THOUGHTS ON ETERNITY

[mattfivefour]

Well, their children being born with sin natures, just at they and we were, will eventually rebel. Maybe not the bulk of the earlygenerations, but eventually history tells us it WILL happen. Just as it did among the descendants of the Israelites freed from Egypt or those returned from Babylon. But with Satan bound during that thousand year period they will have no outlet for their rebellion. It will indeed be an interesting time. And I am sure we will be kept busy as administrators and judges and teachers around this planet, helping Christ as He rules and reigns from Jerusalem.

 

[Tall Timbers]

It's easy for me to imagine about the Millennium but the Eternal State... I just can't wrap my mind around that. I think about jobs I'd like to have during the Millennium every once in a while.

 

[Andy C]

It's easy for me to imagine about the Millennium but the Eternal State... I just can't wrap my mind around that. I think about jobs I'd like to have during the Millennium every once in a while.

Will the church saints be on earth during the MK? Jack Kelley, Andy Woods dont think so as we will be in Heaven. I tried to find Arnolds view on this, but could not find a direct statement but there are some passages that mention the Trib Saints will be on earth with the believers who survived the tribulation.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Will the church saints be on earth during the MK? Jack Kelley, Andy Woods dont think so as we will be in Heaven. I tried to find Arnolds view on this, but could not find a direct statement but there are some passages that mention the Trib Saints will be on earth with the believers who survived the tribulation.

My understanding is yes. Jesus will be in Jerusalem, right?

Rev 20:4-6

Arnold says the Church and Tribulation Saints co-reign under Christ.

 

[Andy C]

It's easy for me to imagine about the Millennium but the Eternal State... I just can't wrap my mind around that. I think about jobs I'd like to have during the Millennium every once in a while.

Official burger tester, and with your new and glorified body, you will never get full…..

 

[Marilyn C]

Will the church saints be on earth during the MK? Jack Kelley, Andy Woods dont think so as we will be in Heaven. I tried to find Arnolds view on this, but could not find a direct statement but there are some passages that mention the Trib Saints will be on earth with the believers who survived the tribulation.

Hi Andy,

I agree with Jack and Andy that we, the Body of Christ will be reigning with the Lord from His own throne in the highest overall, as God`s word says.

To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne.. (Rev. 3: 21)

God...seated Him (Jesus) at His right hand in the heavenly places FAR ABOVE ALL principality and power and might and dominion and every name that is named, noy only in this age but ALSO IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME. (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

 

[mattfivefour]

Hi Andy,

I agree with Jack and Andy that we, the Body of Christ will be reigning with the Lord from His own throne in the highest overall, as God`s word says.

To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne.. (Rev. 3: 21)

God...seated Him (Jesus) at His right hand in the heavenly places FAR ABOVE ALL principality and power and might and dominion and every name that is named, noy only in this age but ALSO IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME. (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

This is true. But in the MK itself Christ will rule from Jerusalem. And from a reading of all of the various scriptures it appears that we who are His will rule with him, serving His needs in the care and direction and instruction and judging of those here on earth-- specifically those who survived the Great Tribulation and their children who will be born during the following thousand years. Daniel 7:27; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 2:26; Revelation 5:9-10; Revelation 20:4.

 

[Andiamo]

I look forward to no fatigue ever, and never again. Honestly eternity sounds just exhausting to me whenever I can’t wrap my head around this.
But finally, Life - real Life - fully lived without the hinderances of fatigue, pain and sin.
How awesome to receive an assignment or call from God and being able to fulfill that with no energy drain whatsoever.

 

[LightOfMyLife]

Eternity to me sounds great compared to the sin on earth. Heaven will be so beautiful with flowers, peaceful no hearing of murder, never sick or dying, beautiful music and singing. A new Glorified body that will live forever, no bills, pills, doctors, grocery shopping, and cleaning house. Most importantly we will be with Jesus forever. I our time on earth is about to come to an end.

 

[KMendel]

I think one of the things I am truly looking forward to in heaven is not having to decide what to fix for breakfast, lunch and dinner
every single day............... at least I hope that will be done and dusted.

 

[LightOfMyLife]

I think one of the things I am truly looking forward to in heaven is not having to decide what to fix for breakfast, lunch and dinner
every single day............... at least I hope that will be done and dusted.

Sounds like something I would full service in heaven by the Angel cooks, and clean up too. That would be a dream come true.

 

[Marilyn C]

This is true. But in the MK itself Christ will rule from Jerusalem. And from a reading of all of the various scriptures it appears that we who are His will rule with him, serving His needs in the care and direction and instruction and judging of those here on earth-- specifically those who survived the Great Tribulation and their children who will be born during the following thousand years. Daniel 7:27; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 2:26; Revelation 5:9-10; Revelation 20:4.

Thank you for those scriptures.

Dan. 7: 27 refers to Israelis saints. The Body of Christ was never mentioned in the Old Testament as the Lord has NOT revealed it at that time.

1 Cor. 6: 2 Yes we shall judge the world system and fallen angels, and that is in the tribulation.

2 Tim. 2: 12 Yes agreed we shall reign with Christ and that is in the highest.

Rev. 2: 26 yes we shall have power OVER the nations from the Lord`s own throne in the highest.

Rev. 5: 9 - 10 Yes we are the Body of Christ in the third heaven praising the Lord proclaiming that we will reign epi OVER the earth. (on is a wrong translation)

Rev. 20: 4 Those people are from the tribulation as they did not take the mark and were beheaded. (That is not us as we will be in the highest with the Lord).

 

[Andiamo]

The Body of Christ was never mentioned in the Old Testament as the Lord has NOT revealed it at that time.

Huh? Never as in never?? That is absolutely incorrect. The Church was not revealed to people of that time, but the Church is definitely revealed throughout the Old Testament—-to us. It would take me hours to show you the examples. But I should not need to. Just start in Genesis. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here.

 

[Marilyn C]

Huh? Never as in never?? That is absolutely incorrect. The Church was not revealed to people of that time, but the Church is definitely revealed throughout the Old Testament—-to us. It would take me hours to show you the examples. But I should not need to. Just start in Genesis.

The Apostle Paul by the Lord`s Holy Spirit wrote -

`For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how by

revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

which in other ages WAS NOT MADE KNOWN TO THE SONS OF MEN, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be

fellow heirs of His promise in Christ through the gospel,...` (Eph. 3: 1 - 6)

 

[Andy C]

“But wait a minute,” some say. “We’ll all be different there from the way we are here.” Maybe so, but we’ll also be the same unique person we’ve always been. We don’t get some huge lobotomy to dumb us down and keep us passively content like they did in “One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.”

Certainly, we’ll spend lots of time worshiping God, just as we do here, giving thanks for all He’s given us. But the earthly bonds that restrain us will be released, our brains energized, our senses sharpened, and our unique capabilities revealed, not only for worship but for all our experiences. We’ll finally become all that we were created to be, God’s work of art: the highest example of His creative ability. Do you have any idea what that means? Or any idea how thankful you’ll be?

Its to hard for me to fathom what our mentality will be in our glorified body. Still me, but highly energized, still cracking on that hamburger eating one from Wyoming.

 

[Andiamo]

The Apostle Paul by the Lord`s Holy Spirit wrote -

`For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how by

revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

which in other ages WAS NOT MADE KNOWN TO THE SONS OF MEN, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be

fellow heirs of His promise in Christ through the gospel,...` (Eph. 3: 1 - 6)

Yes, thank you for the scripture…I am aware of it and the fact that the Church was a mystery…but you said that the Body of Christ was “never mentioned” in the Old Testament. Are you doubling down on me because you really believe that God made no references to the Church, in His word, in the Old Testament? My goodness, that would change the context of LOT of scripture if that were true.
Please clarify your beliefs and don’t answer me with scripture alone. This is a fun and encouraging thread and I don’t want to argue but to know where you stand.

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, thank you for the scripture…I am aware of it and the fact that the Church was a mystery…but you said that the Body of Christ was “never mentioned” in the Old Testament. Are you doubling down on me because you really believe that God made no references to the Church, in His word, in the Old Testament? My goodness, that would change the context of LOT of scripture if that were true.
Please clarify your beliefs and don’t answer me with scripture alone. This is a fun and encouraging thread and I don’t want to argue but to know where you stand.

I don`t believe, as I`ve said that the Body of Christ was written about in the Old Testament. If Satan had known that Christ was going to rise from the dead and then give of His divine nature to others then he Satan would not have killed the Lord.

I speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age nor of the rulers of this age who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, THE HIDDEN MYSTERY which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1 Cor. 2: 7 & 8)

 

[mattfivefour]

Thank you for responding, Marilyn. I appreciate your comments. But while I agree with most of what you said, I must respectfully disagree on two points.

Dan. 7: 27 refers to Israelis saints. The Body of Christ was never mentioned in the Old Testament as the Lord has NOT revealed it at that time.

True, but only to a degree. The church definitely is shadowed in the Old Testament. But the Israelites did not see that, for it was as yet sa mystery, as Paul says. But while as yet we were not a visible part of Israel in Daniel's time, in Christ we were already grafted in. And with God time is irrelevant (though definitely not to us.) Like many expositors, I cannot state that this statement in Daniel does include the NT saints. I believe it does.

The passage in 1Corinthians 2 that you quote simply says the "rulers of this age" (τῶν ἀρχόντων τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου) did not understand the mystery. It does not say the mystery was not contained in God's Word: simply that they could not see it.

Rev. 20: 4 Those people are from the tribulation as they did not take the mark and were beheaded. (That is not us as we will be in the highest with the Lord).

Well, this one is interesting because much confusion comes from a careless reading of the verse. All three clauses are often interpreted together as referring to ONE GROUP of people-- those who are given to rule, being the ones who had been beheaded, the martyrs who did not bow to the Beast. Read the passage quickly: that's what it appears to say. But in the original Greek it does not read that way.

In the original it actuallyrefers to THREE GROUPS-- those given power to rule, those beheaded, and those who did not bow to the Beast. The repetitive use of the Greek conjunction καὶ demonstrate this. Καὶ is an additive conjunction. In other words it adds something to something that precedes it (Admittedly it can also be an additive particle that adds explanation to what came before it, but the grammar and context here in no way indicates that particular meaning in this verse.) No, the way it reads in Greek is that there are three groups referred to-- those who are seated on thrones and given authority to judge ... AND those who had been beheaded for their testimony ... AND those who had not worshiped the Best of its image or received its mark. All of these come to life and return with Christ for a thousand years. Honestly, there is nothing that says those on the thrones are the martyrs alone.

I believe part of the problem of interpretation comes with an erroneius understanding of vthe meaning of the First Resurrection. I careful reading of scripture shows that the First Resurrection is not a single one-time event. Based on an investigation of the makeup of the Church plus a comparison of verses such as 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and our Revelation 20:3-4, it is clear that the first resurrection is for those who are faithful to Christ, from the dead in Christ to the living in Christ at the Rapture to those who get saved and remain faithful to Him through the Great Tribulation. They are all part of the First Resurrection, which is the resurrection to eternal life in union with God. The Second Resurrection (which comes after the millennial reign) is actually a resurrection to eternal life separated from God. It is also referred to as the Second Death.

So, my precious sister, based on the evidence I have described above, I am of the firm belief that those who rule and reign with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom will be ALL who are His at any point.

I, of course, being human and thus flawed and limited in understanding, could be wrong. And ultimately it doesn't matter: for we will ALL be with God for eternity. But based on the actual words of the original manuscript text I do not think I am wrong in this matter. But glory to God!!! What a wonderful future awaits us in any case! And it is ready to be revealed to us in due time, as Paul says. Maranatha, Lord Jesus!

 

[Marilyn C]

Thank you for responding, Marilyn. I appreciate your comments. But while I agree with most of what you said, I must respectfully disagree on two points.

True, but only to a degree. The church definitely is shadowed in the Old Testament. But the Israelites did not see that, for it was as yet sa mystery, as Paul says. But while as yet we were not a visible part of Israel in Daniel's time, in Christ we were already grafted in. And with God time is irrelevant (though definitely not to us.) Like many expositors, I cannot state that this statement in Daniel does include the NT saints. I believe it does.

The passage in 1Corinthians 2 that you quote simply says the "rulers of this age" (τῶν ἀρχόντων τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου) did not understand the mystery. It does not say the mystery was not contained in God's Word: simply that they could not see it.

Well, this one is interesting because much confusion comes from a careless reading of the verse. All three clauses are often interpreted together as referring to ONE GROUP of people-- those who are given to rule, being the ones who had been beheaded, the martyrs who did not bow to the Beast. Read the passage quickly: that's what it appears to say. But in the original Greek it does not read that way.

In the original it actuallyrefers to THREE GROUPS-- those given power to rule, those beheaded, and those who did not bow to the Beast. The repetitive use of the Greek conjunction καὶ demonstrate this. Καὶ is an additive conjunction. In other words it adds something to something that precedes it (Admittedly it can also be an additive particle that adds explanation to what came before it, but the grammar and context here in no way indicates that particular meaning in this verse.) No, the way it reads in Greek is that there are three groups referred to-- those who are seated on thrones and given authority to judge ... AND those who had been beheaded for their testimony ... AND those who had not worshiped the Best of its image or received its mark. All of these come to life and return with Christ for a thousand years. Honestly, there is nothing that says those on the thrones are the martyrs alone.

I believe part of the problem of interpretation comes with an erroneius understanding of vthe meaning of the First Resurrection. I careful reading of scripture shows that the First Resurrection is not a single one-time event. Based on an investigation of the makeup of the Church plus a comparison of verses such as 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and our Revelation 20:3-4, it is clear that the first resurrection is for those who are faithful to Christ, from the dead in Christ to the living in Christ at the Rapture to those who get saved and remain faithful to Him through the Great Tribulation. They are all part of the First Resurrection, which is the resurrection to eternal life in union with God. The Second Resurrection (which comes after the millennial reign) is actually a resurrection to eternal life separated from God. It is also referred to as the Second Death.

So, my precious sister, based on the evidence I have described above, I am of the firm belief that those who rule and reign with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom will be ALL who are His at any point.

I, of course, being human and thus flawed and limited in understanding, could be wrong. And ultimately it doesn't matter: for we will ALL be with God for eternity. But based on the actual words of the original manuscript text I do not think I am wrong in this matter. But glory to God!!! What a wonderful future awaits us in any case! And it is ready to be revealed to us in due time, as Paul says. Maranatha, Lord Jesus!

HI matt,

Yes, what a blessed people we are with such an amazing future.

Another point is that the two groups - Body of Christ and Old Testament Saints are seen as separate in the General Assembly in the third heaven awaiting their respective inheritances.

You have come to Mount Zion....to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect... (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

 

[Andiamo]

I don`t believe, as I`ve said that the Body of Christ was written about in the Old Testament. If Satan had known that Christ was going to rise from the dead and then give of His divine nature to others then he Satan would not have killed the Lord.

Ok then. Thank you for replying in your own words.