The Grammar of Discernment

[TCC]

I'm not sure if this is the best section for this post. Please feel free to place this where it best might belong.

THEME
This is a brief case study. The first video is long. But if you have under 1 hour, please check out the last three videos for deep dive context. This post's aim is to serve in the arena of discernment. For me it was very challenging to discern if and/or how much gaslighting had become an ingredient in my evangelical experience. Please consider this a video log account of how discernment ministries today "can" be fake discernment. Built upon a house of cards. A tandem "posing" infrastructure and economy running along side the very themes of reality. An artifice empire.

CONTEXT
What you will find here is an evaluation of discernment in our era. The first 3 videos uncover relevant themes to notice in Steve Lawson's recent confession he posted on X. Most of the American Reformed world and evangelicalism itself will see Lawson's confession as honorable and respectable. Many videos have been made to attest to this. What this post seeks to genuinely explore is how Lawson's confession provides a huge key and social artifact exposing the nature of gaslighting in modern American Christian culture.

CONTENT
1. Steve Lawson X Post Repenting
This video is long, but well worth its discovery. This obscure but almost 300k subscriber YT account is some random guy that brings lovely clarity to things to think about. You can still get a tremendous amount of insight into sharpening discernment today, I believe, by skipping this video though. However, this video is a very rare use of simplicity as a way to discern. And well worth its length, i believe.

2. Steve Lawson X Post Repenting 2
This video compliments the 1st. But can also stand on its own. As a shortcut to the point, please check out this video. It underscores the nature of "Orthodoxy as Performing Art" in the church today. And serves, I believe, as a helpful reminder in keeping it real.

3. Some Background Lawson/Macarthur Link -- A Litteral "Hireling" Housed in the Camp of: Discernment Ministry
This video informs us that the premier discernment ministry circuit in protestant Christianity runs the grave risk of being a hireling. And demonstrates that God in His mercy has provided a literal reality in our faces of what is often seemingly a mere matter of subjective metaphor we might commonly use.

4. The Sharp Knife of Discernment & The Bully Troll Department
Although the other 3 videos might have a sense of controversy to them, this one is likely to take the cake. This video looks at the discernment ministry view upon Amazon's new series, The House of David. This video is not a defense for Hollywood. It serves actually as a way to see how discernment ministries troll the church. One of the best examples i have seen. This is not meant to protect Amazon. This is meant to demonstrate how we are no longer in Kansas. And as trite as that saying has become, this level of critique is extremely nuanced. And if interested, might be helpful to watch a few times. Because it will challenge our biases likely, big time.

. . . . .


FEATURED VIDEOS

1. Steve Lawson X Post Repenting

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

1 Hour 40 Minutes

2. Steve Lawson X Post Repenting 2

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

14 Minutes

3. Some Background Lawson/Macarthur Link -- A Litteral "Hireling" Housed in the Camp of: Discernment Ministry

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

16 Minutes

4. The Sharp Knife of Discernment & The Bully Troll Department

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

14 Minutes

. . . . .

Please feel welcome to comment. If you view is different that the reasons I have put this post up, please feel free to share. Something this radioactive is healthy to have differing views about. And might be helpful overall in general Christian body dynamic growth. Blessings.

 

[Andy C]

I'm not sure if this is the best section for this post. Please feel free to place this where it best might belong.

THEME
This is a brief case study. The first video is long. But if you have under 1 hour, please check out the last three videos for deep dive context. This post's aim is to serve in the arena of discernment. For me it was very challenging to discern if and/or how much gaslighting had become an ingredient in my evangelical experience. Please consider this a video log account of how discernment ministries today "can" be fake discernment. Built upon a house of cards. A tandem "posing" infrastructure and economy running along side the very themes of reality. An artifice empire.

CONTEXT
What you will find here is an evaluation of discernment in our era. The first 3 videos uncover relevant themes to notice in Steve Lawson's recent confession he posted on X. Most of the American Reformed world and evangelicalism itself will see Lawson's confession as honorable and respectable. Many videos have been made to attest to this. What this post seeks to genuinely explore is how Lawson's confession provides a huge key and social artifact exposing the nature of gaslighting in modern American Christian culture.

CONTENT
1. Steve Lawson X Post Repenting
This video is long, but well worth its discovery. This obscure but almost 300k subscriber YT account is some random guy that brings lovely clarity to things to think about. You can still get a tremendous amount of insight into sharpening discernment today, I believe, by skipping this video though. However, this video is a very rare use of simplicity as a way to discern. And well worth its length, i believe.

2. Steve Lawson X Post Repenting 2
This video compliments the 1st. But can also stand on its own. As a shortcut to the point, please check out this video. It underscores the nature of "Orthodoxy as Performing Art" in the church today. And serves, I believe, as a helpful reminder in keeping it real.

3. Some Background Lawson/Macarthur Link -- A Litteral "Hireling" Housed in the Camp of: Discernment Ministry
This video informs us that the premier discernment ministry circuit in protestant Christianity runs the grave risk of being a hireling. And demonstrates that God in His mercy has provided a literal reality in our faces of what is often seemingly a mere matter of subjective metaphor we might commonly use.

4. The Sharp Knife of Discernment & The Bully Troll Department
Although the other 3 videos might have a sense of controversy to them, this one is likely to take the cake. This video looks at the discernment ministry view upon Amazon's new series, The House of David. This video is not a defense for Hollywood. It serves actually as a way to see how discernment ministries troll the church. One of the best examples i have seen. This is not meant to protect Amazon. This is meant to demonstrate how we are no longer in Kansas. And as trite as that saying has become, this level of critique is extremely nuanced. And if interested, might be helpful to watch a few times. Because it will challenge our biases likely, big time.

. . . . .


FEATURED VIDEOS

1. Steve Lawson X Post Repenting

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

1 Hour 40 Minutes

2. Steve Lawson X Post Repenting 2

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

14 Minutes

3. Some Background Lawson/Macarthur Link -- A Litteral "Hireling" Housed in the Camp of: Discernment Ministry

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

16 Minutes

4. The Sharp Knife of Discernment & The Bully Troll Department

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

14 Minutes

. . . . .

Please feel welcome to comment. If you view is different that the reasons I have put this post up, please feel free to share. Something this radioactive is healthy to have differing views about. And might be helpful overall in general Christian body dynamic growth. Blessings.

Isn’t Lawson a leader in the reformed camp, a promoter of Calvinism?

 

[Margery]

Isn’t Lawson a leader in the reformed camp, a promoter of Calvinism?

Yes he is, and he recently stepped down, admitting to an adulterous affair that thankfully he realizes disqualifies him from any further ministry position.

Ligonier Ministries so he is most definitely a Calvinist and an associate of John MacArthur who is getting flak for not discerning that sin in his friend. That said, I think TCC's post is about discernment ministries???

@TCC maybe you can clarify what you are getting at? Are you suggesting discernment ministries are trolls?

Some might be misguided, over enthusiastic but most are not. Julie Roys, Todd Friel, and others like them are the only people who keep the lights shining on public ministries to encourage accountability. They take a lot of flak. Todd Friel is Reform theology, very Calvinist so he will go after Dispensational Theology at times. I don't subscribe to him, but when he has something to say about a ministry problem that I'm researching, I find him helpful but take him with a large grain of salt.

Over the years the discernment ministries come and go- they endure a lot of harsh criticism and yet over the years, they've been the only ones who deal with the mega pastors like for example the situation unfolding at Daystar under Joni Lamb who has unleashed a lot of unsavoury tactics to avoid Roys shining the light on her issues.

As for the new David's family show or whatever it is, if it's anything like the Chosen, the critics are right- The Chosen ended up being exposed as a Mormon effort to blur the lines of Christianity and confuse people who don't know their Bible on some key aspects.

I don't have time to watch these videos and right now I struggle a bit with brain fog, so I need help figuring out what you are getting at.

 

[TCC]

Correct @Andy C -- that is the world I came out of. As you can see from @Margery...welcome to my world. The delimma is a) there is great distortion in theology, and b) there is great maturity and insight in that group. Navigating those waters from afar is easier. Navigating them from the belly of...not so much.

The connection between Lawson and Friel is this = They use logic with the word to create a Truman Show like artifice of spiritual realtity. Now, in Todd's case @Margery, I refer to him as uncle Todd. Affectionaltey. I use to be thick in all their camp. At the mother ship. Macarthur's church. I've shared before here that God used that church in a mighty way in my life. And, there was a serious level of disfunction as well. Both exist. Both are real. Macarthur was powerfully used to help many smaller churches have some level of protection from government overreach in with COVID. Not the only one. But a very significant one. Can't say God did not use them. I've been a closet fan of Todd for years. But...

The main concern I have with not so much orange, or white, or black or blue man bad. My point is that in both Lawson's case and Friel's case, there are those in the faith, in the body of Christ, gifted enough to see and show what spiritual platitudes look like. And what "Orthodoxy as Performing Art" looks like. For me, its a godsend. Because although there is much to actually like about Todd, and Macarthur...and dare I say, Lawson, there are recognizeable platitudes to bring to clearer understanding. For example Lawson was the only voice I heard a few years back that got a verse of the Bible more sound than my own non-Calvinist pastor...and a 3rd of the commentaries online. I know this because 2/3rds of the commentaries online saw the way I saw (I believe, in the spirit). But there is a grand scheme in those waters. The art form of discernment as performing art. Lawson in effecting much of the body to buy into his postured sincerity as being a socially acceptable norm. And Friel, too argues (critiques the House of David) against a cultural phenomenon even he himself does not escape. Doing the very things he accuses the House of David does.

There is much to benefit from discernment ministries. Julies Roys puts out some incredible work. A lot of it is on Macarthur. And Friel is in the Macarthur matrix. On the Todd video, What Do You Meme YouTube channel articulated very clearly how Todd was doing the same things he claimed The House of David was doing. Only, the difference is that The House of David told you they were. Todd not only will not (that he is doing that). But he is fine with us drinking that cool aide--and believe it is discernment. We are not in Kansas anymore. And that is kind of what time it is.

So no @Margery I am not against discernment ministries. But as the spiritual man/woman evaluates everything, we live in a day where there is such a thing as Discernment Ministry Pop-Culture. And that is Todd. I don't post this to throw dirt on Todd or on Lawson or even Macarthur. I am merely pointing out where they have willingly become the matrix. And God and His word is quite a bit far more real than that. AND...we live in a day and age to see that articulated. Priceless.

I am blessed you guys might even venture here to whatever degree afforded by time. I consider this thread to go guite a bit beyond my famed long posts. Taking into the next county of being a library, a laboratory, a case study. Not a 23 minute to read post. But quite a bit of adventure of discovery over several hours. If no one does that, that is ok. A forum is for fellowship. Not so much a place to do deep research. But these videos laid out as such, are I guess a kind of miniature golf master class (using it figuratively...not that I am a master, but a posting in the style) of distinguishing the postmodern mode of Christendom from that which is the truth that sets free. 1 is a matrix platitude. The other, is the glorious notice of a living God that transcends Christian Pop-Culture discernment ministry mode, I reckon.

Do discernment ministries troll? Yes. Always? No. Some better than others? Yes. But at the end of the day a case can be made that the inmates have taken over the asylum. And although perhaps this could be said of any age, in ours, it seems to be accompanied by a transcending interests ripe for its age. Hope that makes some sense. Blessings.

 

[Margery]

My point is that in both Lawson's case and Friel's case, there are those in the faith, in the body of Christ, gifted enough to see and show what spiritual platitudes look like. And what "Orthodoxy as Performing Art" looks like. For me, its a godsend. Because although there is much to actually like about Todd, and Macarthur...and dare I say, Lawson, there are recognizeable platitudes to bring to clearer understanding.

I think I start to see where you are coming from.

So what you are saying is that you appreciate the discernment ministries pointing out the pitfalls in various ministries, things that you might not have noticed before.

That I totally agree with.

there are those in the faith, in the body of Christ, gifted enough to see and show what spiritual platitudes look like. And what "Orthodoxy as Performing Art" looks like.

I don't quite understand that, but I think you are saying that ministries fall into theatrical displays. Again, that is seen all over the theological landscape where performance matters more than substance and putting on a good light show and rock band makes most people satisfied that they've had some emotional experience similar to a good concert. They go away feeling a spiritual high that disintegrates because it wasn't rooted and grounded in the Bible, instead, its just emotional theatre.

I think you are saying discernment ministries help you spot these theatrical performances and discern Biblical teaching with or without theatrical displays.

I haven't a clue what Friel is saying about that new house of David show- I only just learned of it here a couple of days ago in another thread on that show. If he's doing what he accuses them of doing???? Don't get the reference. I'm probably the wrong one to talk because I have zero interest in the house of David stuff. I didn't like what I heard of the Chosen, and it sounds very similar.

At times Friel is very animated, - rather loud and obnoxious in his presentation, but I figure that's just his personal style of presenting things, haven't looked at it as theatre, partly because I so rarely click on one of his vids unless I'm hunting down evidence for or against some new teaching or ministry blowing thru the church. When I do go after his opinion, he could be wearing a clown costume lighting fireworks but if his material is sound, I will listen to him in spite of his delivery, in spite of his obvious Calvinism because usually (unless he's on a rant against non Calvinists) pretty good.

Now totally off topic, you sort of quoted a title of a book I have in my library called

The Inmates Are Running the Asylum: Thoughts On Following Jesus, Amish Romance, the Daniel Plan, the Tebow Effect, and the Odds of Finding Your Soul Mate by Stephen Altrogge ​

in which the Christian author shares his grumpy feelings in a rather hilarious way about Christianity versus "Christian Culture". He explains how pop culture Christianese style is diametrically opposed to Christianity, as the Bible outlines it. Written back in 2014, I got it soon after publication on my kindle and thoroughly enjoyed it. If I've interpreted your case correctly, you might also get a chuckle out of it, if it's even still in print. Thankfully everything USUALLY stays in print on the Kindle, although Amazon does delete some things for censorship purposes.

 

[TCC]

I think I start to see where you are coming from.

So what you are saying is that you appreciate the discernment ministries pointing out the pitfalls in various ministries, things that you might not have noticed before.

That I totally agree with.

I don't quite understand that, but I think you are saying that ministries fall into theatrical displays. Again, that is seen all over the theological landscape where performance matters more than substance and putting on a good light show and rock band makes most people satisfied that they've had some emotional experience similar to a good concert. They go away feeling a spiritual high that disintegrates because it wasn't rooted and grounded in the Bible, instead, its just emotional theatre.

I think you are saying discernment ministries help you spot these theatrical performances and discern Biblical teaching with or without theatrical displays.

I haven't a clue what Friel is saying about that new house of David show- I only just learned of it here a couple of days ago in another thread on that show. If he's doing what he accuses them of doing???? Don't get the reference. I'm probably the wrong one to talk because I have zero interest in the house of David stuff. I didn't like what I heard of the Chosen, and it sounds very similar.

At times Friel is very animated, - rather loud and obnoxious in his presentation, but I figure that's just his personal style of presenting things, haven't looked at it as theatre, partly because I so rarely click on one of his vids unless I'm hunting down evidence for or against some new teaching or ministry blowing thru the church. When I do go after his opinion, he could be wearing a clown costume lighting fireworks but if his material is sound, I will listen to him in spite of his delivery, in spite of his obvious Calvinism because usually (unless he's on a rant against non Calvinists) pretty good.

Now totally off topic, you sort of quoted a title of a book I have in my library called

The Inmates Are Running the Asylum: Thoughts On Following Jesus, Amish Romance, the Daniel Plan, the Tebow Effect, and the Odds of Finding Your Soul Mate by Stephen Altrogge ​

in which the Christian author shares his grumpy feelings in a rather hilarious way about Christianity versus "Christian Culture". He explains how pop culture Christianese style is diametrically opposed to Christianity, as the Bible outlines it. Written back in 2014, I got it soon after publication on my kindle and thoroughly enjoyed it. If I've interpreted your case correctly, you might also get a chuckle out of it, if it's even still in print. Thankfully everything USUALLY stays in print on the Kindle, although Amazon does delete some things for censorship purposes.

Thanks for your interest in response there Margery. I appreciate the effort. The best way to answer your questions is: Whatch the videos. If you did it would be clear. But I understand throwing 2 plus hours of video to hear me out is not exactly polite...lol. No worries. If you get a chance, its worth watching just one for your questions. The Todd one. It's only a half hour. I agree with What Do You Meme's evaluation because I come from Todd's world. I have seen it deep in its trenches. More than I cared to actually. But no rush. Just if you have time. For me Margery its not about the House of David either. For me, its about what is going on in the church.

On a sociological level, the church has always interested me. Some of it not so much. My reason for posting that video has really nothing to do with House of David at all. I didn't even know about it. For me, its not whether Todd's critique is on spot or not. Todd actually makes some reasonable observaions. The theater I am pointing to is not Todd's theatrics. Although I would understand why it comes across as such. I actually adore Todd's methodology in theatrics. Its corny. But its fun. That is actually probably the thing I like most about him. I have seen him reason with scripture before where I would see he has some soundness to him.

But what this video focuses on is how Orthodoxy (not mannerism) runs today as Performing Art. This is a tag line slated by Dr. Trueman when Josh Harris fell away from the faith. Trueman saw Josh as a very prolific conservative writer. But he also identified that in the reformed world, there does tend to be a pretense of "We are the arbitors of truth." Masking their ideologies in Christian speak and scripture verses. And that is the kind of theater I believe Todd engages in to a degree. And that is what What Do You Meme points out. And I think it is accurate because I may not have watched a ton of Todd, but I spent 25 years in his institution and his familiars. I know what they think and how they operate. So I would gauge my views on a life of experience with them. Being favorable to them in places even in contrast to the roughshod hurtful manner thay can at times operate in. Even so, I still might check out Todd from time to time. But aware of these things. It's just the culture we live in. And your mention of books would probably be something close to what I am saying. They sound intriguing for sure

So the theater I am speaking of is how the Reformed camp has re-engineered what Christian orthodoxy is to look like. It looks like them. Kind of like a lover of self application to who are in the church. And I don't point that out to throw dirt. It's just that in so doing, it highlights better discussions we can have that are not marginally potentially owned by some kind of matrix idealogy. But rather stimulates one another in the truth. What is actually "in scripture."

. . . . .

TO EXPAND JUST A BIT

If we look at a larger umbrella, counseling for example. The same condition exists in that discipline. Christian counseling has been impacted since the 90's by Nouthetic Counseling. It looks more Christian. It points a finger at psychology. Which is of course not bad. But it incerts itself as biblical. Yet at its core roots, its foundational assumption, is predicated on Covenant Theology. The one we find in deep Calvinism.

• 1. Works -- Adam had to work for salvation
• 2. Grace -- After the fall
• 3 Redemption -- God's Eternal Plan

This is the system of the Reformed Camp. They replace Catholic Edicts or Papal Buls with Confessions. Like the Westminster Confession. They don't view confessions on par with God's word. But they do read them back into God's word. And some of it is pretty dang strange, sister. But for brevity, lets just look at number 1. They believe that Adam existed in a covenant of works before the fall. That means that in order to save his own life he had to work to please God. Does that not sound strange or you? lol. And this is the basis of Noethic Counseling which is predominant in Chrsitian counseling worldwide. So we could say, Calvinism got into the Christian Counseling framework as some sects in American Reforemd thought do with infiltrating churches to make them over time become Calvinistic unawares (a growing trend). So I use this as an example of re-engineering biblical truth into reformed thought and counseling the world with it as though it were biblical truth. Posturing as Orthodox Biblical Thought. But really just operating as Orthodoxy as Performing Art in a plethora of churches worldwide.

I don't know if this helps or confuses. Sorry if it confuses. I know its another can of worms. But it is an example that demonstrates the breadth and seriousness of ideas of men creeping into the church serving as Orthodoxy. And at the end of the day, its just men that sound really biblical. But merely are the opinions of men. This is kind of why I would have my nomenclature of our age as the age of Laodicea. Because we operate the church by opinion in many places. As did the Laodiceians. And we have bought into it as Orthodoxy in our age and day. So yeah just pointing that out in general to hopefully provide fodder for ways to discern outside of opinion. If that makes sense? In any event, thanks so much for engaging. Really appreciate it dear sister. Blessings.

 

[Margery]

we operate the church by opinion in many places. As did the Laodiceians. And we have bought into it as Orthodoxy in our age and day

YES! It is one of the problems - each believer has to decide to follow Scripture and be a Berean to search the Scriptures to check and SEE if these teachings are grounded in the Bible.

Every believer, every denomination or group.

But it's easier to sit back and let the church tell you what to think instead of digging deep into the Word.

The study of the Word is a lifelong effort, that the Holy Spirit illuminates, but it needs that believer to open up the Bible and start reading for themselves.

 

[Everlasting Life]

YES! It is one of the problems - each believer has to decide to follow Scripture and be a Berean to search the Scriptures to check and SEE if these teachings are grounded in the Bible.

The study of the Word is a lifelong effort, that the Holy Spirit illuminates, but it needs that believer to open up the Bible and start reading for themselves.

As I was reading this thread, these thoughts were mulling through my mind.

While some Discernment ministries have been helpful (as a young Christian, wading through the enormous landscape of Christian material.... some very good) to help me identify the more subtle false 'teachings' I couldn't quite put my finger on why it was off, ultimately it was the Word of God that rang initial red bells for me.

The Holy Spirit is such an excellent teacher and helper in understanding God's Word. And protector. He's given me so many red alerts that I recognize quite quickly now His pausing me in the spirit before ingesting 'spiritual teachings' .

God's been faithful in answering prayers for discernment and God's protective care.

Plus, the more one reads His Word, the richer and more satisfying it gets. There's continuous spiritual treasures, sweet comfort, excellent direction, wisdom, guidance and well..... face to face interaction with the wonderful, Almighty of the universe.

 

[TCC]

YES! It is one of the problems - each believer has to decide to follow Scripture and be a Berean to search the Scriptures to check and SEE if these teachings are grounded in the Bible.

Every believer, every denomination or group.

But it's easier to sit back and let the church tell you what to think instead of digging deep into the Word.

The study of the Word is a lifelong effort, that the Holy Spirit illuminates, but it needs that believer to open up the Bible and start reading for themselves.

Amen Margery. I had a friend at the previous reformed church who was in leadership and noticed that whenever he went on vacation or did not come to Grace Community Church (GCC--John Macarthur's church) he found himself reading the word more. Its because GCC is so powerful in their studies, we kind of let them do that for us. And they know this. And they would scold congregants for doing that. On the other hand though, I would also see in that that GCC would see themselves as the most skilled in exegesis. And that is a sad state of the church. Even my current Calvinist friend that goes to that church noted Macarthur having some exegetical holes in his commentaries. "Large enough to drive a semi-truck through." And that is just the tip of that iceberg.

About a decade ago I went on a Cruise with Allister Begg. He is a very nice and gentle man. Always loved his preaching. He was about and of the Macarthur universe. But unfortunately he lately wrote a book and during that interview (within the last 1.5 years-ish...very recent) he said he told a grandmother to go to her grandson's transgender wedding and bring a gift. Which was very controversial.

As one, myself, holding controversial views, i can appreciate the unique approach. I am not entirely super against that idea if the gift is a bible as Begg suggested. I still would favor not, because marriage is an institution of God. And if you go you should stand and object if they still ask. But anyway, I can appreciate thinking outside the fundamentalist box. Where my concern with Allister Begg would be is in how he handled the pushback.

He did not issue a public reply. But he did preach a sermon that night in response to his congregation. And of course uploaded it to his Youtube channel. The problem is there, for me. Because what he did in that sermon is pout, be bratty, and distort the word of God to defend his position. So we have a national figure. A paragon of Evangelical love (his ministry transcended the reformed camp and became an evangelical darling staple). And in his reformed association, they consider being in leadership very highly. Almost Catholic like. To the degree Allister would be like our elder leader brother. And the example of what mature men are to grow to be about, by example. But the example he showed is how spoiled American leadership can be and pout like a bratt using the word of God to defend his ego publicly. That is not the mature adult i want to be about. Yet, either directly or tacitly...he is to degrees endorsed for his many years of faithful ministry.

Another sizeable youtube channel that is a GCC defender (whom i often disagree with) actually made a video calling for church discipline for what Allister did in that sermon. And i agree with him. THAT, does not belong in the pulpit. Nor in being an example of what being a Christian leader looks like. But he is one of our examples. Still. I mention this so you know so you know its not just me having an issue. Another who i often disagree with saw the same thing. A great supporter of Jmac. Yet, he saw it. Its not rocket science. Its just that we have been somewhat conditioned by a generation of yuppie like leadership in the Discernment Ministry church.

. . . . .

So here is a short video i add. lol. I know...R E A L L Y ? Yes but i will mark it for you. From 8:18 to 9:08 -- reducing it to less than a minute In this clip Carl Hargrove (GCC Elder) affirms suspicion of Lawson's confession being genuine. Because he has not asked for forgiveness from the girl or her family. But he certainly has "professionally," to the reformed fan base and twitter. See? My point is that we have a condition in this country where even those who proclaim themselves as discernment ministries, are not great examples. We live in a day where Orthodoxy as Performing Art is bigger than simply being good examples with integrity. And the evangelical world eats it up like candy.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

If anyone were to see this and then see my first 3 videos posted...it would become extremely eye opening...I believe.

. . . . .

Unfortunately there are myriads of videos and articles where the churched are responding to Lawson's repentance as though it were authentic. Continuing the proliferation of artificial reality. And defending the matrix.

So yes i agree Margery...each person should study for themselves. But today, discernment leadership is not just neutered, but gaslighting America. And that may be a lot of things. But "discernment?" it is not.

Blessings.

 

[mattfivefour]

So yes i agree Margery...each person should study for themselves. But today, discernment leadership is not just neutered, but gaslighting America. And that may be a lot of things. But "discernment?" it is not.

100 percent right!

AlWhile some Discernment ministries have been helpful (as a young Christian, wading through the enormous landscape of Christian material.... some very good) to help me identify the more subtle false 'teachings' I couldn't quite put my finger on why it was off, ultimately it was the Word of God that rang initial red bells for me.

The Holy Spirit is such an excellent teacher and helper in understanding God's Word. And protector. He's given me so many red alerts that I recognize quite quickly now His pausing me in the spirit before ingesting 'spiritual teachings' .

God's been faithful in answering prayers for discernment and God's protective care.

Plus, the more one reads His Word, the richer and more satisfying it gets. There's continuous spiritual treasures, sweet comfort, excellent direction, wisdom, guidance and well..... face to face interaction with the wonderful, Almighty of the universe.

Absolutely correct!

 

[TCC]

As I was reading this thread, these thoughts were mulling through my mind.

While some Discernment ministries have been helpful (as a young Christian, wading through the enormous landscape of Christian material.... some very good) to help me identify the more subtle false 'teachings' I couldn't quite put my finger on why it was off, ultimately it was the Word of God that rang initial red bells for me.

The Holy Spirit is such an excellent teacher and helper in understanding God's Word. And protector. He's given me so many red alerts that I recognize quite quickly now His pausing me in the spirit before ingesting 'spiritual teachings' .

God's been faithful in answering prayers for discernment and God's protective care.

Plus, the more one reads His Word, the richer and more satisfying it gets. There's continuous spiritual treasures, sweet comfort, excellent direction, wisdom, guidance and well..... face to face interaction with the wonderful, Almighty of the universe.

Amen Everlasting. I remember when I was into Ravi Zacharias. After a while i did some research on him and it just seemed odd that John Macarthur actually accepted to speak along side Ravi at an event. It made me wonder why Jmac would not have sounder judgement as being touted a discerner. There was certainly enough controversy out there on Ravi at that time. But the way these ministries kind of work is that they whet the finger, and catch which direction the public awareness is blowing. If Ravi had not been "majorly" accruing not being above reproach, then Jmac could borrow his audience following too. Its like a network. But me, being a rogue person, I knew batter than he not to join speaking engagements with Ravi. But if you gain publicly and not suffer for borrowing other's clout...eh...go for it. Keeping in mind, that whetting the finger (like taking polls to see if it is safe to go outside...and "wise" to be involved in this or that), are marketing strategies done by profesionaly Christian discernment leaders poised as being lions, fearless, needing a bullet-proof pulpit because they are so courageous. Something perhaps that would be a good showcase tour at Universal Studios theme park.

Way before even that, I came across something from Ravi. A book he wrote about discernment. And in it he included a section on praising the Midrash approach to God's word. Which is basically to allegorize it, and find gnostic hidden codes within it. And i wondered why Ravi's publishers would sell a book like that. And it was expensive. So i share in your notion that the spirit does prompt. Because alarms were going off like crazy way back then. It made me wonder what the heck is going on with these famous preachers. Interested in how their "example" to live might look like. Blessings.

 

[Everlasting Life]

I had a friend who was neighbors with a popular Christian author. In the course of conversation it came out this author was not a believer at all. Rather the author discovered the major cash cow the Christian audience held. So, the author published 'christianized' books and became extrordinarily wealthy.

While there are good authors/teachers/pastors of whom God is indeed working through, I take extreme caution, making the Bible my mostly read book.

 

[Margery]

I had a friend who was neighbors with a popular Christian author. In the course of conversation it came out this author was not a believer at all. Rather the author discovered the major cash cow the Christian audience held. So, the author published 'christianized' books and became extrordinarily wealthy.

While there are good authors/teachers/pastors of whom God is indeed working through, I take extreme caution, making the Bible my mostly read book.

WOW and YES!!