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Update on pastor who thinks Israel can lose the land again

Amethyst

† He hath shed his own blood for my soul
Update on pastor who thinks Israel can lose the land again



I had written this a little while ago on the other site, and last night I finally talked to him briefly about it.

My pastors position is that we shouldn’t relate Israel’s current regathering to that land as a sure sign that the Trib is soon Because they could easily “not” be in that land again and then they’d have to regather at a later time.

In other words, although premillennial, we can’t know if the Trib (and therefore rapture) will be in 8 years from now or in 2000 years from now.

It’s also the belief that says the world has been in much worse condition than it is now (dark ages etc) and could easily take a turn as it has before.

The discussion came about Bc we were talking about Hal Lindsay and other prophecy teachers like his persuasion and he says he doesn’t listen to teachers like that Bc they put too much emphasis on current world situations.

This was @Margery response over there:

I couldn't sleep so I was looking on RF and saw this. Amethyst, you are NOT WRONG.

It's late and I can't remember exactly where it is, but I think it might be near the end of Jeremiah, but the Bible does have a statement that when the Jews return the second time that they would never again be cast out of their land.

Now that is an exceptionally important scripture and requires some history to understand it.

The Jews never fully returned from their Babylonian diaspora, the dispersion that happened when Daniel was carted off to Babylon.

We know this for 2 reasons-- the presence of Jews of the diaspora in Jerusalem for Pentecost AND the history of the Jews in Babylon and around the whole Mediterranean basin. In fact that was how the Babylonian Talmud was compiled, by the Jews in Babylon.

It's important to remember that not all the Jews returned to the land with Ezra and Nehemiah. Many remained in Babylon and the Persian Empire thru the period leading up to our Lord, and long long afterwards.

When Rome expelled the Jews again in 135 AD after a revolt led by Bar Kokhba many were led out into slavery and Rome renamed Israel after their worst enemies the Philistines hence Palestina. That was from the land, AD 70 was from Jerusalem. 2 different Roman expulsions. And that just continued the ongoing diaspora since Babylon took them out of the land.

IF this scripture I can't find off the top of my head, was referring to that period of time, then God didn't keep His word, because He said they wouldn't be plucked out, uprooted again after they came back to their land. So that proves that that verse I remember doesn't fit the return with Ezra and Nehemiah, not all the Jews came back. Many perhaps most, remained in exile.

There were still plenty of Jewish settlements all around the Mediterranean basin, over in Babylon, into Persia and on up into what is now Ukraine. Over time they migrated north into Russia and Europe and those are called Ashkenazi Jews while the Sephardic Jewish group migrated to Spain where that group remained until the time of the Spanish Inquisition. That group fled into North Africa and Egypt with some going to other Islamic areas and settling there.

My point is that the Jews never fully returned to the land after the Babylonian exile, and the Roman expulsion simply removed the group that had relocated back into Israel back out into the larger diaspora again. During all those years they really hadn't had their own land back under their full control with the exception of a few years during the Maccabees. But that fell apart quickly within a generation or two and it was back to problems that brought Rome into the mix.

Because of that-- once they returned and formed their nation again, even though the borders are not all what they have a right to, the Lord promises that they will not be removed again. Even during the flight to safety during the mid point of the Trib, not all the Jews leave. In fact there is some consideration that only a few make that exit to safety, leaving a lot in peril at the mercy of the AC.

Rather like AD70 when the believing Jews in Jerusalem left when the Romans stopped the siege briefly because they remembered what Jesus told them about seeing the armies around Jerusalem. Not one of them accord to Josephus perished while much of Jerusalem's remaining Jews died.

There are 2 passages - similar but referring to 2 times when the Jews have to flee. The one in 70 AD is a forerunner of the AOD in the midst of the Trib.

Anyway thats a long winded explanation of why you are not wrong to think the way you do.

And your pastor is not wrong about everything else. Newspaper exegesis hammers scripture to fit the newspaper headlines rather than noting when the headlines seem to fit scripture.

Hal did a fair bit of that at the start. But in his defence (and I was around to read his first book at the age of 14) he was one of the first to say hey, maybe we should be listening to the prophetic scriptures. Yes there were others, but he was the first one who wrote about it in popular easy to read ways. He got things out there, and people began to pay attention.

BUT newspaper exegesis leads to some crazy conclusions. It's important to let Scripture interpret Scripture and where it is silent, we shouldn't hammer it to make it fit our preconceived notions based on what's happening around us. Hal was convinced that the Lord was going to return before the 80s were done. He didn't date set although he was accused of it. He did hammer scripture to fit the current times back then though, and it led a lot of people down that path to disappointment.

People like Walvoord and Pentecost were quietly teaching prophecy in seminary, training up the next generation of good theologians including many of the very good ones today. They disagreed with Hal but they weren't in the news, they weren't writing bestsellers so they were ignored.

But if you look for it, you'll find the passages referring to God's promise to Israel to never again uproot them from their land. I think it's the end zone of Jeremiah, but Ezekiel is also a likely one, maybe Isaiah, could be Zechariah, lol the list goes on. I'll try to look it up in the next few days, and meanwhile see if you can find it.

It's in there.

Caution though, if your pastor has his mind really firmly made up -- he will find ways to sideline that scripture and set it aside. Whether he views the scripture as pertaining to the millennial reign (and it might be so) or referencing something else it's likely that he may not hear you so pray first, present scriptures if you feel the Lord asking you to, then pray even harder and let the Holy Spirit work.

Don't let that trouble you. It's wonderful you've found one who actually preaches the whole Word of God and we all have points of disagreement.
So an update,
I talked to him about this again very briefly [last night].

We didnt get to go into the scriptures much, only that while he agrees Israel's regathering in 1948 was miraculous, they were only gathered in unbelief and he believes scripture teaches their gathering will be in belief....?
But then he said he doesnt want me to think he is predicting they WILL lose their land again...only that we can't know if they will?

I don't know. We didnt have a lot of time to talk, and he wanted all my scripture references but I didn't have myself together tonight like I could have. I wasn't expecting to even be talking to him about it at the time to prepare my mind for debate mode.
As usual, he is very respectful, not an argumentative spirit.

When I went home last night I felt so oppressed and full of anxiety. I prayed for God's strength and peace and I went directly to a teaching Andy Woods that I actually hadnt listened to before where he talks exactly about "young dispensationalists" trending to teach that Israel wouldn't be regathered in unbelief if it was fulfillment fo prophecy, but rather in belief.
 
He is open to be talking about why I don't agree with him based on scriptures etc, but I wanted to be in a better mode where I had verses in front of me and also where I was prayed up to not go into defense mode {one of my many areas of weakness}

I want to talk to him about this without it being like I am teaching a man? I have never been in this position before with a pastor.....how do I do this biblically/appropriately as far as him being my current pastor, etc...
 
He is open to be talking about why I don't agree with him based on scriptures etc, but I wanted to be in a better mode where I had verses in front of me and also where I was prayed up to not go into defense mode {one of my many areas of weakness}

I want to talk to him about this without it being like I am teaching a man? I have never been in this position before with a pastor.....how do I do this biblically/appropriately as far as him being my current pastor, etc...
I dont think you or he would consider your teaching him. You could share your views, backed with the scripture, then ask him what he thinks. You could simply state at the end of your presenting your views “This is what my bible study time has shown me, is this a wrong view”? Then, he would be forced to offer his views on what he believes, and knowing what you just presented him, he could then state why he agrees or disagrees. You probably will be presenting him with something he has not thought of, and yet giving him a way to answer without looking like you are teaching the teacher.

When someone who is trained in the bible feels you are preaching to them, a little finesse goes a long way, and does not zap the ego.
 
I am so glad you posted this here. I read your other thread. Listen…. Just take the whole conversation off of Israel, and ask him this question based on 1 Thess chap 5

“But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.”

Question: What exactly are we to watch for?
 
I posed this question because in your other thread, you mentioned that he said he doesn’t believe in looking at current events to know where we are in Bible prophecy. My point is, we were clearly told to “watch.” Watch for what? If we (AND the Jews ) aren’t to look at current events, why did Jesus talk about the times of Noah and Lot?
 
I believe that we can look at some of the same signs as the Jews. We know if we see the shadows of the tribulation looming, that our departure is not far away.
I see the coming of the Lord as one event in 2 stages, separated by the Tribulation. Clouds, followed by earth.
 
I think this pastor, not encouraging people to watch, is going against this clear admonition. He can not just sit back and not watch, just because he thinks the Jews must be gathered in belief. We are told to watch, period.

“And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.” Mk 13:37
 
A thing I just thought of reading this. How could Israel be gathered in belief? The 7-year Tribulation is called the Time of Jacob's Trouble. It is the time God turns His attention back on Israel to bring them to know Christ as their Lord and Savior. If they are already gathered back together in their land in belief, then there wouldn't be a reason for the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

I don't see how that pastor can say it could still be possibly a long time. There is so much going on, so many things happening now that show the signs of the times, so much convergence. Plus with Israel being back in their land for 75 1/2 years now, and Jesus telling us that the generation who see this will not pass away until all these things come to pass......
 
You are correct @mphsmom ... there can not be a gathering of Jews to Israel in belief until Jesus Christ returns in victory and sets up His millennial Kingdom. It is clear that when Christ returns, the Jews in Israel are in unbelief. This is clear from Zechariah 12:10-13:6. Their weeping/wailing/mourning at this time will be because they finally recognize Jesus is indeed their Messiah and howl in agony for all they and their forebears have suffered by their rejection of Him. Nowhere in Scripture can we find --prior to this point-- ANY gathering in belief in the land given them by God. Thus the regathering spoken of in Scripture (Jeremiah 16:14–15; 23:3, 7–8; 29:14; 31:7–8) HAS to be in unbelief. God Himself said that He is the one who would gather them. (Isaiah 43:5-6; Jeremiah.23:3) But nowhere does He say it would be because of their faithfulness or belief.

As to sharing with your pastor, I think @Andy C gave you some great advice. I know I would appreciate that type of approach were someone wanting to take issue on some scriptural point with me.
 
Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

and what about this one...

Amos 9:15
I will firmly plant them in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land that I have given them,” says the LORD your God.
 
I am so glad you posted this here. I read your other thread. Listen…. Just take the whole conversation off of Israel, and ask him this question based on 1 Thess chap 5

“But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.”

Question: What exactly are we to watch for?
So funny you post 1 Thess 5

The only reason I was with him that night was because of a bible study he was doing and it was on that exact verse.
It's the reason I even went into the discussion with Israel with him at all. :lol:
 
One of the issues as I said on the other board is that he believes everything else in line with the way I do. 🤷‍♀️
You would think he might be a Covenant/Replacement proponent but he is not.

I am just not totally sure what he believes is the role of Israel right now bc we haven't had a real opportunity to sit down and discuss it all in depth -- looking back I feel like the way he sees the "watch" verses are simply don't sleep, don't let your guard down, live as sons of light not darkness, etc..
But I don't want to mis characterize.
 
I forgot to add -- I dont fully know what he meant by this because like i said it was brief -- but when I said some liken the regathering of Israel to "stages", 1948 being the first stage in unbelief, then later coming to a belief -- he said "well I think that can all happen suddenly, not over a period of time. God can work overnight." And he said the same thing about technology -- when I said it's all set up, he said yes but it can crumble easily and God could set it all back up again very quickly so we shouldnt look to that as a near sign.
Yes, he CAN but it doesnt have to be that way. Again, I am not familiar with this belief maybe someone else is.

I think he he feels reluctant based on the past of people saying the end was in the 70's and then suddenly the Soviet Union fell, etc...

Only reason I care is because when I do talk to him again I want to be prepared for what he will say.
 
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