With or without arrows

[Kaatje]

Rev. 6:1,2
‭And‭ I saw‭‭ when‭ the Lamb‭ opened‭‭ one‭ of‭ the seals‭, and‭ I heard‭‭,
as it were‭ the noise‭ of thunder‭, one‭ of‭ the four‭ beasts‭ saying‭‭, Come‭‭ and‭ see‭‭.‭
‭And‭ I saw‭‭, and‭ behold‭‭ a white‭ horse‭: and‭ he that sat‭‭ on‭ him‭ had‭‭ a bow‭;
and‭ a crown‭ was given‭‭ unto him‭: and‭ he went forth‭‭ conquering‭‭, and‭ to‭ conquer‭‭.

Many Bible prophecy teachers zoom in on the fact that the rider on the white horse has a bow but no arrows.
They say he would bring peace through strength, and lean mostly on diplomacy and fear.

But is this true?

The original Greek word used is: "toxin".
The modern terms "toxic" and "toxin" derive from the ancient Greek word for "bow", toxon, from Old Persian *taxa-, "an arrow".

Arrow poison - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In our laguages, we recognise that word, in words like toxic, and they have to do with poison.
Appearently in the old days of warefare the tips of the arrows were dipped in poison, to harm the enemy better.

It seems that the word "toxin" became the word for the complete package of a "bow-with-poisoned-arrows".

So, the rider who has a "toxin", is not a man without fire-power, but a mighty warrior like Nimrod, going out conquering‭‭, and‭ to‭ conquer‭‭.

What do you think?
Does it make a difference whether the rider has a bow or not?

 

[Ronnie]

It is beyond me.

This is what AI has:
In the Book of Revelation, the Pale Rider (often associated with the fourth horseman) is depicted with a bow but no arrows, which is generally interpreted as symbolizing a "bloodless" victory or conquest achieved through deception, famine, or disease, rather than direct, violent warfare;the lack of arrows signifies that the destruction will be widespread and pervasive without the need for overt combat.

Key points about this interpretation:

• Symbolic meaning of the bow:
  A bow is often used as a symbol of power and ability to strike from a distance, representing the subtle and widespread nature of the devastation brought by the Pale Rider.
  
• Absence of arrows signifies lack of direct violence:
  Without arrows, the bow is rendered ineffective in a traditional sense, suggesting that the Pale Rider's conquest will not be through overt warfare but through more insidious means like disease or famine.

 

[mattfivefour]

Good post, @Kaatje. I think those who try to make something out of the fact that arrows aren't mentioned miss the point. A bow symbolized military might; the stephanos crown represented victory. They are simply symbols portraying the fact that the rider will be both a military leader and a conqueror. It's a mistake to try and stretch a metaphor beyond it's obvious meaning.

 

[Ronnie]

I have given this matter a lot of thought, I woke up this morning thinking about it.

Perhaps the quiver of arrows was considered part n parcel wit the bow that there was no need to mention them.

 

[Tall Timbers]

When I read about the rider on the White horse I understand that when the AC arrives on the scene it will be with authority and the promise of peace (peace through strength). That quickly changes, however, when the next seal is broken. Satan won't be wasting much time with the peace business, he prefers to kill and destroy.

 

[Ronnie]

And deceive!

 

[TCC]

It is beyond me.

This is what AI has:
In the Book of Revelation, the Pale Rider (often associated with the fourth horseman) is depicted with a bow but no arrows, which is generally interpreted as symbolizing a "bloodless" victory or conquest achieved through deception, famine, or disease, rather than direct, violent warfare;the lack of arrows signifies that the destruction will be widespread and pervasive without the need for overt combat.

Key points about this interpretation:

• Symbolic meaning of the bow:
  A bow is often used as a symbol of power and ability to strike from a distance, representing the subtle and widespread nature of the devastation brought by the Pale Rider.
• Absence of arrows signifies lack of direct violence:
  Without arrows, the bow is rendered ineffective in a traditional sense, suggesting that the Pale Rider's conquest will not be through overt warfare but through more insidious means like disease or famine.

<Mod Edit> Ez 14:21-23:

21 For this is what the Lord God says: “How much more when I send My four [h]severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, vicious animals, and plague to eliminate human and animal life from it! 22 Yet, behold, survivors will be left in it who will be brought out, both sons and daughters. Behold, they are going to come out to you, and you will see their conduct and actions; then you will be comforted for the disaster which I have brought against Jerusalem for everything which I have brought upon it. 23 Then they will comfort you when you see their conduct and actions, for you will know that I have not done without reason whatever I did [j]to it,” declares the Lord God.

But I believe this is more likely in reference to Ez 24's destruction of the temple. In which great detail in Lamentations documents this prophecy. Seeing this kind of what looks to fit the four horsemen but have their own arena of prophesy I would see similar to how Zechariah details the 4 chariots. I would not see that as matching Revelation. No doubt prophecy is extremely challenging.
<Mod edit>

 

[Kaatje]

I rarely care what AI "thinks".
AI can only be as good as the data it is filled with.
And who knows what kind of data? The Bible? Or woke ideas?

I've heard some commentators suggest all the 4 seals are simultanously represented in the 4th. This view relates similar mentions in Ezekiel to all the four horsemen. Ez 14:21-23:

Ezekiel saw things, that were explained in greater detail by John on Patmos.
And in Rev. 6 It is stated clearly that the 4 horsemen are coming one after the other.

 

[Tall Timbers]

I rarely care what AI "thinks".

AI's "thoughts" come from the large language model that is the AI... AI is going to dupe/mislead a lot of weak people I'm afraid, people who won't read the Word of God for themselves in Spirit and in Truth.

 

[TCC]

Rev. 6:1,2
‭And‭ I saw‭‭ when‭ the Lamb‭ opened‭‭ one‭ of‭ the seals‭, and‭ I heard‭‭,
as it were‭ the noise‭ of thunder‭, one‭ of‭ the four‭ beasts‭ saying‭‭, Come‭‭ and‭ see‭‭.‭
‭And‭ I saw‭‭, and‭ behold‭‭ a white‭ horse‭: and‭ he that sat‭‭ on‭ him‭ had‭‭ a bow‭;
and‭ a crown‭ was given‭‭ unto him‭: and‭ he went forth‭‭ conquering‭‭, and‭ to‭ conquer‭‭.

Many Bible prophecy teachers zoom in on the fact that the rider on the white horse has a bow but no arrows.
They say he would bring peace through strength, and lean mostly on diplomacy and fear.

But is this true?

The original Greek word used is: "toxin".
The modern terms "toxic" and "toxin" derive from the ancient Greek word for "bow", toxon, from Old Persian *taxa-, "an arrow".

Arrow poison - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In our laguages, we recognise that word, in words like toxic, and they have to do with poison.
Appearently in the old days of warefare the tips of the arrows were dipped in poison, to harm the enemy better.

It seems that the word "toxin" became the word for the complete package of a "bow-with-poisoned-arrows".

So, the rider who has a "toxin", is not a man without fire-power, but a mighty warrior like Nimrod, going out conquering‭‭, and‭ to‭ conquer‭‭.

What do you think?
Does it make a difference whether the rider has a bow or not?

Very good Kattje. This seems to fair with Pastor Adrian's concept of bow meaning the weapon package. The sense of conquering and going out to conquer would in the early church mind certainly posses also the sense that the bow is used for this conquer. Or that it would be reference to the weapon as a whole. We know when the AC comes he will defer to the (g)of of fortresses. In this there would seem to be some exegetical potential for match.

THE FIRST STRONGER THING
<Mod Edit>

THE SECOND LESS STRONG THING
The other point is less strong. And I would imagine severaly controversial. Acts 17:28 is perhaps the best example of this sort of thing I can find: 28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." In a way what this somewhat demonstrates is that a people that come to an understanding in their day, can in ways, be a way in which prophesy might be better reaized. In other words, the way the Greeks were thinking about gentiles from some of their own poets would be more accurate in contrast to how Israel as a nation would consider. For Isreal was banished for not honoring prophesies from the Old Testament regarding the eventual inclusion of gentiles. And even before God opened up the floodgates for gentiles to come into the church, the Jews rejected their own Messiah when Jesus came for the House of Israel. So in this sense, there is a sense when a modern thought or idea or a way of understanding something might be closer to what God's word had in mind than perhaps more conventional religious understandings of this might be.

Now what I cannot find in scripture is how God might use misunderstanding of things during an age to somewhat to some degree actually be somewhat of an hermetic. I agree that I cannot find prophesy to work this way in scripture. We can find where God makes his word more clear than conventional understanding. But we cannot find where how people misunderstand things might be an indicator of how to interpret something. For example, if people think today that a bow mentioned in Rev 6:2 means conquer by peace without arrows because there are no arrows mentioned, then perhaps even if that view is not traditionally accurate, might God provide in His prophetic way, how the generation it is for be a better way to understand it? Like if God in His word through the apostle John wrote "bow" to mean in his day "the whole of that weapon," but knew later in the 21st century it would mean to many "peace having no arrows," might prophecy work that way? I cannot say it does. For I am not aware of prophecy ever working that way. So I confess a great weakness and void of strength this argument I put forth has.

<Mod Edit>

 

[Kaatje]

@TCC
Yes, I read it all, and will return shortly with an answer (or try to, anyway).
Let me ponder it a while first.

 

[TCC]

@TCC
Yes, I read it all, and will return shortly with an answer (or try to, anyway).
Let me ponder it a while first.

Thanks for replying so late into the eve Kaatje. Get some rest dear sister. Always look forward to what God may bring through you And being where things got to now...i can kind of literally say that...lol. Blessings.

 

[Kaatje]

the AC does make a covenant with the many that literally kicks off the tribulation. But I don't correlate that with the 1st seal. It could be. But then it tends to make the AC a grand ruler over the earth from the beginning of the tribulstion. And although the AC will be a powerful player...it would seem from some arenas of Daniel that he will have fights to go through. We see this portrayed as well in Revaltion 13, that people come to see him conquer over time. To a degree where we understand he seems to come back to life (is one interpretation I would side with). And the whole world says, "Who can war with the beast." Which to me suggests he conquers over time. Not at the beginning.

Now what I cannot find in scripture is how God might use misunderstanding of things during an age to somewhat to some degree actually be somewhat of an hermetic. I agree that I cannot find prophesy to work this way in scripture. We can find where God makes his word more clear than conventional understanding. But we cannot find where how people misunderstand things might be an indicator of how to interpret something.

For example, if people think today that a bow mentioned in Rev 6:2 means conquer by peace without arrows because there are no arrows mentioned, then perhaps even if that view is not traditionally accurate, might God provide in His prophetic way, how the generation it is for be a better way to understand it? Like if God in His word through the apostle John wrote "bow" to mean in his day "the whole of that weapon," but knew later in the 21st century it would mean to many "peace having no arrows," might prophecy work that way?

Because in the 1st century + 1700 years, the church had understood the 1st seal to mean Christ, or the church, or the gospel. Not AC. But our age sees AC. And that view is only 200 years old.

Now on that point I would also confess I see license for that. Not that I can find other areas of scripture where prophecy came to pass more along the lines of some future generation's understanding of it.

I don't know if this answers your questions, but maybe it helps:

As I see it, the Book of Revelation is both chronological and concentric.
Meaning, that is going forward (one seal, bowl etc. after an other),
But also concentric. God's wrath deepens, and there are flashbacks too.
So, not everything is like dominos falling one after the other.
How that pans out with the A/C and Beast, we'll have to see.
I used to think I had the whole book pat, but now I know that I know so little....

Re. misunderstanding Scripture.
Let's read:
The Spirit‭ of the Lord‭ GOD‭ ‭is‭ upon me; because the LORD‭ hath anointed‭‭ me to preach good tidings‭‭ unto the meek‭; he hath sent‭‭ me to bind up‭‭ the brokenhearted‭‭‭, to proclaim‭‭ liberty‭ to the captives‭‭, and the opening of the prison‭ to ‭them that are‭ bound‭‭;‭‭To proclaim‭‭ the acceptable‭ year‭ of the LORD‭, and the day‭ of vengeance‭ of our God‭; (Isa.61:1,2)

And compare:
The Spirit‭ of the Lord‭ ‭is‭ upon‭ me‭, because‭ he hath anointed‭‭ me‭ to preach the gospel‭‭ to the poor‭; he hath sent‭‭ me‭ to heal‭‭ the brokenhearted‭‭‭, to preach‭‭ deliverance‭ to the captives‭, and‭ recovering of sight‭ to the blind‭, to set‭‭ at‭ liberty‭ them that are bruised‭‭,‭‭To preach‭‭ the acceptable‭ year‭ of the Lord‭.‭ ‭And‭ he closed‭‭ the book (Luke 4:18-20)

You see? Jesus stopped reading before mentioning the wrath of God.
Both, the readers of Isaiah's time and the contemporaries of Jesus, could never have guessed that there would be a 2000 year gap between the "acceptable year of the Lord" and the "day of vengeance of our God".
There was no way for them to understand that.

Likewise, the Church through the centuries, saw nothing of God's promises that He would restore Israel in their Homeland. Even though Ezekiel tells about it in no uncertain terms in Ez. 36, where God comforts the mountains and tells them the people will return.
And after that, in Ez. 37, we read about the valley of the dry bones. Who could have guessed that WW2 would bring such devastation to the Jews. That they would rise from the graves in Sobibor and Treblinka, and return to the Promised Land?

To me, that is the one and only reason why the Church allegorized God's promises, and swapped them from Israel to the Church. Because they could not see the marvellous things God would do.

And even that had God foreseen. He even made it so.
We read in Daniel:
But thou, O Daniel‭, shut up‭‭ the words‭, and seal‭‭ the book‭, ‭even‭ to the time‭ of the end‭: many‭ shall run to and fro‭‭, and knowledge‭ shall be increased‭‭.‭ (Dan. 12:4)

Now that we live in the end, we can see those things shaping up. May 14 1948 was pivotal in all Bible Prophecy.
We know more, and we see more, and even for us, it is quite difficult to make out more than the contours.

I believe that God has more surprises for us (and Israel!) in store, and only with 20/20 hindsight we will be able to say: "Yes, of course, how could we have missed that? It was plain from the beginning, only our brain couldn't cope."

 

[Armor of Light]

Thank you Erika!

 

[Margery]

Because in the 1st century + 1700 years, the church had understood the 1st seal to mean Christ, or the church, or the gospel. Not AC. But our age sees AC. And that view is only 200 years old.

There were a LOT of deviations from the earliest teachings that happened in the first 700 years, let alone the years afterwards.

Which early church fathers are you drawing from? By the end of the second century and start of the third the church had already lost a lot of it's earlier teachings in favour of growing apostasy including replacement theology.

Ken Johnson summarizes the earliest of the church fathers teachings The End Times by The Ancient Church Fathers, and he and Lee Brainard both have pointed out that Irenaus, Ephrem and Hippolytus taught things very much as we understand them today from the Pre Trib Rapture to the progression of events. Lee has been involved in translating some previously untranslated and ignored passages by Ephrem which firmly establish a Pre Trib Rapture as taught in the first and second century. That was long denied by people whose theological positions were based on that position.

It's like science- if your entire career is built on a theory it's hard to accept proof that you might have been wrong. I don't fault them, it's a tough position to be in. But some in the anti pre trib camp have had this pointed out clearly and still hold to their error and continue to teach that pre trib didn't exist before Darby. This is suppressing the truth - and it's bad.

By the time of Hippolytus who lived 170-235 the drift was starting towards replacement theology, and this would continue into a lot of the bad teaching of the medieval church, becoming fossilized into the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.

The fight for truth is a long and difficult journey.

As for the 1st Seal position being that of anyone but the antichrist, it's important to see a couple of things in the text in Revelation.

1: Chapter 4 starts with a break in the text- AFTER THIS says John. After what? well that would be chapter 3 which finishes with the command Come up here. So there is a time stamp, a break from discussing the 7 churches (the things which are) in the 3 divisions of Revelation that Jesus gives and now we are viewing the things to come.

(Jesus breaks it into 3 parts in Rev 1:19 - the things which you see - Jesus, the things which are - the church in it's 7 divisions, and the things which shall be hereafter- after the come up here at the end of ch 3 and the beginning of ch 4)

2: The church in Chapter 4 is immediately seen in heaven thru the representatives of the church - the 24 elders.

We know they are the church because they wear crowns of gold and white robes in Rev 4:4 and they cast those crowns at Jesus feet in Rev 4:10.

PLUS in Rev 5:9-10 they sing a song that ONLY THE CHURCH CAN SING.

9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

We are the redeemed out of EVERY TRIBE AND NATION (this is separate from the Jews, this includes Jews AND GENTILES out of every tribe, tongue, people and nation)

AND THEN THE KICKER --- Made US kings and priests to our God and WE shall reign on the earth!

Who else is the group that is redeemed by His blood, out of every tribe and nation, who are made kings and priests to God, who will reign on the earth????

Israel from the time of Jacob split the roles of priest (Levi) and kings (Judah) until Jesus who fulfilled both offices. before Jacob, the order of Melchizedek ruled as king and priest (Abraham gave tithes to him as Paul points out, and Jesus IS the perfect Melchizedek priest who supercedes the priests of Levi and reigns forever as King).

So this isn't Israel. The martyrs of the Fifth Seal don't arrive till later at the 5th Seal. Rev 6:9-11 and they don't wear crowns. They do have white robes though. There is a distinct difference. If these martyrs were martyred in the Church age, they would have their crowns of rewards. These martyrs don't. They are AFTER the church is raptured. They are martyred between the Rapture and the time of the 5th Seal.

So
The 24 elders are the church. They wear crowns that they cast at Jesus fee, they sing about being redeemed by His blood out of every tribe and nation and they are made kings AND priests. 1 Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, ...

Only Jesus and the church are both kings AND priests.

So long way to say we see the church in Revelation before the opening of the Seals. The person opening the Seals is Jesus, He is not simultaneously opening the Seals and riding out as the first rider. And the Church is present to witness the opening of the Seals.

 

[TCC]

I don't know if this answers your questions, but maybe it helps:

As I see it, the Book of Revelation is both chronological and concentric.
Meaning, that is going forward (one seal, bowl etc. after an other),
But also concentric. God's wrath deepens, and there are flashbacks too.
So, not everything is like dominos falling one after the other.
How that pans out with the A/C and Beast, we'll have to see.
I used to think I had the whole book pat, but now I know that I know so little....

Re. misunderstanding Scripture.
Let's read:
The Spirit‭ of the Lord‭ GOD‭ ‭is‭ upon me; because the LORD‭ hath anointed‭‭ me to preach good tidings‭‭ unto the meek‭; he hath sent‭‭ me to bind up‭‭ the brokenhearted‭‭‭, to proclaim‭‭ liberty‭ to the captives‭‭, and the opening of the prison‭ to ‭them that are‭ bound‭‭;‭‭To proclaim‭‭ the acceptable‭ year‭ of the LORD‭, and the day‭ of vengeance‭ of our God‭; (Isa.61:1,2)

And compare:
The Spirit‭ of the Lord‭ ‭is‭ upon‭ me‭, because‭ he hath anointed‭‭ me‭ to preach the gospel‭‭ to the poor‭; he hath sent‭‭ me‭ to heal‭‭ the brokenhearted‭‭‭, to preach‭‭ deliverance‭ to the captives‭, and‭ recovering of sight‭ to the blind‭, to set‭‭ at‭ liberty‭ them that are bruised‭‭,‭‭To preach‭‭ the acceptable‭ year‭ of the Lord‭.‭ ‭And‭ he closed‭‭ the book (Luke 4:18-20)

You see? Jesus stopped reading before mentioning the wrath of God.
Both, the readers of Isaiah's time and the contemporaries of Jesus, could never have guessed that there would be a 2000 year gap between the "acceptable year of the Lord" and the "day of vengeance of our God".
There was no way for them to understand that.

Likewise, the Church through the centuries, saw nothing of God's promises that He would restore Israel in their Homeland. Even though Ezekiel tells about it in no uncertain terms in Ez. 36, where God comforts the mountains and tells them the people will return.
And after that, in Ez. 37, we read about the valley of the dry bones. Who could have guessed that WW2 would bring such devastation to the Jews. That they would rise from the graves in Sobibor and Treblinka, and return to the Promised Land?

To me, that is the one and only reason why the Church allegorized God's promises, and swapped them from Israel to the Church. Because they could not see the marvellous things God would do.

And even that had God foreseen. He even made it so.
We read in Daniel:
But thou, O Daniel‭, shut up‭‭ the words‭, and seal‭‭ the book‭, ‭even‭ to the time‭ of the end‭: many‭ shall run to and fro‭‭, and knowledge‭ shall be increased‭‭.‭ (Dan. 12:4)

Now that we live in the end, we can see those things shaping up. May 14 1948 was pivotal in all Bible Prophecy.
We know more, and we see more, and even for us, it is quite difficult to make out more than the contours.

I believe that God has more surprises for us (and Israel!) in store, and only with 20/20 hindsight we will be able to say: "Yes, of course, how could we have missed that? It was plain from the beginning, only our brain couldn't cope."

Amen sister. As I back track to this post of yours I guess I would refer to my other recent one I posted. Is it enough to say, "We will know when we know?" Sure. At the end of the day it's not about what we think we know or even that we know, I believe. Because what is will be. Amen.

So here is the short cut to my otherwise long post as to why discussion on the matter I believe matters. Sure to land on "only God knows," is always where we will land. But in discussion on the finer point -- which in His image we have been created to be -- the answer there I don't believe is "as much" that only God knows. Because He wrote what He did for us to know Him. That we will be wrong all over the place is a given. Where we might see His majesty more in it...is for kings and queens in Him (Prov 25:2): "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings." And although the end of everyman is the inability of discovery of eternity in the heart, God affirms in His own word it doth not only endeth with, "only He knows."

MY OTHER POST IN A NUTSHELL
Staying for the movie we are actually watching is worth the time spent being there. And being there sometimes means being active in that moment. As it serves potentially the same ends the movie playing affords as well.

. . . . .

<Mod Edit>

 

[Kaatje]

MY OTHER POST IN A NUTSHELL
Staying for the movie we are actually watching is worth the time spent being there. And being there sometimes means being active in that moment. As it serves potentially the same ends the movie playing affords as well.

THIS!

Watching and waiting. And studying the Bible while we watch and wait.
This is what makes Bible Prophecy so very exiting.
And even more, it makes the time we live in super exiting.

I am sitting on the edge of my seat, looking out for what God has in store.
And waiting with abated breath for the closing of the Age of Grace.
It can't be long anymore. Maranatha.

 

[TCC]

THIS!

Watching and waiting. And studying the Bible while we watch and wait.
This is what makes Bible Prophecy so very exiting.
And even more, it makes the time we live in super exiting.

I am sitting on the edge of my seat, looking out for what God has in store.
And waiting with abated breath for the closing of the Age of Grace.
It can't be long anymore. Maranatha.

Amen. My leaning is 2026/27. But with how things are flying off the shelf, maybe its this year. Some indicators. Nevertheless...yeah...seat holding is kind of in fashion right now...lol. Amen. Blessings.