refer I guess, to the eternal state, post Millennium, but, at that time, my understanding is that the only people who are sent to everlasting shame are the Millennium unbelievers. So, I see it like this ... The Rapture is for church-age believers only, The Sheep/Goats is the separation of believers/unbelievers during the Tribulation but also during the OT time. The Last Judgment (Great White Throne) is for unbelievers only. The Sheep/Goats is the only judgment that involves a judgment or separation between believers and non-believers.
 
Yes, the Old Testament Saints will go with us in the Rapture as per the Bible verses below.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Can Old Testament believers be considered ‘dead in Christ”, since this is a term that applies to the church? Old Testament saints are not part of the church.
 
Why do you say the Rapture is for the Church Age saints only? 🤔

Daniel 12:2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
I don't get your point. :noidea:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Daniel is speaking of the time of the end which is after the Rapture and speaks of what will happen to some. How does that change what Paul says will happen during the Rapture? 🤔

Please explain to me your version of what Paul is saying about the dead in Christ in the verses I listed in 1 Thessalonians before and again below. :noidea:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul speaks of an event which is the Lord descending with a shout after which the dead (bodies) in Christ rise first. Then in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Paul says that we who are alive are caught up together with them. Who is them? The Old Testament saints.
 
Can Old Testament believers be considered ‘dead in Christ”, since this is a term that applies to the church? Old Testament saints are not part of the church.
Absolutely! (y)

Notice that Paul did not say the dead in Jesus which is the only name we in the Grace Age can be saved by.

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


While the Old Testament believers did not know the messiah's name, they still believed in the coming Savior which is how they got saved. As Paul is speaking to the church, they also understood that there were believers in the Old Testament. Paul is speaking of anyone who believed in and accepted the true God who Jesus in the flesh is. If not at the Rapture, when do the Old Testament Saints get their new bodies? :noidea:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 
I don't get your point. :noidea:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Daniel is speaking of the time of the end which is after the Rapture and speaks of what will happen to some. How does that change what Paul says will happen during the Rapture? 🤔

Please explain to me your version of what Paul is saying about the dead in Christ in the verses I listed in 1 Thessalonians before and again below. :noidea:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul speaks of an event which is the Lord descending with a shout after which the dead (bodies) in Christ rise first. Then in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Paul says that we who are alive are caught up together with them. Who is them? The Old Testament saints.


This is from GotQuestions.org.

The Bible states that New Testament saints who have died will be resurrected at the event we call the rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). The Bible is less clear about when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. It is our view that Old Testament believers will be joined to their resurrected bodies at the end of the tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom (Isaiah 26:19; Hosea 13:14).
 
I think, based on how one interprets the relevant scriptures, a reasonable case can be made for both possibilities -- the rapture only for the Church and the rapture including the OT saints. But, of course, the decision is God's and, to be frank, entirely irrelevant to us.These are the topics that can divide saints, yet have no relevance to how we love and serve Christ.

I think Satan loves it when we argue about these things. I sometimes wonder if God purposely allows this in order to try our sanctification. These disagreements easily poke our human nature and the old man rears his head, giving us the opportunity to crucify him again, or is it love for Jesus.

Certainly, this one is an interesting topic to think on. But let's never allow it to cause bitterness, anger or frustration in it divergent views. I'm not saying that anyone is, but I sense the possibility.
 
Chronological Sequence of the Rapture

1. The Lord himself shall descend from heaven
2. The Lord will give a shout, a command for the resurrection and translation to occur.
3. Michael the archangel will repeat the command
4. With Michael’s repetition of the command the trumpet will sound, and the Rapture itself will commence
5. The dead in Christ will rise first
6. Then the living shall be caught up in the clouds
7. The resurrected will meed the Lord in the air and will forever more be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
 
Who Will be Raptured? The answer is the Church. Those who died in faith previous to the Church age will have to wait a bit longer to get their new bodies.

From Footsteps of the Messiah, pgs 142-149, by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

B. The Rapture of the Church

In this section, the rapture will be discussed in detail, followed by the timing of this event.

1. The Actual Event
Three key passages need to be studied for an understanding of the rapture. They are John 14:1-3, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, and I Corinthians 15:50-58.

a. John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

While this passage does not detail the rapture, it contains the promise of it: Yeshua promised to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time or the circumstances, only the fact that He will come for His saints. The purpose is to take them to where He was then going. Since Yeshua was then going to heaven, this is a coming to take the saints to heaven and not to the earth. This is important because in post tribulationism, the saints meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to the earth. But that is not the promise here. Yeshua is coming to take the saints to heaven. This fits well with pretribulationism.

b. I Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Yeshua will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage describes the course of the rapture. In verses 13-15, Paul answered a question that was raised in Thessalonica: Do believers who have died miss out on the benefits of the rapture? The people who asked this question understood that there was a rapture to come, but they did not understand how dead saints would be involved in the event. Apparently, while Paul had been with them, he had taught some truths concerning the rapture as it related to the living, but not to the dead. But now, some believers had passed away, and those they left behind were distressed not knowing what the future had in store for them. So, Paul comforted the bereaved family members with the truth that dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture; in fact, they will receive them first.

Speaking of the death of believers, Paul said that they were “asleep” (v. 13). When used as a synonym for death, the term “sleep” is applied to believers only, never to unbelievers. Thus, the Bible views the death of believers as a temporary suspension of physical activity until the believer awakens at the rapture. Just as physical sleep is temporary (a temporary suspension of physical activity until one awakens, yet there is no suspension of mental activity), so is death: It is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one awakens at the resurrection. Therefore, I Thessalonians 4:13 does not teach “soul sleeping,” for there is no cessation of spirit-soul activity, only of physical activity.

Having stated that the dead believers benefit from the rapture before the living do, Paul spells out the chronological sequence of the rapture in seven stages to show why this is true (vv. 16-17). First, the Lord himself shall descend from heaven. At some point in the future, Yeshua will come out of the heaven of heavens and descend into the atmospheric heavens.

Second, the Lord’s descent will happen with a shout. The Greek word used is that of a command of a military leader who comes out of his tent and issues an order. One day, the Chief Commander will come out of His heavenly tent and give the order for the resurrection and the translation to occur.

Third, the Lord’s descent will also happen with the voice of the archangel. Angels are often used to put God’s plan into motion. Michael the Archangel will be used in the case of the rapture. The content of what the voice says is not stated. But if known military procedure can be applied to this situation, then this is simply a repetition of the original order. The sub-commander repeats the order (the “shout”) of the chief commander. Yeshua will give the command for the course of the rapture to begin, and it is Michael’s task to set it into motion, so he repeats the command.

Fourth, the Lord’s descent will also happen with the trump of God. The sound of the trumpet was used as a summons either to battle or to worship. With Michael’s repetition of the command, the trumpet sounds, and this triggers the rapture itself. Thus, this trumpet serves as a summons for the plan to get into motion.

Fifth, the dead in Messiah shall rise first. This is the resurrection, and it is why the dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture. To the contrary, they will begin to enjoy the benefits of the rapture first. The expression “in Messiah” limits the resurrection at the time of the rapture to those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body, which only began in Acts 2. Thus, this resurrection of dead saints is to be limited to church saints only. The Old Testament saints will be resurrected at a later point in God’s prophetic program.

Sixth, then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds. The resurrection of the dead saints is followed by the translation of the living saints. Every believer without exception will be removed from the earth and will be united with the Lord Yeshua in the heavens. The living believers will be caught up with the dead ones. The expression “to be caught up” is the source of the term “rapture.” The Greek word used in I Thessalonians 4:17 is harpazo. When the verse was translated into Latin, the word rapio was used. The English word “rapture” comes from this Latin source. Charles Ryrie explains:

Rapture is a state or experience of being carried away. The English word comes from a Latin word, rapio, which means to seize or snatch in relation to an ecstasy of spirit or the actual removal from one place to another. In other words, it means to be carried away in spirit or in body. The Rapture of the church means the carrying away of the church from earth to heaven.[32]

Seventh, the raptured saints will meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord. Both the resurrected dead believers and translated living believers will meet the Messiah in the air. Once they have been united with Him in the air, they will permanently remain with Him and return with Him into heaven, as already promised in John 14:1-3.

It should be noted that I Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not provide details as to the timing of the rapture, as it focuses on the chronological sequence in which the events will occur.

c. I Corinthians 15:50-58
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua Messiah. 58 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

This passage deals with the change in the nature of the bodies of the raptured saints. Verse 50 declares the necessity of this change, stating that flesh and blood are unable to inherit the kingdom of God, and decay cannot inherit immortality. The background to this statement is found in Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

This is further developed in Genesis 3:17-19:

17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have hearkened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the herb of the field; 19 in the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.

Because of sin, man has become subject to corruption and mortality. All men are seen as guilty, by imputation, of participating in Adam’s sin, according to Romans 5:12-14:

12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: 13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

Mankind is living under the sentence of death, where his physical body is subject to corruption and mortality. The sin nature is in it, and the results of sin are evident in the death of the body. This kind of body, subject to sin, mortality, death, and corruption, cannot enter into the eternal state. A change will be necessary (resurrection or translation) before the bodies can enter the kingdom of God.

In verses 51-52, the change is described. The emphasis is on the rapidity of the event. It will be done in an instant. The Greek word for “instant” is atomos. The word “atom” originates from this term. The emphasis is that the change will happen in an “atom” of time. It will be that quick. Furthermore, it will be in the twinkling of an eye. This is not a reference to blinking, but rather to a sudden flash of recognition. It is like seeing a person, and then in a sudden flash recognizing who he is. It is this sudden flash of recognition that is meant by the “twinkling of an eye,” and so, the expression also emphasizes the rapidity of the change.

The event is said to happen at the time of the last trump. Both midtribulationists and posttribulationists try to identify this trump with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation. However, when Paul wrote I Corinthians, Revelation had not been written yet. The Corinthians would not have had any knowledge of seven trumpets. But Paul used the definite article “the” before “last trump,” and so he must have expected his readers to know what he was talking about. The only knowledge they would have of trumpets are those spoken of in the Old Testament. The last trump refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing shofars during this feast. There are a series of short trumpet sounds followed by one long trumpet blast which is called the tekiah gedolah, “the great trumpet blast.” This is what Paul meant by “the last trump.” As such, it says nothing concerning the timing of the rapture; only that the rapture, whenever it comes, will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets. Furthermore, the last trump is the same as the trump of God found in I Thessalonians 4:16. This verse explained that at the sound of the last trump, the dead are raised as incorruptible, and the living will be changed. According to verse 52, the problem that keeps the dead body out of heaven, corruption, will be changed through the resurrection, and the body will become incorruptible. The mortal living will put on immortality through translation.

The nature of the glorified body is not the subject of much revelation. What is revealed clearly about the resurrection body is found in I Corinthians 15:35-49 and 53, where Paul made six points:

It is an incorruptible body (v. 42).
It is a glorified body (v. 43).[33]
It is a body of resurrection power (v. 43).
It is a spiritual body (vv. 44-46).
It is a heavenly body (vv. 47-49).
It is also an immortal body (v. 53).
It is possible that additional information as to the nature of the glorified body of the believer may be gleaned from a study of the nature of Yeshua’s resurrected body. But some caution must be used, as this source of information has one major drawback: It is not always easy to determine if what was true of the body of Yeshua was due to His resurrection or due to His deity. Thus, some of the following observations concerning His body could possibly be true of all resurrected bodies. But they may not all be true, for some may be related to His divinity. The following list summarizes these attributes of Yeshua’s body:

✡ Yeshua’s voice was recognized as being the same as the one He had before His death and resurrection (Jn. 20:16).
✡ His physical features were recognized, though not always immediately (Jn. 20:26-29; 21:7).
✡ It was a very real body of flesh and bone, since it was embraceable (Jn. 20:17, 27).
✡ The resurrected Messiah was able to suddenly disappear (Lk. 24:31) and go through walls (Jn. 20:19).
✡ It was a body that was able to eat food (Lk. 24:41-43).
A number of these attributes may be true of all resurrected bodies, but whether this is the case cannot be known until the rapture.

First Corinthians 15:54-58 explains that the change from corruption to incorruption and from mortality to immortality results in the final victory over death.
 
I think, based on how one interprets the relevant scriptures, a reasonable case can be made for both possibilities -- the rapture only for the Church and the rapture including the OT saints. But, of course, the decision is God's and, to be frank, entirely irrelevant to us.These are the topics that can divide saints, yet have no relevance to how we love and serve Christ.

I think Satan loves it when we argue about these things. I sometimes wonder if God purposely allows this in order to try our sanctification. These disagreements easily poke our human nature and the old man rears his head, giving us the opportunity to crucify him again, or is it love for Jesus.

Certainly, this one is an interesting topic to think on. But let's never allow it to cause bitterness, anger or frustration in it divergent views. I'm not saying that anyone is, but I sense the possibility.
I did not note any arguing on this topic, just an exchange of differing views. Its really hard to truly debate certain topics that are not totally clear in scripture, especially on topics of future events.
 
Who Will be Raptured? The answer is the Church. Those who died in faith previous to the Church age will have to wait a bit longer to get their new bodies.

From Footsteps of the Messiah, pgs 142-149, by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

B. The Rapture of the Church

In this section, the rapture will be discussed in detail, followed by the timing of this event.

1. The Actual Event
Three key passages need to be studied for an understanding of the rapture. They are John 14:1-3, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, and I Corinthians 15:50-58.

a. John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

While this passage does not detail the rapture, it contains the promise of it: Yeshua promised to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time or the circumstances, only the fact that He will come for His saints. The purpose is to take them to where He was then going. Since Yeshua was then going to heaven, this is a coming to take the saints to heaven and not to the earth. This is important because in post tribulationism, the saints meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to the earth. But that is not the promise here. Yeshua is coming to take the saints to heaven. This fits well with pretribulationism.

b. I Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Yeshua will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage describes the course of the rapture. In verses 13-15, Paul answered a question that was raised in Thessalonica: Do believers who have died miss out on the benefits of the rapture? The people who asked this question understood that there was a rapture to come, but they did not understand how dead saints would be involved in the event. Apparently, while Paul had been with them, he had taught some truths concerning the rapture as it related to the living, but not to the dead. But now, some believers had passed away, and those they left behind were distressed not knowing what the future had in store for them. So, Paul comforted the bereaved family members with the truth that dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture; in fact, they will receive them first.

Speaking of the death of believers, Paul said that they were “asleep” (v. 13). When used as a synonym for death, the term “sleep” is applied to believers only, never to unbelievers. Thus, the Bible views the death of believers as a temporary suspension of physical activity until the believer awakens at the rapture. Just as physical sleep is temporary (a temporary suspension of physical activity until one awakens, yet there is no suspension of mental activity), so is death: It is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one awakens at the resurrection. Therefore, I Thessalonians 4:13 does not teach “soul sleeping,” for there is no cessation of spirit-soul activity, only of physical activity.

Having stated that the dead believers benefit from the rapture before the living do, Paul spells out the chronological sequence of the rapture in seven stages to show why this is true (vv. 16-17). First, the Lord himself shall descend from heaven. At some point in the future, Yeshua will come out of the heaven of heavens and descend into the atmospheric heavens.

Second, the Lord’s descent will happen with a shout. The Greek word used is that of a command of a military leader who comes out of his tent and issues an order. One day, the Chief Commander will come out of His heavenly tent and give the order for the resurrection and the translation to occur.

Third, the Lord’s descent will also happen with the voice of the archangel. Angels are often used to put God’s plan into motion. Michael the Archangel will be used in the case of the rapture. The content of what the voice says is not stated. But if known military procedure can be applied to this situation, then this is simply a repetition of the original order. The sub-commander repeats the order (the “shout”) of the chief commander. Yeshua will give the command for the course of the rapture to begin, and it is Michael’s task to set it into motion, so he repeats the command.

Fourth, the Lord’s descent will also happen with the trump of God. The sound of the trumpet was used as a summons either to battle or to worship. With Michael’s repetition of the command, the trumpet sounds, and this triggers the rapture itself. Thus, this trumpet serves as a summons for the plan to get into motion.

Fifth, the dead in Messiah shall rise first. This is the resurrection, and it is why the dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture. To the contrary, they will begin to enjoy the benefits of the rapture first. The expression “in Messiah” limits the resurrection at the time of the rapture to those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body, which only began in Acts 2. Thus, this resurrection of dead saints is to be limited to church saints only. The Old Testament saints will be resurrected at a later point in God’s prophetic program.

Sixth, then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds. The resurrection of the dead saints is followed by the translation of the living saints. Every believer without exception will be removed from the earth and will be united with the Lord Yeshua in the heavens. The living believers will be caught up with the dead ones. The expression “to be caught up” is the source of the term “rapture.” The Greek word used in I Thessalonians 4:17 is harpazo. When the verse was translated into Latin, the word rapio was used. The English word “rapture” comes from this Latin source. Charles Ryrie explains:

Rapture is a state or experience of being carried away. The English word comes from a Latin word, rapio, which means to seize or snatch in relation to an ecstasy of spirit or the actual removal from one place to another. In other words, it means to be carried away in spirit or in body. The Rapture of the church means the carrying away of the church from earth to heaven.[32]

Seventh, the raptured saints will meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord. Both the resurrected dead believers and translated living believers will meet the Messiah in the air. Once they have been united with Him in the air, they will permanently remain with Him and return with Him into heaven, as already promised in John 14:1-3.

It should be noted that I Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not provide details as to the timing of the rapture, as it focuses on the chronological sequence in which the events will occur.

c. I Corinthians 15:50-58
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua Messiah. 58 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

This passage deals with the change in the nature of the bodies of the raptured saints. Verse 50 declares the necessity of this change, stating that flesh and blood are unable to inherit the kingdom of God, and decay cannot inherit immortality. The background to this statement is found in Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

This is further developed in Genesis 3:17-19:

17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have hearkened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the herb of the field; 19 in the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.

Because of sin, man has become subject to corruption and mortality. All men are seen as guilty, by imputation, of participating in Adam’s sin, according to Romans 5:12-14:

12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: 13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

Mankind is living under the sentence of death, where his physical body is subject to corruption and mortality. The sin nature is in it, and the results of sin are evident in the death of the body. This kind of body, subject to sin, mortality, death, and corruption, cannot enter into the eternal state. A change will be necessary (resurrection or translation) before the bodies can enter the kingdom of God.

In verses 51-52, the change is described. The emphasis is on the rapidity of the event. It will be done in an instant. The Greek word for “instant” is atomos. The word “atom” originates from this term. The emphasis is that the change will happen in an “atom” of time. It will be that quick. Furthermore, it will be in the twinkling of an eye. This is not a reference to blinking, but rather to a sudden flash of recognition. It is like seeing a person, and then in a sudden flash recognizing who he is. It is this sudden flash of recognition that is meant by the “twinkling of an eye,” and so, the expression also emphasizes the rapidity of the change.

The event is said to happen at the time of the last trump. Both midtribulationists and posttribulationists try to identify this trump with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation. However, when Paul wrote I Corinthians, Revelation had not been written yet. The Corinthians would not have had any knowledge of seven trumpets. But Paul used the definite article “the” before “last trump,” and so he must have expected his readers to know what he was talking about. The only knowledge they would have of trumpets are those spoken of in the Old Testament. The last trump refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing shofars during this feast. There are a series of short trumpet sounds followed by one long trumpet blast which is called the tekiah gedolah, “the great trumpet blast.” This is what Paul meant by “the last trump.” As such, it says nothing concerning the timing of the rapture; only that the rapture, whenever it comes, will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets. Furthermore, the last trump is the same as the trump of God found in I Thessalonians 4:16. This verse explained that at the sound of the last trump, the dead are raised as incorruptible, and the living will be changed. According to verse 52, the problem that keeps the dead body out of heaven, corruption, will be changed through the resurrection, and the body will become incorruptible. The mortal living will put on immortality through translation.

The nature of the glorified body is not the subject of much revelation. What is revealed clearly about the resurrection body is found in I Corinthians 15:35-49 and 53, where Paul made six points:

It is an incorruptible body (v. 42).
It is a glorified body (v. 43).[33]
It is a body of resurrection power (v. 43).
It is a spiritual body (vv. 44-46).
It is a heavenly body (vv. 47-49).
It is also an immortal body (v. 53).
It is possible that additional information as to the nature of the glorified body of the believer may be gleaned from a study of the nature of Yeshua’s resurrected body. But some caution must be used, as this source of information has one major drawback: It is not always easy to determine if what was true of the body of Yeshua was due to His resurrection or due to His deity. Thus, some of the following observations concerning His body could possibly be true of all resurrected bodies. But they may not all be true, for some may be related to His divinity. The following list summarizes these attributes of Yeshua’s body:

✡ Yeshua’s voice was recognized as being the same as the one He had before His death and resurrection (Jn. 20:16).
✡ His physical features were recognized, though not always immediately (Jn. 20:26-29; 21:7).
✡ It was a very real body of flesh and bone, since it was embraceable (Jn. 20:17, 27).
✡ The resurrected Messiah was able to suddenly disappear (Lk. 24:31) and go through walls (Jn. 20:19).
✡ It was a body that was able to eat food (Lk. 24:41-43).
A number of these attributes may be true of all resurrected bodies, but whether this is the case cannot be known until the rapture.

First Corinthians 15:54-58 explains that the change from corruption to incorruption and from mortality to immortality results in the final victory over death.
I always enjoy reading from Arnold. I need to dust off my copy of Footsteps of The Messiah and read it as often as I did in the past.
 
This is from GotQuestions.org.

The Bible states that New Testament saints who have died will be resurrected at the event we call the rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). The Bible is less clear about when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. It is our view that Old Testament believers will be joined to their resurrected bodies at the end of the tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom (Isaiah 26:19; Hosea 13:14).
As Mattfivefour stated, it is not worth arguing or debating about. So I will make this last point for those who agree with me and just want to know how I would respond, not to get into a debate with anyone who disagrees. 😊

In the three verses below Paul is reassuring those he is speaking to that their relatives and friends who are believers that have died will be resurrected.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


In the next two verses Paul states that the dead in Christ will be Raptured before those who are still alive.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


In the next verse Paul states why he has stated what he did, as it should comfort them who are concerned about their relatives and friends that have already died.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So I am sure some who Paul is speaking with have relatives or friends that died before Jesus arrived. If Paul is not including them, don't you think someone would have asked what happens to them? Also, what would be the purpose of Jesus choosing a different time to resurrect the bodies of the Old Testament Saints. :noidea:

OK, I am done and will not continue to make my point as it is not a salvation issue.

God Bless! :)
 
Fifth, the dead in Messiah shall rise first. This is the resurrection, and it is why the dead believers will not miss out on the benefits of the rapture. To the contrary, they will begin to enjoy the benefits of the rapture first. The expression “in Messiah” limits the resurrection at the time of the rapture to those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body, which only began in Acts 2. Thus, this resurrection of dead saints is to be limited to church saints only. The Old Testament saints will be resurrected at a later point in God’s prophetic program.
:100percent:

Certainly, this one is an interesting topic to think on.
It is fun to think about.

I tend to agree with this:

It is our view that Old Testament believers will be joined to their resurrected bodies at the end of the tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom
Just think of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob’s presence in Israel… Ruth… King David… Hannah… Samuel, etc.
:meet:
 
It would seem the below indicates only those in Christ, which is the entire church, will be who goes up in the rapture, not the Old Testament saints.

1 Thessalonians 1:

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are leftwill be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.


The below verses in Daniel I believe could be referring to the end of the tribulation when Old Testament believers/non believers will be resurrected.

Daniel 12:1-2

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.




The sheep and goats judgement is only for those who survived the tribulation.

Matthew 25:31

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdomprepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Thanks Andy. I will have you know sir, this is the first time I recall ever having this thought. Which on some accounts is no surprise. But I have tended to ask questions over the course of my life that tend to be where not much path has been worn. In this case, in asking and in how you provided the answer, it was addressed in such a way, that honestly this is the first time I have this thought...lol. So thanks. :) And that thought is: I had always thought that the dead who rise first would be all those who have died previously that are saved. But it does say, "in Him." So that likely means just the church. Amen. It could by extension mean that any who died prior to the church would be in Him because there is no one else to be in by which to be saved. But, it could also be a way of stating just the church too. And since we have "the last will be first" motif, it would seem that the "1st resurrection" is in two parts:

1) The church (with the dead first rising--then the living at that time)
2) Old Testament saints which seems to be implied by Daniel 12 and Rev 20:4. Which is still prior to the great white throne judgement because those resurrected then will all be unbelievers.

So does 1 and 2 seem to jive with everyone? That to me would make sense why Rev 20:4 does what it does. And that the church would rise first because we believed on Jesus and Israel (as a whole) did not.
 
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