The beast system in its infancy.

[Shinobi]

There's a lot of bad folks being arrested due to these cams. Stolen cars, kidnappers, people with warrants. So some good is coming from it. But no, I do not like the tracking.

Oh absolutely there is the upside to it in law enforcement when that is actually used as originally designed. But looking at just the US how many people have been arrested for felony crimes only to be released and lost as they move around and hide out? The US is not the only place that is happening. Then there is the other side where many innocent people who may have cracked a joke that some how offended some one else that that person was arrested for what is now called a hate crime. Technology, like guns, or any tool that can cause harm is neither bad or good but, the person who wields it is bad or good. The heart of man as Jesus told us is increasingly turning colder and colder. There in lies the root of the problem.

 

[Shinobi]

Yes, there could be a tracking element added, but we cant say that with certainty. Will there even be a need to track all those who willingly took the MOB?
What we do know are countless tribulation saints will survive to the end of the 7 year tribulation.

Most assuredly there will be Tribulation saints that survive in spite of the MOB because they refused it. But we are still talking about a human manned system where Joe Cop doing his job will arrest someone for not having that mark if he comes across them. It will be the law and if Joe Cop has the mark of the beast which he will otherwise he will not be Joe Cop because he would not be able to hold a job will likely gladly arrest all he finds because in his mind they are bad people. The need for tracking is being established even now by combining data sets from every available source to compile profiles on each individual. Now some would say what is the purpose for doing that. Well there are several. Mostly now is to put ads in front of your face to hopefully entice you to buy something. But now consider the movie Minority Report and the fictional pre-crime police. To know if someone is likely to commit a crime their mental state, their long term behavioral patterns all need to be assessed. I mean we all do it to some degree. We see someone on the street, our Spidey senses go off and we observer their behavior how they are acting to determine should we turn around, duck into some place safe, what ever. We as individuals do that all the time already. So how far fetched is it to see a world wide government doing the very same thing with equipment that monitors us 24/7/365? Barring those gone in the Rapture, those left behind will need to be sorted out. Some will by their life style jump all over getting the mark of the beast. Others not so much. It is the others that they want to know about to find them quickly and easily.

So like me, Satan is a created being, not having omniscience, being omnipotent or omnipresence, he will have to rely on the current technology and human agents to do that for him. With that in mind it is easier to see how current technology is 1) growing and improving at a rapid pace and 2) why it even seems to exist. Satan needs it to appear to be god otherwise people will not be willing to worship him other than say entertainment type worship that happens with well known entertainers. I suspect Satan is looking for something much deeper to satisfy his ego.

It is just not reasonable to see all that has been developed not being put to use in the Tribulation period for not just Satan but for his human agents to use on his behalf.

 

[Shinobi]

The fact that a tracking system would be used says a lot about satan's limitations.
As much as satan wants to be "like God", he cant, and never will be.
God is Omniscient, All knowing.
Satan will enter The Antichrist but due to satan not being all knowing, a tracking system will be needed so The Antichrist will know who has taken the mark and who has not.

I believe you have nailed it. The only thing extra that I see is humans will be a part of Satan's system and they being even lower will need the aid of modern technology to fulfill their assigned task be it cop, store clerk, pedestrian on the street. The ability to determine if some one is marked or not will be required other wise how will Satan's human agents know?

 

[Andy C]

Most assuredly there will be Tribulation saints that survive in spite of the MOB because they refused it. But we are still talking about a human manned system where Joe Cop doing his job will arrest someone for not having that mark if he comes across them. It will be the law and if Joe Cop has the mark of the beast which he will otherwise he will not be Joe Cop because he would not be able to hold a job will likely gladly arrest all he finds because in his mind they are bad people. The need for tracking is being established even now by combining data sets from every available source to compile profiles on each individual. Now some would say what is the purpose for doing that. Well there are several. Mostly now is to put ads in front of your face to hopefully entice you to buy something. But now consider the movie Minority Report and the fictional pre-crime police. To know if someone is likely to commit a crime their mental state, their long term behavioral patterns all need to be assessed. I mean we all do it to some degree. We see someone on the street, our Spidey senses go off and we observer their behavior how they are acting to determine should we turn around, duck into some place safe, what ever. We as individuals do that all the time already. So how far fetched is it to see a world wide government doing the very same thing with equipment that monitors us 24/7/365? Barring those gone in the Rapture, those left behind will need to be sorted out. Some will by their life style jump all over getting the mark of the beast. Others not so much. It is the others that they want to know about to find them quickly and easily.

So like me, Satan is a created being, not having omniscience, being omnipotent or omnipresence, he will have to rely on the current technology and human agents to do that for him. With that in mind it is easier to see how current technology is 1) growing and improving at a rapid pace and 2) why it even seems to exist. Satan needs it to appear to be god otherwise people will not be willing to worship him other than say entertainment type worship that happens with well known entertainers. I suspect Satan is looking for something much deeper to satisfy his ego.

It is just not reasonable to see all that has been developed not being put to use in the Tribulation period for not just Satan but for his human agents to use on his behalf.

I never stated the current systems available wont be used, just that there are alternative ways to ensure everyone has a MOB to buy and sell.

I think many have the tendency to view the future tribulation period as if life will be very similar to today. Just because tech is being built now, does not mean that is what beast will use. Think of all the tech giants out there, and the massive amount of “geek squads” they have manning the systems. How many will depart in the rapture, and how many will be killed during the first half of the tribulation. With a likely nuke exchange during the seal judgements, how much tech will survive?

Im just mostly thinking out loud, and not assuming what we think we know now will be ultimately part of the beast system.

 

[Shinobi]

I never stated the current systems available wont be used, just that there are alternative ways to ensure everyone has a MOB to buy and sell.

I think many have the tendency to view the future tribulation period as if life will be very similar to today. Just because tech is being built now, does not mean that is what beast will use. Think of all the tech giants out there, and the massive amount of “geek squads” they have manning the systems. How many will depart in the rapture, and how many will be killed during the first half of the tribulation. With a likely nuke exchange during the seal judgements, how much tech will survive?

Im just mostly thinking out loud, and not assuming what we think we know now will be ultimately part of the beast system.

I get what you are saying. But when I think about the possibility of a nuke exchange I don't think it will necessary be global. Also since destruction of military forces is the prime goal and military being hardened even now against EMPs I am suspecting much lower detonations which will result in more regional and local EMP thus leaving things like the internet still functional to a greater degree than a world wide nuclear exchange.

To my way of thinking, it makes no sense to see all this technology developed and expanded and it become useless in the Tribulation period. So much has been invested in it for it not to serve a big purpose in the Tribulation period. Now given information provided in Revelation as well as other prophetic scripture the descriptions given are now sounding more and more like technology of some sort. For instance there are several description surround the locust of the Tribulation period. The most prominent one comes from Rev. 9:6 where they see to have faces like man, arrayed like horses for battle, crowns that appear to be gold, and hair like that of a woman, and the sound like many chariots. Since the time of the Vietnam war many see the common combat helicopter as filling that role. Then there is in Rev 9:6 as well that men will seek death because of the locust and it will be denied them for a time. Finally the description of locust swarms to a magnitude to block out the sun now seems to indicate drones of all sizes, which can look as described above, sound in large numbers as above. So it makes no sense that all the technology we see now is not for the time of the Tribulation period. That of course is my take on it. In my life I have watched things come into being only to be quickly discarded because they were not as useful as first thought. Then other things have come into being and then further developed and actually made better, stronger, and smaller as to actually fulfill prophecy. Human nature being what it is, I cannot see the wealthy spending loads of money on things that will not make them wealthier and more powerful, two key features of the human agency likely used by Satan in the Tribulation period. In short why build if you are not going to use it.

Now how it will all work out none of those going up in the Rapture or still alive will understand if fully on this side of the Rapture. Just looking to history and basic human nature in a fallen world.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Im just mostly thinking out loud, and not assuming what we think we know now will be ultimately part of the beast system.

Amen to that.

 

[Andy C]

Now given information provided in Revelation as well as other prophetic scripture the descriptions given are now sounding more and more like technology of some sort. For instance there are several description surround the locust of the Tribulation period. The most prominent one comes from Rev. 9:6 where they see to have faces like man, arrayed like horses for battle, crowns that appear to be gold, and hair like that of a woman, and the sound like many chariots. Since the time of the Vietnam war many see the common combat helicopter as filling that role

Thats a big assumption in thinking that those creatures are really helicopters or drones. John could of easily stated they were some kind of flying contraption if they were not actual locusts. I dont like to limit in what God can create and turn loose during the tribulation. I will go with Johns description of what he saw, and also remember he was inspired by the Holy Spirit in what he wrote.

 

[1LoverofGod]

I get what you are saying. But when I think about the possibility of a nuke exchange I don't think it will necessary be global. Also since destruction of military forces is the prime goal and military being hardened even now against EMPs I am suspecting much lower detonations which will result in more regional and local EMP thus leaving things like the internet still functional to a greater degree than a world wide nuclear exchange.

To my way of thinking, it makes no sense to see all this technology developed and expanded and it become useless in the Tribulation period. So much has been invested in it for it not to serve a big purpose in the Tribulation period. Now given information provided in Revelation as well as other prophetic scripture the descriptions given are now sounding more and more like technology of some sort. For instance there are several description surround the locust of the Tribulation period. The most prominent one comes from Rev. 9:6 where they see to have faces like man, arrayed like horses for battle, crowns that appear to be gold, and hair like that of a woman, and the sound like many chariots. Since the time of the Vietnam war many see the common combat helicopter as filling that role. Then there is in Rev 9:6 as well that men will seek death because of the locust and it will be denied them for a time. Finally the description of locust swarms to a magnitude to block out the sun now seems to indicate drones of all sizes, which can look as described above, sound in large numbers as above. So it makes no sense that all the technology we see now is not for the time of the Tribulation period. That of course is my take on it. In my life I have watched things come into being only to be quickly discarded because they were not as useful as first thought. Then other things have come into being and then further developed and actually made better, stronger, and smaller as to actually fulfill prophecy. Human nature being what it is, I cannot see the wealthy spending loads of money on things that will not make them wealthier and more powerful, two key features of the human agency likely used by Satan in the Tribulation period. In short why build if you are not going to use it.

Now how it will all work out none of those going up in the Rapture or still alive will understand if fully on this side of the Rapture. Just looking to history and basic human nature in a fallen world.

I tend to agree with this view regarding the judgement of locusts unleashed upon Christ rejecting humans.......


(Revelation 9:2-6) Locusts from the bottomless pit.

And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

a. Out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth: These are obviously not natural locusts. They avoid plants and attack men like scorpions attack. They are “A visual representation of the hordes of demons loosed upon the earth.” (Walvoord)

i. The idea is simply that as part of the judgment of the great tribulation, God will allow demonic hordes, previously imprisoned, to descend upon the earth like a swarm of destructive locusts.

Study Guide for Revelation 9 by David Guzik

David Guzik :: Study Guide for Revelation 9

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Shinobi]

Thats a big assumption in thinking that those creatures are really helicopters or drones. John could of easily stated they were some kind of flying contraption if they were not actual locusts. I dont like to limit in what God can create and turn loose during the tribulation. I will go with Johns description of what he saw, and also remember he was inspired by the Holy Spirit in what he wrote.

I get that but remember John was looking to the future and seeing things that didn't likely exist in his time. That being the case his description is made in things he knew and understand to describe as best as he can. When I got saved and the first time I read that description of the locust I immediately thought of helicopter specifically Huey helicopters. The overall shape is not that far from what a horse looks like and being made of metal they look like a horse prepared for battle. Medieval horses were often cover with body armor that left only their lower legs exposed so they could run. Look at the front of one, two large windshield over a bulbous lookin lower nose/mount region, the face of a man, the crown on their head could well describe the several antennas above the cockpit. And their hair was like that of women. If you have ever seen a helicopter doing crop dusting the spray come off the dispersement polls looks like long flowing hair in the wind. Then there are the teeth like that of lions, the front of the two skids bend upwards and appear like the lower jaw of a large cat. Then there are the breast plates of iron. Well a Huey is made of metal all the way around where a horse arrayed for battle had no under the body armor. So I am guessing the idea of locust meant John saw them from ground level below as they flew over. Then the beat of their wings sounding like the roar of many horses running into battle. That would be very loud and if you have ever heard the sound of a Huey coming in your direction it is insanely loud and it comes with the thumps not to different than the sounds of hooves running. Finally their tails were like that of scorpions. The tail boom on a UH-1 goes back and then up like a scorpion getting ready to strike. One last part was their stings were in their tails. That one is difficult but again looking back at the idea of a helicopter as a crop duster the spray of say a bio weapon would appear to be coming from the back as they made passes or the appearance of door gunners shooting out and around as the tracer rounds go out would also appear to go out the back as well. Another options would be rocket pods. The eshaust as the rocket motor fires up is blown back appearing to start in the back and not on the side but he rocket would appear to look like a stinger. Heck they even have rockets and missile called Stingers in this day and age.

At first I was stumped on much of the description of things in Revelation until I realized John was seeing far into the future from his time. He would not ever know what a helicopter was or a tank or any modern day war equipment was called. So what does he do? He describes what he sees in the only things he knows. No not an exact description but given the limit of his time's war fighting ability he does the best he can. I mean where looking at Rev 6:13 we have "
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." We now know it will not be literal stars but sounds like a massive meteor shower. The word meteor did not exist until around 1590s. So bright falling objects were thought to be what they saw every nights stars falling from the heavens. I could go on but I hope you understand my point. John was looking some 2000 years into the future and seeing things he could not explain as they were so he was left to explain them in terms he understood at that time.

I guess I am just one who is more practical in his views about what Revelation describes compared to what exist now and how John would not have understood what he was seeing as it did not exist for almost another 2000 years.

 

[Shinobi]

I'm just mostly thinking out loud, and not assuming what we think we know now will be ultimately part of the beast system.

While we can't know all of it we can use our God given reason to look at what exist now and see how in many ways it will work extremely well in what is described. For instance the imagery used in the TV show "Person of Interest," each person or car is marked by some kind of square or round location marker that follows them as they move is what the images are being shown coming from the Flock camera systems when displayed on computer screens. Consider the enormous amounts spent on such technology, as well computers, the internet, and the many programs that run it all and how so much of those programs is not being turned into surveillance and the fact that basic accounting such as a bank or store uses is inherently a tracking model of transactions and what they were for and who made them, it just seems reasonable that most of that will come to play in the Tribulation period. People don't spend money on things that don't work. They invest in things that give the returns they can use. Lets look at the likes of UPS, FedEx, or any airline. They do not spend millions on their fleets of trucks and planes only to take them immediately to the junk yard or crash the planes on the first flight. No they spend that money to make more money including the very costly maintenance to keep all that operational. So with all the businesses in the world that utilize modern technology and the inherent ability to track via accounting and now ever growing security concerns cameras it make no sense all that came into existence to be tossed out the window when the Tribulation starts.

Even the Lord in Isaiah 1:18 says, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD." We are given our mental faculties to be used not tossed aside. If not why did the Lord say what He said. We are made in the image of God. God is not a robot but an intelligent being. We are given a level of intelligence as well. Using that God given intelligence and looking at prophetic scripture and comparing it to what exist today it is not a far fetched idea to see all the work put into modern technology will come into play in the Tribulation period. Otherwise why did we not see it a thousand years earlier. It was not needed yet is my way of thinking. But all of it is needed now to match what scripture tells us is coming.

I am not discounting Gods ability at all. If he chooses to make some of what happens in the Tribulation miraculous I fully expect he will do as He chooses. But as we see in Daniel 12:4, “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased,” much of what was written Daniels time and forward to Johns time on the island of Patmos was not intended to make sense until the time of the end when knowledge had increased and boy has it ever increased. Does that mean we take everything in scripture only at face value? No of course not. The many styles of writing from the poetic to the narrative to wisdom, parables, and so on all point to we can't just take all of scripture at face value. We first have to understand what style of writing we are reading, is it narrative or is it say parable. If it is narrative we understand it to be historical. But if it is a parable we don't take it to mean what is written literally what happened.

Anyway, each to his or her own opinion. Mine is as I have said here.

 

[Andy C]

it make no sense all that came into existence to be tossed out the window when the Tribulation starts.

Thinking like someone living in the now, not in the sheer decimation that will happen in the first 3.5 years of the tribulation.

Half the left behind population dying in a relatively short timeframe can alter things as they are now. Were talking about 2-4 billion dead.

The good news - We the church may never know what system is being used because we will be long gone.

Its always interesting to speculate.