THE RAPTURE, A SECRET JESUS COULDN’T REVEAL

[Goodboy]

Im thinking some disagree with what the day and the hour was referring too (rapture or end of the trib). I dont think those words are mentioned anywhere else in the bible.

Correct.

But then why do these same people believe we cannot know the day or hour of the Rapture. Where do that get that belief from if the Bible does not state that according to them?

We need to back up what we believe with Bible scripture.

 

[mattfivefour]

I dont think those words are mentioned anywhere else in the bible.

But then why do these same people believe we cannot know the day or hour of the Rapture. Where do that get that belief from if the Bible does not state that according to them?

We need to back up what we believe with Bible scripture.

There are a number of places in the Bible, other than Matthew, Mark, and Luke, where God tells us that we will not know the time of His coming, but most refer to the Day of the Lord which comes at the very end. For example there is 2 Peter 3:10-- "But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare."

And there is 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2-- "Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night“, which for the disciples was in the context of what Jesus said when He appeared to them before His ascension-- "“It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority." (Acts 1:7)

And at least one verse in Revelation clearly refers to the time of the end due to the fact that it occurs in the 16th chapter at the time of the outpouring of the sixth bowl, just prior to the pouring of the seventh bowl: "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed."

But ... there is an intriguing verse found while the Church is still on earth. Speaking to the Church at Saturday, Jesus says: "Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you." (Revelation 3:3). Clearly this cannot refer to the Day of the Lord as described in the latter parts of Revelation: it must refer to what could occur while the Church is still here. Is this then a reference to the unknown timing of the Rapture? The coming as a thief; ie, suddenly and unexpectedly? Decide for yourselves. I'm not making any claims or trying to establish any doctrine; I simply thought @Goodboy's question deserved some scriptural effort.

All that said, our brother makes an excellent point-- if the Matthew (and Mark and Luke) accounts of the Olivet Discourse are to be interpreted as referring to the Day of the Lord and not the Rapture, then where in Holy Writ do we come up with the doctrine that the time of the Rapture cannot be known?

 

[Greg]

I'm not arguing either side on this one, but I suppose it goes to the fullness of the gentiles from Romans 11:25. While specifically about the partial hardening of Israel, it's not a huge stretch to connect that to the Rapture, at least in terms of sequence if not an actual single day. If the fullness can happen on any given day, no one knows. I suspect, but only suspect, it won't be some random day, but that's mostly based on how God prophetically seems to tie significant dates together for His glory.

But yeah, on the no one knows the day or the hour and tying it to the second coming, that has always seemed too big of a stretch to me given Daniel 12:11. The usual argument I've seen is that it'll be dark for three days and you won't know what day it is.

Appreciate the conversation-- think it's great to examine our assumptions and compare them to the breadth of scripture to see what holds water.

One day we'll see it all clearly...

 

[Goodboy]

There are a number of places in the Bible, other than Matthew, Mark, and Luke, where God tells us that we will not know the time of His coming, but most refer to the Day of the Lord which comes at the very end. For example there is 2 Peter 3:10-- "But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare."

And there is 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2-- "Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night“, which for the disciples was in the context of what Jesus said when He appeared to them before His ascension-- "“It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority." (Acts 1:7)

And at least one verse in Revelation clearly refers to the time of the end due to the fact that it occurs in the 16th chapter at the time of the outpouring of the sixth bowl, just prior to the pouring of the seventh bowl: "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed."

But ... there is an intriguing verse found while the Church is still on earth. Speaking to the Church at Saturday, Jesus says: "Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you." (Revelation 3:3). Clearly this cannot refer to the Day of the Lord as described in the latter parts of Revelation: it must refer to what could occur while the Church is still here. Is this then a reference to the unknown timing of the Rapture? The coming as a thief; ie, suddenly and unexpectedly? Decide for yourselves. I'm not making any claims or trying to establish any doctrine; I simply thought @Goodboy's question deserved some scriptural effort.

All that said, our brother makes an excellent point-- if the Matthew (and Mark and Luke) accounts of the Olivet Discourse are to be interpreted as referring to the Day of the Lord and not the Rapture, then where in Holy Writ do we come up with the doctrine that the time of the Rapture cannot be known?

Actually everyone I know that states that we won't know when the Rapture will occur utilize Jesus exact quote of not knowing the day or the hour as proof.

 

[Baby Yoda]

Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left." Because at the rapture, believers will be taken out of the world, some have confused this with the rapture of the church. Here, however, the situation is the reverse. The one who is left, is left to enter the kingdom; the one who is taken, is taken in judgment. This is in keeping with the illustration of the time of Noah when the ones taken away are the unbelievers.10Feinberg also explains: 10 John F. Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come (Chicago: Moody, 1974), 193.10It will be a taking away judicially and in judgment. The ones left will enjoy the blessings of Christ's reign on earth, just as Noah and his family were left to continue on earth. This is the opposite of the rapture, w

So.... if we are suddenly left behind it may be a good thing?

 

[Andy C]

Actually everyone I know that states that we won't know when the Rapture will occur utilize Jesus exact quote of not knowing the day or the hour as proof.

Over my 2 decades of studying eschatology I have held beliefs on both sides of the disputed meaning of the day and hour. All I know with 100 percent certainty is Jesus is one day (hopefully real soon) going to call us Home.

 

[mattfivefour]

Over my 2 decades of studying eschatology I have held beliefs on both sides of the disputed meaning of the day and hour. All I know with 100 percent certainty is Jesus is one day (hopefully real soon) going to call us Home.

Bingo!

 

[Goodboy]

Over my 2 decades of studying eschatology I have held beliefs on both sides of the disputed meaning of the day and hour. All I know with 100 percent certainty is Jesus is one day (hopefully real soon) going to call us Home.

I totally agree, but I would remove the word "hopefully" from your statement! LOL!

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

So.... if we are suddenly left behind it may be a good thing?

If you want to risk it for the biscuit i guess

 

[Baby Yoda]

If you want to risk it for the biscuit i guess

Not sure what that means, but actually my comment was serious.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Not sure what that means, but actually my comment was serious.

Ok just to clarify yes it is serious to be left behind.

I initially thought that the original argument was about the bible verse about someone being taken and another being left behind was referring to rapture when in my opin ion after listening to Andy Wood's is that this verse is referring to the tribulation period where the people that are taken are brought straight to the white throne judgement wheras the ones left behind are left to settle into the millenial kingdom.

What was actually being argued in this thread and i sort of missed it was that Good boy was disputing or actually asking whereb does the bible specifically say no one knows the day or hour of the rapture which i have to agree that the bible word for word doesn't say that.

 

[G Lee]

I would offer.

A couple of things. Jesus the apostle declared the Holy Fathers will in respect to the signified understanding of parables given in verse 1. It sets the standard for interpreting spiritual things of Christ . Called the hidden manna in 2:17

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

No signs were given to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy.

Jesus the Son of man given words from the Holy Father called them an evil generation, none converted mankind they made Jesus into a circus seal, do a work perform a miracle them when we see it with our own eyes, we will believe for a half a second.

 

[Andy C]

A couple of things. Jesus the apostle

Why do you call Jesus an Apostle?

 

[G Lee]

Why do you call Jesus an Apostle?

Hi Thanks

Other than he was sent to do the will of the Father.?

He is the chief of "sent ones" (apostles). The prophet \apostles' other apostles prophesied of.

2 Corinthians 11:4-64;For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.; For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

From my experiences the word apostle to its original foundation (sent messenger) has been changed. Destroying the foundation the first usage.

God sent Abel the martyr a second born to establish a person must be born again. God passed down that spiritual seed (Christ) to another second born Enoch it was then born-again mankind could call and be heard

Apostle like a few other words left in the native tongue should of been translated to English as "sent messengers." ( UPS, Fed X, Uber. smoke signal)

Changing the meaning of one word can change the authority behind it.

Deuteronomy 4:2; Ye shall not add unto the word (singular)which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it,(singular) that ye may keep the commandments (plural) of the Lord your God which I command you.

Christ protecting the authority of his Living abiding word, a similar warning (Rev 22:18) to represent to the whole sealed with 7 seals till the last day under the Sun. Both working as one protector of His integrity.

Changing the meaning of apostle from "sent one" (errand boy) to highly venerable ones so they can lord it over the faith or belief of the non-venerable.

Changing the meaning of the word :apostle" sent ones to worship-able ones opens the idea of patron saints' male and female invisible messengers (some call angel)

The foundation of Greek and Roman mythology

Its Christ in us not a legion of gods called angels by some.

 

[Baby Yoda]

I initially thought that the original argument was about the bible verse about someone being taken and another being left behind was referring to rapture when in my opin ion after listening to Andy Wood's is that this verse is referring to the tribulation period where the people that are taken are brought straight to the white throne judgement wheras the ones left behind are left to settle into the millenial kingdom.

That's what I was referring to also -- the text seemed to say when one is taken and the other left, being left was the believer and not how we usually look at it.

 

[Hol]

It was the secret Jesus couldn’t reveal.

Pastor Woods was one time expressing disappointment in Daniel Wallace's new Bible Translation (NET Bible) because in the notes he failed to mention that in John 14:2 Jesus did mention the coming rapture:
“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you..."

I recall that clearly because I had recently purchased a leather bound NET Bible and was so disappointed. I've sense learned to pray lots before purchasing something so important.

I'm not arguing either side on this one, but I suppose it goes to the fullness of the gentiles from Romans 11:25.

That was my first thought too. Jesus, in us, today is out looking for lost sheep. There's no certainty when someone will place their faith in God's plan for their salvation, though God is omniscient, we aren't and we would likely mess things up if we knew.

So.... if we are suddenly left behind it may be a good thing?

Yeah, that was a mind bender for me too.

Here is Dr. John Walvoord:
"“According to Matthew 24:40-41, ‘Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.’ Because at the rapture, believers will be taken out of the world, some have confused this with the rapture of the church. Here, however, the situation is the reverse. The one who is left, is left to enter the kingdom; the one who is taken, is taken in judgment. This is in keeping with the illustration of the time of Noah when the ones taken away are the unbelievers.”

So mortals, many many Jews who found their Messiah, will be left to populate the Millennial Kingdom, plus some gentiles. They have to be left behind because they can't be in their glorified bodies. No regular mortals go through a rapture to Heaven and remain mortal.

 

[Greg]

I posted it upthread, but I'm still kind of wrestling with the idea that Matthew was talking about being taken to judgment, while Luke was talking about the Rapture.

 

[G Lee]

I'm not arguing either side on this one, but I suppose it goes to the fullness of the gentiles from Romans 11:25. While specifically about the partial hardening of Israel, it's not a huge stretch to connect that to the Rapture, at least in terms of sequence if not an actual single day. If the fullness can happen on any given day, no one knows. I suspect, but only suspect, it won't be some random day, but that's mostly based on how God prophetically seems to tie significant dates together for His glory.

But yeah, on the no one knows the day or the hour and tying it to the second coming, that has always seemed too big of a stretch to me given Daniel 12:11. The usual argument I've seen is that it'll be dark for three days and you won't know what day it is.

Appreciate the conversation-- think it's great to examine our assumptions and compare them to the breadth of scripture to see what holds water.

One day we'll see it all clearly...

I would offer the three days and nights of darkness

A promised demonstration of Genesis 3:15 with Isaah 53 a bruised heel parable. Using as a metaphor "belly of whale" to indicate suffering unto death with Jonas and three days nights suffering demonstration of the Lamb slain from the foundation. . . with Jesus the Son of man a metaphor called "heart of earth". suffering unto death. A living sacrifice by his wounds pouring out spirit life we are healed

The six days the Holy Father did work. Again, a demonstration of the Holy Father not seen made known by the Son of man Jesus . The bruising of the heel Prophecy. . fullfed thousands of years later.

The thre days and nights demonstration Beginning in the garden of Gethsemane a way back to the garden of Eden. Christ protecting his bride from false prophecy. (Neither shall you touch)

Dying flesh signified as sinful was needed to do what the letter of the law (death) could not do. Create new- born again life.

 

[mattfivefour]

None of the arguments upthread have changed my interpretation that the "taking" in Matthew 24:40-41 is the Rapture because I do not think that Christ's teaching in Matthew 24 and 25 is linear. I think that He crammed a lot of what would take place into this one teaching. But, as I always say, I could be wrong. I just haven't seen a persuasive argument yet. I suppose it all comes down to whether the thoughts in the Olivet discourse follow a linear progression from beginning to end, or are a collection of teachings regarding the end times.

 

[Greg]

None of the arguments upthread have changed my interpretation that the "taking" in Matthew 24:40-41 is the Rapture because I do not think that Christ's teaching in Matthew 24 and 25 is linear. I think that He crammed a lot of what would take place into this one teaching. But, as I always say, I could be wrong. I just haven't seen a persuasive argument yet. I suppose it all comes down to whether the thoughts in the Olivet discourse follow a linear progression from beginning to end, or are a collection of teachings regarding the end times.

I always leaned that way too. He was answering three questions and then expanding.

But like Hol referenced, to me the Rapture is definitely in view in John 14. You have to understand the rest of the Bible and believe in a literal 1000 year kingdom on Earth to see it, though.